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GM needed to get rid of Pontiac so it could get its act together, we all know this. But I think it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again. GM is missing an important segment now, the affordble performance. All they have is the Camaro which isnt affordable for say a 20 year old if he wants a fast Camaro. The base is about the only affordable one. Where are the 4-door performance cars? Chevy competes with the generic mainstream brands like Honda, Ford, Toyota. Pontiac should compete with the sporty mainstream brands like Nissan, Mazda, Volkswagon and even Scion. Buick competes with the Japanese luxury cars and Cadillac competes with the German luxury cars. GM needs Pontiac!
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Ironically, the sport mainstream brands you mention are trying to become more less sporty and more mainstream, while the “generic mainstream” ones are trying to become more sporty. Case in point: Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Civic Si. VW, Mazda, and Nissan are trying to appeal to the mainstream with their offerings since they currently have a low volume, and much increase it to stay profitable.
I think what needs to occur is for Buick to go away and eventually get replaced by Opel, which will offer slightly more upmarket yet still affordable sporty vehicles. Chevy can easily offer affordable but high-performance versions of the Cruze, Sonic, Malibu, and even Impala. The base models of those cars are spot in terms of handling and drivability; they just need an option for more power and oomph. And that’s really what Pontiac failed to do with the exception of G6 GXP and G8.
PS: I’m loving this forum guys :)>-
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@wbodyfan: I think GM should leave fuel effciency to Chevy, ya know have that brand compete in the fuel effciency game. Resurect Pontiac and make it about performance…but of course do their best to also make Pontiac as fuel efficient as possible haha. At the end it was sad that GM actually thought cars like the G3 and Aztek were suitable to wear a Pontiac badge, but they also had the some pretty sweet cars there at the end like the ones you mentioned and the Solstice…also did you forget about the Grand Prix GTP and GXP? Those things were beast! Pontiac needs to return, it will do GM a lot of good.
@alex: Yes the New GM could resurect Pontiac because during the bankruptcy, they never sold the Pontiac name so they still own the rights to the name. Some guy actually tried to buy the Pontiac name during the bankruptcy but GM said no. Maybe they will resurect the brand when the economy and their profits are doing well enough!
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Reply to @PontiacRulz: I see. I feel, though, that whatever brand GM introduces or resurrects will be global going forward. At that, I think @wbodyfan is spot on about bringing Opel to the States. Opel already exists in Europe and will soon be made available in all locations excerpt for North America.
How do you feel about Opel?
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I don’t like Opel. But I don’t know much about it either and dont want to honestly. You are right about the global thing, If GM were to resurect Pontiac then it would more than likely need to be a global brand from that point on or atleast be sold in a few other countries as well. I don’t know if you have looked at GM’s facebook page in a while but there is always SOOO many people on there saying they want Pontiac back. If GM listens to it’s customers then it will bring the brand back because so many people want it back and I know GM sees, it’s hard not to see it.
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Opel is basically the German sporty brand for the mainstream. It’s affordable and its vehicles are fun to drive. You should really look into its entire lineup. Aside from the stupid Combo van that is now based on a Fiat, I would drive any Opel vehicle — and this is coming from someone who drives a 2012 Camaro and is about to get an Equinox. Previously, I had a G8. And previous to that, the (new) GTO.
That said, Pontiac will never become a global brand. It sounds awkward and will simply cost way too much to globalize it (@alex should like that term).
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I have to disagree with you, I think Pontiac has a lot of potential to become a global brand. What do you mean “sounds akward”? What are you talking about??
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Well, for starters, can you imagine a Russian or Chinese person saying “Pontiac” — just the word itself? They’ve never even heard of it — so take up would be very difficult.
Secondly, it would be extremely expensive to launch a new brand in markets that are new to it. That’s why Opel, having a global presence except for that in North America, has a much better chance of being “globalized” — it already exists (or will exist this year) in most of the world and is also respected in most of the markets in which it is sold. It would cost a tremendous amount less to bring Opel to NA than it would to 1) bring back Pontiac in NA and then 2) make it global.
On top of that, how and where would Pontiac be positioned in ΓΌber-competitiev markets like Europe?
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Well honestly I don’t care what a Russian or Chinese person thinks about the word Pontiac. It is an American brand and when they say the name they wont forget that. How about Hyundai here in America? Do you think we Americans loved that name at first? No lol. I understand that Opel has global presence but your thinking is backward. You think that since the world (except for North America) knows about Opel that we should use Opel. I think that because the US people want Pontiac back and because Pontiac is a brand that AMERICANS love that it should be brought back soley for that reason. We do what America wants first, not what the world wants.
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It doesn’t matter what kind of thinking we utilize — forward or backward. If this ever does occur, it will be a business decision. Not one of sentimental value or national concerns.
And I’m willing to bet that Opel has a bigger chance of coming here than Pontiac does becoming a global brand. That’s just business, plain and simple.
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We will have to agree to disagree, Alex. I do have to ask though, where do you get your info about GM? I heard a rumor GM is thinking about bringing it back.
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Reply to @PontiacRulz: Which info, in particular?
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Just all the new info on this site you put up as new news. How do you find out all the new stuff about the latest at GM? Let us know if you here anything about Pontiac coming back please!
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Reply to @PontiacRulz: Some of our stories are from internal sources the identities of whom we do not disclose. Other than that, other stories have 3rd party sources or press releases listed at the end of the particular article.
Nothing about Pontiac as of yet, though.
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I would say they should bring back Pontiac as a affordable sports machine.
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I think it’s incredible how differently Americans view Opel to how Europeans do. In Europe it is possibly the least cool brand of car, and they’re considered to be desperately dull to drive.
Europeans laugh at them, usually. It’s extraordinary how you say their image is of ‘the German sporty brand for the mainstream’ when they’re not even viewed as being particularly German. More ‘pan-European’.However in Britain, where they’re branded ‘Vauxhall’, they’re the second most popular brand of car (behind Ford, but considered cooler than Ford, with more potential to boost sales), and most young people want a Corsa as their first car.
Whilst Opel may have the right image in America, please accept that it’s reputation and image COULD NOT BE WORSE in Europe. In this comment, I’m considering Britain and Europe to be different entities, as in terms of buying cars, we definitely are.
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Reply to @IainVauxhall: That’s quite interesting — thanks for sharing. I’m actually quite surprised by the opinions of many Europeans (outside of Britain, I guess) in thinking that Opels are dull to drive. Outside of VW, I can’t think of another mainstream automaker that makes as great/fun-driving cars as Opel. Toyota and Nissan certainly don’t come close. Neither does Honda, although its lineup is somewhat different in Europe compared to the States.
I think the image issues you describe can be repaired in the long run. It’s amazing to me how Kia and Hyundai have turned the perception of their brands completely around in the US and Canada — only in a matter of a few short years. Any reason why Opel couldn’t do the same?
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Like many GM faithfull I was shocked by Pontiacs demise. At the end of the day GM is only able to sustain one truly globalized brand which is Chevy. While it has its other 2 major brands in some international markets I feel to sustain any brand in the future these brands will have to expand further. GM might be able to sustain a small national focused sports brand in Pontiac but it would have to lean heavily on the likes of Opel based.platforms or even Holden platforms. My idea would be resurect the brand with 3 sporty vehicles that carve out a niche in the market. Pontiac would only offer V6’s or all wheel drive only might have to be a sub-brand for Cafe reasons.
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It’s also a bit of a business “swamp” for GM. There are so many Pontiac faithful that were pissed off by its discontinuation that anything Pontiac-related today could spur more hatred… Like making it a sub brand.
At some point, it gets to be more trouble than it’s worth, you know?
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True…
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Not to take this off-topic, but I still remain a huge proponent of bringing Opel here. It would even have the added strength of being “European” — and most of those products fare very well with Americans.
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It would be great to bring back Pontiac. I don’t think anybody would have any speaking Pontiac name. Camaro is in China.
Earlier today, (March, 2011) SGM announced that Chevrolet will introduce the legendary Camaro sports car at Auto Shanghai 2011 in April. The Camaro will have a sonorous Chinese name – η§θΏη½ (Ke Mai Luo). The Ke Mai Luo with a 3.6-liter engine will be priced around RMB 500,000.In recent years, China’s luxury sports car market has been flourishing, highlighted by the midsize luxury segment (priced at RMB 400,000–800,000), which grew 141% in 2010. At present, this segment is dominated by cars with European design. The Camaro, with its “masculine” styling, will be a welcome addition.
Additional details about the Camaro will be announced at the Shanghai auto show
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That’s great, but Pontiac still has very low chances of being a global brand. And without a unique product portfolio — which will be expensive to make for a single continent (like North America) — its chances of being resurrected are nill. That’s reality, although I wish I could introduce some wishful thinking. :((
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Aside from the product portfolio for a minute, I don’t see why Pontiac couldn’t be a global brand. I think it would make a great global brand.
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@PontiacRulz Because the barriers to doing so are humongous. Here’s what would need to occur to make Pontiac a global player:
1. Design, develop, and engineer a new product portfolio (very expensive)
2. Resurrect the brand in the U.S. and Canada (cheap)
3. Market a brand that’s been off the market for the last two (or more) years (mildly expensive)
4. Coordinate dealer activities to sell the product (cheap in NA, very expensive outside of NA)
5. Repeat steps 2 through 4 in markets outside of North America (prohibitively expensive)A brand like Pontiac would add very little value in uber competitive markets such as Europe while taking volume away from Chevy.
My question is this: how would Pontiac be different than Chevy, keeping in mind that most, if not all vehicles, will share architectures with those from the Bow tie?
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Pontiac used to be and in my opinion always has been more sporty and performance driven than Chevy. Sure share the architecture with Chevy but put a supercharger on the Pontiac…and make the Pontiac look more Pontiacish haha, you know more muscular and aggresive. Pontiac has an identity and if that identity is kept in place when the brand is brought back, it will be a PONTIAC and not a Chevy.
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I want a boosted four like on the Cobalt SS. Those things hauled ass and sounded mean from the factory!
I’m all for bringing Pontiac back, but as @alex pointed out – it would be very difficult to make a business case for its return.
What I’d recommend is to give all Chevys a performance variant with a high pressure turbo or a supercharger. That should satisfy the performance crowd that looked for that in a Pontiac. And this is coming from a former GTO and G8 owner… currently driving a 2012 Camaro.
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@alex
You have to remember that those brands produce different cars for our market. In the EU there is far more focus on the driver. Vauxhall is often considered to be dull to drive – as is VW. The only mainstream brand which is really considered to have a sporty feel to drive is Ford – unfortunately this doesn’t translate into the looks and image of the cars.
Back in ’98, when they released the first Focus, it was like genesis here. If you look at the Astra it had to compete with, GM was 20 years behind. But from there, the Astra improved, whereas the Focus became dull, and then repellently ugly and the driver focus also suffered. I could not contemplate the current Focus against the Astra, or the Mondeo against the Insignia.I’m a firm Vauxhall fan, when it comes to mainstream cars offered in the UK. I would not hesitate to recommend my car, and neither would my family (my mother relies on it a lot with her BMW being back with the dealer so much π )
By the way, she’s thinking of having a Volt next, or possibly an Astra. She’s not changing yet, so we’ll see. But I’ve managed to pull her firmly into the GM stable after a string of Audis and BMWs. My brother is planning on a Corsa when he finally gets to buying a car (he’s 17 soon, the minimum driving age here)
So GM is certainly doing right by us, and I’ve persuaded a lot of friends into Vauxhalls from VWs, none of whom have looked back yet! -
People, People, People! I think some of you are underestimating the strength of the Pontiac brand. Let’s not forget that when GM murdered Pontiac, it was outselling Buick TWO-TO-ONE! That’s right: Two-to-one. We don’t have to sit on our hands and moan about how we’d LIKE to see Pontiac return. I’m suggesting that not only CAN it return; it SHOULD and MUST return! Pontiac was doing well enough to survive, except for that doggone Great Recession. Well, that recession is OVER. So, too, should Pontiac’s premature and ill-advised death. Unlike people, automobile brands can be brought back from the dead. In fact, I prefer to think that Pontiac merely went into hibernation. They say that you can’t keep a good man down. Well, you can’t keep a good BRAND down. Pontiac had a large and loyal following (much larger than Buick’s), it was offering five or six models (compared to Buick’s THREE! How pitiful is THAT?), it had a G8 Sport Truck being planned (kind of like a Pontiac El Camino), it was an iconic, legacy brand (built the GTO, the US’s first musclecar, and thereby ushered-in the musclecar era), it was positioned as GM’s competitor to BMW (with Pontiac’s best BMW-fighter being the G8), there was heavy demand for a new Trans Am (and there STILL is heavy demand for it), and it (Pontiac) sold well in Canada. Did I leave anything out? The Great Recession is over, it’s time to bring Pontiac back! No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Pontiac is still a strong brand with a large and passionate following. Quite frankly, I’m sure that it would be financially viable. GM, PLEASE GIVE IT A SHOT!
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I agree 100% Moanalua! It’s just getting GM to bring it back that will be the trouble. I think it can be done though, there are so many people who want Pontiac back and I know GM sees it. Hopefully as soon as the government is completly out of the company they will start thinking about Pontiac a little more.
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Yeah. We MIGHT have to wait until the Feds get out of GM’s hair. Did it ever occur to the Feds that there are taxpayers who want Pontiac BACK? We need to keep our passion for Pontiac hot. And then, when the Feds finally scram, we need to apply a full-court press on GM to bring Pontiac back. Pontiac fans: There are a LOT of us out there. I ask each of you: HOW MUCH do you want Pontiac back? If you want it back badly enough, then please JOIN that full-court press. Thank you.
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@Moanalua It’s the same questions we’ve discussed here before that will need to be answered:
1. Who will buy Pontiacs
2. Will it be enough to make financial sense (a profit)
3. How will Pontiac be different than Chevy vehicles?In its last incarnation, Pontiac didn’t offer much differentiation between its Chevy counterparts. In fact, most Pontiacs were plain-on Chevy rebadges, with the exception of Solstice, GTO, G8 — and there is a good argument to be made that the Solstice and G8 would have been better off as Chevys. The new GM — feds or no feds — will not do anything to in any way compromise Chevy’s mass-market appeal. So the question remains — how will Pontiac be any different?
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Remember: The only reason Pontiac was killed-off was the Great Recession. I don’t think Pontiac has to be RADICALLY different than it was just before the recession.
1. Who will buy Pontiacs? Why not the same folks who were buying them before the
recession?
2. If GM would tweak Pontiac in such a way that perhaps a smaller percentage of its
sales went to fleets, I think Pontiac can be profitable.
3. I see no reason why Pontiac should have to be any more different than Chevy than
it was when the recession hit.I don’t see why it would have been better if Solstice and G8 were Chevys. Also, I don’t
think Pontiac would threaten Chevy’s mass-market appeal. Chevy has always been #1
in sales for GM, even during Pontiac’s strongest years. I’m not insisting that Pontiac eclipse Chevy. As a loyal, life-long Pontiac (and therefore, GM) customer, I’m asking only that the brand be brought back. And believe me, I don’t think I’m the only such customer. But for the Great Recession, Pontiac would probably still be around. That recession is over. So should Pontiac’s absence. -
Pontiac ……….. what is there to talk about, only the past.
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QUESTION:1. Who will buy Pontiacs? ANSWER: Whoever likes them. Just like any other brand. If you like the looks, features, price, etc. of a car then you will check it out…that’s how it is with all car brands. That is how car brands get new customers, they build good cars. Also, there are a lot of Pontiac fans out there who will be happy the brand is back and will probably jump back to the brand.
QUESTION 2. Will it be enough for financial sense (profit)? ANSWER: Yes. Pontiac was GM’s third most profitable brand in the States when it was phased out, Pontiac HAS a huge fan base and people know the brand just like they know Chevy. You know how the “new GM” has made Buick, Chevy, GMC and Cadillac the best they have been in years? Well GM would do the same to Pontiac. The new Buicks, Cadillacs and Chevys are some awesome cars, Pontiac would benefit the same way if it were brought back.
Question 3. How will Pontiac be different than Chevy? ANSWER: Chevy is a mainstream brand that has to build vehicles that appeal to a broad range of people (silverado for hauling, camaro for performance people, traverse for familes, sonic for college kids, etc.) So Chevy has to pay attention to a lot of different people who want different types of vehicles. Pontiac on the other hand will be focused solely on the performance enthusiast. Pontiac will strictly be CARS, no trucks or SUV’s like Chevy. Pontiac will be an affordable performance brand (that also does it’s best at getting the best fuel economy it can) and will bring back the slogan…WE BUILD EXCITEMENT!
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Attaboy, PontiacRulz. YOU tell ’em. If the Pontiac brand were a person, it would have been a victim of wrongful death. Yes, Pontiac was #3 in sales at GM, behind only Chevy and GMC, respectively. It had a large, loyal, passionate following (and I believe it STILL does). And I agree with you that Chevy has to spread itself thin by trying to be all things to all people. Since Pontiac could specialize in sporty/performance vehicles (as it pretty-much had been known for), it has an excellent chance of being viable. Reviving Pontiac could be a good thing not only for us, but for GM as well. I’m asking ALL of Pontiac’s supporters out there: RALLY ‘ROUND PONTIAC! There’s strength in numbers, and we HAVE the numbers. We’re all current or potential GM customers. As such, let’s demand that GM bring Pontiac back!
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I own a “Pontiac” I own a “Saturn”. Lets see my youngest Daughter has a 2007 Saturn. My oldest Daughter drives a 2009 Saturn. My Son and his wife have a 2009 Saturn and a 2009 Pontiac. No matter, they are not coming back evan if we have a Oldsmobile-Pontiac-Saturn Rally at GM headquarters.
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Well, we didn’t say anything about Olds or Saturn. Olds has been gone for seven years, and Saturn wasn’t as strong a brand as Pontiac, so I agree that those brands aren’t coming back. Pontiac is another matter entirely. I agree that a Pontiac rally at GM HQ won’t necessarily bring the brand back, but it wouldn’t hurt, either. What might stand a better chance of bringing Pontiac back is GM seeing how MANY people want it back. GM is a business, and if the return of Pontiac could mean sufficiently more business for GM–if there’s adequate demand to make the return of Pontiac feasible–I don’t see why Pontiac COULDN’T return. What most of us on this thread (including the originator) are suggesting is that that demand DOES exist, and that the brand SHOULD return.
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Well that may be …………….. but it’s not going to happen any time soon, nor do I see anything of the sort happening in my life time. But ……….. Hey if I’m wrong, look me up I’ll admit it.
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I missed the Hummer ………….
Hummer-Oldsmobile-Pontiac-Saturn Rally at GM headquarters with SAAB bringing up the rear begging GM to return Pontiac to us. GM calls the cops to have the owners removed … might be the only thing to happen.
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But wait, there’s more … We can invite owners off all the other discontinued brands to the rally.
Welch (1903β1911)
Rainier (1905β1911)
Welch-Marquette (see Marquette)
Cartercar (1905β1915)
Elmore (1909β1912)
Rapid Truck (1909β1912)
Reliance Truck (1909β1912)
Welch-Detroit (1910β1911)
Marquette (1912)
Peninsular (1912) (see Marquette)
Samson Tractor (1917β1922)
Scripps-Booth (1917β1923)
Marquette (1930)
Oakland (1909β1931)
Viking (1929β1931)
LaSalle (1927β1940)McLaughlin (1918β1942)
Yellow Coach (1925β1943)
Sheridan (1921β1922)
Beaumont (1966β1969)
Envoy (1960β1970)
Acadian (1962β1971)
Ranger (1968β1976)
Bedford Vehicles (1927β1987)
General Motors Diesel Division (1938β1987)
Passport (1988β1991)
AsΓΌna (1993β1995)
Geo (1989β1997)
Daewoo (1982β2011) -
Pontiac “evolved” from Oakland. I don’t think any of the other brands stand any chance of returning. And yes, it would take a few years, perhaps, for Pontiac to ramp-up before any vehicles could actually be sold. We understand that even if GM decided to revive Pontiac today, it can’t suddenly start selling Pontiacs tomorrow. But you have to start SOMEWHERE. The sooner GM makes the decision to revive Pontiac, the sooner new Pontiac vehicles can once again hit the streets. Better late than “never-again.”
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Yupper …………… Pontiac “evolved” from Oakland. I don’t see GM bringing Pontiac back.
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Well, I think most of us on this thread do. At least, most of us HOPE it’s brought back. Time will tell.
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Hope is one thing …. want is another …. and will is yet another.
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What happens if GM would globalize Holden? and we get Holden instead of Pontiac, if have same vehicles as Pontiac did just different name?
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shoulda, woulda, coulda. I hope GM does something and for me it would be in the compact line. Put what ever name on them you’d like. Buick, Holden, Chevrolet, Vauxhall, Opel, Pontiac. 3000 lb car with 190hp and 180 tq. The Verano almost gets the job done. 3300 lbs and 180hp and what 170 lbs of torque. Give me that power train in the 3100 lb Cruze and we are on the right track.
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Needless to say, I’d like GM to put a PONTIAC nameplate on it. And, given the horsepower and torque figures you state, this would be a sport/performance vehicle. That’s EXACTLY what Pontiac was known for; that was Pontiac’s role as GM’s Excitement division. The fact that you desire such a vehicle shows that there’s still a market for Pontiac. I think we can say–with a reasonable degree of statistical certainty–that there are probably a good number of people desiring such a vehicle.
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@Lex What would be the point of globalizing Holden when it makes all of 2.5 unique models? Outside the Caprice, Commodore + Ute, all of its other products are rebadged as Chevrolet everywhere else, including:
Cruze
Sonic (Barina Spark)
Spark
Malibu
Colorado
Trailblazer
Captiva (will become the next-gen Equinox)@Moanalua I would disagree that Pontiac was known as the excitement division. All of 2, maybe 3, of its late-model vehicles we’re exciting: GTO, G8, Solstice. The GTO went away, leaving the latter two. I don’t consider the craptastic G3, G5, or even the G6 as exciting. All of these could be bought as Chevys down the street. And the Solstice/Sky deserve to be a Chevy as well. That leaves one potential model — the G8 (and the Ute)… Is that worthy of its own brand?
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Alex, did you read my comment on page 2 answering your questions?
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@PontiacRulz I sure did. I even just went back to re-read it.
What I still don’t understand is twofold:
1. How will Pontiac be different? You describe it as being the “excitement brand”. How will that look like in actual vehicles? How will that be different from Chevy?
2. To yours and @Moanalua‘s points of there being many people who would like to see the return of Pontiac: I don’t think it’s possible to truly quantify how many such people there are. Or if they even bought their current Pontiac because it was a Pontiac… or perhaps it was just the cheapest car they could find, or the only dealerships where they could get decent financing/lease terms.In other words, finding out real-world demand is very difficult, if not impossible.
But forget all that — the most important aspect is product, without which a brand is just a marketing tool. So I return to item #1 above.
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GM needs to provide legitimacy to all its brands that was not happening for pontiac, let’s wait and see what happens with existing brands
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Pontiac like Saturn is no longer needed. Buick needs a full line up of cars & Chevy needs a couple cars added to the line up. They need powertrain options
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Exactly
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RjIon: Buick doesnt need a full linep of cars, it’s fine with what it’s got…Verano, Regal, Lacrosse and Enclave. Pontiac is no longer needed? Are you nuts? They are needed, they were about affordable performance and had that image. believe me they are needed and GM would to good to have the brand back, especially with college aged folks.
Alex: Pontiacs will have performance packages and things. They will look sportier and will all have turbos or something.
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With the addition of the Verano, Buick “MAY” have all thats needed.
Oakland’s past it’s day, Pontiacs past it’s day.
10/4 snoman …. rogerdee bandit …. pedal to the metal good buddy, watch out for the plain brown wrappers. we are heading to the dealer to buy a new Chevy and we have a convoy …………………. convoy.
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What high performance cars did Pontiac had in the last decade of it’s existence? GTO, G8, Solstice, Trans am. I don’t think that our economy is ready for Pontiac, it’ll just drain GM’s money at this point. I say just add more models to Chevy lineup, like 4 door RWD car (Next gen Carpice) then a car like Sky/Solstice and High performance Cruze including 3 and 5 door hatch and coupe.
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Folks, let’s not forget that the originator of this thread is pushing for the RETURN of Pontiac. This thread is about RETURNING Pontiac. I understand that not everyone agrees with that position, and that it’s healthy to have some debate on the topic. However, sometimes I get the impression that some folks have some kind of deep-seated vendetta against Pontiac. I mean, at some point, it gets wearying. On a pro-Pontiac thread like this, I presume you would expect that Pontiac loyalists don’t WANT Buick to have any more models than it has now. That would HURT the chances of Pontiac returning, wouldn’t it? And don’t forget that Buick survived AT THE EXPENSE of Pontiac. I don’t think you’ll find a whole lot of love lost for Buick on a pro-Pontiac thread like this. OAKLAND CERTAINLY is past its day, but folks like the originator of this thread–and myself–believe that PONTIAC STILL has a place. And BELIEVE YOU ME, we two are NOT alone. Not by a LONG shot. Also, just because Pontiac was known as the Excitement division, that doesn’t necessarily mean that EVERY Pontiac model was going to tear-up the asphalt. It meant that Pontiacs were generally sportier than equivalent Chevy or Buick models; that’s all. In the cases of the GTO and the G8, those cars were INDEED performance cars, weren’t they? AGAIN, Pontiac was a strong brand with a large, loyal, passionate following. Also, the Great Recession, which killed Pontiac, is over. It’s been over for more than two years. Therefore, Pontiac loyalists believe that our economy IS ready for Pontiac. Obviously, there would be start-up costs associated with bringing the brand back into production, but that’s true for ANY product. We believe that in the longer term, Pontiac will prove itself viable. With the kind of following it had (and STILL has), I’d say its chances are awfully good.
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I don’t see any anti Pontiac or anti GM. Sometimes you get the impression that some folks have some kind of deep-seated vendetta against Pontiac you must be seeing that in some other thread on some other forum.
Back on subject ………. Pontiac is NOT coming back in my lifetime. If I like it or not, or if you like it or not
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I agree with everything you said Moanalua, glad there is another Pontiac supporter on here.
RjlON: You don’t know that it isn’t coming back. Do you have any idea how much GM still heres about Pontiac? Ever since Pontiac was phased out there has been a TON of backlash from people wanting Pontiac back. GM sees it to…all over their Facebook wall, on comment cards to the company, in letters to the company…they see it and I know the thought of bringing it back crosses their mind all the time. It has to…they never stop hearing about Pontiac.
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Moanalua, dude Iam pro pontiac but to RjION’s point you can only camp on the subject for so long and at the end of the day the debate is only supported by you and pontiacrulez, thats 2 people its not like there’s hundreds of people posting here proposing the return of pontiac, it is litterally the 2 of you. Let’s cut 2 the Chase what platforms would GM use to build the brand and how many billions of dollars should be spent… Give me some meat and potatoes to your answeres not these whinney milk toast answeres that bring no substance to this thread. We all want a legitimate GM a GM that is sustainable.
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I drive a Pontiac and it’s not the first Pontiac I have owned. It’s to bad GM had to let Saturn and Pontiac go. Thats the end of it what more can we say. I do not know first hand that Pontiac is gone forever, but I’d place a bet on it. I see no “meat and potato” reason for Saturn or Pontiac…………Again, I’d bet on it.
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No, I am not confusing what some naysayers are posting on other pro-Pontiac threads on other pro-Pontiac message boards. As a matter of fact, there are Pontiac loyalists on those message boards saying precisely the same things I’ve been saying, only much less diplomatically. And please, OBVIOUSLY, PontiacRulz and I are not the only two folks in the country pushing for the return of Pontiac. It’s not like every Pontiac loyalist in the country is posting on THIS thread, on THIS message board. I invite you to Google “Bring Pontiac Back”, and see what you get. That’s how I know about the strength of the movement to bring the brand back. It’s EXACTLY as PontiacRulz put it, three posts before this one. Incidentally, there could be some uncertainty regarding how a pro-Pontiac person should be defined. Perhaps some folks liked the brand, but not to the point that they care whether it returns or not. Then there are folks like PontiacRulz and I, who have a VERY strong affinity for the brand, and who STRONGLY want it to return. As for the “meat and potatoes,” it’s exactly like PontiacRulz said. GM is being BOMBARDED with communication from folks who want the brand back. If there’s STILL any doubt, a market research firm could be retained to determine the true strength of the demand for Pontiac. Perhaps GM might have such a resource in-house. We’re talking solid, orthodox, demand-and-supply. There’s nothing “whiny” or “Milquetoast” there.
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LIke I said
I drive a Pontiac and it’s not the first Pontiac I have owned. It’s to bad GM had to let Saturn and Pontiac go. Thats the end of it what more can we say. I do not know first hand that Pontiac is gone forever, but I’d place a bet on it. I see no “meat and potato” reason for Saturn or Pontiac…………Again, I’d bet on it.
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Ok but can you answere my questions, how many billions again billions would GM have to spend to reboot Pontiac, and what platforms would be used, we can all say we want Pontiac but how would GM do it, how would it be differentiated in marketplace. Again there is no substance to your posts, maybe I will just stop comming and reading the mindless bable on this thread.
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I’m not suggesting they bring Pontiac back immediately, I know it will cost money, but it will pay off when they are selling Pontiacs. Plus, since Pontiac’s were sold at the same delaerships as Buicks and GMC’s, GM wouldnt have to open all new dealerships, they would just have to put Pontiac signs back up at the Buick and GMC dealerships. So that would save a lot of money rather than having to make all new dealerships.
Pontiac still has a HUGE fan base and just like Moanalua said, I would love to see GM conduct a survey to see how many people want Pontiac back because everyone would see the crazy amount of people who are still talking about Pontiac and want it back. GM already knows how many people want it back though, they never hear the end of it. I dont care what anyone says, Pontiac was GM’s coolest brand, period. GM always talks about how they are trying to appeal to younger people…well they kinda shot themselves in the foot when they got rid of Pontiac, it was the most youthful and exciting brand.
If it were brought back it would benefit the same way all of GM’s remaning brands have: with great looking and all around great cars. I would love to see what the new Pontiacs would look like, they would be AWESOME! Pontiac would really be the excitement division. Everytime I see these new Buicks, Caddys and Chevs I always think…wow these are great…Pontiac should be enjoying the same fate. They would be sporty, aggresive looking, and great performing cars. I stand my ground when I say GM is missing something in their line up of brands and that is Pontiac….the affordable performance brand.
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The issue is competition here 30 years ago there was no Hyundai/Kia, many GM buyers have yet again jumped ship to another Asian onslaught. GM could not sustain all of its brands as it lost marketshare to Hyundai and a growing Nissan ect. Horrible marketing decisions plagued Pontiac and Saturn, while the legions of dislusioned GM owners jumped ship… At the end of the day GM cannot sustain more than 4 brands with the required turnaround for new product ect. Wow look a substantive post with meat to it, come on stop the weak posts and bring the meat… give me something worth reading.
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PontiacRulz, good for you! CONTINUE standing your ground, and I’ll stand with you. Pontiac’s murder may have created a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. Many Pontiac customers may have moved to Asian brands BECAUSE of–and as a RESULT of–anger and outrage towards GM for killing Pontiac. I’ve read posts on other Pontiac threads by former Pontiac customers who did PRECISELY THAT. You don’t GAIN market share by killing one of your brands. Disillusioned GM owners? Perhaps many of them jumped ship AFTER–and as a RESULT of–the murder of such brands as Pontiac. If the demand is there, I see no reason why GM can’t sustain five brands. If not, drop Buick. The four-brand lineup should be Chevy/GMC/Pontiac/Cadillac. If there’s adequate demand to keep Buick also, then by all means do so. Also, I think there’s a chance that former Pontiac customers who have defected to non-GM brands, might be won BACK, if GM revives Pontiac.
