Look at it. Just look at it. Now imagine what it would be like to drive it. If the Cadillac Ciel Concept had four doors and handles, this would be what it would look like. We’d say it looks ready for production.
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The A&S needs to be toned down a bit from the Ciel concept. The ULS can't be too showy in that it alienates itself from buyers.
Showy? Is that a problem we need to worry about for Cadillac? Are we talking about Buick?
This flagship is going to sell less than the volt, there no need to worry about alienating buyers, in fact, I bet the 7er and s class club is going to flock to the ULS / FTS becuase it such unique and brash styling, its going to get noticed and that what people want their 100k car to be like.
"its going to get noticed and that what people want their 100k car to be like"
Nope. If you have $100K car, you don't want something that stands out as badly as a yellow Integra in a Pep Boys parking lot.
Buyers in this segment want subtlety, not flash. If they want flash, they'll get a Lamborghini.
Subtlety? I just saw a new 7er in a parking lot the other day, your eyes were immediately drawn to it, dwarfing all the other cars around it, I wouldnt call that subtely. There not going to get a lambo because it only holds two people, its uncomfortable as a daily driver and believe it or not, some people even think its ugly. And I think the cheapest Lambo is 300k.
i get what you are trying to say Grawdaddy, but if people didn't want to be noticed in their 100 thousand dollar cars then Ferraris, Lambos and the like would not exist. [if anything the looks HAVE to justify the price, like the Bugatti Veyron, or EB110]
has anyone here stood next to or seen a Bentley Red label. the car is HUGE, there is nothing subtle about a 6000lbs sedan with a huge meshed grill and twin turbo 6+L v8 under hood. a Rolls Royce Phaeton is even worse. i'm not even gonna talk about the Phantom (a brushed aluminum rear deck and hood?! REALLY?!? or how about that optional wooden rear deck!) subtle is definitely not the name of the game in that stratospheric realm.
but "elegance and class" is; a well designed, cost is no option object of any kinds commands attention. it's just human nature. people are attracted to "pretty things".
No one cross shopping a 7 series, S class, A8, or LS 460 wants to look like "a yellow Integra in a Pep Boys parking lot" but that's pretty hard to do with the aforementioned cars. They do buy them to get noticed though, if in a "subtle" way as in, oh that guy has made it. Bringing a fresh, bold to option to that crew will be infinitely better than trying to slyly sneak into the club with something like a Hyundai Equus. I don't know about where you guys are, but in the north east - country clubs, yacht clubs, beach houses, places with wealth warrant a certain level of composure (red or black Ferrari, certainly never yellow or green Lambo) but that doesn't mean they don't look for style, and showing off money and getting noticed is part of the territory. Trying to fall into the rotation of beamer benz or bentley (as in the parking lot, not as in the song) isn't going to be easy and tip toeing with a boring pared down design won't cut it. People got tired of the S class vs. 7 series duel after a while and wanted something different. Audi has done well picking off some of those shoppers, and Cadillac could be right in there with a Ciel sedan.
i disagree, if anything, the Ciel (stupid name by the way) needs to remain as close to the concept as possible. when u have a Full-size Caddy that gets universal praise on Jalopnik [of all sites] as one of the most beautiful concepts sedans ever; then u have a true hit on your hands. and for those who don't know, Jalopnik is predominately young and anti GM.
GM's main failing for roughly 20 years was an acute lack of styling leadership. "toning down" great concepts is not the direction a styling and design leader takes.
Yes, the Ciel must be extremely close to the concept if it is going to be successful.
I think GMs main failing for roughly 20 years was that their cars were falling apart, but yes, to be a design leader, especially for a car like a Caddy flagship, "toning down" is not the way to go.
lol, I'd argue that from 1992- now, there are far more GM design and execution duds than unreliable ones.
Being old enough to experience plenty of GM cars from the "malaise era" through now, I'd say the legendary unreliability of American cars is more myth than fact. Uninspiring? Yep, poorly executed, you bet! But unreliable heaps just waiting to leave you stranded on the side of the road? Not really. In fact more often than not you WISHED it would just die!
