A lot of people were confused when General Motors decided to axe Pontiac. The brand was finally starting to look up after being mismanaged for a number of years. GM had big plans for the brand, such as a next-generation G6 based on the athletic Alpha platform in the works, and even a replacement for the Pontiac GTO. So what happened?
Well, according to what Bob Lutz is confessing, Pontiac was killed under government orders. In the midst of the company’s bankruptcy, the feds wanted GM to trim the fat and get down to two core brands, Cadillac, for high end vehicles and mass market Chevrolet. Lutz argued that they needed to keep Buick due its to relevance in China, and if it were to not exist in America anymore, the Chinese would no longer want them. GM also wanted to keep GMC, as it had an entirely different image with customers who were willing to pay different prices for a GMC in comparison to a Chevrolet, not to mention the brand was profitable. So the feds said okay, keep GMC and Buick, but if you don’t get rid of Pontiac, we won’t bail you out.
So away Pontiac went. During a Q&A at the Petersen Automotive Museum in Los Angeles, Lutz said Pontiac was on its way to having an all rear-wheel drive lineup before being killed off, and the next G6 was going to be based off the Cadillac ATS.
“The next G6, was going to use the architecture of the Cadillac ATS, it was going to be a 3-series sized rear-wheel drive Pontiac, with basically the Cadillac ATS ‘de-premiumized,’ obviously, a lot of the cost taken out, but still fundamentally that architecture.”
He continues:
“That was going to be the next G6, and I think we could’ve moved Pontiac away from every other American volume brand and really started positioning it as attractive U.S. alternative to some of the, and obviously at much lower prices than the European rear-wheel drive cars, but the Feds said ‘ how much money have you made on Pontiac in the last 10 years?’ Well, the answer was ‘nothing.’ So, it goes. And when the guy who is handing you the check for 53 billion dollars says I don’t want Pontiac, drop Pontiac or you don’t get the money, it doesn’t take you very long to make up your mind,” he continued. “But I think it is a shame, Pontiac was on its way back, and it was killed before it, before the plant could really sprout blossoms.”
Again, Pontiac made no money. Though it’s a shame that it took up until it was too late for the brand to have what would have been a stalwart lineup.
But the question is; was it really Uncle Sam? Or did GM — with Bob Lutz — inadvertently kill Pontiac by forcing it into irrelevance with re-badges of other GM vehicles? Furthermore, what would that ATS based G6 have looked like?
Buckle up, and watch the full 2-hour interview below. Along with the Pontiac bombshell, we hear a lot about Lutz’s fascinating background, all the way back from when he was a toddler in Switzerland. For some reason, the interview begins around the 23-minute mark:
Breaking out the spec sheets for a comparison.
Plus, a nationwide lease on all-electric off-road Pickup and SUV.
Extra comfort for rear-seated passengers.
Filings made in 24 countries, so far.
The sweepstakes closes on December 22nd and the drawing will take place on December 28th.
At a time of year when luxury car ATP usually rises.
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Great. Let's bring this issue back again...
--Feds said ‘ how much money have you made on Pontiac in the last 10 years?’ Well, the answer was ‘nothing.’ --
There's the answer. Not the government, but basic economics.
What business case would justify continuing to produce cars that made nothing? Why should GM have continued with Pontiac if it wasn't making money? I loved Pontiac. Still do. My '01 Grand Prix just turned 229,000 miles yesterday. But, the business plan Lutz talks about really doesn't match the current direction of GM. Chevrolet has the RWD performance locked down with Camaro, SS, and Corvette. A de-contented ATS likely wouldn't be profitable either - especially with the G6 moniker. Anything that could be done with Pontiac could be (and has been) handled profitably with Chevy. His business model for low volume RWD cars couldn't function with sticker prices less than 25k-30k. Look at the prices of the Camaros, SS's and Corvettes. Sorry, but I don't see how it would work.
Pontiac was dead long before 2009.. then it simply became official.
now, cue moanalua....
The reason Pontiac wasn't making money is because of the government too. The government, running under liberal "hate America" ideology, that said the United States was the greatest evil in the world, destroying the planet, evil corporations, with GM being poster company for all the evils they believed the United States is, was doing ALL it could to PROP UP it's competitors, namely Japanese auto makers, and at the same time, make the market hostile to American brands. How did they do that you ask? By onerous CAFE standards. Those standards simply told the American automakers to make their cars like the Japanese cars, effectively ELIMINATING any reason for GM to be in the market. THAT is ALL those standards did. That along with rationing of oil through extremely restrictive drilling prohibitions on the outside and government/liberal supported unions on the inside, THAT is why GM was in the shape it was in, ALL because of overbearing, unconstitutional GOVERNMENT and anti-American liberal ideology.