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Guys, let me briefly summarize what’s going on here.
Pro-Pontiackers: bring it back, there is plenty of demand, the brand is loved!
Anti-Pontiackers: how would Pontiac be any different from Chevy, is there a business case for it?Unfortunately, I’m in the Anti-Pontiac camp for the time being. I have yet to see or understand what value Pontiac would bring to the automotive world, the consumer, or GM, besides a legendary brand.
Can we talk actual vehicles here, rather than feelings and history? The latter two usually don’t get much accomplished.
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I’m not anti Pontiac ……….. I’m pro Reality. The reality of it is Pontiac itsn’t coming back in my lifetime.
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I don’t miss Pontiac. Towards the end, there was only an anemic shadow of the brands performance roots, and the principle business was mediocre cars like the G6. The G8 was an awesome performer, but the exterior was too similar to the rest of the line. Unless you were an auto enthusiast, the incredible GTO or G8 could have been a GP.
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To the automotive world Pontiac would be a performance brand and more specifically American muscle… mean c’mon how many brands are all about muscle these days? Dodge maybe but that’s it. Pontiac would be something different, catering to people who like performance. People would know Pontiac as performance and muslce, when you buy a Pontiac you know that’s what the brand image is and what your getting. I’ve already said all this before but I guess none of ya’ll “anti-Pontiackers” are listening or you just have some kind of dislike for Pontiac. To GM they would be selling an affordable performance brand that people already like and would even rival BMW, like the G8 did, at an affordable price.
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The exodus to Asian brands was happening way before the death of pontiac
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But the murder of Pontiac ACCELERATED it. PontiacRulz, I think you have it right. There are folks who don’t want to see Pontiac return, and I guess that’s reasonable enough: It’s a big world, with a lot of different kinds of folks. As much as you and I cherish the brand, we can’t expect everyone to feel the same way. Let’s keep standing our ground for Pontiac, though. Keep your eyes on the prize.
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Yea well since this is a GM site I figured there would be more Pontiac fans on here but I guess not. I haven’t forgot about the brand and I never will. I drive mine everyday and I have PONTIAC written across the windshield for everyone to see. I grew up around nothing but Pontiacs and I know that’s a big part of why I like them so much. Pontiac was done wrong with all the rebading and definetly was raped of it’s identity. It should be brought back and given the attention it deserved/ deserves. It has loads of potential.
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I would love to see a return of Pontiac, if only for sentimental reasons. I think there is a case to be made, however, for a value-priced performance brand. Remember what Pontiac was in the ’60s? Me neither. I’m not that old. But what I do know is that there are young people who buy Scions, Mazdas, Nissans, etc. who want small, sporty performance cars. If Pontiac could credibly serve that buyer they could be very successful. Award dealerships to high-performing Chevy dealers and it could be like the Fiat Boutiques at selected Chrysler dealers.
To that end, I think Pontiac would need a sporty version of the Chevy Sonic, Cruze, a Cruze hatchback variant, a small wagon (another Vibe?) and perhaps a mid-size sport sedan. That should be enough to get the buyers back into the market for Pontiacs. I’ll even go so far as to suggest names for the model line-up: Zip, Glide, Glide Sport, Vibe and Grand Prix.
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TobyHanson, thank you for joining this thread. The more pro-Pontiac folks on it, the better. Heck, this thread BEGAN as a pro-Pontiac thread. Well, I AM old enough to remember Pontiac in the ’60s. My first car was a ’66 Le Mans (with the 326 V8), and then I had a ’67 GTO after that. But I like your ideas about what a new, revived Pontiac brand should be like. Frankly, I don’t care HOW Pontiac looks when it returns, as long as it DOES return. After all, the Pontiac nameplate ALONE will always call to mind the brand’s great musclecars of the past (well, that Le Mans didn’t qualify as a musclecar, but the GTO did), for older Pontiac loyalists like me. We can like Pontiac for different reasons, but since we all support the brand, it’s all good. I mean, a Pontiac is a Pontiac. The brand itself, brings us together. By the way: I, too, still drive a Pontiac.
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Pontiac dumped – Buick saved ??!!
Take a look at your typical Buick driver – that sector of market will be gone in 10 years or so !
Look at the Buick symbol – three shields – a sit back defensive posture.
Look at the Pontiac symbol – an arrowhead – always moving forward.
The Vibe was unique, the G8 was unique, the Gran Prix was unique – and the Firebird was ready to be made unique.
Why not get financial commitments from all the Pontiac enthusiasts out there to buy one from their first return run ??
Chevy runs deep – Pontiac runs deeper !!!
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@gcmeninsr That’s one way of looking at it.
Another is that the Buick buyer is rapidly changing, with the brand being the fastest-growing premium/luxury brand in the world. Would you say that the typical Lexus buyer would be “gone in 10 years or so”? Absolutely not. Neither will it be for Buick given the recent resurgence in product and attention.
And which brand makes up for higher profit margins — Buick or Pontiac? GM is a business; and Pontiac simply didn’t present an attractive business case. Similar to how one can’t buy a 500-horsepower supercar for $10,000 because there isn’t a business case to be made there.
The Vibe was a Corolla hatch (ahem Matrix) — not something to be proud of, especially for Pontiac enthusiasts. The Gran Prix and Firebird were — that’s it, they just were — and then went away. Nothing you couldn’t have gotten in a Chevy (Impala or Monte Carlo).
So my question still remains: how would the resurrected Pontiac be different from Chevys? Not the brand, but the actual vehicles?
I’m not negative — I just want to understand how/where Pontiac would fit in today’s ΓΌber-competitive market place.
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I think they should get rid of Buick, and bring back Oldsmobile.
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@RJlON You’re kiddin, right? :))
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alex: thats my new campaign, I may evan start a website. :)]
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How about we go halfsies on the site? OldsmobileFTW.com? :-))
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Deal ………… now we need to come up with line up. The New Oldsmobile has to be everything Buick is, Everything Pontiac, Saturn and Olds was.
So the 2 seat roadster should be named Starfire
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@alex: Dude I’ve already told you a few times how Pontiac cars will be different but you keep asking so I’ll tell you again: Pontiac’s will be faster. They will be faster, standard and the more you move up trim levels the faster they will be. I mean think of a performance brand and what that means….that’s what Pontiac could be…an all RWD lineup would be ideal. Also, The Grand Prix was way cooler and better looking than the Impala. And the Firebird was always better than the Camaro. Ask a dude my age (19 years old) which GM brand is the coolest and he will say Pontiac. I ask all my friends and that’s what they say. Pontiac meant something to a lot of people and had an image to it whether you want to admit it or not. I’d rather have that arrow head on my car than that bow tie anyday.
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2 seat Roaster: Star Fire
Sport Compact: JetFire -
PontiacRulz, I agree with you 100%. I think it’s neat that Pontiac is treasured by so many young folks. I myself am 52, but I treasure the brand, too. This shows us that Pontiac has brand-appeal across a wide range of ages, which enhances its viability. Take note, GM. As for Olds, I DO respect it, but I suspect that GM would sooner revive Pontiac than it would Olds. Therefore, that two-seat roadster and sport compact would probably be built by Pontiac.
Two-seat roadster: Fiero
Sport compact: Sunfire -
2 seat Roaster: StarFire
Sport Compact: JetFire
Sport Mid Size: RocketFire -
@PontiacRulz The fact that they will be faster isn’t saying much, if anything.
My question is more specific: how will they be faster? Will they have different powertrains? Will they weigh less?
You need to consider the fact that any modifications you make to a vehicle outside top-hat sheet metal (which is cheap) is a significant additional expense that makes the business case for a low-volume, low-profit brand like Pontiac worse.
Have you drive a Cruze? How about the Sonic or the new Malibu? Here’s our first drive of the latter:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/12/2013-chevrolet-malibu-eco-the-first-drive/If you haven’t, you should. But my point is that all of the new Chevys not only look great and appeal to a much younger audience from a styling perspective, they also handle at the top (if not the best) in their class. All they need is more powerful engine options (for those who care and will pay extra for them) and you have your Pontiac revival.
“Ask a dude my age (19 years old) which GM brand is the coolest and he will say Pontiac. I ask all my friends and that’s what they say.”
That’s a man-says example if I’ve ever seen one and is totally irrelevant, if not fictitious. If we’re going to have an educated and constructive discussion about something as significant as bringing back a brand, we need real numbers from surveys, consumer studies, and customer voice prelims, among other opinion research tools. Let’s not even go there.
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Let me get back to you on that Alex, I will go there and I can dang sure find you some evidence that people want Pontiac back and never wanted it to go away. You think just because it was phased out that people magically don’t care about it anymore? Wrong. Chevy’s doing a ot better, I agree with you on that but Pontiac is still way cooler and always has been one up on Chevy as far as being cool. You can say whatever you want but I am 19 years old and I know what people my age think about cars. Most people my age dont even like American brands (sadly) but if they were going to consider an American brand, Pontiac would have been at the top of their short list.
arrow head>bow tie PONTIAC WILL ALWAYS BE THE COOLEST GM BRAND! -
2 seat Roaster: StarFire
Sport Compact: JetFire
Sport Mid Size: RocketFireCruiser
Star Cruiser
Super Cruiser -
Seeing as this thread began as a pro-Pontiac thread: Those of you who insist that hard figures be shown as to the demand for Pontiac, let me turn that on its head. Why don’t YOU show us hard figures that show there is INADEQUATE demand for Pontiac? I think that would make more sense on a pro-Pontiac thread. PROVE that this pro-Pontiac thread is all wet, as that’s what you seem to be implying.
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@ Pontiac Fans
Lets say Ford decides to purchase Pontiac rights and goes ahead and start producing Pontiacs the way you want to see them, how would you react to that? -
I have yet to see anyone say they didn’t want Pontiac to come back. I myself would love to see it, but it’s not going to happen in my lifetime …. Like it or not. So with that said what models do you think Oldsmobile should come out with when GM shuts down Buick and brings Olds back.
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Moanalua …………… Oldsmobile is just as unlikely as Pontiac. I didn’t think anyone would need an explanation.
PS: Alex the site sure has been loading slowly. Any upgrades in the future?
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But you said, “So with that said what models do you think Oldsmobile should come out with WHEN GM shuts down Buick AND BRINGS OLDS BACK.” (Emphases mine). You sound certain that Olds WILL be back.
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That’s what I was thinking. The only brand that has a chance is Pontiac.
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Yea I think we can all agree that Oldsmobile isn’t coming back. If anything is coming back it will be Pontiac. Olds was a good car though and it has good history, it was the first American car brand and second oldest car brand in the world. They were great cars for sure and nobody can talk bad about the brand, period.
But PONTIAC WILL BE BACK! and they will be some awesome performance cars! Pontiac will once again live up to it’s famous slogans “FUEL FOR THE SOUL” and “DRIVING EXCITEMEMT!”
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I agree completely. Let “PONTIAC WILL BE BACK!” be our battle cry. This is a call to arms, to all Pontiac loyalists out there: We need to convince GM to bring the brand back! Make your voices heard!
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Bringing OLDS back is a “joke”.
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I heard that GM didn’t even want to get rid of Pontiac but the government made them during the bailout. GM wanted to have 5 brands (Chevrolet, Pontiac, GMC, Buick and Cadillac) but the govt said nope, you can only have 4 so they had to cut Pontiac. Bring Pontiac back GM!
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Once the government is completly out of the company, they can bring back Pontiac. Whoop whoop!
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“The government” has actually been helping GM make the right decisions, negotiate better terms with suppliers & the UAW, and even incorporate the right organizational structure that calls for more direct responsibility.
That “more direct responsibility” piece will mean that whoever decides to bring Pontiac back will put their job on the line for that decision. I still don’t think — at the volume that Pontiac has been selling before the carpocalypse of 2009 — there’s a business case for the reintroduction of the brand. Unless GM plans on charging $30,000 and up for each vehicle…
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But Pontiac sells! It’s not like Oldsmobile, which was gotten rid of because it wasnt selling even when they overhauled the Olds lineup. Pontiac sells and I can only imagine how good it would do if GM really made a sweet a** lineup starting with a car like the G8 and a car like the Solstice. Pontiac is freaking awesome dude and it beats all the foreign brands that try to be cool. Bring back the excitement brand!
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So we have a G8-like vehicle… and a Solstice-like vehicle. What else?
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Put it to rest ……………………
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If you are just going to make fun of what I say or say stupid stuff like “put it to rest…..” then the heck with you. I don’t respond to comments from immature people who obviously arent even attempting to see my side of the argument and arent going to no matter what I say.
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What I am looking for like Alex is a legitimate answer and business model for the resurgence of Pontiac, truthfully if I was to bring back Pontiac I would have 2 vehicles to start with a G6 replacement based on the regal platform with a new modern product and brand theme that screamed modern yet harkened back to subtle retro themes. Then I would have an awesome sports car coupe that redefined the segment (not a pony car). The following year I would reintroduce the Kappa like roadster as well as a flagship sedan. All of these would be V6’s, only one engine type no need for all these different engines all would be designed for performance. Oh look I just created a business plan, unlike all the unbelievably rediculous Pontiac fan boys in this thread. Come on fan boys step it up or stop posting, give me something legitimate to read rather than all the worthless whinnying, “I want Pontiac back whaaa”. I want it back too and would be the first in line to buy one, but the business case is not there, design alone does not sell cars…
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Well said, @yabadabadoo. My only concern with something like that is that Chevy will suffer compared to brands like Ford, Hyundai, and Toyota.
For instance, the Hyundai Genesis Coupe is similar — if I’m understanding correctly — to the proposed sports car/coupe from Pontiac; it’s not a pony car — it’s in a totally different class. So is the Toyota FT86. Making such a vehicle a Pontiac limits the brand’s family “depth”. In other words, people walk into a Hyundai store to look at the Genesis Coupe. The husband gets the Genesis Coupe while the wife would like to test drive the Tucson; Hyundai sells two vehicles to the same family.
Now, Pontiac could be sold in Buick/GMC stores to encourage family depth/shopping, but I see several problems with that as well:
1. Buick/GMC are moving way, way, way upmarket to add a “mainstream” brand like Pontiac; especially the dealers.
2. Brand identity suffers. Whereas in the Hyundai scenario the people bought two Hyundais, here the family may get a Pontiac sports coupe and a GMC Terrain. Ultimately, they’re not buying another Pontiac, but they are buying another GM. Sure, it benefits GM at the end of the day; but it doesn’t fit GM’s strategy of each brand being able to stand on its own.Another point: the sale of the Pontiac-unique vehicles counts as Pontiac sales, which could hurt Chevy in the marketing department. For example, Ford can claim that the F-150 is the best-selling truck in America, which it is. But in some years, the combination of Silverado and Sierra has outsold the F-150. This isn’t very important, but it’s something that will be discussed within GM if Pontiac ever does come up on their radar; currently, it’s not.
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Alex; well spoken love the depth of discussion you provide in all your posts. You are absolutely right in everything you have said, Hyundai has had u huge impact on the market and I don’t see them letting up they have become a well tuned operation that has taken the original Japanes model and made it their own. As for GM and Pontiac you are right that Pontiac would disrupt the present strategy of building the existing brands. I believe GM would have to market pontiacs completely differently, the problem there is who buys pontiacs only men; because their to focused on performance, that doesn’t work.
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Agreed. Before the bankruptcy and discontinuation of Pontiac, many bought Pontiacs because they were — very often — the least expensive vehicle on the market (G3, G5, G6, Torrent). So at that point, it’s possible that the sex distribution (male/female) was even for the brand as a whole.
If GM were to make a real performance brand out of Pontiac though, one without such atrocities as the G3, G5, Torrent, or Azteck, then I’d wager more men would buy the vehicles.
Interestingly, the current sex demo split of the 5th gen Camaro is 60% male and 40% female… girls like the Camaro’s looks and most couldn’t care less about its performance. So if the Pontiac models look “sexy” (in girl speak), then it’s possible that many girls will buy them, as well.
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More than any other G.M. brand, Pontiac stood for performance, speed and sex appeal. In its best years, Pontiacs were highly styled, valued and really something! Pontiac even got a lift in the 1950s when G.M. used its cars on the racing circuit. Because of its “wide track” stance, Pontiacs quickly caught on with street racers, as well. In short… “Pontiac is style. Pontiac is performance. Pontiac is culture. Pontiac is music. Pontiac is CAR.” The true developers of “We Build Excitement!”
I took a lot of the above paragraph from an article entitled “Its Muscle Car Glory Faded, Pontiac Shrivels Up” Published: February 19, 2009 by Micheline Maynard. A lot of great points are made but probably the best being that of GM dooming Pontiac in the 80’s by basically making 1 car with 4 name plates and comprimising quality.
If Pontiac were to return it would almost certainly have to fill a niche market. Perhaps a retro Firebird and/or GTO as the Camaro’s have been modified by aftermarket facilities. The Solctice or a Fiero based upon it. A 4 door family car with muscles to flex like the G8. A division that would not directly compete umongst its GM brethern but bolster sales from those who might not want a Buick or were thinking of defecting to Ford.
I’m sure it’s all wishful thinking but I feel like I have nowhere to go to for a new car that fits my style and taste. Maybe a new Chevy will come along, doubtful Buick will do it and I’m not an import guy. I guess for now I will stick with what I have and then look to the used car market when it’s time. -
@5GMs Nice post and welcome to GM Authority!
I think the brand that Pontiac should “aim” to be is what Dodge is… and where Dodge is headed. Once they get rid of the silly Caravan, they’ll have one heck of a performance lineup:
Dart (based on Alfa Romeo Giulietta)
Avenger (will be replaced by Alfa-based model as well)
JourneyCharger
Challenger
DurangoThe three last ones are RWD. Enough said there.
The Dart and — once redesigned — the Avenger and Journey, will be very capable vehicles with amazing handling.I think a few months ago, Dodge experimented with the “Adrenaline unleashed” slogan (or something of the sort). That’s the direction Pontiac should be headed in.
Buick is going after Lexus, so no use of even trying to remotely fit a true Pontiac buyer into one of those… unless they’re looking for luxury.
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Like your post, Alex. As a Pontiac loyalist, I wouldn’t mind at all if a revived Pontiac brand would target Dodge. And as Buick is going after Lexus, a revived Pontiac should go after BMW. That’s what Pontiac had been doing since as early as 1973.
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@Moanalua The revived “new” Cadillac is going after BMW like nobody’s business. That’s GM’s internal goal, with non-performance vehicles like the XTS meant as stop gaps to transition the DTS crowd to the new performance-luxury-oriented Cadillac.
Besides, Pontiac would never be able to do what BMW does — from the perspective of “the whole package.” Maybe Pontiac could keep up with BMW on performance… but not on the luxury, quality, ownership experience, or technology fronts.
Pontiac should go after the niche that is the mainstream-budgeted performance consumer. If it does so with the right product, it will be successful.
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That would be fine, too. Frankly, I don’t really care HOW Pontiac returns, as long as it DOES return. And I hope someone from GM’s front office takes note of your last paragraph.
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Welcome to the discussion 5GMs, great post. Pontiac is all about what Alex said, mainstream budgeted performance….and heck with cars like the G8, Pontiac even has the potential to snag some sales from BMW. Cars like the G8 and Solstice were a huge step in the right direction for Pontiac. I think the topic of it’s return is becoming a lot more popular on the internet and in general. I really hope that GM is getting the message.
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Yes. As I had mentioned in an earlier post, Pontiac had targeted BMW as early as 1973. And again, the G8 WAS Pontiac’s BMW-fighter. alex said Cadilllac was going after BMW, but I think Cadillac should go after Mercedes instead. Them GM should revive Pontiac and let Pontiac go after BMW once again. Folks have been clamoring for Pontiac’s return ever since GM killed it. It’s ALL OVER the internet.
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Guys, the G8 was the poor man’s BMW. It was not a BMW competitor. It was the BMW for those who couldn’t afford one.
BMW, MB, Audi, Infiniti are in the same class of luxury vehicles. They make performance-oriented luxury. Lexus and Lincoln make comfortable luxury. There are tons of research by the likes of Wards, KBB, and private research firms that support this through and through.
Proposing Pontiac try and compete with BMW is like proposing that Dodge compete with BMW. You’re talking about two utterly different buyers, tastes, demographics, values, and customer profiles.
If we’re going to talk about Pontiac’s return, let’s talk realistically. No BMW customer is going to even think about looking at a Pontiac. There are a myriad of brand, loyalty, and historic factors at play here that are way beyond GM’s (or any automaker’s or marketer’s) reach. So, Buick is for going after Lexus (comfortable luxury). Cadillac is for going after BMW (performance luxury). Chevy is mainstream. Pontiac is performance for the mainstream.
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Well, yes: The G8 was indeed the poor man’s BMW. Nothing wrong with that. It served customers who couldn’t afford a BMW. Those count as sales for Pontiac. That’s the main thing: Sell cars. Yes, no one who can AFFORD a BMW would look at Pontiac. But those who CAN’T afford a BMW certainly might look at Pontiac. Having said that, I’m still totally OK with Pontiac being “performance for the mainstream,” as you say. Again, GM can configure Pontiac in any way that it wants, as long as it brings the brand back.
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Agreed. A Pontiac sale is a Pontiac sale, but it’s also not a loss for BMW, because that customer was never a potential in the first place.
I just want to be clear about the term/concept of competition π
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So what do you think Alex? Are you starting to come around the the idea of Pontiac coming back? π I really think GM would do well with the brand coming back and that it’s identity as an affordable performance brand would do well. Moanalua you are right, there is a LOT of stuff on the internet about Pontiac coming back and I know GM sees it.
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@PontiacRulz Only if it’s done right. We can’t have models like the Torrent, G3, G5, or even the G6. There was nothing cool, exciting, or passionate about those vehicles.
If Pontiac is to make a return, it needs to be done with the right product, executed to the T.
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I agree 100% Alex. Question now is, how do we the fans get GM to bring it back? I know the decesion is ultimately up to GM but we the fans need to do as much as we can to show GM the demand for the brands return and how it’s return would be a good idea. I’m on Facebook all the time doing that very thing haha. But Facebook isn’t enough. If something is to get done we have to do more.
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You know what, PontiacRulz? I think good Pontiac loyalists like you need to keep-on doing what you’re doing. Folks like you need to keep-on generating threads like this. We need to burn-up the internet with pro-Pontiac threads like this. This movement needs to get bigger and bigger; snowball. At some point, GM is going to have to get off its duff and DO something. The longer GM takes, more Pontiacs will eventually get into accidents or break down, and the owners will start to look for another vehicle. There’s a good chance they’ll purchase a new vehicle from a NON-GM manufacturer, not wanting to reward the company that killed their favorite brand. GM has ALREADY lost about 45% of Pontiac’s customers. If there’s adequate demand for Pontiac, how much longer is GM, as a business, going to turn its back on it?
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Idk that’s a good question though Moanalua. There is a HUGE demand for Pontiac, I could get a petition going here on the internet and have probably 10,000 signatures in a couple months. Fact is Pontiac is wanted and people never wanted it to go away. It WAS selling. I mean….I was out driving today and everywhere I went I saw a crap load of Pontiacs, they are everywhere. GM needs to bring it back, it was only gotten rid of because of the the bankruptcy and stuff. When GM is all the way back on their feet there is no question if it should be brought back. With the kind of cars GM is making today, Pontiacs would be BAD ASS!
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Heres what they need to do. They need to bring back pontiac and only there performance side. They need to compete and win against the mustangs and the comaros. If they came out with a firebird & the GTO that Had that muscle look and feel like the second generations did. They would hit a home run. So many people say the same thing and i think somany people would buy these cars if pontiac came out. Just to compete with the comaros and mustangs again.
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OK, folks: I’m a musclecar guy myself. Eight of the nine Pontiacs I’ve owned, have been musclecars (including the one I own now). However, I think we’d better let GM decide how Pontiac is going to return. It’s so difficult to get an automaker to bring a brand back; I think we should be thrilled if Pontiac returns at all. I suggest we focus on getting GM to REVIVE Pontiac, but not try to tell GM what Pontiac should be like. I think GM would appreciate that. ANY Pontiac is better than no Pontiac at all, half a loaf is better than none, etc.
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I agree, let’s just focus our efforts into getting GM to bring back Pontiac. GM can decide exactly what they want to do performance wise with Pontiac (what type of engine to put in them, etc.). We need to just focus on getting it back period. There is a website called http://www.bringpontiacback.org that is planning a business case to submit to GM about bringing back Pontiac. Check out the site. Don’t give up Pontiac fans! We can do this! Pontiac rules!
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@PontiacRulz Wait a sec, a non-informed third party is planning to write a business case for GM? Sorry man, but that’s just laughable.
For starters, they won’t be able to compile enough information to even begin drafting the financials, let alone figure out how much to allocate to various activities (such as R&D, manufacturing, design, development, etc.).
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Idk Alex but it’s hope. That’s all we have. Pontiac supporters will just have to keep showing GM how much we want our brand back and hope they bring it back sooner or later. It has an identity of performance-driven exciting sporty cars. GM could do a lot with Pontiac’s image and the demand is there. Hope a light bulb goes off in their head to bring it back.
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You have your Chevy people and you have your Pontiac people. Obviously Pontiac fans would buy the bird and Chev fans would buy the Camaro. Unless ,for example, a chev guy likes the looks of the firebird better then he would buy a firebird. Either way it’s a sale for GM and by having a Firbird and Camaro they increase their chance of a purchase. As far as how different the Camaro and Firebird look from one another…well thats would be up to GM but I’d hope they look very different from eachother.
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Being a lifelong Pontiac fan, Iβd love to see Pontiac back within the GM fold, but I am also aware of the many differences between the past and present that make it a difficult proposition. Iβve seen the basic economics and also have listened to passionate people like Jim Wangers describe the long and slow death of a great car. Here are my thoughts with some historical context added.
We all know the original hierarchy of the classic GM line-up: Chevy < Pontiac < Olds < Buick < Cadillac. This was a great business model in the sixties before the Japanese auto invasion. As a result of that foreign competition, GM has had to remain competitive. This required increasing the content and quality of its base car β Chevrolet. If you could buy a Honda or Toyota with the quality of a Buick but the cost of a Chevrolet (as you could in the 80βs), the choice was fairly simple. By GM narrowing the gap between Chevy and Cadillac largely through badge engineering, the BOP got squeezed with the resulting casualties. The most likely reason that Buick survived is the profit margin that can be commanded. Sure Pontiac sold many more cars than Buick, but the profit margins were much slimmer. To the general public, Pontiac is/was just a step above Chevy, whereas Buick is βjustβ a step below Cadillac. If you could spent $20k to build a car sold for $23k, or spend $24k to build a car sold for $35k, which would you choose? (figures are for illustration, and are my best guess.)
Pontiac couldnβt ask a financially solvent profit margin, because it didnβt have the right image. Trying to recreate that prestigious image Pontiac enjoyed in the 60βs would require a massive undertaking. Back then, they had Bunkie Knudsen, Pete Estes, John DeLorean, and ad/marketing guru Jim Wangers. All were passionate car guys that had a finger on the pulse of the youth market. The youth market is vastly different nowadays, and Chevy is leading the charge for GM in tapping into that demographic. There is no way they are going to bring Pontiac back to compete with Chevy for that market. Even the Pontiac of the glory days had to sneak things in as it was to be successful. The famous GTO was flown in under the radar as a mere option package β albeit a clever one.
Additionally, to create a full car line of performance cars is not feasible in this economic climate. Standards of performance have also risen in the past 40 years. To make Pontiac a performance leader would be cost prohibitive and also would be at the expense of the other GM brands. It just doesnβt make sense to resurrect a brand to offer a higher level of performance that could be offered in the existing brands more efficiently.All that said, If GM were to offer a Pontiac, it would likely need to be offered not as a make, but as a separate model (probably under the Chevy banner). It would need to reach out to an in-demand youth demographic that doesnβt conflict/compete with other GM offerings. And most importantly, the public demand HAS to be there, and GM needs to see more than just petitions and facebook comments.
Iβd love to see Pontiac come back, but only in a way that honors the legacy and pays proper tribute to its performance heritage. -
@Brian_E I think you’ve offered a realistic and unbiased analysis of the matter. I especially appreciate the part where you compare the content of Japanese vehicles to that of Chevy, which was a bargain-basement brand 10-20 years ago. This is exactly the reason for the colossal market shift in the industry over the last 2-3 decades that has resulted in the discontinuation of Pontiac and Olds. The fact that Lexus offers a vastly different luxury experience than BMW, Audi, and MB is the sole reason for Buick’s continued existence.
As for performance from GM as it related to Pontiac, Chevy is all over that market, as evidenced by today’s unveilings:
Concept CODE 130R
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/naias-2012-eassist-powered-chevrolet-code-130r-suggests-efficient-rwd-performance/Concept CODE 140S
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/naias-2012-chevrolet-tru-140s-concept-is-really-just-a-sexy-cruze-coupe/ -
I agree Brian_E, they would have to come back as true performance cars for an affordable price. I also understand that GM is going to need more than Facebook comments and petitions in order for them to think about Pontiac again. What do you recommend as a way to show GM the demand?
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About the only way I could think of would be for fans to put their money where their mouth is. Money talks.
If GM could be convinced to offer sometype of pledge campaign, that would be a way in the very least to GM to gauge public interest.
Check out the kickstarter website.
http://www.kickstarter.com/There, people/small businesses/artists offer incentives on a future product in return for some up front funding.
GM could offer a similar approach. Pontiac fans and followers could pledge a certain amount toward the creation of a Pontiac vehicle. If the threshold amount set by GM is reached, they would create and offer the car. The pledges would be collected only if the target amount set by GM is reached. Those that ‘donated’, would receive a corresponding discount off the price of the car. That’s one possibility, and could also help Pontiac fans to understand what is needed to relaunch their favorite car.
GM could offer individual campaigns (one for a solstice type, one for a G8 type, a GTO, Firebird, etc.) Even with this suggestion, It’s still up to GM, but it’s a way for them to see a truer sense of the demand, while still having relatively little skin in the game. -
Fair enough. PontiacRulz mentioned the website/organization, “Bring Pontiac Back.org”. I’ve posted on that website. About a year or two ago, I posted that I had a friend who questioned whether we Pontiac loyalists would commit to purchasing a new Pontiac, if GM demanded THAT as a precondition to its returning the brand. And I posted that I would strongly consider it. As I mentioned in a couple of posts on THIS thread, I’m a musclecar guy. I might add that I prefer Pontiac’s older musclecars. Yet I would consider committing to purchasing a NEW Pontiac, if GM were to demand THAT of a certain number of Pontiac loyalists as a precondition to bringing the brand back.
Furthermore, I would beg to differ with the notion that somehow we Pontiac loyalists are perhaps underestimating how difficult it would be for GM to revive the brand. What I have to say to that is: Hey, WE weren’t the ones who killed the brand. Many Pontiac loyalists like me have been purchasing ONLY Pontiacs all their lives. I would think that GM owes people like US a debt of gratitude. We’ve been loyal customers. I almost think that GM owes it to Pontiac’s legions of loyalists to bring the brand back. We’ve stood with that GM brand for decades. Obviously, GM doesn’t have a legal obligation to do that, but it would be great PR and damage-control. GM generated a TREMENDOUS amount of ill will by killing Pontiac.