GM's main fault and one that keeps so many of those who grew up driving Japanese and European cars form crossing over, or intuitively hating on US cars altogether, is an acute lack of pride and passion in the way that American car makers design, and execute their cars. Never mind the persistent and obvious habit of designing and engineering to a price rather than a standard.
"more myth than fact" , Really?
Then why does my 2003 cavalier with 60k miles need/needed more work than my 1990 Lexus with 250k miles?
I could give you endless examples, but trust me, 90s american cars needed more work to keep running than 90s japanese ones. If youve owned several cars from GM and Toyota than you'd know what I was talking about.
Yes, im not saying that they literally "their cars were falling apart", and GM engines have mostly been solid, even their v4 ones, but things like window regulators, switches, interior trim, motor mounts, weird noises, vibration, overheating, these things fall apart regularly in my experiance with 90s american cars and do not do so on their japanese counterparts.
Design wise, I dont see any glaring design faults GM made over the past 20 years other than maybe the Aztec/Rendezvous. But yes, designed to price has been a major fault of american automakers.
Don't know, all I know is I've owned a 1990 legend coupe that had a ha it of flooding it's distributed with oil at 45000 miles. It also ate up cv joints and had an armrest that fell off if u slammed the door to hard. Oh the tranny wouldn't stay in 3rd gear after I went over 100mph one nite. In Japan I had a Lexus coupe with 50000miles on it with ignition gremlins. It would sputter and shut off from time to time unless u disconnected the igniter and. Ranked it over. Then once restarted it was good, for a few days, or weeks.
My parents owned a 1978 Toyota Corona. They kept it for 165 thousand miles. It was a good car, except for when the starter started backing out and I had to slip under the car as a kid and push it back into the mount, Cus u know it wouldn't start otherwise.
My dads Benz gets a pass for its craptacular performance because it was reliable, it just smoked like a an old steam ship because of bad rings.
I got more " issues" stories about our civic sedan, Hyundai Sonata, oh and Chevy Celebrity, Chrysler LHS, and so on.
My point, ALL cars from ALL manufactures have issues (these days Volkswagons/ Audis seem the worse) considering all the CTS from the 60s to today that I've had the pleasure of fixing modding or just shaking my head while staring confused at, I don't remember Domestic. Are being any worse.
Excuse typos my iphone's spell chk swears it knows what I'm trying to say better than I do!
Well it all comes down to personal experiance, no automakers perfect, but I still dont think design was the main reason for GM's fall. I think the main reason was their "culture" , labor deals, inefficiency and just plain stupidity, over reliance on trucks, and not the actual cars themselves. But thats a different topic.
Yes, I hate the iphone spelling dictatorship. They dont even have the option of turning it off!
On the I phone If you want to turn off the auto correction or check spelling.
GO TO SETTINGS
TAP GENERAL
SCROLL DOWN
TAP KEYBOARD
Now you can shut off auto- correction and or check spelling.
Awesome, Thanks!
I feel ya, and for the record I agree with everything u pointed out when it comes to GMs past failures. My point about "not leading in design" was directed at the overall effort and execution of GM products in the past, not "styling" or looks.
@ Grawdaddy
You know I got much Luv for you Bro but this time I got to go with jzEllis(on Some Points) and Babersher on this, why tone it down at all, this is what a FlagShip is suppose to be.....In Your Face Drop Dead Gorgeous!! But, tho I agree that it Should b on par with the Concept........What's wrong with having both 2 and 4 door Models, give the Customer Choice and let them decide, my take is that they would have 2 Mega Hits on their hands, not a Bad Situation to have........Also jzEllis, nothing Stupid about the Name, but if you got Suggestions, give us a list of Names you would prefer so we can see what you working with!! So what you guys think about the 2 and 4 door Choice??? :)
Tony, I agree fully. 2 and 4 door options are a MUST. And while they're are at it why not a 2 and 4 door hard top convertible as well!