I don't want to hijack and send readers elsewhere, but Jalopnik has done some damn good articles (both facts and editor opinion pieces) over the past couple days regarding Pontiac and Lutz's claims. Very good and insightful reads.
"His business model for low volume RWD cars couldn’t function with sticker prices less than 25k-30k"
^This is crux of the matter. Lutz ambitions were too unrealistic for the time in which we live in. The consumer's interest has shifted, and those that would have wanted such a car 10 years ago are a smaller group of people today.
I knew about the "RWD G6" stuff ages ago. It was to be a variant of a proposed Holden Torana, something not too unlike the Torana concept from 2004.
But I knew it was a longshot, that RWD alone wasn't going to make Pontiac relevant to buyers. That Lutz was too much of an unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky car guy to think that affordable performance in the era of $1.30/L gas was unworkable. He proved his ignorance to me when he said wanted Pontiac to become an "American BMW"; him thinking that performance and luxury were value propositions that Pontiac could capitalize on.
Source: http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2003-03-16/an-american-bmw-dont-hold-your-breath
That's why I don't buy Lutz's story.
I wouldn't want to see an decontented ATS today just as I would never want to see it as a hypothetical G6 today. The ATS is a bright spot in Cadillac's range and there is no need to dull it with cheaper, more accessible versions; versions that can only boast about being RWD and nothing else.
Oh, and don't forget the 10 years of unprofitably. It's hard to blame the US feds for that one when you were working there, Lutz. Why didn't you do anything to make appealing cars that created volume rather than expensive R&D niche products?
"Why didn’t you do anything to make appealing cars that created volume rather than expensive R&D niche products?"
Did you miss the 2008 Malibu/Aura? Chevrolet /GMC Silverado/Sierra/ Tahoe/Yukon/ Traverse/Acadia/Outlook?
Enjoyed that, learned a little more about Bob Lutz & his knowledge of the world market which IMO he knows his stuff. Proper petrol head (aka gear head in US) he obviously enjoys talking cars, hat tipped to the man.
First of all, I find it hard to believe that Chrysler has been bailed multiple times with seemingly no game plan, but GM had to kill a storied brand to make an extra couple of bucks. In my eyes, brands were a small part of the problem. If GM built cars as great as they do today on 8 brands, it would hardly make a difference.
Second, I'm going to be the first to mention the elephant in the room. When 100% independent, is there a chance GM gives Pontiac another go? If they strip down the alpha platform vehicles, they already have 3 RWD cars (G6, G8, Trans Am). The brand already existed and hasn't been gone for long. In fact, I'm sure a good 30% of people are unaware Pontiac even left.
Also, if they don't do this, I hope they continue the RWD Regal project. It was probably too fill the void of the failed G6 project, which I was painfully unaware of.
" In my eyes, brands were a small part of the problem. If GM built cars as great as they do today on 8 brands, it would hardly make a difference."
It makes a hell of a difference when you're trying to fund the engineering for so many brands that only end up cannibalizing each other instead of the competition.
Well I am a Pontiac fan from the day I was driven home from the Hospital when I was born.
I also am a big Bob Lutz fan and support much of what he has said and done. Now with that qualified I really think they did the only thing they really could do at this point.
The real issue is Bob got there 10 years too late and had no money to really fix Pontiac. In the end they had two real Performance models in the G8 and the Solstice. The G8 is coming back as a SS and the Solstice really was not selling in numbers to where it would have made it to a second gen. GM really had no money for a second Gen anyways.
Pontiac was a damaged brand and had not been profitable for a long time. Even if GM had kept them how would they have faired since the Chapter 11 seeing GM has just finally only got the first stage of the revamp at Chevy done with a lot more work to go. Also Buicks revamp is just starting to begin.
Where would Pontiac fit in between the price of Buick and Chevy? There is just too much over lap in the similar price segments.
In a global aspect where would Pontiac fit? Every division is now going global with only a few market driven segment models for each global market. Chevy is with Holden now a Holden needed the smaller more efficient cars and could share the RWD with Chevy. The Buicks are now part of Opel and with millions of Chinese wanting them Buick was not going to go away.
The truth is the G8 is back on US soil as a Chevy and the so called Alpha G6 would easily fit in as a Buick GN and better fit the price segment.