1. Pontiac was NUMBER THREE in sales at GM, right behind Chevy and GMC.
2. Not only was Pontiac ahead of #4 Buick; it was outselling Buick TWO-TO-ONE. I
mean, it wasn’t even CLOSE.
3. Pontiac was a strong, iconic, legacy brand.
4. Pontiac had (and continues to have) a large, loyal following.
5. The Great Recession, which ultimately caused GM to kill Pontiac, is over. It’s been over for what, almost three years?
6. Last year GM passed Toyota to regain its position as the world’s #1 automaker. Therefore, GM is healthy again. GM can no longer say that it’s too “weak” to consider reviving Pontiac.So: Perhaps it WOULD be difficult for GM to revive Pontiac. However, given all that I’ve mentioned in this post, IT’S STILL THE THING TO DO. Not only that; as PontiacRulz mentioned earlier, the brand would surely sell. Also, GM doesn’t have to re-invent the wheel. Just as before, Pontiac can share the same engines and platforms as other GM brands. We’re trying to get GM to revive a BRAND, not create a new COMPANY featuring Pontiac as a TOTALLY different vehicle from the ground up. THAT wouldn’t be feasible, and that’s not what we’re asking. The Pontiac brand could be plugged right back in with GMC and Buick. GM wouldn’t even have to create new dealerships. Finally, we’re saying that Pontiac still has adequate demand to make it viable, and in Canada as well. (In fact, ESPECIALLY in Canada).
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Moanalua:
Believe it or not, I feel your pain. My first car was a 1972 GP that I still own along with a 2001 GP that is my daily driver. I inherited this love from my father who grew up in early 60βs Pontiacs and himself drove a β57 Chieftain in high-school. He currently has a 1972 Firebird Formula. My younger brothersβ first car was a 1975 T/A that we still have. To this day, my father and I go to Pontiac car shows and are thrilled to be involved with the hobby. Iβm glad to hear that you would consider a commitment to a new Pontiac. I am not in a financial situation to do that. I suspect you are in the minority, though. Based on the current status of Bringbackpontiac.org, the support is not strong enough to keep the website updated, so not likely able to convince a multi-billion dollar corporation to re-invest in a legacy brand.
Iβd love to continue to live in a world where horsepower is king and foreign competition was laughable, but sadly, that is not the current reality. Even the last Pontiac offerings did not offer the excitement and thrill of a Catalina 2+2, a RA IV GTO or the 455 HO of the early 70βs. Times have changed and demographics have evolved and values are different from the era of The Great One.
Regarding your 6 points:
(1&2) Pontiac sales were strong, but profit margins were slim. Buickβs profit margins were better than twice those of Pontiac, so the net profit was actually greater at Buick. Investing in a global brand is necessary for GM to be strong at home and abroad. Buick is strong in China, which is an extremely lucrative market right now and in the future.(3) Emphasis on the ‘was’. Looking at the final offerings from Pontiac:
G3 β same as the outgoing Aveo.
G5 β same as the outgoing Cobalt
G6 β same as the Malibu pre-redesign
G8 β Great car, but offered too late and not made in America.
Vibe β Toyota Matrix. (Personally, I think sharing platforms across companies dilutes both sides)
Torrent β Chevy Equinox.
Solstice β another great car and unique, but limited market.
The icons were iconic 40 years ago.(4) I canβt disagree there, except I question what we should be loyal to. I would rather be loyal to what made Pontiac great, which was no longer represented by the brand or the management of the brand at the end of its run. Even the bringpontiacback.org site is shortsighted in describing what killed Pontiac. Listen to Jim Wangers and youβll understand that the death began in the mid 70βs and was drug out throughout the 80βs with badge engineering sullying Pontiacs good name. I will be loyal to what made Pontiac great, but not blindly loyal and I wonβt support everything the General did with the brand.
(5& 6) Yes, GM is healthy again and has repaid the loans ahead of schedule. It could be argued that their success relied on the shedding of Pontiac. I hate to admit that, I really do. But in thinking about what was lost was: a Toyota, three outdated Chevys, an Aussie and a small roadster. Yes, we lost the iconic name, but the Icons themselves died a long time ago.
Why would GM want to revive a brand and share platforms that are successful without a Pontiac badge? The badge engineering is what killed Pontiac in the first place. What made Pontiac unique and special was the combination of their styling with their torque heavy engines. The engines are gone, and styling can only take one so far without a unique powertrain to complement it.
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1. Are you SURE that the Bring Pontiac Back website isn’t being updated due to lack of interest, and not some other reason? It’s had TECHNICAL issues in the past.
2. You said yourself that GM is a multi-billion dollar corporation. It therefore DOES have the resources to re-invest in Pontiac. And why should it? You answered that question, too: BECAUSE Pontiac IS a LEGACY brand.
3. Yes, I’m a musclecar guy, but that doesn’t mean GM HAS to revive Pontiac as a musclecar brand. GM can give a revived Pontiac any kind of line-up of vehicles that GM wants.
4. Yes, Buick’s profit-per-vehicle was higher than Pontiac’s. That’s because Buick is a more-upscale brand, so its vehicles COST more. Buick’s per-vehicle profit is also higher than Chevy’s; Chevy is still around.
5. Yes, Buick sells well in China. But Pontiac sold well in Canada. Doesn’t that make Pontiac SOMETHING of a global brand?
6. Not ALL of Pontiac’s iconic vehicles were from “40 years ago.” The G8 and Solstice were iconic.
7. Have to disagree with you regarding loyalty. I am loyal to the Pontiac brand. I like any and all Pontiacs. I maintain that ANY Pontiac is better than NO Pontiac at all.
8. We can’t dump on Pontiac for badge-engineering. EVERY brand does that. GMC is a badge-engineered Chevy. Examples from other automakers? Lexus is a badge-engineered Toyota. Infiniti is a badge-engineered Nissan. Acura is a badge-engineered Honda, and so on.
9. Let’s assume that GM killed Pontiac to stay alive during bankruptcy and the Great Recession. If we assume that, then Pontiac’s murder has ALREADY served its purpose. GM is no longer teetering on the edge of oblivion, and the Great Recession is over (it ended in May ’09). TIME TO BRING PONTIAC BACK.
10. Buick had only THREE models when Pontiac was murdered. At least Pontiac had more than that (five). There was also talk of a G8 sport truck at the time.
11. Why should Pontiac have to have a unique powertrain if Chevy and Buick don’t?
12. Bottom line: If there is adequate demand for Pontiac (and I believe there is), then it makes business sense to revive it. -
@Moanalua It seems that your goal is to revive Pontiac… just for the sake of reviving Pontiac… even if that results in inferior vehicles.
What gives me that impression? From your list above:
3. “Yes, I’m a musclecar guy, but that doesn’t mean GM HAS to revive Pontiac as a musclecar brand. GM can give a revived Pontiac any kind of line-up of vehicles that GM wants.”Now here I was thinking that we agreed that — in order to success in the marketplace — the new Pontiac would have to be something different and sporty. Would you welcome the old Chevy Aveo as a Pontiac? Or perhaps you’re saving up for an Aztek? Do you really not care about the way in which Pontiac makes a return?
I just have to go over your list and point out the many inaccuracies and misconceptions:
1. Who cares? The site has been inactive for months… looks like there isn’t as much enthusiasm as some assume.2. Having the resources doesn’t call for the necessity to use them. The same goes for a legacy brand. Should GM also revive Olds and Hummer? Those were “legacy”… and Hummer was legendary. Heck, so was Olds. Back in 1951!
3. Already addressed above.
4. Your thinking is way off here: Buick has a higher profit because it makes a luxury car. It’s a more lucrative space to be. The reason “Chevy is still around” is because it sold 7 vehicles for every 1 Pontiac, even during Pontiac’s heyday.
GM is a business; and the new GM, especially, is not in the game of making excuses for “this selling more than that” or “that selling more than this”. It seems to me that all of the reasons you mentioned in this bullet point are just that — excuses. In reality, not that many people bought Pontiacs.
5. Selling in Canada and the U.S. does not make a brand global. At the least, sales need to take place on more than two continents, if not all over the world. What’s more, auto sales in Canada are about one tenth their volume in the U.S. So being “more successful” there is like being successful in Australia: the market is too small to matter or make a dent.
And Buick isn’t halfway done with its reincarnation.
6. That’s a matter of opinion… but I’ll side with you on it.
7. This harkens back to point #3. Would you take an inferior product with a Pontiac badge?
8. “EVERY brand does that. GMC is a badge-engineered Chevy. Examples from other automakers? Lexus is a badge-engineered Toyota. Infiniti is a badge-engineered Nissan. Acura is a badge-engineered Honda, and so on.”
– Some of GMC vehicles are badge engineered with Chevys. This won’t be this way for long. Just wait until the next-gen Silverado and Sierra.
– “Lexus is a badge-engineered Toyota.” No, it’s not.
– “Infiniti is a badge-engineered Nissan.” No, it’s not.
– “Acura is a badge-engineered Honda, and so on.” Yes, it is.9. “Let’s assume that GM killed Pontiac to stay alive during bankruptcy and the Great Recession. If we assume that, then Pontiac’s murder has ALREADY served its purpose. GM is no longer teetering on the edge of oblivion, and the Great Recession is over (it ended in May ’09). TIME TO BRING PONTIAC BACK.”
Why do we need to assume that Pontiac was discontinued to keep GM alive? The decision to drop it was made in bankruptcy court… not before it. GM didn’t gain anything and didn’t save anything by dropping Pontiac. It’s not like they immediately laid off x amount of workers at the corporate or plant levels for having discontinued Pontiac.
It was dropped because GM could do it and felt it was time — strategically — to do so.
10. “Buick had only THREE models when Pontiac was murdered. At least Pontiac had more than that (five). There was also talk of a G8 sport truck at the time.”
What does this have to do with anything? Buick was being neglected in the same way as Pontiac. Buick was going to have an infusion of new product regardless of Pontiac.
And are you counting the marvelous G3, G5, and Torrent with the five Pontiac models? Those weren’t even halfway decent vehicles, but rather unnecessary abominations.
11. “Why should Pontiac have to have a unique powertrain if Chevy and Buick don’t?”
What’s the point of Pontiac without something unique? Are we going to go back to the days of badge-engineered Pontiacs, then? G3, G5, G6, and Torrent?
12. “Bottom line: If there is adequate demand for Pontiac (and I believe there is), then it makes business sense to revive it.”
But it doesn’t! Demand is one thing… effort (profit/loss/quality, etc.) is another.
Demand should never be the sole determining factor of the outcome of a business decision. It should come down to profit and loss.
In my opinion, re-introducing Pontiac will result in the detraction from the remaining brands’ efforts such as design, engineering, marketing, sourcing, etc. So we’ll get a question mark of a vehicle lineup that will most likely be the same as that offered by Chevy… while making everything else GM makes worse off. Does that sound like a good idea?
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I get your point Alex, but three points I have to respond to are when you said: 1) GM got rid of Pontiac not because of the bankruptcy but because they felt like it was time.— Alex that is wrong. It is know that GM wanted to keep Pontiac and have 5 core brands instead of the 4 but the govt said they could only have four core brands. Geting rid of Pontiac was something GM really didnt want to do. 2) You said that “GM didn’t gain anything and didn’t save anything by dropping Pontiac.”—-Alex, that is not true at all. GM is saving a lot of money by not having Pontiac around today. Also, GM did lose something when they got rid of Pontiac….they lost a lot of fans and customers. 3) You said Pontiac wasnt selling.—Well if u mean internationally then ya your right because Pontiac was a North American brand but if you mean in north American, you are WRONG! Pontiacs were GM’s 3rd best selling brand in the USA when it was phased out. I cant leave my house without seeing a crap load of Pontiacs everywhere I go, they are all over the roads……I just had to address those points.
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Alrighty:
1. “GM got rid of Pontiac not because of the bankruptcy but because they felt like it was time.— Alex that is wrong. It is know that GM wanted to keep Pontiac and have 5 core brands instead of the 4 but the govt said they could only have four core brands. Geting rid of Pontiac was something GM really didnt want to do.”
What do you mean it’s “wrong”, man? Were you physically present during the Chapter 11 proceedings? Were you there during board room meetings? How can you make that claim? And how can one say that GM — as company — wanted to do this or do that?
GM isn’t a person — it didn’t “want” to do anything. Here’s what really happens in most large organizations: there are factions that support one idea and other camps that support other ideas. Pontiac was an idea that was on its way out. And this is from many within GM’s ranks!
Furthermore, many incorrectly assume that “the government” is running GM… or that it has or had some kind of huge influence over operations. Again, there is only a small amount of truth to this. But for the most part, GM and several automotive task force folks took a hard look at its business. And decided that Pontiac had to go. It wasn’t a high-volume brand… and its profits were abysmal. So it was a lose-lose.
The fact that GM was hurting for cash meant that it needed to focus on what it can do right and what brought the largest return: Chevy, Buick, and Caddy. The government’s involvement is irrelevant, since the decisions made would have been made anyway by good business people. All “the government” did was help expedite the bankruptcy process.
2. “You said that “GM didn’t gain anything and didn’t save anything by dropping Pontiac.”—-Alex, that is not true at all. GM is saving a lot of money by not having Pontiac around today. Also, GM did lose something when they got rid of Pontiac….they lost a lot of fans and customers.”
Customers aside, how did GM save money by dumping Pontiac, exactly? Did they lay off a considerable amount of Pontiac employees? Did they close down Pontiac-only factories? How did GM “save”?
3. “You said Pontiac wasnt selling.—Well if u mean internationally then ya your right because Pontiac was a North American brand but if you mean in north American, you are WRONG!”
No, Pontiac was — in fact — NOT selling. It wasn’t selling well.
In its heyday (around 2002/2003), the brand topped out at 40,000 sales per month in the U.S. If it were a top-end luxury brand making a high profit margin per vehicle, that would be phenomenal. But that’s not what it was.
Pontiac was supposed to be a mainstream brand, but it didn’t have the volume or the profit margin to make business sense.
The brand wasn’t making any money but was a resource drain on GM. It’s as simple as that.
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We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Cool?
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alex, let me put the same questions to you that you put to PontiacRulz. Were YOU physically present during the Chapter 11 proceedings? Were YOU there during the boardroom meetings? The reason I ask is that I, too, had heard that GM would have preferred to keep Pontiac, but that the Feds twisted its arm.
As a corporation, GM IS, legally, like a person. That’s what incorporation is designed to do. Corporations, like people, CAN want or not want to do something. Incorporation is designed to give a corporation the same legal rights as a person.
I would agree that Pontiac, unfortunately, wasn’t a high-profit brand. But how can you say that it wasn’t a high-volume brand? It was #3 in sales at GM, and was outselling Buick two-to-one.
I’m inclined to challenge the idea that GM would have killed Pontiac anyway, even without the Feds requiring it. Pontiac was a strong legacy brand with a large following, and had potential.
“Pontiac wasn’t selling well.” What? We just said that it was #3 in sales, exceeded only by Chevy and GMC, and was outselling Buick two-to-one.
Yes, Pontiac was a mainstream brand, AND it had the volume to make business sense.
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Bravo Moanalua!
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@Moanalua — Having incorporated nine businesses so far in my lifetime and having a slight edification in business law, I’m well aware of the legal intricacies of a business. But that was not my point: the fact remains that a corporation is still NOT a person. It’s a legal entity… but it has no feelings.
So it constantly surprises me that individuals blatantly state that “GM wanted x, y, and z”. There are multiple levels of decision-making at most multinational companies, GM included. So while GM employee Joe Smith may have wanted item x, her colleague Jay Doe may have wanted item y. The point is that a company has backers and detractors of certain business ideas and decisions. I know that there were, indeed, folks within GM who were not fond of continuing to throw resources at Pontiac. End of story.
To your question: no, of course I was not present during the Chapter 11 proceedings, board meetings, etc. But neither were you, or @PontiacRulz. So for us to sit here and conjecture about what “GM wanted to do” and what “GM didn’t want to do” doesn’t lead to anything and doens’t help your argument and wishes to bring back Pontiac. Again, the point is that there were many within GM’s ranks who wanted to trim the brand and product portfolio in order to deliver a better product where it matters most. And there were those who didn’t agree with them. Perhaps one of these ideas got to GM’s primary decision makers first. Who knows?
Point is, GM got a ton of money in the bailout and had the added pleasure of having their eyes open in relation to what was and what wasn’t working for them. Pontiac wasn’t working.
Finally:
“Pontiac wasn’t selling well.” What? We just said that it was #3 in sales, exceeded only by Chevy and GMC, and was outselling Buick two-to-one.”It doesn’t matter if Pontiac was GM’s #3 or #303 best-seller.
The point is that Pontiac was selling poorly for what it was supposed to be — a mainstream product. At its best, Pontiac topped out at roughly 40,000 vehicle sales a month (some time in 2002 or 2003). By comparison, Chevrolet sold over 161,000 vehicles in December of 2011. It sold close to 200,000 in the month that Pontiac delivered its 40,000-some unit sales. Does those numbers seem a success to you?
Lastly, you keep bringing up Buick and the fact that Pontiac was outselling it. This is irrelevant, as Buick is a premium/luxury brand with a wider profit margin. This margin will continue to grow over the next decade — as Buick introduces an all-new line-up and keeps moving upmarket to, in my opinion, be a direct Lexus competitor.
Buick allows GM the luxury of efficiency: it doesn’t have to run its plants at full capacity to make enough vehicles and meet a higher break-even. In other words, the break-even occurs at a much lower volume for Buick than it does for Pontiac and Chevy. For Buick, the plants don’r require strenuous and inefficient overtime (that more often than not leads to poor quality), and the market doesn’t get a dump of over-supply and not-in-demand vehicles. So can we avoid comparing the sales of Buick to those of Pontiac? You wouldn’t compare Lexus sales to those of Pontiac, would you?
Now, to reuse your closing statement:
Yes, Pontiac was a mainstream brand. But it failed to achieve mainstream sales success due to low volumes — and was therefore discontinued.
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If it wasn’t for the bankruptcy it wouldnt be gone. It was selling good but due to the GM bankruptcy, Pontiac went. Chevy is the volume brand, GMC 2nd in sales and doesnt cost a whole lot to operate as a brand, Buick sells in China and Caddy is the luxury top of line for GM. Pontiac was just in the wrong position at the wrong time (sales wise and because it didnt sell outside of NA). Alex how can you compare the 200,000 sales of Chevy to the 40,000 of Pontiac? Chevy has SUV’s, trucks, and and a huge lineup of all kinds of vehicles v.s. Pontiac which had what 5 vehicles at the time. You cant compare that. Pontiac wasnt expected to sell the amount of vehicles that Chevy did—-chevy’s a mainstream brand from compacts to suburbans and Pontiac was a sports brand, of course the chevy brand is going to sell more. Bottom line, Pontiac would still be around if not for the bankruptcy. It was selling the way it was supposed to but was just in the wrong situation when GM went into bankruptcy.
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Hey man — a sale is a sale; or in Vin Diesel’s words: it doesn’t matter if you win by an inch or a mile — winning is winning.
We were first comparing Pontiac to Chevy and how it was the third best-selling brand in the GM stable. Now you’re telling me it’s not fair to make that comparison. Ultimately, Pontiac ended its life with sub-par vehicles in the G3, G5, G6, Vibe, and Torrent; the G8 and Solstice were great — but weren’t enough… and may have as well been Chevys.
That said, I’m surprised Pontiac even got as far as 40,000 monthly units with that lineup, especially considering the G8 and Solstice were ΓΌber-niche vehicles.
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Another question Alex…If Pontiac was still around, would you have a “Pontiac” tab on the blog page?
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Absolutely would. But no Pontiac news + no demand thereof = no button. :-bd
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Remember in the early 2000’s though there was the Grand Prix, Bonneville, Grand Am. Three awesome cars that weren’t rebadges.
But even if Pontiac is gone, cars like I mentioned above and especially the GTO, Firebird/Trans Am, Cheiftan, Catalina, Le Mans, Star Cheif, Tempest and so many others….heck even the Banshee will live on FOREVER! To me Pontiac= America and it’s best days car wise and generally.
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No Pontiac new, true….but no demand? NOT TRUE! There is plenty of demand for Pontiac as a brand to come back and that’s a fact.
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I wasn’t referring to market demand for vehicles, but rather demand for news, rumors, etc. that doesn’t exist for the brand…
Not sure how you can say “not true” to there being no demand of Pontiac vehicles… can we quantify this?
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Just go on Pontiac’s Facebook page for example, there is a crap load of people wanting Pontiac back. Go on YouTube, Google the topic…it’s everywhere.
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Alex you and I always have the best conversations don’t we? I like you for that π
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Thanks mate. The feeling is mutual π
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So does that mean you’ll let me take you for a ride in my Pontiac? π haha
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Lolz. Yes, but only if we drive to the Melting Pot and you pay for dinner. I’ll stop there π
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Oh no! I didnt mean it that way dude! haha I was just trying to be funny π
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Yes I know. So was I. You didn’t get it?
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I thought you were just trying to be funny too but I wasnt sure haha. And I had no idea what the melting pot was so I had to look it up haha.
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Moanalua:
Just wanted to say that your response confused me a bit. I had assumed that you were wanting a return of Pontiac so GM would offer the performance that was ingrained in its legacy. As I now understand it, you want a Pontiac badged car with little regard to what type of car they offer? Is that correct? I can’t think of any Pontiac fans that I’ve talked to that want Pontiac to be anything but performance oriented. You’re the first. It sounds like you just want the name on a car – any car. If that is how you feel about it, then our opinions differ by more than I thought.The Pontiacs that I loved had a distinctive style and performance. Here are some of my favorite Pontiacs and why:
Obviously for me the 1971/72 Grand Prix’s. Love the long hood and styling (A theme of ‘three’ ran throughout the car). The 455 was/is a torque monster engine. (Many high-school memories for me)
1972 Formula – The twin hood scoops and upfront grille look awesome to me. Throw on T/A wheel spats and spoiler and it really comes to life. Plus, the Pontiac engines were hard to beat, with the most performance options of the GM products.
1964 GTO – A favorite because it was arguably the firing gun of the Muscle car era.
Fiero – It took a look at performance from the opposite side of the HP/Weight ratio. A small two-seater mid-engined car. The only mid-engined car mass produced in the US. The ’88GT was the best looking of the best offerings.
1997-2003 Grand Prix – I’ve got a soft spot for GP’s. They had a combination of performance and style that was uniquely pontiac. (I’m sure people at Chevrolet were upset that the GP had a higher HP figures than the comparable MC) Plus there is a performance parts market for them that rivals the famous Buick Grand Nationals of the 80’s (which used a similar 3.8 blown motor.)
Solstice – Another one of the smaller sporty vehicles. I wish they had marketed this more aggressively at the Miata crowd.
G8 – This is a favorite of mine just because it was one of the last things the Pontiac division was allowed to do properly. Even though it’s similar to the GTO from a few years before, this was executed better and didn’t try to capitalize on a legendary nameplate. It stood well on its own, and would have done significantly better if it was released in 2005 or 6.
I have specific reasons why I loved Pontiac cars, bringing back the name only wouldn’t cut it for me.
Alex had responded to many of your points so I won’t duplicate him. I will only add a few extra reasons why I am not pleading with GM to bring it back.
1. Pontiac has been a rogue division of sorts since 1959. I’ve read John DeLoreans Autobiography and Jim Wangers excellent Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit. Pontiac had a history of being restricted by Corporate. In the 60’s, they followed the axiom: “Its better to ask for forgiveness than to beg for permission.” That’s the only way they were successful within GM’s structure. DeLorean was promoted from Head of Pontiac Division to Head up Chevrolet. (illustrating the pecking order inside the General) After he left Pontiac, James McDonald succeeded him and, along with those that followed him, was a corporate yes man who cared more about his personal careers than cars. McDonald is also responsible for introducing the badge engineering that took place in the 80’s. My point is that Pontiac had been in decline for decades.
2. I don’t want a weak Pontiac. I want a strong performing Pontiac that has its own Identity. GM currently has in place a car for nearly every segment. Chevrolet and Buick both have been trying to put out performance offerings to fill any gaps that Pontiac left. It will take a good five years for Buick to establish any performance cred. To quote Bunkie: “You can sell a young man’s car to an old man, but you cannot sell an old man’s car to a young man.” Given time, Buick can change that, but it won’t be quick. Chevy has incorporated aggressive features into there newer designs, which should help to woo many (not all) Pontiac customers. Given the direction of Chevy and Buick, GM has not left any space for Pontiac to fit in. If you create something other than a performance oriented car and call it a Pontiac, it would be a Pontiac in name only, and I don’t see the point in that myself.
3. In order to bring back Pontiac at this point, you would likely need to hire a whole new staff. It would not make business sense to pull away or share R&D, Engineering, Sales, Marketing (which is contracted out, I think), Quality Control, and Senior Executives. Sharing distorts their focus. Additionally, the only logical way I see to manufacture the cars, would be to retool existing facilities and complicate the logistics with existing manufacturing lines. I’m sure it’s even more complex than I’ve just described. I can see how eliminating Pontiac helped to streamline the operation. I’m not thrilled about it, but given what Pontiac was producing at the end, I find it easy to say good-bye to the G3, G5, G6, Vibe, and Torrent. I miss the Solstice and G8, but am optimistic that something will replace them in the Chevy or Buick stable.
Crap that was long…. Sorry. (Thanks Alex for the autosave)
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Good post Brian_E. It’s just sad that we got the G3, G5, etc. when we could have been getting true Pontiacs. GM destroyed Pontiac by building what it did. GM should have done Pontiac better.
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Brian_E: I can’t understand how ANYONE who truly loves the Pontiac brand can EVER say–under ANY circumstances–that he doesn’t want it back. That simply blows my mind. And let me clear-up the confusion: YES, I want Pontiac back; IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM that GM pleases. Beggars can’t be choosy. I INSIST that ANY Pontiac is better than NO PONTIAC AT ALL. Until Pontiac is back, everyone who drives a Pontiac (including me) is driving an orphan. That’s a stigma that the Pontiac brand doesn’t deserve, and neither do we who own and drive them. Since when was half a loaf better than none? How can it be better that the Pontiac brand remain in the grave? Such a great brand should not have been PUT in the grave in the FIRST place. Are we to enjoy saying, “I love a DEAD car brand”? The Pontiac brand deserves better, and so do we. Let’s assume that GM brings the brand back, but not with its great former musclecar/performance vehicles. I INSIST: Better THAT than DEAD.
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Oops: What I meant to say is, “Since when was no bread at all, better than half a loaf?”
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Thanks PontiacRulz!
Moanalua:
I do want Pontiac back. It is just that, based on what I’ve learned, it doesn’t seem realistic to expect GM to resurrect it. And I feel that I need to have some standards. I can’t accept just anything that would tarnish the legacy.This may be a poor analogy, but here goes..
To me, getting Pontiac back in name only is like a guy who finds his true love. They soon marry and enjoy a wonderful life together. He loves her completely. Her curves, her scent, the way she whispers in his ear, the way she turns him on, her reliable devotion to taking care of him, the way she makes him feel about himself, etc. However, down the path of life the wife gets cancer. The sweet life becomes a struggle. It doesn’t change the way they feel about each other, and they stand together until her final moments.
The man is now distraught and grieves her loss. He longs for her back. Eventually those longings become cries for anyone – it just has to have her name. He then finds another woman with the same name and they soon court and marry. However, she is different. Her curves are not inspiring to him, he doesn’t care for her perfume, her voice is like Fran Drescher, even her attempts to rev him up are more functional than exciting, and when they’re out in public he is somewhat embarrassed. She tries to satisfy him, and he tries to reassure himself, “Hey, at least she has the same name.” Other women see him as a fine catch and try to woo him, but he is dedicated to his betrothed. Even though each of those women possess some of the qualities that were enchanting with his first love, he is committed to the name.My point being.. the name is nothing. The car is everything. No loaf is better than a moldy loaf.
I wish Pontiac wasn’t put in the grave. But as others who were within Pontiac during their glory days have said, GM had been unwittingly digging the grave since the 70’s.
While it does pain me to say that Pontiac is gone, I can remember the good times with fondness and reverence… Much like a widower about his deceased wife. -
But if we DO want Pontiac back, it won’t do to talk about why it “shouldn’t” or “couldn’t” come back, right? It that’s the case, we ALL might as well give up. And while I appreciate your analogy, I don’t think I could ever see any Pontiac as a “physically inferior woman,” or even as a moldy loaf of bread. I appreciate the logic, but it loses something in the translation to Pontiac. I think the bottom line is this: This thread is about bringing Pontiac back. It would be a minor miracle if the brand DOES return. Let’s not indulge in “nattering nabobs of negativism.” If we love the brand, let’s all pull together to try to bring it back. Otherwise, why are we taking the time to post?
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If KIA and Hyundai (sp?) and Suzuki and Audi and the multitude of Japanese brands can introduce new brands, seemingly at will – surely Pontiac can be resurrected – if only for a niche market – but certainly a full lineup is possible. All GM has to do is follow the Korean/Japanese/German playbook – with cars like the G8, which was better than any of them while cheaper to boot. Part of the playbook would be to follow their labor relations rules – no union – comparable salary and benefits to their workers – no more $70K to thread lugnuts. As for me, no more GM cars in my lineup until Pontiac returns !
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gcmeninsr: Good for you! And welcome to this thread! It’s so nice to have aboard, another feisty Pontiac loyalist who refuses to make excuses for OTHER brands, who doesn’t try to JUSTIFY Pontiac’s murder, and who refuses to make excuses as to why Pontiac “shouldn’t” or “can’t” return. God knows we need more folks like you on this thread. This is SUPPOSED to be a pro-Pontiac, “bring the brand back” thread, but you’d never know it by reading some of the posts here.
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Moanalua: Sorry for my negative natterings, I’m just trying to be realistic based on the information I have. And based on that info laid out in my previous posts, it is highly unlikely that Pontiac will be back. I’m only sharing my personal viewpoint within the forum. That’s what I thought the forum was for. This thread is titled – “Who thinks it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again?” I am talking about Pontiac from my own experience. I want the best for Pontiac. In music, sports and a few other areas, you always hear about those that should have quit years ago. But, by continuing on, they hurt their reputation and ‘legacy’. I want Pontiac remembered for the greatness that it was -not the poor corporate decisions putting a bad mark on it. Case in point: Pontiac Lemans. The 60’s and early 70’s models were extremely competitive and only overshadowed by their GTO sibling. The 89-93 was a POS and had no business with that name.
I love Pontiac for what they were, not what they became. If GM did/would bring back the nameplate, I don’t want to see some half-assed attempt to appease vocal fans screaming for its ressurection. Based on GM’s track record with Pontiac and their devotion to promoting Chevrolet, I don’t see Pontiac returning as a class leader in affordable performance.To reprint part of PontiacRulz opening post:
“GM needed to get rid of Pontiac so it could get its act together, we all know this. But I think it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again. GM is missing an important segment now, the affordble performance.”The gap in the affordable performance segment is slowly closing. GM has already taken steps to fill the Pontiac void with Chevy. Asking GM to put an arrowhead on any car projected to get a bowtie (or tri-shield) is like a knight telling the king that there’s room for one more on the throne.