As for my opinion on the name, I just feel like it's not grand enough. When I hear Ciel, I think economy, low class. Honestly it sounds more like the name of an entry level car. Cadillac has a lot of Classy names that are more than appropriate for such a grand throwback of a car [when Cadillacs were CADILLACS] like Birritz, DeElegance, LaSalle, Fleetwood, or how about bringing back the "series" designations? Like say 'Series 62', or '16 or 12' (the latter could have a V16, or V12 engines).
Cadillac can't afford to not do it BIG if this is to be a successful top of the line car. If there is a car where the 'bottom line' should not be a main concern this is it. GM needs to shoot for the stars. Right now there is no single GM product that really shows what GM is truly capable of - a car that displays everything great about GM styling, performance AND heritage. GM needs a car that is the embodiment of GM passion from 1908 to the present.
ME GUSTA!!! This is a gorgeous car. but I don't know if this should be the 7-series fighter everyone is looking for.Ii think this should be further up then the 7-series. something like oh I don't know the Phantom. I say for the 7-series fighter make a car that looks like the Sixteen just with a bit shorter of a hood.
JzEllis, I like the last paragraph on your last post, it's right on, overall execution, you nailed it. Honestly I wish I could say I like the Ciel, but I don't... The land yacht era has left us, and from what I can tell the Ciel speaks to that era, not to a 7 series competitor. The 7 series is a well oiled machine with a great reputation, at this stage should caddy elevate itself closer to a Bentley with its flagship, I wouldn't call Bentlys land yachts either. Anyway who is the flagships direct competition to me this is the question we should be asking...
your comment about the "land yacht era" is exactly the problem US automakers struggle so hard with when trying to break back into the upper realm of Luxury cars.
the 7series, S class, and Bentley, and Rolls were no where near as luxurious powerful, or even reliable as an AVERAGE Big Buick, Caddy, Olds, Lincoln, or Chrysler, from the late 40s to early 70s. it can be argued in the case of BMW and Mercedes, that they didn't even pick up steam with good across the board "luxury cars" till the late 70s-mid 80s.
infact, a top of the line GM, Chrysler or Lincoln was easily the equal of anything from Europe in the luxury class till the mid 70s. things like AC, pwr windows, seats, automatic headlights, wipers, and even weather sensing folding roofs were standard on Cadillacs LONG before Mercedes, BMW (who was barely making motorcycles and Isettas at the time) or even Rolls Royce and Bently even thought of such features.
this is not to say foreign luxury cars sucked. just that US luxury cars have fallen THAT far. Mercedes in the 50s was an engineering Juggernaut. but even they introduced wrap around windows and tail fins because of Cadillacs dominance in design. US Luxury cars used to set the pace! the European became more luxurious in their mainstream offerings because of what was passing as standard in US cars of the past.
in my opinion if you want to lead a segment, you don't look at what the next guy is doing and say" we should do what he's doing" you look at the next guy and say " well that's nice, but we can do that and THIS as well! you force them to follow you, you reinvent the game altogether. and that's what Cadillac needs to do if it wants to remain relevant, and it better do it if it wants to regain what it had in the past!
as a car buff, it always amazes me how the US industry went from absolutely dominating the automotive landscape for nearly 70 straight years to playing catch up and "we should have a this and that fighter too" mentality of today. when the best you can do is look at what the other guy is doing and react to that, you are playing second fiddle, NOT leading.
a reactive game plan may as well be no game plan.
Riddle me this Batman: "When is a Land Yacht Not a Land Yacht"? Answer: When it's Extremely Well Executed!!!! Now jzEllis and I may not agree on the Name(Tho he Got Good Alternatives), I do agree with him about Execution, I bet you with GM's Innovative Magnetic Ride Control and other Segment Leading Enhancements that the Ciel would run around the Nürburgring like an ATS that OD on Steroids and still give you the Excellent Refined Driving Experience that Caddy is accustom to!!! Plus, you fill it with All the Tech that Caddy is putting into the XTS and ATS, again, with even more Enhancements and the Gorgeous Italian Olive Wood, V Series and the Hardtop Convertible 2 and 4 Door which jzEllis added to my Option List and you got yourself Not Only a True Beast of a Luxury Car but you will have that Incredible beyond 7 Series and Close if not beyond the Bentley you referred to, and not Following the Competition, but Leading it into a Brand New Era that we should Dominate.........That's how you do it and Why the Ciel or Whatever Name they decide to give Must be Made!!!!