In the global automotive market we are now to a point where most automakers are only able to handle 1-3 brands. The market can not support 5 brands inside a $40k price range.
Looking I hind sight many predicted GM would lose market share and profits. Well since the loss of Pontiac GM has picked up market share and increase profits.
Now finally I still am a Pontiac owner and attend many Pontiac shows including the largest Pontiac show in the world the Pontiac Tripower Nationals. At these shows many there are not very upset with the loss of Pontiac as many feel Pontiac faded from being what they were years ago. With the loss of the Pontiac 400 in 1979 they lost their soul that set them apart from Chevy. In 1988 with the loss of the Fiero they lost their real innovation and in in the last year of the Firebird they lost their real spirit. Since then they were mostly rebadged plastic cladded Chevys with red Dash lights.
The best two cars they had were Holdens and the Solstice is not the kind of car that can support a division on its own or for a long time. No two seater outside the Corvette and Miata have lasted very long not even the RX7.
In my heart like Bob I wish they had saved Pontiac but as time goes on and seeing how things are I really can not rationalize where GM would be farther along or better off with a division in need of major repair.
If you do not believe me then try to build a realistic business case where you can pay for billions in development, create a global market for a Pontiac and sell it at a price that would not piss everyone off like the SS price did while offering all real and true performance cars. Now on top of that still make a profit and still have to find the billions to rebuild Buick, Opel and proper Cadillac LTS. Then you also have to finance the second wave of improved cars at Chevy with the second gen Cruze, Sonic and much needed Malibu replacement. Oh and a properly funded Camaro 6th gen.
Not easy if you have to play by the parameters GM has to face and not the ones that work on the web.
You screw up 1-2 models bad and you can set the company back 5 years.
I love Bob and agree with him often but he has made mistakes and even has fessed up to them. This is one where my heart is with him but my brain says it is not a practical idea.
While Pontiac is gone I still have mine and no one can take it away. To be honest it is good there are no more G3, G4, G6 and Torrents damaging my cars image.
As for the re bodied Camarobirds they sell in very small numbers and I can spend much less and get a clean example of a real Trans Am with a real Pontiac engine that will only increase in value with time.
If GM could afford to have revamped Pontiac Right and had it done in 5 years I would have been all for it but It would have taken 10 years to have done it right and the continued damage would have not helped.
If Bob had only come ten years sooner. He was the only one who understood the brand in years at GM. But by the time he got here there was no money for him to fix them in time.
I spoke to Fred SImmion of Pontiac Motorsports and he told me the 04 GTO did not get the hood and the split tail pipes because they just did not have the money. F Bodfather Scott Settlmire the F body manager told me how little money they had to do all they did do just to get the GTO here. The cost of the crash test alone took much of the funding.
I am sure GM wanted Pontiac like I want a C7 but neither of us could afford it.
Read his three books as they are some of the best insight you can find on the auto industry.
I prize my three books and have learned a lot.
I also recommend Deloreans book On a Clear Day You Can See GM. It tells much of what lead us to where things ended.
If GM was forced to kill Pontiac, then that means there was a plan for it and there still is. GM is going to bring back Pontiac, however only when management sorts out the more important things with the company. I honestly think lutz's idea of a brand focused on affordable RWD cars can work.
Everything that was intended for Pontiac is being folded into Chevy and to some extent Buick (GN and GNX on Alpha)
Great information...it seems a lot of us are nostalgic for the era of exciting GM brands that were distinctive and of a certain quality.
I was very young when our family bought a 1968 Pontiac Bonneville, with a distinctive beak and personality all its own. I loved what Pontiac represented in the sixties and through the early eighties. I bought a 1983 Pontiac STS in 1984, which was a great car - European style and feel in an American package. Unfortunately, I totaled it after 3 months and bought a 1985 Buick Regal Somerset. That was my last GM car - I traded it in late 1986 for a German vehicle.
Pontiac was not the same car with the introduction of the 1985 Grand Am. I loved the look of the car, but the plastic interior was nothing like the quality interior of those 1960s dashboards. Buick was a more desirable target with its combination of sportiness and near-luxury, but GM decided to save costs and went the cookie cutter route with hopelessly bland interiors across the board.
GM is doing a lot of things right these days, so let's hope we continue to see future models that people want to buy. Reality -aka business models - must be linked to the marketplace. Pontiac will never be resurrected, but hopefully Buick can successfully take up the mantra to infuse cars that are sportier and nicer than Chevrolet and be an attractive alternative to the masses still buying Japanese and German counterparts.