As far as a niche market is concerned, that may be Pontiacs’ only possible hope. Still, I haven’t heard any convincing arguments for any car that includes the intended market, the logistics, manufacturing, projected sales numbers, etc. And if such a case exists, what is the likelihood that Cheverolet won’t demand it? Sure, I’d love to see a good performance Pontiac come off the assembly line again, but based on GM actions thus far, it’s about as probable as Steven Hawking walking again, as unfortunate as that sounds. I’m not willing to get my hopes up.
I do want to say that I respect you for having such hope that I can’t see.
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I have to agree with Brian_E. I wouldn’t want Pontiac coming back as a boring no personality brand. Pontiac should only come back if it will live up to it’s performance character. If GM brought Pontiac back as nothing but boring cars that might as well be Chevys, then I’d rather Pontiac not come back at all. Pontiac has a performance image. Without that image it wouldn’t have any character, it would just be a boring car brand and there would be no point in bringing it back. When you think about Pontiac your supposed to think PERFORMANCE AND EXCITEMENT! Good ole American muscle from a good ole American brand, PONTIAC!
Also, as the creator of this discusssion, I have seen posts from people on here saying that this discussion is only for people who want Pontiac back. That is not true. This discussion is for everyone whether you support it coming back or not. I created this topic so that people can voice their opinions. So far this is the most popular post on the whole forum and I am very happy I made such a popular topic π Thanks to everyone who keeps this popular and fun discussion alive.
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Fair enough. What disturbs me, though, is that sometimes this thread seems to take-on the character of a boxing match rather than a forum where folks share their positions with respect, consideration, and decorum. Sometimes I wonder what ever happened to internet etiquette. I hope that we aren’t going to attempt to pass-off rudeness, sarcasm, and dogmatism as virtues. I can imagine some folks attempting to spin those traits and re-cast them as “candidness,” “authenticity,” “transparency,” etc. I invite you all to re-read all the posts from the beginning and come to your own conclusions.
PontiacRulz, it seems (at least SO far) that only you, gcmeninsr, and I, think that Pontiac has even an ice cube’s chance in hell of returning. I respect your position that unless Pontiac returns as a performance brand, then it might as well not return at all. I believe a few other folks on this thread feel the same as you do. I’m just worried that if we demand that GM jump through too many hoops, it might just decide to tell us where to go. Apparently, some folks are willing to tell GM, “Bring Pontiac back, but not only that; bring it back MY way.” I’m not so sure that GM would take very kindly to that. It seems that such a course of action on our part would create a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Again, several of you have said, “If Pontiac can’t come back as a performance brand, then it might as well not come back at all.” Then GM might say, “Fine. If you’re going to attempt to dictate to us HOW the brand should return, then we WON’T bring it back.” That’s my fear. Ever since GM murdered Pontiac, I’ve felt the need to go on-line and do my small part to help build-up a critical mass of consumer demand that might compel GM to bring the brand back. I simply cannot imagine Pontiac never returning again. Such a bleak prospect is unacceptable. After DECADES of being a proud Pontiac owner, I cannot glibly say, “Well, since GM decided not to bring the brand back MY way, I don’t CARE that it’s gone for good.” Unacceptable. gcmeninsr, what do YOU think?
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My understanding is that Pontiac outsold Audi/Volvo combined (??) – not to mention Buick & Cadillac – how is it not viable to bring them back ?? IMO it was soley BO’s decision to nix the brand – as with incandescents – and put our $$ into Solandra – great management decision.
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@gcmeninsr So you’re comparing Pontiac, a brand with a very slim profit margin, to luxury automakers with a higher margin than Cadillac… How does that make any sense?
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alex, I’d like to address a previous claim you made that Buick is a luxury brand, since you mentioned luxury automakers in the post above. My position is that Buick is not a luxury brand, but a mainstream brand. When we describe Buick as a luxury brand, that gives Buick a free pass, and I for one won’t do that. Buick is the most luxurious of GM’s mainstream brands, to be sure. But it’s a mainstream brand nonetheless. CADILLAC is GM’s one and only luxury brand.
gcmeninsr, thanks for responding. I support you comparison of Pontiac to Audi and Volvo. It underscores the outrageousness of Pontiac’s murder. On other Pontiac-related websites, I’ve read that Pontiac’s sales were roughly equal to BMW’s. BMW wasn’t given the free pass that its per-unit profit is higher, or that it’s more luxurious than Pontiac. Neither should Audi, Volvo, OR Buick. Bottom line: Pontiac was a pretty popular brand. That’s but ONE reason why it should be revived.
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I’d respectfully disagree.
If anything, Buick is a premium brand at the moment. However, most of the current lineup was rushed to market post-bankruptcy to fill in the gaps.
Internally, GM is hard at work in making Buick a true luxury brand to go head-to-head with Lexus. You will see the first real Buicks, rather then rush jobs, soon with the Envision and next-gen LaCrosse.
The thinking is that there are two primary forms of luxury: performance luxury and pure luxury.
Performance lux is done by BMW, Audi, Infiniti, and MB, while pure lux is Lexus. Drive a Lexus back-to-back with any of the performance lux brands and you’ll see the vastly different experience.
Buick is for the pure luxury side. Caddy is for performance.
Like I said, Buick is a premium brand right now with a strong objective to move up and become a luxury player.
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OK. I agree that Lexus is pure lux, and that Buick is targeting Lexus. Now: IF we can assume–at least for the moment–that Pontiac DOES return, why can’t it go after BMW, as it HAD been doing since 1973? I agree with you that BMW is performance lux. Well: Pontiac was a performance brand, right? And Pontiac has had elements of luxury. Look at such models as the old Luxury Le Mans. And you and I agreed earlier that while Pontiac can’t snag folks who CAN afford a BMW, it CAN snag those who CAN’T.
While I’m at it, I’d like to offer more evidence that Buick is–and always has been–a mainstream brand. As you may know from my previous posts, I’m a musclecar guy, so I’d like to think I know a thing or two about musclecars. Let’s select the year 1973, just out of a hat. In 1973, Buick had a midsize musclecar, the Gran Sport. That, of course, was Buick’s answer to Pontiac’s midsize musclecar, the GTO. In fact, Buick had the Gran Sport–again, a midsize musclecar– ever since 1965! (Pontiac had the GTO since ’64). If Buick wasn’t a mainstream brand, why did it have that musclecar? We’re agreed that Cadillac IS a luxury brand, right? Well, Cadillac DIDN’T have a midsize musclecar during that era. In fact, Cadillac didn’t even HAVE a midsize model, period. The fact that Buick DID have not only a midsize model (Skylark, and then after ’72, Century), but a midsize musclecar, proves that Buick was INDEED a mainstream brand, competing with OTHER mainstream brands like Pontiac, in the midsize market as well as the musclecar market. Cadillac–the luxury brand–competed in NEITHER. The only difference is that the Skylarks and Centurys were SUPPOSED to be more “luxurious” than the Pontiac Tempests and Le Manses (Pontiac’s midsize models) and the Gran Sports were supposed to be more “luxurious” than the GTOs, because Buick was more “upscale” than Pontiac. More-upscale, more luxurious, but a mainstream brand nonetheless. Buick wasn’t a luxury brand per se, for if it were, then like Cadillac it not only wouldn’t have had a musclecar during that era, it wouldn’t even have had a midsize model, period.
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To compete with a certain brand/automaker, Pontiac would actually have to take potential sales away from that brand. So what we’re talking about here is Pontiac taking willing, able, and ready-to-buy BMW customers. And that’s just ludicrous.
What’s more realistic – as you said – is for those who can’t afford BMW to get a Pontiac… and at that point, Pontiac isn’t competing with BMW; they’re competing in a separate space for a different customer — one who wouldn’t have bought a BMW in the first place. So again, Pontiac wouldn’t compete with BMW… it would compete with other mainstream-priced brands/makers.
As for Buick, times have changed — and are a’changing still. In 1973, Lexus was non-existent… heck, Cadillac was a completely different form of luxury back then. And Buick was totally different back then, as well. The examples of luxury I presented earlier are in the “now” — and have most likely changed significantly over the last four decades.
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“If KIA and Hyundai (sp?) and Suzuki and Audi and the multitude of Japanese brands can introduce new brands, seemingly at will – surely Pontiac can be resurrected – if only for a niche market – but certainly a full lineup is possible. All GM has to do is follow the Korean/Japanese/German playbook – with cars like the G8, which was better than any of them while cheaper to boot. Part of the playbook would be to follow their labor relations rules – no union – comparable salary and benefits to their workers – no more $70K to thread lugnuts. As for me, no more GM cars in my lineup until Pontiac returns!”
Looks like you’ll be missing out on some pretty great vehicles!
Other than that, which Japanese/Korean automaker is “introducing new brands, seemingly at will”?
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Moanalua:
If I’ve been overly adversarial or rude, I sincerely apologize. My intent was to offer my opinions and my reasoning for them. Rereading my comments and yours, I also wrote why I disagreed with you. I wasn’t trying to discount your opinion, only hoping that you would understand my point of view. Maybe I haven’t worked hard enough to see your side.If we want Pontiac back, then we need to convince GM that it is an advantagous and ‘right’ thing to do. Doing that requires us to understand what GM considers, ‘right’. In my understanding, GM, in the very least, considers ‘right’ by profit. It is not advantagous to be unprofitable (unless it leads to a more profitable long term goal).
So, HOW can we convince GM that Pontiac will provide a more profitable solution than what they currently offer?
First, I would think we would need to present a business case that provides a compelling financial incentive for GM to revive the Pontiac Brand.
1. What does the Pontiac name have that can’t be duplicated by the existing makes?
2. What kind of car does that represent, and why is it best manufactured as a Pontiac?
3a. What is the size of the sales potential for Pontiac not realized with current GM products?
3b. What is the expected sales volume?
4. How would the brand be marketed to those group?
5. What would be required of GM to invest in this proposal?
6. What are some possible solutions for staffing that do not detract or weaken the existing brands?
6a. Where could R&D staffing come from?
6b. How can testing be performed with minimal distruption of other makes? Could testing of Pontiac vehicles better benefit other makes?
6c. Who could handle the marketing campaign?7. What are some possible solutions to tooling and manufacturing?
7a. Where could the cars be manufactured to minimize distruptions or to add synergy to existing line-ups?
7b. What are the tooling costs? How could those be minimized?8. Would sales resume at Buick/GMC dealers?
9. Does that fit with the Buick/GMC market? If not, what is another alternative with minimal risk and investment?These questions are just a starting point. Obviously, no one person has the answers to these questions. Maybe there are others in and around the group of Pontiac loyalists who can help. I would think if we are to convince GM to do this, then they need to see it as an advantage.
Being a former employee of one of Koch Industries companies, I have had a small amount of training in Market Based Management. One of the things I took away from that is the realization that there are three primary things required for people and/or companies to act:
a. A dissatisfaction with the current state or situation.
b. A vision of a better state or situation.
c. A path or means to acheive that state.Now, if we can present to GM a vision of a better situation WITH Pontiac that makes them dissatisfied WITHOUT Pontiac, and if we can show them how it can be done, then there could be a future for Pontiac.
So, how do you want to start gathering the information?
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@Brian_E Seems like a great starting point for a business plan/proposal. One would need to dig around for data to support some claims and also have a good understanding of GM’s financial model/structure and expenses.
PS: Perhaps @Moanalua is referring to me in regards to the rude part. For some reason, my writing tends to come across that way on occasion. π
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Pontiac was great in its heyday, but it is DEAD! Actually GM needs to think about axing GMC and positioning Buick to be the sport-luxury step up from Chevy. Chevrolet, like other competitors, will improve interior quality so you don’t need another redundant brand.
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To all: Please don’t be offended by my earlier rant about rudeness and internet etiquette. Please be assured that I wasn’t trying to offend anyone. And Brian_E, if you look at your posts, you are probably the most polite person on this thread; I certainly wasn’t trying to implicate you. And by the way, if I myself am guilty of rudeness, please call me on it. I should certainly be held to the same standards as everyone else. Again, I didn’t mean to offend anyone, so if anyone WAS offended, I apologize.
Brian_E, when I read your three conditions that require companies to act, I thought of PontiacRulz and I, because he and I seem to be the most dissatisfied folks on this thread, regarding the current situation of “Pontiaclessness.” And as PontiacRulz and I have said, the evidence of this dissatisfaction is ALL OVER the internet. So, it seems pretty clear that the first condition has been met. Now, not EVERYONE is dissatisfied with the situation; CuriousObserver is obviously OK with it. But again, if you surf the ‘net for pro-Pontiac sites, you’ll see that MANY folks AREN’T. Go ask PontiacRulz, and he’ll tell you about the MASSIVE dissatisfaction engendered by Pontiac’s absence.
The second condition is pretty obvious; MOST of us on this thread would like to see Pontiac return, so THAT’S a condition that we can articulate pretty clearly: A better state of affairs would see the RETURN of Pontiac.
The THIRD condition is the doozy. It seems that we just CAN’T agree on how Pontiac should return. And again, there are some folks on this thread who think that Pontiac not only SHOULDN’T return, but CAN’T return. Just some thoughts off my cuff: Pontiac was around less than three years ago. It HAD been around for many decades. I find it very hard to believe that the market has changed SO MUCH in less than three years, that Pontiac is now forever out of the question. I simply don’t buy that, PARTICULARLY when it had such a large following, and was right behind GMC at #3. To my knowledge, no one on this thread is with GM’s marketing division. I don’t know that anyone can spell-out the calculus of what it would take to bring Pontiac back. I have to suggest that we leave THAT to GM. For OUR part, I think a better role for us is to let GM know that a LOT of folks want Pontiac back; not everyone, and obviously not everyone on this thread. But throughout the US–and in Canada, too–a LOT of folks want Pontiac back. Again, PontiacRulz can tell us about how GM is being bombarded with entreaties to bring the brand back.
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No worries, Moanalua. I appreciate your passion for the brand. Having an Engineering background, I guess I’m more pragmatic, and that often leads me to shoot down ideas quickly.
I agree, that third condition IS a doozy.
Now, try to look at it from GM’s view. If you want THEM to act, the three conditions apply. They need to be dissatisfied with their current situation and also convinced that including Pontiac is the better vision. That is what they need to be sold on. And then there is the question of HOW do they acheive that vision? I think if Pontiac is to come back there must be some unification on what Pontiac will be and what the target market will be.
GM won’t go in blindly under the assumption “If you build it, they will buy.” That is 1980’s GM thinking.GM needs a well-defined business case built on facts and supporting information. There are many voices shouting for Pontiac, but this isn’t a concert where we chant really loud for an encore.
I can’t think of any brand that’s been ressurrected (Except Bugatti). Specific models maybe, but not entire brands. This is something unprecedented, so the case must be strong to convince GM to go where noone else has gone before. Maybe it would be easier to focus on one model. The Trans-am would be the easiest with the Camaro out there already, but still a difficult proposition requiring a solid business case.
If the pro Pontiac sites coordinate a unified effort on a single model, that could gain some traction if the business case is solid. But I can’t see GM acting without financial details.
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Brian_E: The point I’ve been trying to make for some time on this thread is that GM ITSELF is in the best position to determine the financial details. Who better to determine those details than GM’s own marketing experts and bean-counters? For US to suggest a business plan to GM would be condescension. If you look back at my posts, my position is that OUR role is to show GM that there is ADEQUATE DEMAND for the brand’s return. alex posted that that shouldn’t be the basis for such a decision. That bucks Econ 100. We’re talking classic SUPPLY AND DEMAND. As an Econ major, I’d like to think I know what I’m talking about here. If there is ADEQUATE DEMAND for a good or service, then in a free-market economy (such as we have here), a merchant or business will SUPPLY that good or service. What PontiacRulz in particular–and I–have been suggesting is that there is ADEQUATE DEMAND for Pontiac, to make the return of the brand feasible. AND–in the case of Pontiac–there are some NON-PECUNIARY considerations as well:
1. Pontiac was no also-ran brand. It was a strong LEGACY brand. The Pontiac brand has NON-PECUNIARY VALUE to GM.
2. The Pontiac brand wasn’t murdered due to low sales, per se. It was #3, right behind GM. It was murdered because of the Great Recession. I.e., chances are that the brand might still be around but for the Recession. The Recession has been OVER for almost three years.
3. Pontiac’s following was LARGE.
4. Pontiac’s following consists, for the most part, of “YOUNGER” persons with a musclecar/performance-car bent. These tend to be more passionate, on the whole, than Olds’ following, for example. When GM murdered Pontiac, the nature of Pontiac’s following is such that there was a VERY IMPETUOUS reaction. What I’m suggesting is that–due to the NATURE of the Pontiac brand, and the demographic of its customers–Pontiac is a PASSION, not just a typical car brand.
5. My understanding is that GM has ALREADY lost approximately 45% of Pontiac’s customers to non-GM brands. I believe that a large portion of those defectors can be WON BACK if GM resurrects Pontiac. BUT: The longer GM takes, the MORE TIME those defectors have, to become enamored of the non-GM brands they’ve defected to.Pontiac has NON-PECUNIARY VALUE to GM. PontiacRulz and I are but TWO Pontiac loyalists who want the brand back in the worst way. Try googling “BRING BACK PONTIAC”, and see what you get. I would estimate that there must be THOUSANDS of Pontiac loyalists just like he and I, and God knows how many more in Canada, where Pontiac sold well. For GM, reviving Pontiac is more than just a cold, calculating business decision. It’s DAMAGE CONTROL/PUBLIC RELATIONS: Bringing back to the fold, Pontiac’s large following that was ANGERED by Pontiac’s murder. As alex mentioned in one of his posts, it’s a uber-competitive market out there. I would suggest that that cuts both ways: In such a business climate, GM cannot afford to alienate Pontiac’s legions of customers much longer. GM is NOT the only automaker in the world OR the U.S.
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For the most part GM has already alienated the Saturn and Pontiac legions. I’ll buy a GM car if they start treating people the way SATURN did in sales and evan more in the service dept. Would I like to see the Saturn and or Pontiac line-up again? Hell yes but like I said, “it’s not going to happen in my life time”.
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Moanalua, If Pontiac goes for BMW, Chevy would be the only mainstream brand out of 5 GM brands since the rummer is that GMC is moving upscale. No offence to Pontiac fans, but when you ask a foreign car driver about Pontiac, most of them reply that they can’t complete with Asian mainstream brands like Honda, Hyundai, etc. and yet you want Pontiac to compete with BMW (a luxury performance)? Also, how many Pontiac customers won’t buy another Pontiac just because GM killed it once? If GM to bring it back, some folks would think that GM could kill it again.
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I disagree that demand is the only thing required for GM to act on. But, I’ll go along with it for the purposes of this comment.
GM will need hard numbers of potential buyers of Pontiac. In order to justify the demand, they need more than just fans, they need buyers. I would sincerely hope the loyalists number in the thousands. It better be closer to 500,000.
If GM were to react to demand, they would need firm substantiated numbers of people meeting all of the following criteria:
1. Pontiac fans (duh!) π
2. Not willing to purchase any other GM product.
If GM already builds something they will buy, there is no point in making a Pontiac.
3. Willing to buy ANY Pontiac.
I seriously doubt that a true fan is willing buy just any Pontiac. I also believe that it IS our job to tell them what car to build. How else will they know WHAT the demand is for. Again, for the sake of discussion, I will assume that they just want a red arrowhead.
4. Financially able and likely to purchase at least one Pontiac vehicle within the first three years of its rebirth. GM isn’t going to just give everyone a Pontiac. They’re not Oprah.For the sake of discussion, lets just say there are 500,000 Pontiac fans. Let’s also say that 50% of those aren’t willing to purchase any other GM product – even though the studies and consumer reporting data says it’s lower. And also asume that they are will to buy ANY pontiac that rolls off the assembly line.
That leaves you with 250,000. Of those, we’ll assume 80% are in a financial position to buy a new Pontiac within the next three years. Now we’re at 200,000. Spread that out over those three years and you have roughly 67,000 sales/yr.
Is 67,000 cars/yr. enough to justify bringing the brand back?
Wait, what about your everyday buyer who didn’t consider GM at all until seeing a new Pontiac? For gits and shiggles, let’s put that number at 67,000, too.
Total projected yearly sales – 134,000.For comparison:
Buick sold 177,633 vehicles in 2011.
Cadillac sold 152,389.
Chevrolet sold 1,775,812 (among those 415,130 Silverados, 231,732 Cruzes & 7,671 Volts)
GMC sold 397,986
(source: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/gm-finishes-2011-with-4-9-uptick-in-december-up-13-7-for-the-year/)Is that enough demand?
BTW, that also assumes that GM has a crystal ball that told them exactly which cars to make (since it’s not our place to tell them which cars to build) so every one sells without a single one languishing on the car lot.If you think thats enough demand, then the next step is to start gathering the signatures.
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I don’t see why they don’t just make 3 or 4 Pontiacs……like a niche brand (Is that what it’s called?) They don’t have to make a whole lineup just like 3 or 4 vehicles for the Pontiac brand.
Regarding a comment above, I am one of the people who only would buy a Pontiac. I was Pontiac loyal and that’s all I would buy. I dont care for the Chevy brand or Buick brand. I have tried to like Chevy and Buick enough to buy one but I just can’t. Pretty sure my next car will be a FORD! GM lost a 100% loyal Pontiac customer here and my F*ck you to GM will be when I buy a Ford!
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PontiacRulz: Good for you! THAT’S the spirit! The same goes for me. I DON’T WANT a Chevy. I DON’T WANT a Buick. In fact, I would want a Buick even less than I’d want a Chevy, because Buick survived AT PONTIAC’S EXPENSE. And I just LOVE your last sentence. Now THERE’S a FEISTY Pontiac loyalist! And, I think you’ve sent a VERY important message to GM.
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I loved my 2005 Pontiac Vibe – excellent car – trouble-free 6 yr ownership – still had that *new car smell* looked new – everyone loved it – versatile, fun to drive, great gas mileage, roomy and comfortable. Interior was well made and tho there was some plastic, it wasn’t garish nor cheap to the touch. Real soft cloth seats (none of this *synthetic cloth weave* that is found in so-called budget cars starting at $17k) Had a sliding power sunroof and power everything with cruise – in the 6 yrs we owned it, I still to this day don’t know what the engine looked like. Never had to pop the hood ONCE. I mourn it. Victim of hit n run while parked in front of my house on a Sunday night 2 weeks before Christmas – perp never caught. Vibe was totaled.
Yes, they need to bring back the quality and the name Pontiac once again. I realize the insides were Toyota Matrix, but the rest of the design, esp the interior was distinctive and intuitive and as all cars should be, geared for the driver’s comfort and usability. The wind noise at highway speeds was virtually non-existent, the comfort all around superb, and there were zero internal rattles and noises – it was put together beautifully.
Am in the process of shopping for a new car and am disheartened to find so many issues already with 2012 models as evidenced in forums around the web: transmissions, electrical troubles, quality control faults in builds that should never have been missed. It is a bad time to be shopping for a new car. π
I have test-driven a handful of cars and have not been fully happy. The worst interior was the Ford Fiesta and the most comfortable to drive was the Honda FIT but my husband said the rear seating was not comfortable at all during the ride and he is only 5’3. I want to buy American. Even if it is partially made here. My next test drive will be the Chevy Sonic LTZ and I want to like it so much, but it seems wrought with quality control issues right out of the gate as I wrote above. I wish i could wait for the Spring version of 6spd Turbo AT, but I need a car NOW and not one that will rack up the bulk of its miles to the dealer’s mechanic.
I, too, am saddened and upset by Pontiac’s retirement. I am almost inclined to buy the Honda FIT out of spite, but I need to give the Sonic a chance in the test drive and ultimately, the final price the dealer will offer.
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“Pontiac was great in its heyday, but it is DEAD! Actually GM needs to think about axing GMC and positioning Buick to be the sport-luxury step up from Chevy. Chevrolet, like other competitors, will improve interior quality so you don’t need another redundant brand.”
Not so fast in repositioning Buick. Most of the volume in the luxury market today lies in performance luxury (BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz) and soft luxury (Lexus). GM needs to have a soft lux competitor to take on the luxury sales leader of the United States for 9 out of the last 10 years — Lexus. And, as I’ve mentioned before, it will be Caddy that goes after performance luxury brands.
No need to move Buick to a less-profitable area and devalue GM’s luxury proposition.
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I like that new Ford Focus Titanium a lot. It may be my next car. As I said, I’m just not into Chevy and Buick. GM murdered Pontiac and for that I won’t forgive them. Guess if I like this Focus as much as I think I will, I’ll be switching my loyalty over to Ford. GM can kiss my a** for their murder of Pontiac. It’s okay though, the blue oval was there to help me π
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@PontiacRulz You should drive a Cruze. Focus is a great car, but not as good as the Cruze when it comes to handling and driving engagement. Since you’re a Pontiac fan, I’d expect those two to be at the top of your priorities when looking for a new car.
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@intrimazz It seems that you’re in the market for a hatch. If so, the Sonic is a way, way, way better car than the Fit/Jazz… or anything else in its class — including the Fiesta and Nissan Versa.
Sonic is safer, more fun to drive (and look at), and pretty much has best-in-class everything. It’s one thing to talk about cars here on the forum; but it’s something else to actually feel the car and drive it. The Sonic is one of those cars that needs to be driven for one to really understand how great it is — the chassis, suspension, and control.
The only quality-control-related issues I’m aware of for the Sonic involves the brake pad mishap that only affected 10-12 cars. Not sure if there’s anything else…
Other than that, I’d also look at the Cruze (if you’re open to sedans, that is) and Ford Focus hatch.
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I will try them both out but I’m pretty sure I’ll end up with the Focus. It just looks cooler to me. I don’t really care for any of their remaining brands. Pontiac was my car for life and I was brand loyal to it, now GM is kinda blah to me. Idk I kinda feel like….screw you GM for getting rid of Pontiac. They got rid of the brand that I liked and don’t seem to care very much. Now I’m liking the new Focus so why should I hesitate to buy one? They spent all these years getting people to like Pontiac, then get rid of it and leave all us Pontiac fans with our finger up our asses ignoring all of us now. Well screw you GM, I’m buying a FORD!
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Right. To me, the Focus’ styling (exterior and interior) doesn’t really jive. But that’s just me.
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PontiacRulz, I’d like to thank you for your posts. I’ve been on God knows how many Pontiac-related messageboards over the past two years or so, and I’ve yet to see someone who TELLS IT LIKE IT IS the way you do. Your posts have expressed the anger and frustration of all those Pontiac loyalists who are OUTRAGED by the brand’s murder. I kind of regret to see that you might soon be moving-on to Ford. As for me, I’m going to stay with Pontiac a little longer. To me, Pontiac is like an old friend, and it’s VERY difficult to LEAVE an old friend. And you’re right: After I’ve spent literally DECADES driving, supporting, and being loyal to the brand, GM just kicks Pontiac into the gutter and turns a deaf ear to the throngs of people clamoring for the brand’s return. I’m holding-out hope that GM just MIGHT decide to revive Pontiac. I know it’s just a hope, but like you said in a previous post: That’s all we’ve got for now.
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So wait. @PontiacRulz you’re willing to get yourself a vehicle that is inferior to the Cruze in pretty much every way just to spite GM?
Not sure how soon you’re looking to buy, but I’d stick around for the production of the 130R. I’ve got money on its production.
Manoli wrote a great piece about why it will come to market on the GM Authority blog:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/take-it-from-a-millennial-build-the-chevy-code-130r-part-i/The 130 R is the introduction of the passion brand within Chevrolet. It’s as close as you get to Pontiac, but you ultimately get a better vehicle.
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No I said if I like the Focus more after driving it then I’d buy it. The I added that the satisfaction of driving around in it knowing that I didnt buy another GM after what they did to Pontiac would be a bonus haha.
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I love Pontiac. I’m 25 and I’m a proudly driver of a 2007 Grand Prix GXP.
so…If reborn, should Pontiac go global? I don’t think it should.
GM needs a car to compete with the Dodge Charger since I don’t believe next Impala will be the one, maybe it will compete with the Taurus SHO.
Then an all-new Grand Prix or G8 would do the job.Young guys have few options within the current GM lineup.
They need Pontiac. We need Pontiac.
Cars are getting boring.
Bring PONTIAC back GM! -
@William: Perhaps it SHOULD go global, IF it could. The ONLY reason Buick survived is that it was a global brand. Pontiac was WHIPPING Buick here in the US.
Regarding Dodge: Increasingly, I’m seeing Pontiac being compared to Dodge on other Pontiac-related message boards. You would think that Dodge–being Chrysler’s only mainstream brand–would target Chevy or Ford. Instead, it seems to be going after Pontiac’s demographic: Younger buyers looking for sporty vehicles. That gives GM another reason to revive Pontiac: To go after Dodge. Chevy targets Ford, Buick targets Lexus, and a revived Pontiac goes after Dodge.
By the way, thank-you for joining the chorus of folks calling for Pontiac’s return!
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I don’t wan to drive a Chevy, I want to drive a PONTIAC!
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Good for you, PontiacRulz! I SECOND your motion.
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Dude I’m so sure my next car will be a Ford but IF I did buy a Chevy I’d take all the chevy logos off and replace them with Pontiac ones! Put a supercharger on that beast and hell I might even change the dash lighting to red like a true PONTIAC! WOOO!
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Why not a Cruze? Have you driven one?
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“@William: Perhaps it SHOULD go global, IF it could. The ONLY reason Buick survived is that it was a global brand. Pontiac was WHIPPING Buick here in the US.”
I don’t know why you keep coming back to this… the fact that Pontiac had 2-3x greater sales volume than Buick doesn’t mean a thing! An automaker can sell 100x what another brand/automaker sells, but not make 1) as much in profit or 2) not make any profit at all.
Fact: Pontiac was a mainstream product.
Fact: Pontiac had very low sales volume for a mainstream product.
Fact: all mainstream automakers/brands earn narrow margins.
Fact: Financially, Pontiac was not successful. Buick was and continues to be, even at a significantly lower sales volume, highly profitable.
How many times does one have to repeat this?
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“Regarding Dodge: Increasingly, I’m seeing Pontiac being compared to Dodge on other Pontiac-related message boards. You would think that Dodge–being Chrysler’s only mainstream brand–would target Chevy or Ford. Instead, it seems to be going after Pontiac’s demographic: Younger buyers looking for sporty vehicles. That gives GM another reason to revive Pontiac: To go after Dodge. Chevy targets Ford, Buick targets Lexus, and a revived Pontiac goes after Dodge.”
Why can’t Chevy’s newly-found “Passion division” do what you’re describing?
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@alex: The fact that Pontiac was whipping Buick in sales here in the US showed that there was much greater DEMAND for Pontiac here than there was for Buick. Why is THAT so difficult to comprehend? And Pontiac loyalists on other Pontiac message-boards are saying the same thing, and HAVE been saying it since Pontiac was murdered. Try visiting the “GM should bring back PONTIAC” thread on GMi. See the reception you’ll get when you make comments there that are similar to the ones you’re making on this thread.
I’m a Pontiac loyalist. I don’t WANT a Chevy. For me, Pontiac will always be the REAL “Passion division.”
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It’s not difficult to comprehend… it’s simply irrelevant.
There’s always more demand of a product at a lower price point. It’s called mass-market appeal.
No one cares about how many units a company sells of a certain product unless it’s profitable in doing so. There are some exceptions (loss-leader, etc.). But it usually doesn’t happen with mainstream cars.