Tony, is it me or is what passes for "luxury" these days more a by product of good engineering and design. For instance a high end Bently or Rolls only claim to fame is expensive materials and hand made assembly ( the latter of which IS NOT something to brag about when Ferarri Italias and Lambos regularly burn themselves to the ground on a whim.)
But really, other than exclusitivty and pompusness there really isn't any true luxury there. What happened to pampering the occupants? What happened to vault like quitenss is the cabin at speed. Why not privacy Curtins which retract at the push of a button, or standard reclining/messaging rear seats?
How about integrated WiFi? If I paid $100,000 for a land cruiser I'd love to be able to surf the web or have video conferences as I'm chauffeured about in "luxury".
Like u said Tony, why can't the same car that pulls a respectable time at nurburg not ride down a pothole infested blvd like a it's floating on air? We have the technology! Cadillacs used own the crown when it came to a smooth ride, the only other as good or better ride available was from Rolls Royce.
I thinks it's time to reinvent what a true luxury car is. Cus these days just being expensive seems to be the only real qualifcation.
The only modern car that really hit the nail on the head has been the Maybach, but let's be honest, it was lil hard on the eyes (besides being lil more than a warmed over über optioned S Class)
Another thing, the "experience" of ownership has to be top class. This is NOT a run of the mill production car. Customers are courted. U send them exsquisite brochures. You invite them to a private viewing, you show them the car in a studio. You make it clear that no two will be alike. Why? Because we will custom build it to YOUR specifications. Any color, any interior materials, what you prefer different wheels? We will custom water jet a set in a style u prefer.
I think Cadillac could raise the bar to a whole new level with such a car. The attitude should be that of seeing ur tailor for a custom made suite just for YOU.
Even if the don't make money on the line, it would bask all of GM with such a positive light that the increased sales of lesser Cadillacs and GM products would be more than worth the cost.
Yuck! But it's good to know the team that designed the Aztec still has jobs.
@ barber a v4 engine are you sure that wasn't an old Saab you had.
JzEllis, true, true and true... You had a 90 Legacy; so did I CV boots failed ever 9 months thus the axels would fail; I have never looked back to foreign manufacturers, then there was my Volkswagon wow where do I begin; my GM cars 99 Chevy Blazer traded in with 240,000 miles, 96 Saturn SW2 190,000 (what a fun car to drive) Sold. 98 blazer 2dr 130,000. Chevy Malibu 80,000 no problems ever. GM build the best cars hands down... When people tell me the problems they have with there cars I just laugh and tell them to buy a GM next time...
Tony, must be made yes, Land Yacht "look" HECK NO; a well executed land yacht, seriously... A land yacht is a land yacht is a land yacht no matter how much lipstick you put on it. Let's remember that the Ciel was a concept, a demonstration of ideas floating around in GM's brain; while some may think its gorgeous many of us were left thinking seriously that's what's been conjured up by the design Gods at GM... The Ciel is just what it is a concept... The next flagship will cater to a broader set of wealthy people, people that prbly don't recall what a 70's Cadillac even looks like.
OK, I'm done!! Was just watching TopGear uk, and Richard Hammond just showed the audiance a picture of the Ciel! Guess what the audiences reaction was? "Aaaaaaaaaawwwww" everyone agreed it looked beautiful.
So let's see, Jalopnik [a site full of youg racers, drifters, car tinkerers and all around gear heads LOVES the Ciel and Cadillac 16. Constant questions about why Cadillac can't build cars like that anymore. Next a renowned the world over "car guy" show takes time out of its usual exotic car road test and tomfoolery to discuss the Cadillac Ciel while wowing the European audiance. And GM is still teasing us with concepts and BMW fighters and half assed FWD geriatric mobiles...SMH.
wait what!!!! what episode?
Last nights hour and a half episode. It's a new one! The one where James drives and loves the Fisker, And Jeremy does the Fararri FF vs the Bently Continental GT on ice.