Again, it’s not about quantity. It’s about profitability. Pontiac, at the time it was “murdered” — made crap products with the exceptions of the G8 and Solstice. The rest of the lineup was pure garbage. Is this what you want brought back? Why is the quantity vs. profitability business fact so difficult to understand?
As for “Pontiac loyalists” — no one is denying their existence… but their market will be served by a better product within Chevrolet. If you get a better product but can’t accept the badge, or when your ideology is overshadowing reality… then we have much bigger issues to discuss.
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CONSUMERS care. PONTIAC customers care. I think the REAL issue is this: IS there adequate demand (in the US and Canada combined) to make the return of Pontiac feasible? If there IS, then Pontiac should return. That’s Econ 100.
By the way, I don’t think of Pontiac’s line-up at the time, as “garbage.” And there really are no other “issues”; “The customer is always right.” One person can’t dictate to another what his consumer preferences should be. That’s a matter of PERSONAL choice.
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Yes, consumers do care. And if a company can’t make a profit while serving them, that company will go out of business. Witness Old GM. How much will consumers care for a company that no longer exists? That dies serving them?
Let’s face it — Pontiac was one of the reasons Old GM failed. So was Saturn.
Can you honestly say that the G3, G5, Vibe, and Torrent were “good” cars? They were lame excuses for a modern-world vehicle. Let’s not even go there.
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I don’t mind going there. I would have been content with ALL of them: G3, G5, Vibe, AND Torrent.
I was loyal to PONTIAC, NOT GM. If GM decides that Pontiac won’t return, then I will take my business to a non-GM automaker.
IF Pontiac was “one of the reasons” that old GM failed, a revived Pontiac could shed whatever caused “old Pontiac” to be a hindrance. It’s not chiseled in stone somewhere, that a revived Pontiac has to make the same mistakes that it might have made before.
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“I don’t mind going there. I would have been content with ALL of them: G3, G5, Vibe, AND Torrent.”
Really? Are those the vehicles that make you a proud Pontiac owner? Because I would rather buy a Hyundai than drive either one of those lame excuses for a car.
“I was loyal to PONTIAC, NOT GM. If GM decides that Pontiac won’t return, then I will take my business to a non-GM automaker.”
This is where I think ideology is superseding reality for you. Are you saying that, with the exception of a Pontiac badge, if a Chevy (for instance) vehicle offers the looks, performance, and affordable price (all values of pioneered by Pontiac), you would go out and buy an inferior vehicle just to spite GM?
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That’s right; I’m proud of Pontiac. If you would rather have a Hyundai, that’s YOUR choice.
Again, one person can’t dictate to another what his consumer preferences should be. YES: I DON’T want a Chevy; I don’t care WHAT it offers. Again: If GM won’t return Pontiac, I will take my business to a non-GM automaker. I will not patronize an automaker that murdered my favorite brand.
Having said that, if GM DOES return Pontiac, I’ll stand beside GM once again.
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To clarify: you’d be perfectly proud and happy to drive a G3 just because it has a Pontiac badge… correct?
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Correct.
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I’m not going to dwell much on this as it is apparent your mind is set regardless of what facts or alternatives are presented to you.
Still, I will ask a few questions.
What makes up a Pontiac? Is its only requirement be that it has the name and Arrowhead? With your comments about the G3, G5, etc, that seems to be all that you care about: a name and a badge.What about the hardworking people that built the Pontiacs during its last years? Guess what, they’re putting that passion into building Chevrolets and Buicks (Maybe some Cadillacs). Don’t you care about those people who made your Pontiacs?
What about the Engineering, Marketing, Logistics, etc support for Pontiac? Yet again, a large majority of those people are still with GM, and still working hard to bring an exciting vehicle to try to satisfy you. Don’t you care about them?
What about the corporate management? As Alex has previously stated a few pages back, there were people for and against keeping Pontiac going. Unfortunately, those against were more persuasive. Does that make you care any less for those in management that fought for its survival?
And lastly, have you given any thought to the previous suggestion for trying to bring the brand back? Based on the lack of feedback, and lack to any realistic effort on any other messageboard (bringbackpontiac, high performance pontiac, pontiac forever, etc.) I am guessing you’re not willing to make the effort. If the name is all you want, then do what PontiacRulz suggested. There are T/A conversions for Camaros available.
At the end of the day a car is more than just a name. It embodies the vision of the designers, the ingenuity of the engineers, the craft of the PR, and the dedication of those in manufacturing. If you want to punish those people because their hard work isn’t emblazoned with P O N T I A C, then that’s your choice.
As for me, I stand behind the people, because people is the most important P word in this conversation. -
I am loyal to the Pontiac brand. Yes, that red arrowhead means a lot to me. As for the folks who worked hard building Pontiacs, but are now building Buicks and Chevys, they’ll have to talk to GM’s front office about that. I wasn’t the one who murdered Pontiac.
I certainly respect all the other folks at GM who work for that company in other capacities. Unfortunately, if they think they’re building the best vehicle they can for ME, they might as well not bother. The only new GM vehicle I’ll be purchasing is one offered by a revived Pontiac.
As for those in management who wanted to keep Pontiac, I tip my hat to them. I certainly appreciate their stand. But the bottom line for me is (again): Unless Pontiac returns, I simply will not purchase a new GM vehicle.
I will not purchase Trans Am conversion kits for Camaros. The only Trans Am I will own is an original, real Trans Am (and I own one right now).
I have nothing against the hard-working people at GM who had nothing to do with the monstrous decision to murder Pontiac. The responsibility lies with those in power who actually DID murder it, and–more importantly–refuse to bring the brand back.
And speaking of “standing behind people”: WHO is standing behind the thousands of people–in the US and Canada– who have been loyal customers of Pontiac for DECADES (such as I), and had the rug abruptly pulled from under them? Who speaks for THOSE people?
And yes: My mind IS set. BUT If GM DOES decide to revive Pontiac, let me ASSURE you: I’ll be back at GM’s side, in a heartbeat.
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Pontiac forever no doubt but what I dont understand is..where is the Pontiac tab on this forum Alex? FordAuthority’s forum has a Mercury tab. You should def have a Pontiac tab for this GMAuthority forum. I’ll be starting Pontiac topics on here a lot so I think a Pontiac tab would be nice. We should have a vote or something… PONTIAC 4 LIFE! π
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@PontiacRulz Not to worry; that Mercury navigation element is going away soon.
As for a Pontiac one — there simply isn’t that much news surrounding the brand/topic at the moment… thus the reason for not having it. But you can always get to its equivalent here:
http://www.gmauthority.com/blog/category/pontiac/ -
I still think we should have a vote for a Pontiac forum tab. That would be awesome. Dude this bring Pontiac back discussion is easily the most popular topic in the forums, I think Pontiac deserves a place in the Forums. Especially since I’ll be bringing up Pontiac topics a lot. C’mon Alex DO IT DO IT DO IT! π
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Oh you mean in the Forum. I though you were referring to the blog. My mistake.
Ask and you shall receive!
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Alex you are AWESOME dude! Thanks! π
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You respect and appreciate all those people who had made a Pontiac possible for you, yet you intend to punish them now for something that is beyond their control. Your words ring hollow.
I’ve provided alternatives and suggestions within this discussion for ways to convince GM to bring the brand back. Those ideas are a long shot, but they have more potential than repeating the same tired and disproven arguments. Actions speak louder than words and boycotting GM only drives that nail further into Pontiacs’ coffin and personally offends those who took pride in building the Pontiacs for you. I knew a few people who used to work at the Fairfax plant in Kansas City. That plant did build Grand Prix’s. Now the plant builds the Malibu and LaCrosse. If I were to tell those people that I respect and appreciate them, but that I wouldn’t even consider their vehicles, they would rightfully be quite upset at me and hurt by my actions.
(It’s analogy time again)
If someones’ spouse lost their wedding ring, it would be ignorant, selfish, and illogical to say: “I respect and appreciate you and everything you have done, but because you don’t have that ring on your finger, you cannot live in this house.” That’s what you’re doing when you boycott GM.What I’ve tried to explain is that GM is not a single person. A boycott only works to punish the many for the actions of a few. It hurts the people who made Pontiac possible the most. It also causes you to miss out on a vehicle made by those same fine people that had made your Pontiac. Frankly, taking brand loyalty to your extremes seems childish and immature to me.
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Moanalua just doesn’t want to give money to a company that murdered his favorite brand. Why should he buy a Chevrolet if he doesnt want one? Yea he’ll be supporting the people who built his Pontiac but he cant buy a Pontiac anymore. Why should he buy from a remaining brand if he doesnt like any of the remaining brands?
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“Why should he buy from a remaining brand if he doesnt like any of the remaining brands?”
Simple answer: because the products are better. Better quality, safety, interior, and driving dynamics.
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That may be true but if I don’t care for Chevrolet as a brand I’m not going to buy one.
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@Brian_E: As I said, you can tell your acqaintances to address their concerns to GM’s front office. I have no obligation to purchase any vehicle other than the one I wish to purchase. There’s nothing “childish” about it at all. In Economics, it’s called, “voting with your dollars.”
I’ve expended a considerable amount of time and energy posting on this thread. As a consumer, I have a simple ultimatum to GM: Either return Pontiac, or I take my business to a non-GM automaker. In Economics, that’s known as consumer sovereignty. The customer is king. It’s really quite simple.
I find it somewhat childish that a person would be passing judgement on another person’s consumer preferences and practices.
@PontiacRulz: Thanks for your support. It seems that folks like you are pretty hard to find on this thread.
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@ PontiacRulz
If Moanalua has taken an objective an unbiased look at GM vehicles and doesn’t like any of them, I can completely respect that. But that is not how I have understood his comments. He has said multiple times that he is boycotting GM because they ‘murdered’ Pontiac. To him it doesn’t matter what they offer, he will not even give them a chance. If they were to bring the Holden Commodore as a Chevy, he won’t buy it because it’s not Pontiac G8.
He won’t buy a used Aveo because it’s not a G3. He won’t buy a Chevy Equinox because its not a Torrent, etc. He has a made it clear to me that the value of the name and arrowhead badge trumps all else. Performance, styling, quality, and supporting those american workers are pointless. His willingness to buy a G3, but not a Sonic, speaks to a logic that I honestly can’t follow.@Moanalua, I mean you no disrespect. I just simply cannot agree with your argument.
If I’ve misstated any of your views, feel free to correct me.EDIT: @Moanalua, I didn’t see your last comment until after I posted this. I guess the childish comment was judgmental. You have my apologies for that statement.
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@Brian_E: As I said earlier, it’s all about individual consumer preferences. You don’t HAVE to agree with my argument. And if you’ve misstated my views, that’s OK. You have no obligation to accept them. Again, it’s very simple: As a consumer, my position is that if GM doesn’t revive Pontiac, I will take my business to a non-GM automaker. Roughly 45% of Pontiac’s (former) customers already have.
It’s not even necessarily about logic. It’s all about individual consumer preference. Another person’s preferences and practices don’t HAVE to be “logical” to you.
EDIT: @Brian_E, no offense taken.
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Point taken. I guess it’s just the engineer in me trying to understand your choice in valuing the badge over the product.
Call me Spock. :-)) -
Well, Pontiac’s red arrowhead calls to mind all the great Pontiacs I’ve owned. Even my parents’ first new car was a Pontiac. Therefore, I grew-up with Pontiac. For me, Pontiac’s arrowhead overshadows the vehicle itself. I guess it’s the same as the American flag. That’s just a “badge” too, isn’t it? Yet, that flag MEANS a lot to Americans.
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I agree Moanalua. I am BRAND loyal to Pontiac. I feel GM is trying to tell us Pontiac loyalists to buy a Chevy or Buick and that’s bull crap. GM already had us as customers and murdered our brand. They just don’t seem to understand that we are brand loyal and we don’t want any stinkin Chevrolet or Buick. They can shove Chevy and Buick where the sun don’t shine cause I don’t want one of those, I want a Pontiac and if they don’t bring it back I will take my business elsewhere. GM doesn’t seem to understand what brand loyalty is. We are loyal to Pontiac and you arent going to herd us into a Chevrolet or Buick.
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PontiacRulz, again: Your posts are simply CLASSIC. I wish EVERY Pontiac loyalist were like you. For those who still haven’t caught-on, what if we said: “It’s a PONTIAC thing. You wouldn’t understand.”
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I also have some great Pontiac memories. In 1973, my dad bought the ’72 GP that became my first car. That was three years before I was born. I’m proud to say that I still have that car. I’m proud of their performance heritage and I love going to Pontiac themed car shows.
Good comparison on the American flag. I can see similarities in my own viewpoint. Like America, I am glad to be a Pontiac owner and gladly profess the great things about the brand. But, I am also willing to confess where there have been shortcomings. I’m also willing to be loyal to the citizens of Pontiac, and stand beside them. The American flag has changed the number of stars, but it still stands for the same freedoms, rights and opportunities. The insignia has changed, but those same GM employees are still producing good quality performance, just with a different insignia. Still, I do see your disappointment with GM. I’m choosing to look past my own disappointment with Pontiac’s demise and focus on the future of affordable performance from GM. I choose to believe that the Pontiac spirit carries on through the GM employees and I won’t turn my back on them.
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@PontiacRulz “GM doesn’t seem to understand what brand loyalty is. We are loyal to Pontiac and you arent going to herd us into a Chevrolet or Buick.”
No one from GM, to my knowledge, has contributed to this discussion. So you don’t know and can’t comment with any kind of certainty what they do and/or do not understand. Let’s get that straight before you start a posse.
@Moanalua Yeah. The G3 was certainly a Pontiac thing. Good one.
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@alex: Well, obviously the G3 was nothing to write home about. For sure, that would have been the last Pontiac model I would have purchased. How about this: Better the G3, than a SIMILAR model from a DIFFERENT brand.
@Brian_E: Inadvertently, you’ve pointed-up why we shouldn’t even bother to rationalize other people’s consumer preferences: YOU can’t understand how PontiacRulz and I can be so loyal to a BRAND; HE AND I can’t understand how you could even CONSIDER another GM brand, given what you claim Pontiac has meant to you. In Economics, we say that each person has his or her own “utility function.” That’s why the old saying never GETS old: “To each, his own.”
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You guys and your late night conversations…. I gotta get up early in the morning.
(where’s the yawning smiley.)EDIT: @Moanalua. Well said. For me, Pontiac is more than just a badge: It’s performance, it’s passion, and most importantly to me, it’s the people. The people are what made Pontiac great. Knudsen, DeLorean, Estes, Wangers, etc. PLUS every assembly line worker that built them. Pontiac people are still at GM and they’re still making cars – badge or not.
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@Moanalua: “It’s not even necessarily about logic. It’s all about individual consumer preference. Another person’s preferences and practices don’t HAVE to be “logical” to you.”
That doesn’t seem to be the case. It seems that you personally feel offended and, because of this, are willing to purchase what will most likely be an inferior product from the elsewhere. That’s not consumer preference… that’s deep-rooted hatred and contempt.
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@Brian_E Good night, mate. Good talks. I don’t think we have a yawning smiley, though π
@Moanalua I believe you’re one of the last who thinks about it that way. A G3 is an Aveo, fair and square. Either one you buy, you’re getting the econobox of econoboxes… same for the G5 and most G6 models sold, which were all too similar to the Malibu.
It’s interesting to me that you, as a Pontiac fan, would even support this kind of badge engineering… although I do understand where you’re coming from in regards to brand. For me, it’s much more about the car than the badge.
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@alex: That’s YOUR opinion. As I posted to Brian_E, it’s really not appropriate to pass judgement on other people’s consumer preferences and practices, is it? Yes, I AM offended that GM murdered Pontiac. Yes, I WOULD prefer to purchase an “inferior” vehicle from a non-GM automaker. In Economics, you’ve then gone on to make a “VALUE JUDGEMENT”: “That’s not consumer preference…that’s deep-rooted hatred and contempt.” In Economics, consumer preference is designed to take things like that into account. Consumer preference is an amalgam of ALL factors, of ANY and ALL kinds. We don’t pass judgement. It’s simply chalked-up to that person’s “utility function.”
By the way, I wouldn’t say I have a “deep-rooted hatred” of GM. Contempt, perhaps.
EDIT @alex: This post is in reference to the one BEFORE your last post.
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I was just on GM’s Facebook page and saw someone say they heard Pontiacs revival rumors, thats great! I have been hearing the same. I love how GM can’t seem to stop hearing about Pontiac, I hope it is getting to them lol
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PontiacRulz: Man, I hope those rumors are true! Keep us posted!
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PontiacRulz, you’re chasing down a rumor and overhyping it. You’ve found a comment on GM’s FB page and are giving it far to much credit that it deserves.
Rumors are best though of as fragments of dust that can be ignored until you have to sweep them away. Pontiac’s return is just such a dustbunny behind the GM sofa in the corner of a massive room called the auto industry.
Nobody knows if there is any dust behind the GM sofa, and many people don’t care enough to look. And if there is, so what? Pontiac was such a crashing non-player in the auto industry. It didn’t scare any when Lutz said “America’s BMW”, and it’s going to be hard to make a business case for selling cars to the 20-something set who don’t have any money in the first place to buy performace cars.
Performance itself is something that doesn’t rate very high on their list of demands anyway. Afordability, fuel efficiency , safety do.
Guess which factors Pontiac didn’t have.
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@Grawdaddy: That doesn’t mean a REVIVED Pontiac CAN’T have them. GM can return Pontiac shorn of liabilities that “old Pontiac” had. This down-time is a perfect opportunity to re-invent Pontiac. I’ll go with any kind of revived Pontiac that GM sees fit to offer. It’s time for Pontiac’s next act.
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And what, exactly, would a “revived” Pontiac offer?
Mind you, a “revived pontiac” wouldn’t have anymore autonomy than what it had when it left. If you’re suggesting a “Pontiac only platform and RWD only”, then bringing the brand back is meaningless if it costs billions to do so and sells only to a few thousand every year.
If that’s the case, Pontiac would be a returning cancer; another black hole in GM’s balance.
So I’ll ask again, because a workable business plan is only a fraction of what it would take to bring Pontiac back:
What would Pontiac offer to 20-somethings with limited disposable income that would appeal to their demographic’s demands of fuel effeiceny, affordability, and safety?
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I would be content to let GM come-up with the business plan. I’ve always felt that it would be a bit presumptuous of US to suggest a business plan to GM. GM would be in the best position to do that, given its in-house marketing division and bean-counters. For example, no one knows GM’s cost structure better than GM itself. As I’ve posted before, I really don’t care HOW Pontiac returns, as long as it DOES return. If you’ll google “Bring Back Pontiac”, you’ll see that there are an awful lot of people who want the brand back. You might want to visit some of the many websites you’ll find.
Should Pontiac target twenty-somethings, or should it target THIRTY-somethings? As a demographic, the thirty-somethings have more disposable income, but are still young enough to want something sporty. Details like that, I’m willing to leave to GM. When it comes to Pontiac, I’m not picky. I simply want the brand back.
Ask PontiacRulz about the strong demand for Pontiac, here and in Canada. I think GM should go for it, and I HOPE that GM goes for it.
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I know Pontiac sold plenty in Canada. G3’s, G5’s, and SV6’s formed the core of their Canadian sales.
Something that Chevy was already doing with it’s respective cars.
Pontiac was nothing but another sales channel for the same things Chevy had. Solstice and G8’s didn’t make a dent in contrast to the aforementioned cars, so bringing them back “just because” would mean clones of whatever Chevrolet is selling.
Also, the 30-somethings with disposable income are looking squarely at BMW (as expected).
Furthermore, wishing it was so on the internet won’t make it so. You can wish for Pontiac as much as you want, but the fact is that wishes don’t exist and never have. There is only events of circumstance that are favourable and those that are unfavourable. No amount of braying on the internet will change this.
Next question: What is something that would appeal to the 30-somethings that would make them choose a revived Pontiac against a BMW?
I mean you and Rulz really want Pontiac back. So would a Pontiac Sonic or Orlando do the trick?
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“Next question: What is something that would appeal to the 30-somethings that would make them choose a revived Pontiac against a BMW?”
Bring back the fuc&ing Azteck! :))
Sorry guys, couldn’t resist.
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Don’t listen to Grawdady he is just saying things based on what he thinks. Pontiac could come back and offer performance cars that are of course as best on fuel as they can be. If you think demand for performance vehicles isnt there than you live in a hole somewhere. It’s no secret that teens especially but people from all age groups like performance cars. Oh and regarding your statement about Pontiac being the “American BMW”, tell me the G8 wasnt awesome…go ahead and tell me it wasnt Grawdady because the G8 was amazing, it lived up to what a Pontiac should be and the best part about it was that it was AFFORDABLE performance like Pontiacs are supposed to be. The G8 was the type of car that Pontiac could be building today and should be building. I’d put that G8 up against a bimmer and I’ll bet you the G8 would win. Best part about the G8 was that te avergage person could afford it! It was awesome bro. It was PONTIAC!
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@Grawdaddy: There’s a thread I’d like to recommend to you. It’s “GM should bring back PONTIAC”, on GMi. That’s where the “heavy artillery” of Pontiac loyalists is. Don’t be surprised, though, if you’re asked to leave the thread.
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“tell me the G8 wasnt awesome…go ahead and tell me it wasnt Grawdady because the G8 was amazing,”
The G8 wasn’t amazing.
The G8 was proof that even when you give into the public, not even a RWD V8 sedan could save a brand. Same deal with the Solstice.
It shows that the G8 was nothing but an expensive risk that contributed nothing to the bottomline and sold poorly, no matter how GM tried to frame Pontiac as a “performance brand”.
You’re being unrealistic if you think a brand that only survived as far as it did for the last 30 years from rebaded/rebodied cars can make a quantum shift into niche performance sales.
Lets try another question, and don’t skirt around it.
Say Pontiac was parred down to just the G8 and the Solstice and they sold 25K units total in one model year. Now with all the money Pontiac has earned, where do they spend it? The G8 or the Solstice?
Compeating models from with GM and from other automakers have stepped up their game because they have more resouces, more engineers, more researchers, and more money. So what does Pontiac do with the limited pile of cash it has? The money will run out and eventually the G8 and Solstice won’t be compeditve anymore when demand dries up; no one is going to want to buy outdated piles.
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GMI’s forums and their reactionary Pontiac fans are a lost cause. Them, like Rulz and yourself, are all screaming at the top of your lungs for an unworkable business plan that only made sense 30 years ago.
If you’re unwilling to come to grips with the idea that not every teenager or 30-something wants RWD or V8’s, then you’re living in a bubble. Consumer demands have changed and the 80’s are dead.
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@Grawdaddy: Are you implying that a revived Pontiac division would be underfunded? Why? Why would Pontiac have only a “limited pile of cash”? If GM is going to revive Pontiac, I would think that they’d have a better business plan than that.
The G8 compared favorably to BMW’s larger models, and COST a lot less. The G8 was the “poor man’s BMW,” and I have no problem with that. It served a niche in the market.
Buyers like PontiacRulz and I don’t care how many “resources, engineers, researchers, and money” other GM brands have. If it’s not a Pontiac, we’re not buying. We’re going OUTSIDE of GM. Conversely–speaking just for myself–if GM DOES revive Pontiac, I won’t care how many resources, engineers, researchers, and money NON-GM brands may have; I’m buying Pontiac.
Yes, the ’80s are dead. That’s not stopping a lot of people from clamoring for a new Trans Am, even though Pontiac was murdered almost three years ago, and the Trans Am was discontinued ten years ago.
Regarding your post before this one: I again invite you to post on the “GM should bring back PONTIAC” thread on GMi. Go ahead and post that they’re “screaming reactionaries.”
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Grawdady, keep thinking what you want, your entitled to that. But you aint gonna make us me or Moanalua think like you do. Quit wasting your time. I hope you don’t think I care what your saying because I dont. You are saying things that YOU believe.
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“Don’t listen to Grawdady he is just saying things based on what he thinks.”
” You are saying things that YOU believe.”
ENOUGH of this shit. Everyone here is saying what they believe and sharing in their points of view. It just so happens that your point of view is different… and you’re trying to resurrect something that should have gone away 10-15 years ago. Why are you telling people that they’re expressing their opinions? No shit they are! That’s what people do here.
“The G8 was the type of car that Pontiac could be building today and should be building. I’d put that G8 up against a bimmer and I’ll bet you the G8 would win. Best part about the G8 was that te avergage person could afford it! It was awesome bro. It was PONTIAC!”
No, it was a Holden. Pontiac didn’t have any unique models. Pontiac was nothing in the last 10-15 years of its existence. It was a just a badge. Nothing less, nothing more.
“@Grawdaddy: There’s a thread I’d like to recommend to you. It’s “GM should bring back PONTIAC”, on GMi. That’s where the “heavy artillery” of Pontiac loyalists is. Don’t be surprised, though, if you’re asked to leave the thread.”
What’s the point of discussion, then, if you’re asked to leave a thread?
Do you want to live in a world where there are only like-minded people with no opposing/different points of view? Does everyone need to agree with your idiotic wish for an outdated brand that’s near and dear to your heart… but one that’s not realistic in today’s automotive market place? Get with reality, man. Not everyone will agree with you. But that’s what discussions like this are for!
PS: to who ever runs GMAuthority: you did an outstanding job with the forum! It’s nothing like I’ve ever seen/used before. Very user friendly and polished.
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@wbodyfan: Discussion is one thing; rudeness is another. Read Brian_E’s posts. PontiacRulz and I rarely agree with him, but speaking just for myself, I don’t find his posts offensive. He conducts himself on-line like a gentleman. I don’t mind having discussions with him.
Obviously, folks won’t always agree with each other. It’s HOW they choose to disagree, that’s instructive.
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“Say Pontiac was parred down to just the G8 and the Solstice and they sold 25K units total in one model year. Now with all the money Pontiac has earned, where do they spend it? The G8 or the Solstice?”
25,000 units a year is NOT going to work. This is why it’s near impossible to make a proper business case for Pontiac. @Moanalua This is reality. So unless Pontiacs carry a $5,000 premium per vehicle (which would make them less accessible and attractive) there is no business case for the brand.
And to your question — if Pontiac were a “division”, then it would be responsible for its own Profit and Loss. And it will lose big time until it hits around 40,000-50,000 units a year.
“If you think demand for performance vehicles isnt there than you live in a hole somewhere. It’s no secret that teens especially but people from all age groups like performance cars.”
Like them? Sure! But buy them? Not really. Look at the numbers! Sports cars are the worst-performing/selling segment for any and all automakers, but cost the most to manufacture and develop, design, and engineer. They’re the least profitable type of vehicle. But the most fun… and have intangible benefits like being halo cars for the rest of the lineup.
As an automotive enthusiast, I’m afraid that with time, we will live in a world that’s full of Camrys and Accords… devoid of fun-to-drive cars. I’m not even talking performance cars, but cars that are fun (like the Toyota GT-86 and Pontiac Solstice).
That’s why I’m a proponent of the Passion department with Chevy. It would result in a number of fun mainstream cars that don’t break the bank and there won’t be the constant fear of always looking around your shoulder fearing that your favorite performance brand ate the dust.
“I’d put that G8 up against a bimmer and I’ll bet you the G8 would win.”
Win in what? Have you ever drive a BMW? If so, you would understand that it’s rarely about straight-line performance… or performance in the twisties, for that matter. It’s a pure athletic car with tons of luxury. The G8 was a great car, but it was no BMW. We already discussed this… why are we coming back to BMW again?
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“Discussion is one thing; rudeness is another. Read Brian_E’s posts. PontiacRulz and I rarely agree with him, but speaking just for myself, I don’t find his posts offensive. He conducts himself on-line like a gentleman. I don’t mind having discussions with him.”
Good for you guys. I’m NOT sorry that your feelings are hurt and you thought I was being rude. I don’t think I was being rude at all so you must have misinterpreted.
What I do think is rude though is telling people not to “listen” to other members because they’re voicing their opinions… as @PontiacRulz did to @Grawdaddy. What’s the point of saying that? Of course we’re here to share our opinions. What else would we be dong here?
In any event, I’m not here to talk feelings. That’s your prerogative and you seem to bring it up every now and again in this thread. I’m here to talk cars, pure and simple.
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I’m not sure how many times I’ll have to say it: PontiacRulz and I are NOT INTERESTED in other brands. (Well, at one point, PontiacRulz expressed interest in Ford. But THAT isn’t a GM brand). And speaking just for myself, I don’t care WHAT those other GM brands have to offer. If GM refuses to revive Pontiac, I will take my business to a non-GM automaker. It’s really just as simple as that.
And if some of you are going to insist that there’s NO business model that would find Pontiac feasible, then you are going to have to tell a LOT more folks than just PontiacRulz and I. Lots of luck. You can start by googling “Bring Back Pontiac”, and then proceed to visit every website, message-board, and thread you find, and break the news. Tell me what happens.
Meanwhile, I (and PontiacRulz as well, I’m sure) will keep pushing for Pontiac’s return.
@wbodyfan: We can talk cars, but we can also talk with decorum. It’s not so much that our “feelings are hurt.” We understand that not everyone lands on the same side of the issue of whether Pontiac should return.
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Wbody: you have no basis for argument that the G8 was just a Holden because all the new Buick are nothing but Opels. So whatever. Pontiac is outdated and shouldnt be around? Bullsh*t! Thats your opinion on that. How is it not realistic in today’s world? Just build good affordable performace cars that arent rebadged! It’s so simple to make Pontiac cool and make it a viable brand again but all people want to say is that it’s not possible blah blah blah! That’s what YOU think!
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Actually @Moanalua “we” won’t have to do any of that. “We’re” not on a crazy crusade like you are… but thanks for the invite.
PS: sure, go ahead and take your business elsewhere. And get yourself an inferior car. I was a Toyota guy before seeing the light about 10 years ago. Now I own a 2011 Camaro and my wife has a 2012 Equinox. I dare you to find better products “elsewhere” — ones that look, drive, handle, or have as much (useful) technology for the value delivered by Chevy (or even the new Caddy). Dare you!
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I can’t shake your hand, Alex, but I can thank you.
The Corvette sells around 40K units a year (or at least the C6 did when new before 2008), and that’s without ads and paying for it’s parts that aren’t shared. The base C6 starts at 49K USD, and I very much doubt anyone would buy a base G8 if it cost that much, and that’s just to break even each year.
Cold, hard, ugly, sales numbers.
Although the G8 never sold as much and sold for thousands less than the C6, it was from a brand that, for the better part of 30 years, was directionless. If directionless is too hard a word, then the people in charge of Pontiac failed to consider the shift in consumer demands in much the same way Olds suffered.
Not everyone wants to hang the rear end out while the slide down the on-ramp, and those numbers are only decreasing every day. Sure it’s fun, but it costs an automaker more to make a car do that and to make us want it.
If an automaker is going to be conservative with their money, they’re going to chase after the boring, but highly sable and predictable compact and midsize segments. They know cars in those segments sell and sell damn well every year.
A sports car, or a sporty car, is a luxury; it’s not something that’s nessisary for the car to operate. Luxuries like having a sporty car, like a G8 GXP, are luxuries that only a handful of people can afford, and that’s ONLY if demand for them great enough.
Don’t forget the aforementioned 5-series. Sure the G8 cut it’s legs off, but even in 2009, the G8’s best year, the 5 sold more wagon 5’s than all the G8’s. Yes, the 5 is sold globally, but even in the US, the 5 simply outstipped the G8.
That’s right, even if the G8 cost less than the 5 and outpreformed it, people were still buying the 5 in droves. The G8 was powerless to stop it and it couldn’t save Pontiac.
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@PontiacRulz (by the way, that’s how you address someone here, with an @ sign before their name).
You should re-check your facts. For starters, the LaCrosse and Enclave are Buicks (and not Opels). Additionally, the new Encore was developed in the United States… by a U.S. team of designers and engineers. It just so happens that Buick and Opel are undergoing a brand alignment of sorts. A Buick in the U.S. will be an Opel elsewhere.
Anyway, none of that matters. The fact is that Buick=Opel:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/06/buick-to-love-opel-back-both-to-share-next-generation-enclave-lacrosse/Got it? Buick = Opel. The two will be aligned around the world starting with the Regal/Insignia, Verano/Astra, and Encore/Mokka. It’s different brands making the same products for a global audience with similar values and interests.
“Thats your opinion on that.”
Here we go… again with the “your opinion” bullshit. Well, buddy, that’s your opinion that it’s my opinion! What the hell does that even mean? Why waste space and bits writing that kind of garbage?
“Just build good affordable performace cars that arent rebadged! It’s so simple to make Pontiac cool and make it a viable brand again but all people want to say is that it’s not possible blah blah blah! That’s what YOU think!”
This is why you’re not in charge of a business. And until you understand the reason to what you stated above, you never will be in charge of much.
Me? I’ve run 14 businesses and sold 10 of them… and am in the process of doing so with the 11th. No offense (in case @Moanalua gets his panties in a bunch again about feelings), but you seem pretty young and immature (from a business perspective). Do some reading, keep up with the business side of your education, understand numbers, consumer behavior, statistics… Then you’ll really be able to have a grasp on the situation at hand and we can have a proper discussion. Until then, this is useless.
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@wbodyfan: My next new vehicle doesn’t have to be “perfect.” Last I checked, there’s no such vehicle. So: Chevy is superior to Toyota? That’s a pretty bold statement. I’m not saying that Chevy is a poor brand, and I’m certainly not trying to carry Toyota’s water. It’s just that Toyota has set the standard for so long.
For the umpteenth time: If GM revives Pontiac, my next new vehicle will BE a Pontiac. If GM DOESN’T revive Pontiac, my next new vehicle will be a non-GM brand.
Don’t worry; my “panties aren’t in a bunch.” (And I suppose that passes for a decorous comment). I’m glad you have a firm, experienced grasp on consumer behavior. That means you understand that different consumers have different priorities and preferences. I guess that’s why I would settle for an “inferior” vehicle rather than purchase one from the company that killed my favorite brand.
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“Just build good affordable performace cars that arent rebadged! It’s so simple to make Pontiac cool and make it a viable brand again but all people want to say is that it’s not possible”
Well it isn’t. Rebadging/platform sharing is here to stay for ALL automakers, forever. It isn’t going to go away overnight because it conflicts with your worldview that involves bringing Pontiac back.
As for being affordable performance, the only way that’s going to work is hotted-up version of existing cars, specifically compacts as they would sell in larger numbers that could guarantee an ROI.
It worked with the Cobalt SS, but it could only work after GM sold tens of thousands of LT’s, LT’s, and LTZ’s.
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“For the umpteenth time: If GM revives Pontiac, my next new vehicle will BE a Pontiac. If GM DOESN’T revive Pontiac, my next new vehicle will be a non-GM brand.”
So if I say “Presenting the new 2013 Pontiac Sonic 5dr, shown here in Torch Red and availabe with a 6sp”, you’ll hand over 24K immedately solely on the basis of it having a Pontiac front fascia?
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@Moanalua “My next new vehicle doesn’t have to be “perfect.” Last I checked, there’s no such vehicle. So: Chevy is superior to Toyota? That’s a pretty bold statement. I’m not saying that Chevy is a poor brand, and I’m certainly not trying to carry Toyota’s water. It’s just that Toyota has set the standard for so long.”
Sure it doesn’t have to be perfect. But are you really going to sacrifice the quality of the car you drive for the sake of some worldview? Are you really going to invest in an inferior car because of a philosophy?
For the most part, Chevy vehicles are better than Toyotas. In 2010, after selling a business of mine, I had the opportunity to take a year and a half off. I decided to take the time off… and mostly drove cars for fun. I think I drove at least half of all cars made today. But mostly, I drove Chevys, Toyotas, Nissans, and Fords. I made a deal with a few local dealerships to drive their cars, two each day sometimes, and compensated them for it.
My result: Chevys look (subjective), drive, and handle better than comparable Toyotas and Hondas. They have better technology. They are more safe. You have to drive them back to back to understand this and see it for yourself.
Chevy has more “life” to it – for me. It’s not soul-less, like Toyota and Honda are. Once Chevy gets the new Impala, new Silverados, new Colorado, and a couple more crossovers – all of which are on their way according to the GMA blog, they will have a better lineup than Toyota through and through. Yes, better. Period.
Just so you understand where I’m coming from (and I don’t mean to come across as a show off), before I embarked on this experiment, I drove a Porsche 911 Turbo S. I could have bought myself five loaded Camaro SSes for the amount I paid for that car. But I got a Chevy Camaro.
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@Grawdaddy: Well, I’d have to see what other models the new Pontiac would have to offer. I’m quite sure my next new vehicle would be a Pontiac, but I’m not sure which MODEL it would be.
@wbodyfan: Well, I certainly respect your experiment. And as an American, I’m glad that you’ve found Chevy superior to Toyota. If Pontiac isn’t revived (and I therefore purchase outside of GM), I probably wouldn’t purchase a Toyota anyway. It would probably be an American brand; perhaps a Dodge or a Ford. (That’s despite the fact that Chrysler is being run by Fiat). My decision to reject GM isn’t so much about a worldview or a philosophy. As a consumer, I’m simply “voting with my dollars,” registering my displeasure with GM for murdering my favorite brand.
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Wbody: (yea thats right, I said WBODY: ) you arent going to tell me how to do things, I’ll use whatever key I want to use and you don’t have to like it, I dont care. I don’t care how many businesses you’ve ran (so you say). I really REALLY DONT CARE! You say Pontiac isnt viable and I say it is, we will have to agree to disagree. K thanks.
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P.S. Wbody: These new Fords are just as good if not better than the “new GM” Chevys. So Don’t think you are high and mighty with the best vehicle driving a freaking Chevrolet.
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“Wbody: (yea thats right, I said WBODY: ) you arent going to tell me how to do things, I’ll use whatever key I want to use and you don’t have to like it, I dont care. I don’t care how many businesses you’ve ran (so you say). I really REALLY DONT CARE! You say Pontiac isnt viable and I say it is, we will have to agree to disagree. K thanks.”
The true answer of a loser. That’s how someone replies when you know you’re not man enough to take it.
I couldn’t care less if you heed my advice or not. Or if you believe what I say. I have a $50,000 Camaro SS outside that I own fair and square. You have a Pontiac with 200,000 miles on it that wouldn’t get $5,000 at 9:00 pm on December 31 at the dealer.
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“P.S. Wbody: These new Fords are just as good if not better than the “new GM” Chevys. So Don’t think you are high and mighty with the best vehicle driving a freaking Chevrolet.”
Don’t pretend you’ve driven any of them.
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PontiacRulz just get a Camaro, get a firebird kit, install it and kaching! you got yourself a Pontiac!
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Thanks, Lex. That may be what I do.
Wbody: Keep thinking you have the best brand in your Chevrolet, Ford is just as good now whether you want to belive it or not douche bag. Heck I’d even put the new Hyundais up to your freaking Chevrolet. One thing that wont change though is that Pontiac will always be a cooler brand than your Chevrolet whether it’s around or not. And I want you to remember that.
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What you don’t realize is that I chose the Camaro after owning a 911 for two years. Unlike you, I buy my cars based on the car, not the badge.
You, on the other hand, haven’t driven any of the vehicles we’re discussing here and are talking out of your arse. Good going, bud. I’d love to shake your hand one day.
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No shaking of the hands necessary, I’ll just buy a new Mustang and blow your camaros doors off! haha
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@wbodyfan: If I may interject here, you said in a previous post that you have a firm grasp of consumer behavior. It just so happens that PontiacRulz and I do, indeed, purchase cars based on the badge. That’s OUR consumer behavior. You, on the other hand, purchase cars based on the car itself. That’s YOUR consumer behavior, and I respect it. Couldn’t you respect PontiacRulz’s and my position?
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@Moanalua Did I say that? I believe I was suggesting @PontiacRulz get schooled in the matter, but not by me. I’m just a lucky entrepreneur who happens to understand and know just enough to be dangerous. My firm(s) have much more knowledgeable people than me doing that kind of stuff…
Regardless, the consumer behavior exemplified by your two is rare. If not rare, close to it. Sure, it’s behavior. Everyone behaves differently. But when we talk about consumer behavior, the goal is to understand how certain demographics think and act. Unfortunately, your demographic doesn’t seem to be important, meaningful, or “powerful”. Nothing personal, just calling it how it is.
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It’s called brand loyalty, a lot of people are like that. It’s not something new.
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@wbodyfan: I can ASSURE you, brand loyalty is FAR from rare, ESPECIALLY when it comes to cars. Again, let me invite you to google “Bring Back Pontiac”, visit all the websites listed–there are SO MANY, you might not have enough time– (message-boards and threads, too, and some of the threads have HUNDREDS of posts), and then tell us how rarely you came across brand loyalty.
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You’re right, brand loyalty is not rare. But brand loyalty taken to the extreme is.
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OK: Count how many “extremists” there are on all those threads, message-boards, and websites, and let’s see how small the number is.
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However many it is, it’s still not enough to sell more than 20-30 thousand cars a year.
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Not true at all.
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Since there’s significant repetition – I reiterate:
Chevy runs deep – however, to me, Pontiac runs deeper – I too will not be buying GM until it returns – it’s Ford or Jeep for me, for now.
As far as the business case – one could certainly argue GMC is a Chevy clone and Buick is a rebadged Caprice – so why not have just one division ??
Fact is Audi, KIA, Hyundai, Fiat, Scion, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Volvo, and others produce cars that undersold Pontiac for most if not all their history – and for which Honda and Toyota could have easily produced to meet these needs – but these companies fight on.
The business case for Pontiac was well established prior to BO’s intervention – it was to have been a niche brand and would have survived with quality, desirable, economical & performance vehicles. G8, G6, Vibe and Solstice were proof of that.
Few cars have the brand loyalty of Pontiac. Their own magazine, numerous national events, manufacturers of parts (including complete new engines !) are unrivaled by all but Chevy.
The business case is in the eye of the beholder.
De-unionize. Wages and benefits on par with the foreign badges.
Move south, get great tax advantages.
Do what Capitalism does best – separate people from their money (voluntarily) and leave them feeling happy about it.
Elect Republicans such that companies can start making decisions in their interest and not in the interest of bloated unions and other special interest groups – that ultimately force what has happened here.
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“Not true at all.”
Witness an opinion with unfounded facts! No matter what reality says, it’s still “not true” and “all lies” according to @PontiacRulz. My work is done here.
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Opel may be cool to some in the US…. Never once did the car brand do anything for me starting with the Kadett and GT from back in the 60’s. Take the Saturn Astra and you’ll see most Americans didn’t think much of that with only 12K getting shipped to North America. Read the Astra threads @ Saturn Fans and you’ll see all the halfwits that have convinced themselves that the Saturn Astra is a marvel of German engineering. I drove one as my demo for a few months, and thought the car was a huge turd.
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The Astra was/is no more of a “turd” than a comparable Golf. I almost bought a 2010 XR before someone beat me to it. The car looked great and drove like a champ with crisp and precise handling. It was no 0-60 thrasher and no muscle car… but it was never supposed to be one.
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Well maybe you liked it but we could not give them away. Nine out of Ten guests that looked at the car bought something else. Thats saying alot from a Saturn retaiIer that stayed in the top three for new car sales in the region the entire time it was open. It has no power, no armrest, no console, no cupholds. It does have right hand drive hvac placement. They do tend to grind coffee going into reverse. The dic looks like ms.dos. The 14to1 steering rack is real nice seeing most compact cars are in the 16 to 1 range. Gas mileage is nothing to write home about with that 1.8L engine, nor is a hatchback that the opening is to small to get anything into. Yep it’s a great looking little car that would be fun to run on an auto cross but most buyers were looking for a daily commuter that would haul large items home from SEARS. Base price for the Astra XR 3dr was $19,115 in 2008 while the base price for the 2007 ION-3 quad coupe was $16,000 and people could buy the ION-2 quad coupe starting at $13,300. The ION sedans were cheaper yet. A supercharged 2.0L ION Redline started at $19,900. GM knew Saturn was going away long before the Astra got here so they didn’t ready it for the US market and the sales prove it.
http://autos.nytimes.com/2007/Saturn/Ion/281/3252/282645/researchOverview.aspx
PS: A good used car it may be.
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Yes, it didn’t sell well because of its high price… It should have started in the $15,000-16,000 range. And the various quircks you mentioned didn’t help it either, although I bet some saw them as European “features”. Nevertheless, it was in no way a “turd” of a car from a “car” perspective (not a sales perspective)… Even though it sold in low volumes for you.
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Wow! You miss one day and the thread grows 2 pages. :-))
A lot of back and forth on opinions. We all heard the expression about them and a**holes, but I think opinions are more like farts:
Some people try to keep them to themselves.
Some release them hoping not to create a big stink.
Others use them as weapons.
And others try to opine, strain, and crap themselves instead. πThen again, thats just my opinion on opinions…
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@Brian_E But don’t tell @PontiacRulz… otherwise you’ll get blamed for stating an opinion! π
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@gcmeninsr: “The business case for Pontiac was well established prior to BO’s intervention – it was to have been a niche brand and would have survived with quality, desirable, economical & performance vehicles. G8, G6, Vibe and Solstice were proof of that.”
BAH! Contradiction in terms! You’re forgetting the Torrent, the SV6, the G5 and the G3, cars that I’m sure you’re deliberatley leaving out because those cars were closer to the core of Pontiac sales than you’re willing to admit.
Who, apart from Rulz, would think that the G3, SV6, G6, G5, Grand Prix, Torrent, or Vibe were “desireable”? They never were; they were cars that were the complete ANTITHESIS to desireable. The same goes for thinking that they were performance cars.
As for the business case, it wasn’t workable to hang everything on identical cars Chevy sold with a weak and lackluster “performance theme”. You can’t realistically think that young people (who were targeted by Pontiac) would place performance above fuel economy IN THE FACE of rising fuel costs.
The days of affordable performance are from one source are gone forever. The only way to get it is to do like the Cobalt/Civic/Golf way and sell loads of garden varriety cars before offering hi-po versions.
That’s what Pontiac was as it decayed for the last 25 years, a “performance themed brand”. Even when it tried to deliver on that, the G8 was far outside the reach of young buyers, and could even save the brand when it was pitched at wealthier 30-somethings.
And to top it all off, it’s all Obama’s fault. Sure, that’s beliveable. Yeah, blame him when good fuel economy and reliablity STILL rate above performance in a mainstream brand.
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Well, no matter what our political opinions about Obama may be, let’s face it: He saved GM. And now that he saved GM, I would like GM to save (or, revive) Pontiac.
For those who would mock Pontiac’s last offerings: They were no worse than Chevy’s. The only Pontiac I’m kind of embarassed about is the G3, though I’d rather have the G3 than its Chevy cousin, the Aveo. And, my embarassment stems from the G3’s LOOKS, nothing else.
Didn’t we spend several posts on brand loyalty? Can’t we understand that Pontiac loyalists want a PONTIAC and not a Chevy, REGARDLESS of whether they’re badge-engineered versions of each other?
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“Can’t we understand that Pontiac loyalists want a PONTIAC and not a Chevy, REGARDLESS of whether they’re badge-engineered versions of each other?”
Then you should take the keys of a used G3 and be happy that you are truly are driving the very best the world has to offer: a Pontiac, through and through from bumper to bumper.
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As I said in a previous post, the G3 would be the LAST Pontiac model I would purchase. And obviously, it’s an Aveo clone; I wasn’t attempting to deny that. But it STILL IS CONSIDERED a Pontiac. It’s a Pontiac G3, not a Chevrolet G3. And equally as obvious, neither the G3 nor the Aveo is “the very best the world has to offer.” Where in my post was I trying to suggest that they were world-class?
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“Yes, it didn’t sell well because of its high price… It should have started in the $15,000-16,000 range. And the various quircks you mentioned didn’t help it either, although I bet some saw them as European “features”. Nevertheless, it was in no way a “turd” of a car from a “car” perspective (not a sales perspective)… Even though it sold in low volumes for you.”
It didn’t sell for anyone in North America ie “turd”
Didn’t have an aux input for sound system ie “turd”
No hp ie “turd”
No torque ie “turd”
No usefull front cupholders ie “turd”
No console ie “turd”
No armrest ie “turd”
and so on and so on.The car is a “turd” … Not a hunk of chit, a turd.
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I never stated I liked the G3, G5 or torrent. I didn’t like any of them because they were all rebadged Chevys. All I stated was that Pontiac has a lot of potential if it wasn’t plagued with rebadges and it made real Pontiacs by sticking to what a Pontiac is supposed to be. I see that nobody here on this site seems to really agree with Pontiac coming back or its potential so I will just leave the topic alone on here. It was fun debating though. I’m glad I got to show my Pontiac pride on here and thanks everyone for making this the most popular topic in the forums. RIP Pontiac, you had a good run and will be missed by me and many others.
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PontiacRulz, don’t forget me! I DO agree that Pontiac should come back, and I DO believe in the brand’s potential! And I REFUSE to say “R.I.P.” to Pontiac. I plan to CONTINUE pushing for its return.
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I didn’t forget about you Moanalua! π I just don’t see this debate going much further. I’ve said all I’ve had to say about the topic and I think everyone else has made their points like I have. If you want to continue the conversation you can go right ahead. Thanks for backing me up in this debate Moanalua, us Pontiac fans are a loyal bunch it seems. But as far as this forum debate goes, I think everything that can be said has been said.
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Thanks for YOUR support, too, PontiacRulz. The fight to bring Pontiac back MUST continue, if not on this thread and/or message-board, then on others.
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Pontiac should be resurrected as specialty performance division. Solstice GXP, G6 GXP Hardtop Convertible, G8 GXP Coupe, Trans-AM. Some of my best cars are Pontiacs!
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Right on, CorvetteDon. Welcome to the thread. Nice to have another Pontiac supporter.
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For the record, there were more Acura RL’s sold last month than there are people who care about the return of Pontiac.
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@Grawdaddy. Not true! That’s only your opinion! And that doesn’t matter! And Pontiac is like awesome… dude! :))
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@Grawdaddy: And how many people care about the return of Pontiac?
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I’m willing to bet that there are less than 10,000 people who genuinely care the way you do, @Moanalua. As in I’m willing to put real, hard dollars (or even Euros) on it. But since it would be very difficult to correctly quantify this, all bets are off.
Face it, most people ended up with a Pontiac not because they loved the brand, but because it was cheaper than a Chevy/Ford/Hyundai/Kia/Dodge/Chrysler/Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Suzuki/etc.
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You put money on 10,000 people wanting Pontiacs back. I’ll just stop coming to this site ………. The Pontiac sites I go to are not as childish & asinine as this thread.
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BTW: Acura RL sales figures for January 2012 can be found here:
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6490-en
I don’t think I’m too far off correctly guessing the membership figures for the “Bring back Pontiac” support group.
π
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You never GAVE a figure. wbodyfan said (about) 10,000. What is YOUR figure?
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@Grawdaddy: The reason I asked is that you claim, “there were more Acura RLs sold last month than there are people who care about the return of Pontiac.” I’m one of those people. So: How can you make that claim, unless you know how many people care about the return of Pontiac?
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@Grawdaddy: You know how many people bought RLs last month, but how many people care about the return of Pontiac?
Also, wbodyfan said Chevys are better-built than Toyotas. Since Pontiac and Chevy were sister divisions of the same company (GM), I have to assume that Pontiacs were just about as well-built as Chevys. So, by saying that Hondas are better-built than Pontiacs, you’re saying that Hondas are also better-built than Chevys and Toyotas. Correct?
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“It didn’t sell for anyone in North America ie “turd”
– Sales numbers don’t tell the whole story; the G8 was a great car — that sold even less than the Astra in the U.S.Didn’t have an aux input for sound system ie “turd”
– AgreedNo hp ie “turd”
– Economy car — see CruzeNo torque ie “turd”
– Economy car — see CruzeNo usefull front cupholders ie “turd”
– Really? Cupholders? Not sure when the last time was that I needed those…No console ie “turd”
– Console for what purpose?No armrest ie “turd”
– I think it did have an armrest… you could flip it back and forth…and so on and so on…”
Again, the Astra had its various quirks, but it was a good car that handled like a champ and was very fun to drive, but by no means a “turd”. Want to see a turd? Check out the Dodge Caliber, Toyota Corolla, or Pontiac G3.
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@Grawdaddy: The reason I’m “dragging Toyota and Chevrolet into this” is that a claim was made by wbodyfan that Chevy is better than Toyota. By extension of logic, you’re saying (via an earlier post) that Honda is better than both. As an American, I was glad to hear that Chevy is better than Toyota, but now you’ve said (again, by extension of logic) that Honda is better than Chevy. Who’s being “smart”?
If you’re talking of Pontiacs and Hondas of the time, I would have thought to concede that Hondas would have been better-built. But if–as wbodyfan maintains–Chevy is better than Toyota, (and if we assume that Pontiac and Chevy–as sister divisions of GM–shared roughy similar build quality), I suppose it would depend on how much better Chevy has become over the three years that Pontiac has been gone.
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Again, there’s no need to be smart by “logically extending” this matter. In doing so, you’re trying to blurr me and Wbody’s post into something that wasn’t even asked and giving unsubstantive answers.
Allow me to re-set the stage in hopes that you don’t defer from my initial post:
It’s 2008. You have the money and you need a car. You’ve boiled everything down to offerings from Pontiac and Honda. No exception from ANY other brand, past or present. The can only be compaired on what they offer in a segment.So what would you pick? Where would the smart money go?
G3 or Fit?
G5 or Civic?
G6 or Accord?
Torrent or CRV?
SV6 or Odyssey?No Element, no Ridgeline, no G8, no Solstice, no Vibe. An even, level, surface. No Toyota, no Chevrolet. Only relevant cars to 2 brands.
Furthermore, I couldn’t care less when you casually drop expressions such as this into a sentence:“By extension of logic, you’re saying (via an earlier post) that Honda is better than both. As an American, I was glad to hear that Chevy is better than Toyota, but now you’ve said (again, by extension of logic) that Honda is better than Chevy. Who’s being “smart”?”
Such statements have absolutely no bearing on this matter whatsoever and are not admissable in this dicussion. Your nationality, something you had no control over at birth, does not lend credience or weight to your argument in this discussion.
Your understanding of “logical extentions” are hazy and impercise. It’s not at the heart of this matter and won’t be considered either.
Use subjectivity, not objectivity, to reach your conculsion.
Thank you.
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@Grawdaddy: In each instance you mentioned, I would select the Pontiac over the Honda.
Who’s “blurring lines”? You said earlier that Hondas were better-built than Pontiacs. wbody said Chevys are better-built than Toyotas. I assumed that as sister divisions, Chevy and Pontiac probably had roughly the same build quality. IF I’m correct, then what? You’re saying that Hondas are better-built than Chevys and Toyotas as well. Why does this have “no bearing on the matter”? You generated the posts that brought this about.
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“IF I’m correct, then what? You’re saying that Hondas are better-built than Chevys and Toyotas as well. Why does this have “no bearing on the matter”?”
What has “no bearing on the matter”, if you had even bothered to read what I typed, is you announcing that that you were an American, and that it was somehow directly related to the precived quality differences between Toyota and Chevrolet. My concern was that you would attempt to incorporate the fact that you are an American into my hypothetical situation to avoid making a subjective judgment and relying on inferior objective judgments.
The fact that you are an American is neither praiseworthy nor a worthwhile factor to be included into the hypothetical compairson between Pontiac and Honda.
I’m sure you’re proud to be an American, as are millions of other Americans, as you have every right to feel proud. BUT, if you’re going to be subjective when choosing between two cars in the same segment, being American has as much relevance to the matter as what you colour socks you’re wearing or weather you add sugar to your coffee.
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@Grawdaddy: I really don’t know what you’re driving at. I wasn’t attempting to make a big deal about my American citizenship. I would assume that most of the people on this thread are Americans, too.
By the way, people choose their cars based on any number of factors, some of them subjective. So? A carbuyer has a right to do that. I wouldn’t think to dictate to someone else, the bases for his or her car purchases. And, after reading an untold number of posts, on an untold number of message-boards, many Americans DO adhere to “buy American first.” What’s wrong with that? It’s not for us to judge these people.
There are no “hypotheticals” here. You made a challenge to the quality of Pontiacs. How did you expect me–as a Pontiac loyalist–to respond? You claimed that Hondas were better-built. Perhaps they were. As I said in an earlier post, I might have been prepared to concede that. But, another post claimed that Chevy was better than Toyota, so I though that I might question your claim, assuming that Chevy and Pontiac were roughly similar in build quality. I see no indication of obfuscation here. Perhaps a subsidiary issue is, Honda build-quality vs Toyota build-quality, but I don’t intend to pursue that. My focus is on Pontiac, and seeing the brand return.
Apparently, your focus is on Pontiac vs Honda. You prefer Honda, and I certainly respect that. I wouldn’t attempt to criticize your choice. Likewise, please respect my preference for Pontiac.
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Look I know I said that I had nothing else to say about Pontiac coming back, and I dont. But reading this thread and hearing from Grwdaddy that Hondas were built better/of better quality than Pontiacs is absolutely ridiculous and I had to come in here and support Pontiac on this statement. I would put up a 2009 G6 vs a 2009 Accord any day and the Pontiac would be just as good if not better. Don’t even get me started on the G8. If you want to get into it even more, I’d put up my 2000 Grand Prix GT(the one in my profile picture) against a 2000 Accord ANY DAY also.
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GM really should bring pontiac back. They are losing lots of buisness due to not having a sporty division anymore. Even if they just bring back the g8 and solstice at first, or the GTO or something, im not saying they need a lineup of 10 cars or anything. GM just needs a division to focous on sporty cars, instead of trying to make buick sporty…because it never will be. Just put an arrowhead on it!
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Welcome pontiac04gt! Glad to have another Pontiac fan, there are more and more on here everyday!
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@pontiac04gt: Allow me also to extend my welcome to you! ALWAYS nice to have another Pontiac loyalist on the thread. Together, we all must carry the day for Pontiac!
@PontiacRulz: Nice to hear from you again. Your support is always timely, and on this thread you were the fiery champion of Pontiac. I hope we haven’t heard the last of you.
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“GM really should bring pontiac back. They are losing lots of buisness due to not having a sporty division anymore. Even if they just bring back the g8 and solstice at first, or the GTO or something, im not saying they need a lineup of 10 cars or anything. GM just needs a division to focous on sporty cars, instead of trying to make buick sporty…because it never will be. Just put an arrowhead on it!”
Welcome to the forum, mate.
In typical me fashion, I’m going to challenge the following points:
1. How much is “a lot” of business? Not the G8 nor the Soltice sold much, unfortunately.
2. Have you seen the 130R/140S concepts that are part of a new division within Chevy?
3. Buick isn’t trying to be sporty; it’s simply direction-less luxury; the luxury bit is also questionable. I believe that if it weren’t for the Regal line, Buick would have a very strong sense of direction in pursuing Lexus. In any event, Buick is no substitute for a sporty mainstream automobile.What say you?
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How about this:
What if Pontiac was brought back as a dealer installed options package for Chevy/Buick? I’m thinking along the lines of red arrowheads, a body kit, red dash lights, and extra hvac vents π
Then, once a year, a number of “limited edition” models could be made from the top-of-the-line models currently available. Say 2000 Regal GS’s are re-badged as Grand Prix GTP’s, 1500 ZL1 Camaros as Trans-ams or Firehawk T-As, and (if GM wanted to reach into concept cars) 200 ZR1 Corvettes re-badged as Banshees. -
Cactus I like how you think! That’s a really cool idea! Especially the Banshee part! π
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Why is there an obsession to want to ‘bring back the past’? Why bring back past Pontiac nameplates that are hardly remembered by the majority nowadays? It can’t be for ‘tradition’ as a tradition is just anything you’ve ever done more than once.
Even if Pontiac were to return, why regurgitate old namesplates? It’s isn’t going to help ‘recreate a new golden era’ of muscle cars; gas prices dictate that. Why not new nameplates as they won’t carry the ugly baggage and stereotypical blue-colar image of the past with a hypothetical relaunch of Pontiac.
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I’ll say this as a Pontiac fan and owner. Pontiac should not come back! I repeat. Pontiac should not come back. GM failed Pontiac by their indecision and lack of creativity with the brand. Those same people who failed Pontiac then are most likely still there and I believe they would fail Pontiac now. GM had full intention of killing Pontiac if not then later because they couldn’t do anything with them.
There two types of Pontiac owners. You had the Pontiac owners who just bought rebadged Chevys (the majority). You had the minority niche Pontiac owners (which I’m a part of). Pontiac owners at least where I live. We are the outcast in the local car scene. We don’t associate ourselves with the other brands. As a result, there is plenty of bad blood between us and the main GM brand of the area. In fact, we hate each other so much that the car social organizer gave Pontiacs special permission to park on the other side of the lot away from the GM crowd when all GM cars were supposed to sit by each other. So, my Pontiacs sat by the Lotus crew who loved my cars.
I also take a lot of flack for being a Pontiac fan not a GM fan. It is what it is though. That arrowhead and split kidney grill really speaks to me more than any other badge. I’m a die hard BMW buyer but the only “mainstream” brand I purchased was Pontiacs. Now, that Pontiac is gone, it is sad but for the best for the sake of Pontiac. I rather have Pontiac maintain a shred of its dignity than being further ran into the ground by the incompetence at GM’s HQ. Pontiac can be successful but obviously GM won’t make the right decisions to get to that end. What made me sick to my stomach was the public display of rubbing salt into the wound by the other brand’s supporters happy for Pontiac’s demise. Then, they would get mad at me for not wanting to buy another GM vehicle. There are a lot of people who support other brands they can easily say how they felt bad about Pontiac’s death but they are easily lying. I accept no condolence from other people or kind words from the other GM brand fans. I rather just sit back smoking a cigar looking at my Pontiacs thinking how I could have bought any other GM vehicle but for some reason I chose them. I wouldn’t be as happy with any other car.
I applaud the Pontiac supporters’ efforts in this thread but I for one will not join your crusade. Not until we have higher quality people running GM. I have received countless offers from GM begging me for my business again. I refuse as they have nothing for me and they never will I believe. I have received so many offers that I’m personally annoyed by them and every month I make sure to torch any GM offers I have received from them by throwing them into my fireplace.
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@Grawdaddy We bring back the names of the past because those are the names people remember and can relate to. That nostalgia is what will aid in the sales of those limited run cars. By your logic GM shouldn’t have named the 5th gen Camaro, Camaro. Its not even an f-body.
And am I the only one who doesn’t care about fuel economy? As long as I get mid 20s with my daily driver, I’m happy.
On a side note, (with the exception of the G8 and G6 hardtop convertible) all of the G-series Pontiacs sucked something awful.
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“And am I the only one who doesn’t care about fuel economy?”
You might be. You are surrounded, globally, by a billion other driver who do care about fuel economy. People who think mid-20’s are garbage. People who don’t look at the intersection to an on-ramp as an excuse to hit it and slide the rear-end out as they fly into the intersection and down the ramp to the highway.
You ‘tastes’ in cars is in the minority. If you’re going to choose such characteristics as what you want in a car, you need to know if they are sustainable. If they aren’t and cannot be met in todays world/socico-poltical enviroment/economy, they you have the most to lose when shopping for a car as you won’t find anything to meet your demands.
Those days of V8’s and RWD are dying, but only if you can afford to pay a premum for one. You might get RWD, but not with an LS. You’ll get an LNF, and nobody will care about Pontiac and nonsense nostagia.
The nostagia argument is a throw-back to a time that simply will never return. It is unwise to have such an unhealthy attachment to such a long-lost time period.
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@Arsenal: Welcome to the thread. I’m impressed by your passion for Pontiac. And here I thought I was passionate about Pontiac. Where I differ is that I want Pontiac to return ASAP. I’m tired of driving an orphan; I resent this stigma that Pontiac now has for being dead. I want to be driving a LIVING brand. I maintain that half a loaf of bread is better than no bread at all. ANY Pontiac is better than NO PONTIAC AT ALL, and I’m speaking as a musclecar guy who’s owned five GTOs, a Firebird Formula 400, and two Trans Ams.
Now: If there’s a shake-up at GM, and “higher quality people” start running it, will you THEN join our crusade? I can tell your passion by reading your post. You’re kind of like PontiacRulz. We NEED guys like you.
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If GM gets guys (and ladies) in there who have half a brain and can clearly indicate to me that they are ready to handle a new brand then that to me is an indication that Pontiac should be considered to have another run. Right now, they haven’t showed me that they can handle it. However, watch Opel and Holden because what they do with them will give a pretty clear answer to whether they are capable of Pontiac.
I for one will not settle for a half baked Pontiac revival because it gives more fuel to the fire for the Chevy faithful. As there are plenty of in this thread. This is where we differ and I see that we will always differ. Good luck to you and if your way does occur than I hope for Pontiac’s sake GM is ready. However, what I don’t like is that how Pontiac buyers matter when Pontiac existed now all of the sudden when Pontiac dies. They turn around and start insulting and pretty much belittling the faithful. That two faced treatment was very distasteful and has caused me to have a serious disdain for the other brands. That backwater mentality from some of the supporters of other brands (not everyone) has really in turn made me have a pure and unadulterated hatred for them. I still don’t associate myself with the decent ones out there. There is GM state meet every year and we have always rejected the invitation from them because all it would do is break up into some Chevy redneck damaging our vehicles.
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@Arsenal: I respect your position. I’ve seen a similar position stated on other Pontiac message-boards. But please: Again, if there IS a shake-up at GM, please consider joining our crusade. Even in your last post, your powerful allegiance to Pontiac is evident. Don’t go away. If an opportunity arises that meets your conditions for joining our crusade, I hope you’ll join us.
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@Arsenal @Moanalua If there is a time that has “higher quality people running GM”?
This is the most ludicrous, uninformed, and laughable comment I’ve seen this year. Can either of you actually name who is “running GM” (without doing a Google search)? If you could, you would know the following:
1. These are NOT the same people who contributed to the GM (and Pontiac) of the last 2 decades
2. These people are as “high quality” as they comeThese are the same folks who have just made GM one of the most profitable automakers in the world. Just in case you missed this report from last week, GM reported a PROFIT of nearly $8 billion in 2011, making this country stronger and more wealthy. At some point, you need to open your eyes and realize that what’s best for “the people” as a whole (a healthy economy, wealth, etc.) may not align with what you think is best for you (Pontiac).
Have a look:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/02/general-motors-reports-2011-net-income-of-7-6-billion/Ultimately, I’m all for having an educated discussion of cars, brands, and anything auto-related. But when people begin discussing subject matter in which they’re not at all informed, it rubs me the wrong way… and makes @Moanalua‘s seemingly blind crusade a huge joke. It also gives the perception that those doing the discussing without knowing their own ass from breakfast are “low quality people”.
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@alex: Hey, I’m just responding to Arsenal’s post. He claimed that Pontiac has no chance with the people running GM now. He’s not the first to say that. I’ve seen the same position taken on other Pontiac-related message-boards. I’M not asking that the people running GM be replaced. Meanwhile, a HOST of folks will continue pushing for Pontiac’s return. Are you suggesting that folks who want Pontiac back are “uneducated”?
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@alex Calm down, just because they can make money with 4 brands in NA doesn’t mean they are good enough to handle another brand on their plate. I personally don’t care that GM made a profit. I’m wealthy and I have everything that need so in the grand scheme of things. GM’s profit doesn’t matter to me and the fact that I’m happy is what matters not GM’s profit. My happiness is not dependent on Pontiac however, I personally would be more leaning towards Pontiac being sold however I know GM won’t do that. They don’t want someone who is smart enough to deal with Pontiac to make a competitor out of it and start eating away from GM’s business. No I didn’t look at the thread because this all irrelevant to my point. I’m looking for another car right now that has a manual and RWD. I wonder what could it be……..
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Guys just a couple quick questions. 1 – Do you think that because GM did not sell the pontiac name; that this is any indication at all it will return? And 2- what are the realistic chances of pontiac returning in the next 5 – 10 years (or ever)?
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1 – No. The name and associated property rights were retained as GM was the sole owner of the brand from conception to completion. Such marketable property is useful in other areas, but all things attached to the Pontiac name will, historically and inexorably, be linked to GM.
GM’s decision to retain their own intellectual property is not a reliable metric to gague when such intellectural property will brought back into the consumer market.
2 – Never. The world that allowed Pontiac to thrive in the mid-60’s didn’t exist in the 70’s through to the 00’s and never will return.
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1. There’s no GUARANTEE that GM is keeping the rights to Pontiac with an eye to reviving the brand. As owner of the Pontiac name, GM earns royalties on such items as die-cast models of Pontiacs. At the same time, keeping the rights to Pontiac DOES leave the door open for Pontiac’s return. Of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean that GM WILL go there, but at least the possibility exists. Having said that, I’ve read in countless posts on other Pontiac-related message-boards that GM might very well be keeping the rights to Pontiac in order to revive the brand at some later date.
2. On this one, follow your heart. If you want Pontiac back, keep agitating for its return. Last I heard, GM said it “would never say never” to reviving Pontiac. The scope of the hue and cry for Pontiac’s return is unprecedented. Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, and see what you get. The number of websites asking for Pontiac’s return is inspiring. Look at the other brands that were discontinued over the past eleven years or so: Plymouth, Olds, and Mercury (in chronological order). You’ll see NOTHING LIKE the effort being put into bringing Pontiac back. Pontiac was a compelling brand, both here and (especially) in Canada. It was the #1 American brand in Canada, and #3 at GM here in the US. Pontiac’s support is evidenced by all the websites you see when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”. Until GM ITSELF says it will never revive Pontiac, MAY I SUGGEST YOU KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT, and keep the faith. That’s certainly what I intend to do. I hope you might continue to stand by me and all the other Pontiac faithful across the US and Canada. Again: Last I heard, GM said it “WOULD NEVER SAY NEVER” to Pontiac.
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Grawdaddy whats your deal, why are you so against the idea of pontiac returning? what did pontiacs ever do to you? there are plenty of people in the world who would love to have pontiacs put back into production. i dont get why your so anti-pontiac, it makes no sense
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I can’t pin down the percise time period, but I belive it was somewhere between when I first heard “we build excitement” when I was looking at a 3rd gen GA, and when Lutz said “Americas’ BMW”.
But to get to the point, it’s not so much “anti-pontiac”, it’s more like “what would be the point?”. For the last 40 years, Pontiac never had much to differenciate it from Chevy, and even when it wanted to pursue that “excitement” that it vaunted so much, it was always done so with money losing cars.
It was a workable business case to make affordable performance cars. It last worked 40 years ago during Pontiac’s heyday. Nothing is as it was then and that’s why we had things like the SV6, the Torrent, and the G3; cars that had to be sold just to keep the brand viable when it’s mission statement of 40 years ago was all but a memory.
Pro-Pontiacists seem to think that the brand is “coming just around the corner”; the aforementioned and laughable 5-10 years that you think it will take to herlald Pontiac’s return. It’s not only short-sighted, but outright weird that you think such a think could happen.
Whats more, it’s blind people of the new “pontiac faith” that always play the “tradition” card like it matters any more. Tradition is dead and some people just can’t accept deadfisted facts of life. Just because your daddy had an GTO or your uncle had a turbo TransAM DOES NOT IN ANY WAY ENTITLE OR GUARANTEE that you’ll be able to have the same thing in your time.
Furthermore, you’re a minority in the car world. Not everyone wants “excitement” in their cars, they really do just want A to B transportation, not a car with t-tops and a fire chicken. Many people would have their commutes automated, and if trends are anything to go by, they soon will.
The only realistic way I could ever see such a pointless brand ever coming back, AND marketing affordable performance as it’s key selling point, would be the to kill the ICE and have full electrics take over. With the energy security bullet dodged and significant lower operating costs, you can have people move performance up their list of demands. That’s if you can get the majority of people to actualy care about such a matter so that you could market Pontiac to them.
and you think that’s going to happen in 5 to 10 years time?
Remember, it’s not “anti-pontiac”, it’s “what’s the point”?
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@Grawdaddy: It’s really very simple. Pontiac loyalists want their brand back, and we won’t accept any excuses as to why it “can’t.” IF INDEED it “can’t,” then we’ll take our business to a non-GM automaker. It’s really just as simple as that. I think I said as much, in one of my previous posts.
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@pontiac04gt: My feeling is, who CARES what the naysayers think. As you said, there are PLENTY of folks–you and I included–who want Pontiac back. Anyone who Googles “Bring Back Pontiac” would see that. That’s all we have to know. So: Keep the faith, and keep pushing for Pontiac’s return!
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“Calm down, just because they can make money with 4 brands in NA doesn’t mean they are good enough to handle another brand on their plate.”
It certainly doesn’t, pal. In fact, I would argue that introducing more brands would lead to a decreased focus and a poor(er) performance. The fact, however, is that “New GM” is a highly-successful automaker with “high quality people” running the show. End of story.
“I personally don’t care that GM made a profit. I’m wealthy and I have everything that need so in the grand scheme of things. GM’s profit doesn’t matter to me and the fact that I’m happy is what matters not GM’s profit.”
Sorry, are you an American? If not, never mind. But if you are, I would assume you would have some kind of pride that a U.S.-based automaker is doing very well; I would also assume you have an understanding of why this is important… after all, no matter how wealthy you are, a super power like the U.S. needs to “make” something and can’t rely on a “services-based” economy. This isn’t a matter of opinion, it’s a fact.
So while GM’s profit doesn’t affect you directly here and now, it does have an effect on the economy, this country, and on things bigger than you, me, and everyone else here combined.
“My happiness is not dependent on Pontiac however, I personally would be more leaning towards Pontiac being sold however I know GM won’t do that. They don’t want someone who is smart enough to deal with Pontiac to make a competitor out of it and start eating away from GM’s business.”
The Pontiac you’re looking for will not eat “away from GM’s business”… at least not in any measurable and/or sizable capacity. People are simply no longer looking for those kinds of vehicles; no matter how much it pains me to say this, it’s true.
“No I didn’t look at the thread because this all irrelevant to my point. I’m looking for another car right now that has a manual and RWD. I wonder what could it be……..”
Have you heard of the Chevy Camaro or the Corvette? I understand they’re wonderful vehicles that do tail slides very well…
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First of all, I’m not your pal. Only my friends call me pal and I don’t consider you a friend nor will I ever. I don’t even know you other than that you run this site. GM has some half decent people but they are stretched doing with what they have now. They are trying so hard to impress the American public that it’s halfway pathetic but then again if you are in such a bad way PR wise then it’s understandable. They can’t handle Pontiac coming back and I’m not the only one who said this. That is what I mean. You may prop them up if you like but if they are this stretched with 4 brands then we don’t need a fifth.
You’re right, never mind that. I guess it makes people who aren’t supportive of GM un-American. Should they revoke their citizenship as well? You expect GM’s dead brand supporters to be happy that GM is successful and buy their vehicles as well. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If they do buy GM then I don’t care but you shouldn’t expect them to be supportive of GM. Plenty of people had to pay to save GM from their sorry ways and many of those people wouldn’t dare by GM. For them, it was their hard earned money forcefully being taken from them. They would never get a return on their investment. I love Dan Akerson’s quote “GM was saved by the extreme generosity of Americans.” Really, if you want to praise the Americans (and Canadians) for compulsory generosity then so be it. It was probably best that GM was bailed out but that doesn’t mean that everybody wanted to. Chevy runs deep but not in my family (BMW runs very deep).
Thirdly, you don’t know what Pontiac I want so that makes your entire point irrelevant unless you are a mind reader.
Lastly, you can take your recommendations and shove them back into Dan Akerson’s mouth and let him choke on it. There are plenty of manual and RWD vehicles which deserve my attention (unlike the Camaro and Corvette). I do apologize I should have been more specific and said “outside of GM”. However, I will gladly consider recommendations for manual and RWD cars from foreign brands. I’m looking at a Hyundai Genesis Coupe, Subaru BRZ or even waiting longer for the next M3.
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“First of all, I’m not your pal. Only my friends call me pal and I don’t consider you a friend nor will I ever.”
Looks like I hit a soft spot. Is it no longer polite to be friendly? In that case, should I greet you next time with a nice serving of “F^ck off”? Seriously, don’t get your panties in a bunch.
“GM has some half decent people but they are stretched doing with what they have now.”
This is a simple matter of business. Pontiac and Saturn detracted from core brand (Chevrolet) sales, while Ford, Honda, et al. held a laser focus and delivered long-term brand value and trust. There is also a dealer value aspect that didn’t exist when Pontiac, Saturn existed.
In any event, the goal of a (public) company is to be profitable and to deliver value to its shareholders; having more brands won’t necessarily help accomplish this goal… nor will it necessarily detract from it. As for being “stretched”, what’s your point? More resources can always be obtained to achieve whatever goal necessary… most of the time, doing so alters the profit equation. They may be “stretched” now, or they may not be. But they sure as heck are delivering on the goal of a public firm.
“They are trying so hard to impress the American public that it’s halfway pathetic but then again if you are in such a bad way PR wise then it’s understandable.”
What’s understandable?
GM’s focus is on making the best products on the market… the PR aspect is secondary and exists thanks to people like yourself who don’t realize that fact. Every company does PR, some more than others. And GM does less than most, even today. Not sure what’s so pathetic about making excellent products and spreading the word about them via whatever means necessary.
“You’re right, never mind that. I guess it makes people who aren’t supportive of GM un-American. Should they revoke their citizenship as well?”
Good way to take things entirely out of context. Look, if you — as an American — don’t feel like supporting an American company that’s a worldwide force in an important industry, then that’s your choice. But don’t expect me to support you in doing so. GM is as American as most companies get. Whatever happened to patriotism? (Ironically, this is coming from someone born in the 80s).
“Plenty of people had to pay to save GM from their sorry ways and many of those people wouldn’t dare by GM. For them, it was their hard earned money forcefully being taken from them. They would never get a return on their investment. I love Dan Akerson’s quote “GM was saved by the extreme generosity of Americans.” Really, if you want to praise the Americans (and Canadians) for compulsory generosity then so be it. It was probably best that GM was bailed out but that doesn’t mean that everybody wanted to. Chevy runs deep but not in my family (BMW runs very deep).”
Did they now? How did you, personally, pay for GM’s “saving/rescue”? How did your hard-earned money get forcefully taken from you? Did someone go into your bank account, charge your credit card, withdraw from your IRA, or steal it from under your mattress? No… you already parted with the money you paid to the government, at which point it ceased being yours and at which point you have no say in how it gets spent.
In that light, you will never see a return on investment because it wasn’t your money being invested… it was the money you owed to the government, fair and square.
And to that end, how do you know that the Treasury won’t walk away with a profit on the “GM bailout”? Hint: they don’t need to sell their remaining stake today or tomorrow. They can wait for several years if they so desire and actually turn a profit. But then I’m sure you’ll wine that you deserve a cut of whatever that profit may be.
“You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”
I most certainly can. Just did, actually.
“Thirdly, you don’t know what Pontiac I want so that makes your entire point irrelevant unless you are a mind reader.”
and then…
“You expect GM’s dead brand supporters to be happy that GM is successful and buy their vehicles as well.”
No, I don’t… so quit your assuming. Are you a mind reader yourself?
So ultimately, you’re looking for a sporty compact that handles well. Chevy is working on something that may be suited for you…
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/chevy-130r-concept-will-be-the-most-balanced-car/Not that you should wait for it… have you considered a 1er?
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@alex I think you need to quit being so sensitive to me calling you out. All I said was that we aren’t friends so don’t refer to me in such a manner. You’re being friendly well I’m not. I’m engaging you in a non-confrontational manner that’s all I what want from you nothing more and nothing less. What’s so soft about that?
What’s pathetic is all of the commercials like their soft marketing schemes trying to make people patriotically obligated to buy their cars. Chevy runs deep, the latest Super Bowl commercials.
I didn’t take anything out of context. It was a question. That was my point. It’s not my money so why do the people get credit for it. It was compulsory. Don’t thank the people Dan thank the government who saved you. It’s still the people’s money because the government officials are established by the people who vote them in. It was compulsory as they take my money from my checks. I guess you are unfamiliar that the government takes your money. So, in effect someone can say that they took it from you. They took the money earned by working and grab it before you even see it. If it makes you feel better I’ll be sure to tell the US government that they should make the people buy GM vehicles exclusively.
No, you can’t have your cake and eat it as well especially when the cake is a lie. I’ll stop assuming when you do. Oh, great psychic.
Again, you are assuming and are wrong. I’m not looking for a sport compact. I’m looking for a manual and RWD vehicle not matter the size. Whay are you recommending GM vehicles well I take that back you are a GM fan so of course, you will always want me to buy one of them. I don’t care about the 130R nor will I settle for a GM vehicle. They don’t have a vehicle that deserves my business.
If it makes you feel better then my wife wants an ATS but she said she will buy only if I will let her use my GM card that I received for being a Pontiac owner and that when she bought it that I will move my M5 out of the garage so she could park it there. I said no to both requests.
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I call a spade a spade. If that’s being sensitive, so be it. I didn’t really follow the logic of the rest of your comment, especially the psychic or the cake parts.
The 130R isn’t out yet but falls directly in the class of car you’re interested in: RWD, manual transmission. So does the Camaro and the Vette. But just because they’re made by GM, they don’t deserve your business…
“Whay are you recommending GM vehicles well I take that back you are a GM fan so of course, you will always want me to buy one of them.”
Brace yourself… I drive a 2012 Mustang.
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All I have to say is Grawfatty is a JOKE! Someone please put a sock in that guys mouth because he is the most annoying thing i think i’ve ever come across.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4&feature=related
Oh, someone is butthurt because he can’t convince others to support his untenable cause!
Come back man, we were just gettin’ started! This is just another GM forum about a dead horse topic that you started and have since been unable to defend. It’s not my fault you have unfavourable ideas that aren’t shared by others. Perhaps you shouldn’t have such unfavorable ideas and should adopt new ones.
Back if that’s how you want to be, fine then. Keep throwing childish insults out like a toddler. It isn’t helping your orginal argument, and it just makes you look like you’re running out of steam.
By the way, there’s a spelling mistake in this sentence. Pick it out and use it as an argument. I’m sure it’s the strongest card you can play right now is finding spelling and grammatical errors as your arguments for Pontiac have all been lackluster.
Come back when you’ve got a working argument for Pontiac, not more of your white flag waving.
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I think it’s time to close this thread down once and for all.
All arguments have been exhausted… and now it’s getting to the point where personal insults are flying in the face of decent conversation. Reminds me of the guys I used to work with on an oil rig. Only different is none of them knew how to use a computer or spell.
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@wbodyfan: To me, all arguments will not be exhausted until either Pontiac returns, or GM ITSELF says it WON’T return. The problem is, we sometimes lapse into a lack of decorum. I raised the issue earlier on this thread, and someone accused me of “having my panties in a bunch.” (I later noticed that he had deleted that post).
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Grawfatty please…. Your trying to say that nobody wants Pontiac to come back? Well that’s your “opinion” I guess but it’s not true. believe me the deman is there and GM hears about it everyday. You are nothin but a joke grawfatty and i’d be better off just ignoring you cause I can tell i don’t like you. Get off my forum you greasy troll!
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@PontiacRulz Everyone has an opinion. We don’t necessarily need to respect them, but we need to be civil in discussing them. Calling people “fatty” or trolls doesn’t accomplish that. For one, @Grawdaddy is not a troll and has been an ardent supporter of GM Authority for a while.
Bottom line: if we can’t stay civil and have an educated discussion like real adults, I will close this thread down faster than GM shut down Pontiac.
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i to like pontiacs but i also like chevy. maybe pontiac fans should try to protest i mean if you want something back so bad you have to being willing to go the distance in like trying to persuade people in your neighborhood who just starting to look for their first car to buy pontiac. someone at GM headquarters must still keep track of that sort of stuff if they see that pontiac cars are still selling. i also think muscle cars make a come back. dodge is doing with the new 2012 v8 dodge charger srt8 with hemi 470 horsepower. P.S no more hybrids wheres the thrill in cars anymore
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@Firebird619 Problem is, you can’t buy a new Pontiac anymore (unless there’s that rare instance of a new unit sitting on a dealer lot). And with the current prices of gas, muscle cars won’t enjoy the same popularity… but compact crotch rockets will (think Focus ST, Civic Si).
Ironically, the latest sales numbers (for February) show an equal year-over-year increase for the Cruze as they do for the Camaro of 10.1 percent:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/03/by-the-numbers-gm-february-sales-up-1-1-percent/ -
@alex im not talking new pontiacs im talking about pontiacs in general like from a local used car dealer. and what about a protest like a group of pontiac fans in like michigan or any where close by to GM headquarters that like pontiac go and protest.
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maybe its time for GM to come up with a new brand idk think of as this pontiac had a child. Gm has to fill the gap that was pontiac. make a brand that could appeal to are generation and generation after us. a fresh start what do you think @alex. its just something i came up with last night because it is are time to come up with something new and fun so the thrill can continue are grandfathers would love that the fact that we kept the thrill in cars going just not in pontiac. we can continue the excitement that pontiac had in a different but new brand.
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guys try to come up with a brand name. we might not be able save pontiac but we can save the thrill. we will rebuild the excitement. they can take away are pontiacs but they’ll never take away are excitement. either this or grab your friends,signs, other pontiac fans, and get out there and start protesting. cause we can’t just sit here talking about it. its gotta be one or the other. can’t have both.
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@Firebird619 Have you seen the recently-unveiled Chevy 130R and 140S concepts?
My gut tells me that GM is working on a “passion sub-brand” for Chevy that will contain/define unique/passionate vehicles. For instance, there is a reason those two concepts have Cross Flags on them. Check this:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/chevrolet-concept-coupes-have-corvette-cross-flag-emblems-because/ -
@Firebird619: Welcome to the thread! (By the way, I have a Trans Am, so I like your user name). I appreciate your zeal for a GM excitement brand. However, rather than GM starting a NEW excitement brand, I would prefer that GM simply revive Pontiac. Pontiac had been GM’s excitement brand for decades, so why re-invent the wheel? If GM SHOULD have a separate “excitement brand,” (and I agree that it should), GM should simply revive Pontiac.
@PontiacRulz: Always nice to hear from you. You are the most reliable and ardent Pontiac loyalist on this thread. I’m inspired by your passion for the brand. You and I will accept NOTHING LESS than the return of Pontiac.
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@Firebird619
Pontiac was a “child brand” It came to be to fill in a gap between Chevrolet and Oakland.Pontiac was my favorite brand, hands down. I would personally be thrilled if Pontiac saw a revival, but Pontiac had zero models that wouldn’t have had success under the bow-tie. There is nothing Pontiac could produce that “New Chevy” cannot. Even Pontiac’s body styles have made their way into Chevrolet. Every time I see a Sonic I have to remind myself that it is not a Pontiac.
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@Cactus: What you’re saying has been true since at least 1971, when GM decided to outfit the new Pontiac Ventura II with a Chevy engine (if you ordered a V8). I don’t think that’s really the issue, though. For we Pontiac loyalists, it doesn’t MATTER that Chevy can build anything Pontiac could. WE WANT PONTIACS. PONTIAC is our brand. And–needless to say–I, TOO, would be thrilled if Pontiac returns. It was MY favorite brand, too, hands down!
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you guys get that the government still owns 26% of GM still right so who ever making bad choices its not GM its the government. yea former GM ceo Rick Wagoner was fired by obama and replaced him with government units who are not even car lovers.
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vote for mitt romney he’ll give GM back full control of GM. MITT ROMNEY: “Well, what I would do is immediately distribute the shares that the government has in GM to the public. Either that or sell the shares and have the proceeds go back to reducing the deficit. But the idea that the government continues to hold shares in General Motors and calls the shots there is not consistent with American free enterprise. General Motors ought to be run by its Board of Directors and its shareholders, like every other company and this insistence by the government that they get to tell General Motors what kind of cars to build and where to build them is an enormous mistake and has the potential of imperiling a company that can be successful. Look the reason these companies got in trouble was because the unions asked for too much; the management gave in too often and made some enormous mistakes of their own; the government put in place CAFE requirements that were disadvantageous for domestic manufacturers. We need to get the government out of these companiesβ hair and let them go to work to become competitiveβnot only in the U.S. but globally. The world is changing in the auto industry and weβve got to get these companies on a global footing as opposed to kowtowing to Washington.”
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“yea former GM ceo Rick Wagoner was fired by obama and replaced him with government units who are not even car lovers.”
You mean people who wanted to make cars that sold? You mean he might not have ever owned a TransAM but he has the gall to run GM?>!?
By the way, Alan Mulally isn’t a car guy at all! He worked for Boeing for years! What the hell is he doing at Ford? He better not be making FWD cars and hybrids that people are buying! He should be making Raptor versions of the F-450 and bringing back the Crown Vic!
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Have you ever thought that what you think might be right for GM is not what actually is best for GM?
The world is different, and brands like Pontiac simply don’t make economic sense.
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As for PontiacRulz, well, you’ve just proved you really don’t have any steam left. If you want, you can quietly call it quits and you won’t hear from me again, ever. But if you’re going to come back, keep 3 things in mind.
– Childish name calling makes you look childish.
– Working arguments for a hypothetical return of Pontiac.
– Threads you start are not “your property” and never will be.Thank you.
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@Grawdaddy well what i think is that GM should get 100% control of their company back and let them make choices on their own without the government’s aid. GM needs to learn how to do things on their own without government telling them which cars to sell or not to sell.
Mitt romney “General Motors ought to be run by its Board of Directors and its shareholders, like every other company and this insistence by the government that they get to tell General Motors what kind of cars to build and where to build them is an enormous mistake and has the potential of imperiling a company that can be successful”. romney has it right. general motors having the government is a huge mistake. that is whats actually right for GM no more government involvement like or not man. -
@Firebird619 That’s a much more complicated issue than what Romney, or anyone else for that matter — make it out to be.
For instance, when has “the government” interfered with the operation of the New GM? Can we point to specific examples?
And if “the government” is actually “interfering”, then I’m all for the kind of “interference” they currently have: GM is making the best vehicles on the road and is a very profitable organization. Compare that to “Old GM”… need I say more?
The political angle is pure BS in my opinion. There haven’t been any issues or examples of government interference… and if there has, it’s only worked to help the company make better products or make more money.
As someone wise once said on YouTube… “Leave [GM] alone”.
Additionally:
“Mitt romney “General Motors ought to be run by its Board of Directors and its shareholders”That’s the way it is right now.
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@alex no its not. “Leave [GM] alone” that guy was talking about the government’s involvment altogether. do you even pay attention to the primaries. cause i’ve watched all of them so far. or the news, the stock market. not only that look every where man the government still has some control over GM. and thats not right.
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I don’t think it would. Since bringing back Pontiac today virtually guarantees platform sharing, it would just be a small percentage of a production line’s total annual output being Pontiac’s; that’s doesn’t assumes there would even be a spike in demand for the defunct brand in the first place.
For example, it could be 100,000 cars that would have been Chevrolet’s anyway. If 15K are wearing a different front fascia, that’s just 85K chevy’s that share not one significant difference to seperate them from their supposed “performance brand” counterpart. It’s also 15K less Chevy’s come the end of the year. GM isn’t benfiting, and neither would the workers, they’d still work at the same rate churning out 100K cars irrespective of the badge on the front.
Furthermore, GM doesn’t need the increased marketing costs just to relaunch the brand that more than likely won’t increase sales. I also don’t think reheated G8’s or Solstices will do the trick.
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@Grawdaddy: There are lots of Pontiac loyalists who WON’T buy a new Chevy, or any new model of any GM brand. If GM revives Pontiac, those Pontiac loyalists WILL buy Pontiacs. I think that’s almost certain.
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@alex do you really think if gm was really in full control they would keep pontiac six feet under. or atleast their would be talk about a pontiac return.
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We already touched upon this, but how many is “lots”? Let’s say there are 100,000 Pontiac loyalists like yourself. It’s a downward slope, though, with the following steps at which a certain amount of folks drops off:
1. Make the decision for a new vehicle to be a Pontiac — lets say this is 100% of the 100,000
2. Qualify for financing/credit — 70-80%
3. Buy the car at the credit terms from step 2 — 70-80% of #2 aboveSo that initial 100,000 has tuned into something like 60,000-70,000 buyers. Audi sells more a year than that.
Pontiac offers no real growth or expansion opportunities past a select few such as yourself, and it would cannibalize Chevy (the brand that really matters worldwide), much how GMC is cannibalizing Chevy today.
At some point, a sale is simply not worth it due to dimishing returns. This is one of those cases.
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why are there so many negative people in this thread. i know your being realistic. don’t forget change is realistic to. people can change their minds. GM can change their minds.
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“do you really think if gm was really in full control they would keep pontiac six feet under. or atleast their would be talk about a pontiac return?”
GM is in control.
And yes, Pontiac is a non-starter because it doesn’t make fiscal sense or offer any lucrative growth opportunities past the small number of people who want the brand to return.
It’s a relic from way back when. A business opportunity doesn’t necessarily need to please everyone and anyone.
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don’t forget pontiac coming back can also create jobs.
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@Firebird619: The negativism is something that I’ve been having to deal with since I joined this thread quite some time ago. But I intend to continue defending Pontiac. I can tell by your posts that you care for Pontiac, too. Please stay with me. Let’s continue defending Pontiac; let’s continue carrying Pontiac’s banner.
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@Moanalua i am behind you 100%. pontiac will come back good things like that can happen.thats why i think GM is not actually 100% in control. i believe that the government still owns in 26%.
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@alex you can believe what you want. you have your beliefs and i have mine. okay
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@Firebird619: Absolutely. I’ve read on other Pontiac-related websites that the Feds installed people at GM who will whistle the Feds’ environmentalist tune. I’ve read that since Pontiac was a performance brand, the Feds (and their puppets at GM) are hostile to it. One post said that Pontiac won’t return as long as Akerson is at GM. Another post (by a different person) said that Pontiac won’t return unless Obama is defeated for re-election.
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So what is the point of blindly defending Pontiac on this forum?
What exactly has been accomplished here?More importantly, What would have to be done to see Pontiac return?
Please don’t say “go to another manufacturer until Pontiac returns” That logic isn’t going to help anything.
Why harm the only organization that has any chance at giving you what you want?
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@Cactus to be fair i never said i will go to another manufacturer. i sticking with GM know matter what.
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@Firebird619: I respect that, but if you do that, what incentive will GM have to revive Pontiac? It has your business anyway.
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@Firebird619 I know you never said anything about going to another manufacturer but that has been the rally cry of others on this site.
@Moanalua What Pontiac loyalist need is a well formulated plan for bringing Pontiac back from the dead. Going around stomping your foot and demanding a Pontiac resurrection like a 6 year-old is not accomplishing anything.
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@Moanalua this dan Akerson is he a fed or the fed’s puppet?
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GM has already stated that it will not sell the Pontiac brand. Therefor, the only organization who can bring Pontiac back is GM.
If you buy a new vehicle from a competitor, all you are doing is making that manufacturer stronger while weakening GM.
If you need a new vehicle and you want a Pontiac, you have to buy a used Pontiac. Buying a new Ford or Dodge or Toyota or whatever is not going to bring back the Arrowhead. All that is doing is fooling (insert any other brand here) into believing that they are building a successful product.
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@Cactus: Let’s please not get melodramatic. I’m not “stomping my foot like a 6-year-old.” I’m quite calmly (and quite maturely) saying that unless GM provides me–as a consumer–what I want, I will go to a non-GM automaker. In Economics, that’s called “voting with your dollars.” As an Econ major, I can vouch for that.
@Firebird619: I’m not CERTAIN that he’s the Feds’ puppet, but he PROBABLY is. That’s the gist I’ve been getting from other Pontiac-related websites. It would make sense, if the Feds installed people who sing their (the Feds’) tune.
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@Moanalua it will keep GM in business so they can revive pontiac. cause GM can’t revive pontiac if they go out of business i know that might never happen but in hypothetically if they did . i rather see GM alive and still jobs than them going out of business and see even more people jobs. see i want pontiac to return i do i like pontiac as much as the next guy but seeing those people lose their jobs would hurt me more than anything in world. im nice like that.
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@Firebird619: I respect your position. I’ve owned nothing but Pontiacs for 34 years; I’ve been loyal to GM UNTIL 2009, when it murdered Pontiac. Trust me, if GM revives Pontiac, I’ll be back at GM’s side in a heartbeat. I’ve said as much in an earlier post. BUT: I need to see some sign from GM that Pontiac WILL return.
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“@Firebird619: Absolutely. I’ve read on other Pontiac-related websites that the Feds installed people at GM who will whistle the Feds’ environmentalist tune. I’ve read that since Pontiac was a performance brand, the Feds (and their puppets at GM) are hostile to it. One post said that Pontiac won’t return as long as Akerson is at GM. Another post (by a different person) said that Pontiac won’t return unless Obama is defeated for re-election.”
This is what… conjecture? No, not even that — because for it to qualify as conjecture it would need to have originated from someone with at least half a brain.
Before everyone starts accusing me of being rude and such, let me clarify that I’m not referring to you, but rather the source of these “posts” you’re referring to. Although you posting/reposting it here doesn’t help.
In any event, this kind of bullshit doesn’t help your guys’ case at all. It’s like saying that Pontiac will somehow put BMW out of business… or take BMW buyers. Totally ludicrous and mis-informed.
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Man I just can’t believe I’m reading this, @Moanalua.
“I’m not CERTAIN that he’s the Feds’ puppet, but he PROBABLY is. That’s the gist I’ve been getting from other Pontiac-related websites. It would make sense, if the Feds installed people who sing their (the Feds’) tune.”
Akerson is an accomplished business man. He’s a millionaire and has served as CFO of MCI, CEO of General Instrument, CEO of Nextel (growing revenue from $170 million to $3.3 billion in three years), and a venture capital fund. I’ve no sympathy for anyone who labels the man as a puppet, especially when your sources are even further-misinformed “Pontiac-related websites”.
You should read the GM Authority blog more often, man. The best part? He’s a Republican.
You seem to be trying to spin the GM ownership/bailout story into some kind of a political conspiracy… when there’s no conspiracy to be had. Why not commend GM on making the best cars on the road… something it hasn’t done in several decades — and for making (lots of) money as well — something that hasn’t occurred in almost the same amount of time.
Furthermore, your economics argument is flawed.
What you’re doing is retaliating at GM for not catering to your every whim… economics doesn’t concern itself with emotion, as you know. So according to economics, you’re making an irrational decision. Instead of buying the best product/value (rational consumer behavior), you’re planning on going out of your way to “show ’em up”.
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@alex: Wrong. You’re trying to tell an Econ major what economics concerns itself with. There is a field of Economics called “normative economics.” In this sub-field, ALL factors–INCLUDING emotion, or ANY OTHER factor– are considered part of a person’s “utility function.” I’d like to think that I’d know when an economic argument I make is “flawed.”
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Well, I’m not an economics expert myself, but what you’re describing is more along the lines of the consumer behavior field of marketing more so than economics — which is a much more “strict” field.
Whatever the case, your stance still doesn’t make sense to me, even though you justify it; we discussed this on previous pages of this thread.
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@: Cactus:
“What Pontiac loyalist need is a well formulated plan for bringing Pontiac back from the dead. Going around stomping your foot and demanding a Pontiac resurrection like a 6 year-old is not accomplishing anything.”
Xtactly. This is the kind of stuff that requires long hard thought to flesh out the challenges of returning Pontiac. I’m all for doing the math and finding out if it’s possible, provided we’ve done the work to find data that shows how from the day Pontiac was axed we could have a working business case for it to be brought back.
It’s not as simple as badge jobs and white-faced speedometers. It’s about trying to make the brand contribute to GM’s bottom line with captivating products that get lots of people buying, not just a handful who buy into the brand because of the name. You gotta make people want to have the Pontiac over the Chevy.
As for Firebird619’s woefully unsubstantated rumor of a defeated Obama serving as the linchpin of Pontiac’s return, I ask ‘did the same person who fed you that nonsense also tell you that the earth is the centre of the universe?’
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@Grawdaddy: That wasn’t Firebird619; that was me. And don’t you think the geocentric theory is just a tad bit more outlandish than the possibility that Obama doesn’t want Pontiac back because it wasn’t a “green” brand?
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First, all appoligies from me to Firebird619 for any damages incured.
There’s nothing wrong with “greeness” and Pontiac doesn’t strike me as anymore “green” than Hyundai or VW. Also, it’s probably more likely that Pontiac was cut by GM, not Obama, as even GM knew such a brand was little more than rebadges and contrubted little to their bottom line. There was always the option for a Pontiac Volt seeing how greeness is a determining factor for buyers, but even that wouldn’t have saved the brand.
Cadillac doesn’t strike me as particularly green, yet the ELR is on it’s way. Why isn’t Obama using his god powers to shut that down? It can’t be becasue of ‘Cadillac One’, because that’s just a Chevy under it all.
Sorry, but you can’t blame Obama and his enviromental policies for killing Pontiac.
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GM has the power to bring back Pontiac.
1). General Motors Company retained assets of defunct Pontiac rather than allowing them to fall into the liquidation company. That means GM is still in control of the Pontiac brand, therefor it would be easy to return it to market.2). Market holes! Right now GM has to many luxury brands and no economy brand. The problem was originally to much saturation. With Saturn, Oldsmobile, Hummer, & Saab in the grave…the best think for GM would be to revive Pontiac as a turn car for Chevrolet. Hyundai has Kia, Toyota has Scion, GM need a cheaper turn car. Pontiac need smaller, cheaper, and fuel efficient cars with some candy…a firebird, GTO who knows.
3). Chain of dealers. GM not only already has a supply chain of dealers nationwide. But those dealers are drowning without Pontiac. Buick GMC dealers have taken a hit in volume having lost Pontiac. The value of those business and their ability to move products has fallen by the way. Those dealers have lost somewhere between 20,000 & 25,000 new car sales per month nationwide.
It would take some time, but it is definitely the smart move to get back in the Pontiac business. They’ve got the ability to produce vehicles, a network already in place to retail them, and a product whose name is still well known.
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@VistaChevy: Welcome to the thread, and thank you for defending the viability of Pontiac. I’m humbled that you would support Pontiac’s return despite the “Chevy” in your user name. That’s VERY generous of you. Thank you.
@Grawdaddy: I’M not personally saying that I KNOW the charge to be true. If you’ll go back to my post, you’ll see that I said something to the effect of, “I read on a post on another Pontiac-related website…” That’s an indication to everyone that it’s only something I’ve read on a thread, and PERHAPS should be taken with a grain of salt. Having said that, have YOU conclusive proof that Obama DOESN’T have it in for Pontiac? Have you proof that he had ABSOLUTELY NO PART in Pontiac’s murder AND/OR its CONTINUED absence? By the way, I have nothing personal against Obama. I’m a Democrat myself. If he’s not guilty, I certainly have no intention of framing him. This is about PONTIAC.
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@VistaChevy: I’ve re-read your post, and it sounds even better than it did the first time I read it! You’ve generated a post that’s cogent and powerful. Having read it again, this is what I have to say to GM: The emperor has no clothes! I MIGHT be prepared to say that Pontiac’s murder was “necessary” AT THE TIME. What a difference less than three years make. NOW GM (and Buick/GMC dealers) NEED Pontiac. I’m willing to let bygones be bygones, GM. Now BRING PONTIAC BACK.
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“Having said that, have YOU conclusive proof that Obama DOESN’T have it in for Pontiac? Have you proof that he had ABSOLUTELY NO PART in Pontiac’s murder AND/OR its CONTINUED absence?”
Yes. Obama himself didn’t make any decisions about GM’s operations, strategy, or otherwise. There’s no conspiracy theory and no one has “it in for Pontiac”.
Here’s what happened: clear-minded business people looked at the numbers and realized that it was time to drop what should have been dropped about 10 years ago. Do you have reason to suspect otherwise?
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@alex: Yes, I do. After visiting countless Pontiac-related websites on a regular basis, I do. Now, it’s true that you can’t believe everything you hear (or read on the internet). But if people are going to blow-off a claim made on the internet, I think it’s incumbent upon them to PROVE that the claim is wrong. Take YOUR post, for example. YOU say Obama had no part. I’ve read several posts on other websites that say he did. Am I to simply ASSUME that YOU are right, and not the other posters?
Furthermore: There seems to be a persistent problem on this thread regarding the popularity of Pontiac. When I Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, I get a veritable HOST of websites. To me, that speaks VOLUMES about Pontiac’s popularity, and this is 2012. And YOU post that Pontiac not only DESERVED to be dropped, but should have been dropped TEN YEARS ago. I would assume Pontiac was even MORE popular THEN than it is now, almost THREE YEARS AFTER it WENT UNDER.
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“But if people are going to blow-off a claim made on the internet, I think it’s incumbent upon them to PROVE that the claim is wrong.”
Nope. If you’re making the positive claim, the onus is on whoever is making the claim to prove their claim.
There’s a famous example of your kind of reasoning and why it’s fallacious. Sagan’s ‘dragon in the garage’ example seen from both ends.
-I have a dragon in my garage. You can’t disprove I have don’t have a dragon, therefore my claim stands.
-I have a dragon in my garage. I must prove to you that I have one in order for my claim to stand.
Pick which one makes more sense, and you’ll find that it’s the kind of reasoning that used in courts systems and by every other clear-headed person on earth.
Does the phrase “innocent until proven guilty” ring a bell? Well the same holds with your Pontiac rumors; “baseless until proven valid”.
Nobody, absolutely nobody, on GMA, FA, other automotive fourms, on Mars, or at the other end of the universe is obligated to prove your claims wrong when you can’t even show them to be right.
You’re making the positive claim. You provide the positive evidence.
If you’re going to make claims without evidence, we can dismiss your claims without evidence.
While I’m at it:
“YOU say Obama had no part. I’ve read several posts on other websites that say he did. Am I to simply ASSUME that YOU are right, and not the other posters?”
The fair thing to do is to assume BOTH Mr. Luft and the ‘post on other websites’ are incorrect, and to conduct your own research and reach your own conculsions, FULLY INDEPENDANT from pro or anti Pontiac crowds. Remain subjective, not objective. Let your findings and your brain tell you what to make of Pontiac’s fate, not your heart.
The internet is filled to rafters with personal opinions and groundless claims. You can find opinions on a Pontiac forum or even here on GMA. It doesn’t mean you should take both of them at their words.
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@Grawdaddy: If you will re-read my last response to you, you will see that I simply mentioned that a person on another Pontiac-related website claimed that Obama had a part. That’s all I said. I PURPOSELY phrased it that way so people would understand that I’m not offering it as irrefutable fact, but only as something to be considered. If I had intended to state the claim as an absolute fact, I would have SAID as much. Why does that permit you to simply sit-back and attack the claim, simply because someone else first merely MENTIONED the claim? We can’t have it both ways.
Furthermore, all those Pontiac websites I find when I Google “Bring Back Pontiac” are seen through my eyes and registered in my brain. I don’t think my heart has anything to do with the large number of websites I see. Ergo, Pontiac seems to be–even now, almost three years after its murder–quite a popular brand, REGARDLESS of whether my heart wants to feel that way or not.
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“Am I to simply ASSUME that YOU are right, and not the other posters?”
Yes, you are. I can’t provide any articles, references, or otherwise which would make you believe the fact that the Obama administration doesn’t have a hand in running General Motors, but here are some facts:
– There were people who were replaced at the top-management and C-levels
– GM is partly owned by the Treasury to this day, so one would assume that the company would have a fiduciary responsibility to all shareholders (public and the Treasury)
– But contrary to that thought process, GM does not report to the U.S. government. They report to the public shareholders, since the Treasury stake is silentLook, I’ve been watching and covering General Motors like a hawk over the last several years professionally. I’m sure the folks in the Pontiac forums have been doing the same. It matters what you do, what you read, who you speak to, and what you then take away and write about. You know, like a journalist. The only difference is I have a deep-rooted passion for the things we cover at GM Authority.
“Furthermore: There seems to be a persistent problem on this thread regarding the popularity of Pontiac. When I Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, I get a veritable HOST of websites. To me, that speaks VOLUMES about Pontiac’s popularity, and this is 2012. And YOU post that Pontiac not only DESERVED to be dropped, but should have been dropped TEN YEARS ago. I would assume Pontiac was even MORE popular THEN than it is now, almost THREE YEARS AFTER it WENT UNDER.”
I’m sure that if you Google “I want to be a millionaire” you will get even more results results than for “Bring back Pontiac”. Albeit, it doesn’t mean it will or should happen. And the fact that a website exists for a particular topic doesn’t prove its business case, viability, or reason for existence. It simply proves that people have raised the issue before.
My question to you would be:
1. How many of these websites are actively?
2. How many active users do these websites have?
3. More importantly, how many of these members will actually buy a Pontiac?Pontiac, for the last 15 years, was a lame excuse for an auto brand/automaker that sucked life out of General Motors and was partly responsible for its financial troubles that led to the restructuring in 2009/2008. The same is true of Saturn and Saab. And I’m afraid the same is true of GMC today — but that may be a topic for another thread entirely.
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@alex: Perhaps you should take a gander at those Pontiac-related websites yourself, and get a feel for them. Just because not everyone posts on a regular basis like you and I, doesn’t mean that they no longer care for Pontiac, or wouldn’t purchase a new one if the brand were revived. Furthermore, obviously: It wouldn’t be ONLY the members of those websites who would “actually buy a Pontiac.” It’s ridiculous to assume that no one aside from those members would purchase a Pontiac.
“It simply proves that people raised the issue before.” What does it tell us, when that many people “raised the issue before”? And again, those are ONLY the potential Pontiac buyers who became members.
I take you at your word that you’ve watched GM like a hawk. Does that mean others, on other websites, haven’t?
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So, google can serve as an impromt national census simply by finding similar automotive forum thread topics, and then looking at the number of posters in those threads. Why actually go about and conduct subjective research when you can just see whatever spealized banter crops up whenever you google “Bring Back Pontiac” and take it as a reliable measure of the number of people who really want pontiac to return.
BTW, googling “Bring Back Pontiac” (quotations) only nets 34.5K hits. On the other hand, “”screw Pontiac” (quotations) nets 96.6K hits.
Your ‘google argument’ really doesn’t have much going for it.
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@Grawdaddy: I beg to disagree. There is NO WAY you can shake a stick at the websites you get when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”. I never said that this was a rigorous, scientific, foolproof method of assessing Pontiac’s popularity (and hence the demand for the brand). If there WERE such a method, we wouldn’t be having this discussion about the viability of a revived Pontiac brand, as such discussion would be moot. In Economics, this state of uncertainty is said to be precipitated by “imperfect information.” Still, there is no way you can shake a stick at those websites. They DO say something about the demand for Pontiac. I think it’s quite absurd that someone can look at that, and then say it “really doesn’t have much going for it”. And, we will probably CONTINUE to have this discussion UNTIL:
1. The demand for Pontiac is definitively ascertained, OR…
2. Pontiac returns, OR…
3. GM ITSELF says Pontiac WON’T return. That’s GM ITSELF, not YOU or anyone else on this thread. Last I heard, GM said it “would never say never” to Pontiac. -
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@Grawdaddy: Well, that certainly is a possibility. But I WILL say this: IF Pontiac should return, I suspect that many of those folks will spring for a Pontiac dealer. I think it was on THIS thread (I’m on so many Pontiac-related threads, I lose track) that I posited that not EVERY potential Pontiac customer is a DIE-HARD loyalist of the brand. Pontiac had all sorts of customers: Some liked the brand–that’s why they BOUGHT one–but not enough to stay active on threads like this. Still other Pontiac customers never bothered to join a thread at all. Then there are the diehards like PontiacRulz and I, and still others that fall somewhere BETWEEN those three types. Bottom line: They ALL purchased Pontiacs. There’s a difference between losing interest–and “simply stopping caring”–about staying active on Pontiac-related THREADS, and losing interest and simply stopping caring about Pontiac THE BRAND. In Economics, we could say that a “multiplier” should be applied to all those Pontiac-related websites. I.e., the folks on those threads represent but a SMALL FRACTION of folks who WOULD INDEED purchase a new Pontiac–for WHATEVER reasons–should the brand be revived.
But you’re right, we DO have all the time in the world, and time WILL tell whether Pontiac returns.
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There is one thing that I can’t understand, and you did highlight it.
“that not EVERY potential Pontiac customer is a DIE-HARD loyalist of the brand.”
To me, it would seem that anyone who would want Pontiac to return AND would buy a new Pontiac would be that kind of person; someone who would have a windshield banner, an older model SC/3.8 GP, or perhaps a G6 GT that they hold in high reguard. I mean there were some few fleating highpoints in Pontiac’s later years, but it isn’t exactly earthshattering features that everyone will remember, or even hype up.
For example, for one model year there was a Cobalt SS/TC sedan. Only one year, while the coupe SS/TC sold for 3 years. Why is that important? Because a group of people even smaller than Pro-Pontiacists belive that the Cobalt SS/TC sedan is one of the greatest sport compacts of the last 5 years and are angry at GM for not offering it alongside the coupe. They are free to feel so, but will it matter in the long run? No. That model and bodystyle will be forgotten to and they will eventually have to move on. They need a contingency plan if they are going to dig their heels in and hold such opinions and feelings for the long term. If the awful reality sets in and they realize they can’t get what they want, it will hurt very badly.
I guess what I’m saying is that perhaps someday in the future, you’re going to realize that the likelyhood of Pontiac returning is very unlikely and you’ll have to make a hard choice. You’ll weigh the value of Pontiac as a whole versus wether or not it’s worth trying to justify holding the brand in such high reguard in light of all the time that has passed since Pontiac was closed.
On GMA’s blog not too long ago, there was a NASCAR post in which someone said (to the effect of) “you’re going to tell me everyone on here (GMA) isn’t a brand rooter?”. I said no; I’m just here to monitor and comment on GM’s performace.
The same can be said for a brand like Pontiac. It’s one thing to root for a brand. It’s another thing to live inside one.
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1. I don’t agree that it’s “unlikely” that Pontiac will return. It’s certainly not GUARANTEED to return, but I wouldn’t say it’s “unlikely,” either.
2. As far as I know, there’s no law against “living inside” a brand, as opposed to (merely) rooting for it.
3. I already HAVE a contingency plan, should Pontiac not return, and I think I’ve alluded to it several times on this thread: I will take my business to a non-GM automaker when I purchase my next new vehicle. I’m already ready for “the reality to set in,” IF it comes to that.
4. There’s no reason to assume that every diehard Pontiac loyalist “wears his heart on his sleeve.” My Trans Am has no additional Pontiac decals or stickers; only the ones it came with from the factory. -
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So how long are you willing to wait for a response about Pontiac?
Given GM’s history, they tend to wait for anniversaries before renewing a dead product. (Camaro: debut 1967, Concept debut 2006-2007. GTO debut 1964, renewed in 2004) I believe Pontiac was founded in the early-mid 1920s.
We could be looking at a decade before we get any answers.
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@Grawdaddy: As a matter of fact, I WOULD like to live “inside a theme park where EVERYTHING I see and do is branded Pontiac.”
@Cactus: Well, when my Trans Am gives out, I’ll purchase a new car. If GM at least gives an INDICATION that Pontiac might be revived, I might decide to replace my Trans Am with a used Pontiac. If there is NO such indication, I’ll be headed for a NON-GM auto dealer for a new car. If it takes ten years for Pontiac to return, I’d be willing to wait that long, but I’ll need to see SOME KIND of sign or announcement from GM that it might–or, better yet, WILL–return. Otherwise, I will have purchased a new, NON-GM vehicle.
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Why should Moanalua be prepared to die hard? Pontiac could come back one day, and you would look pretty stupid with all your anti-pontiac garbage
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OR, Pontiac doesn’t return and you’ll and look “pretty stupid” with your pro-Pontiac nonsense.
The only difference is that I’m not losing sleep over Pontiac coming back or not, nor is millions upon millions of other people.
Tommorow’s another day for me and those millions. It’s not a day I’ll spend crafting together a “heart-tugging” email to GM where I rattle on about ‘tradition’, or a day where I obsess over the number of hits Google returns for “Bring back Pontiac”.
I’m pretty sure Pontiac and it’s hypothetical return will be among some the furthest things from my mind tommorow.
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@Grawdaddy: Did pontiac04gt or I say we were losing sleep over Pontiac? Also, if there’s anyone obsessing over “the number of hits Google returns for ‘Bring back Pontiac”, it’s you. I’ve mentioned several times the many websites one finds when one Googles “Bring Back Pontiac”, but I don’t obsess over it. In fact, I don’t even know how many hits Google returns for it. Finally, just because Pontiac will be among “some of the furthest things” from YOUR mind tomorrow, doesn’t mean it will be among the furthest things from my mind, or that of pontiac04gt, for that matter.
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Guys, we seem to be arguing semantics and hanging on each others’ words at this point.
Fact is, if you actually follow GM and its numerous strategies closely, you’ll realize that the revival of Pontiac is not even on the radar. There are those that want the brand to return badly, but it’s not happening. And unless GM has a wild change of direction, it’s not going to happen.
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Which brings up a question for you, @Moanalua:
I’m guessing from some of your previous messages that you don’t have a family (kids, wife, etc.). If I’m incorrect in assuming so, stop me right there. But I’ll go on anyway for the sake of going on.
Let’s say you did have a family and you were in the market for a safe, practical, and reliable family vehicle. And let’s say that you and your significant other decided that a crossover would be the best type of car for the family.
Would you particularly go out of your way to avoid GM and, say, a Chevy Equinox or Traverse, just to bring your anti-GM vendetta to life? Just wondering…
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@alex: Yes, I would. GM isn’t the only automaker building safe, practical, and reliable family vehicles. And by the way, this anti-GM “vendetta,” as you put it, will continue ONLY if Pontiac DOESN’T return. Quite frankly, I think “vendetta” is a little too strong a term. In Economics, this is referred to as an “economic sanction.” An “economic sanction” is defined as a withholding of economic rewards (in this case, revenue) from those (in this case, GM) who refuse to emit desired production activity (in this case, bringing Pontiac back into production). In Economics, this isn’t considered a vendetta. It’s about sending “market signals.” These are signals that consumers send–via their purchases–to producers of goods and services, that these producers might make adjustments to what they offer on markets. Of course, in THIS case, we’re talking about the “market” for new autos.
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To reiterate — if GM made the safest (NHTSA-rated) vehicle in the segments you were shopping, you would allow an “economic sanction” to put the lives of your family at risk.
In other news, the business world is about much more than good-ol’ economics. I’ll leave it at that.
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“An “economic sanction” is defined as a withholding of economic rewards (in this case, revenue) from those (in this case, GM) who refuse to emit desired production activity (in this case, bringing Pontiac back into production).”
Call it a sanction all you like. Pontiac is not something that the masses want, especally when you’ve tried to frame GM as an organization “who refuse to emit desired production activity”.
Pontiac, in today’s world, simply isn’t desirable, and any kind of consumer reaction for Pontiac is far, far, far too small to impact GM and it’s day to day affairs. If calling it an “economic sanction” makes you feel better, fine, but it’s hardly making a dent in GM’s balance sheet.
To me, the way you’ve tried to pitch “economic sanction” is like still being angry at Coke for killing ‘New Coke’ and demanding new Coke to return lest a minority of buyers stop buying from Coke…..when millions upon millions of people have given up their money for Coke classic.
Blutly, you’re a minority consumer. Why should GM care about you and your small, costly demands?
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@alex: Life is risky. You can never totally eliminate risk. I WOULD entrust my family’s safety to an automaker other than GM. It would be a stretch, wouldn’t it, to say that non-GM automakers build unsafe vehicles. Also, HOW MUCH of the BUSINESS world ISN’T about “good-ol'” ECONOMICS?
@Grawdaddy: It’s seems to me that you’re presuming yourself to be the voice of God, making such provocative statements as, “Pontiac simply isn’t desirable” Does that you mean you raise zero websites when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”? And what about the Pontiac loyalists on THIS thread?. Also, I’m only ONE consumer. I never suggested that my economic sanctions alone would “make a dent in GM’s balance sheet.” However, I would assume that as a business, GM would–and perhaps should–care about car buyers’ demands. And, isn’t “small, costly demands” an oxymoron? Finally, might you not be hoisting yourself on your own petard, when you mention Classic Coke? (And how’s THAT for IRONY?) At one time, no one thought THAT would return.
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Ok I LOVE Pontiacs. And in my area of the country, there are many loyal fans! I can’t believe someone had the ignorance to say the brand wasn’t an exciting excitement division. Have you all forgotten gp was a pace car!? I don’t know what kind of cars the naysayers drive but I’d be willing to bet the majority don’t have nearly as much fun driving as those of us lucky enough to drive a pontiac! π
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“I can’t believe someone had the ignorance to say the brand wasn’t an exciting excitement division.”
Spot on, @Angelarohr84. Pontiac was definitely an exciting brand. I still lust after the G3, G5, Torrent, and SV6. Even the FWD-based GP was a hoot. None of those can compare to the horrible Camaro of this day.
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1.) It is becasue I am a god that I talk with such authority.
2.) If you’re going to keep throwing up the same tired old “google hits” nonsense, as I’ve told you before, I got more hits for “screw Pontiac” than you’ll get hits for “Bring Back Pontiac”.
Go ahead. Google “screw Pontiac” and see for yourself, that more people are glad Pontiac is gone than care for it to return.
3.) “And, isn’t “small, costly demands” an oxymoron?” It is when you’re making cars that aren’t mainstream like the GXP’s, the Solstice, and the G8. Your demands are small when they aren’t reflected in the mainstream.
Small volume, costly to make; small costly demands of a minority consumer
4.) It was a simple analolgy that went over your head. You’re missing the bigger picture. New coke was Pontiac. Classic is everything else at GM. The people demanding for the return of new Coke are the losers and those who think they are somehow empowered by your “economic sanctions”.
No, the word you’re looking for is not “economic sanctions”, it’s “protesting”. You’re protesting GM because they won’t make unwanted SV6’s and horry-old G5’s.
Better go get a tent for your occupy RenCen movement.
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1. Oh, you ARE a god? Care to show us your credentials?
2. I have no interest whatever in the “screw Pontiac” websites. Furthermore, I’m not talking about “google hits.” I’m talking about the number of websites oriented towards bringing Pontiac back.
3. I’m afraid that what went over YOUR head is that you stuck your foot in your mouth, by mentioning a product (Classic Coke) that RETURNED after being murdered. Furthermore, how many people are demanding the return of New Coke, as compared to those demanding the return of Pontiac?
4. Yes, I AM protesting. An economic sanction IS a form of protest. By the way, it also IS a form of empowerment.
5. Isn’t it kind of moronic to imply that the GXP, the Solstice, and the G8 were mainstream cars? Of COURSE they weren’t. They were intended for niche buyers. Pontiac was versatile, offering vehicles that appealed not only to the mainstream buyer.@Angelarohr84: Welcome to the thread. Always nice to have another Pontiac supporter.
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@Grawdaddy: Correction. You DIDN’T say that the GXP, Solstice, and G8 were mainstream. Misread that part of your post. The fact remains, however, that Pontiac tried to be versatile, offering vehicles to both mainstream and niche buyers.
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I haven’t commented in a while, but I’ve still been following this thread.
It is undoubtedly a spirited debate, but I’m curious:@ Moanalua & Grawdaddy: What are you two trying to accomplish?
Graw, do you realize that no amount of reasoning is going to change how Moanalua feels about the loss of Pontiac? Its apparent by his tenacity on several forums, including this one, that he is thinking with his heart on this. If you’re trying to convince him that Pontiac returning is a lost cause, than is it possible that you’re argument otherwise is a lost cause as well?Moanalua, do you realize that no amount of heartfelt discussion is going to change the facts as Grawdaddy sees them? He has repeatedly brought forth statistics and evidence to contrast with your views. Do you believe that you will change his mind?
Guys, you both are arguing from two disparate worldviews. And now the discussion has devolved down to semantics and tearing apart the words used instead of focusing on the point and the understanding you’re trying to convey.
So what are you two trying to prove? That Pontiac should return? You each have proven yourselves right. And both of you adamantly believe the other is wrong, and are unwilling to concede that the others’ point of view is untenable. It seems like you’re at an impasse.
A very wise man once asked: “What is Truth?”
Another respected man has been attributed to this question: “Who is the greater fool? The fool, or the person foolish enough to argue with the fool?”
(I don’t claim to know the answer to any of those questions.) π -
i just think its too bad had the held in there for a couple more years boom trans-am.
although i agree with chevys more performance based now how would the pontiacs be different. i just think its been gone for too long if they would have brought it back when they brought back the camaro it would have worked but its too late now. oh and lex definately agree with bringing back hummer and make it a competitor for jeep -
sorry didnt read full post before posting this^ however its true. and way to go Brian_E great way to dissolve an argument i applaude you
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@Brian_E: All I’m trying to do is defend the cause of reviving Pontiac. If someone tries to attack that cause, then as a Pontiac loyalist I feel obliged to defend it. If you’ll re-read my posts, my concern is not so much to change Grawdaddy’s mind, as it is to defend Pontiac. Grawdaddy is entitled to his opinions/beliefs, but when he gets on this thread and uses those opinions/beliefs to denigrate Pontiac (and the effort to revive the brand), then again, I feel obliged to respond. I.e., I’m not trying to challenge Grawdaddy so much as I am trying to defend Pontiac. If there’s anything I’m trying to “prove,” it’s that Pontiac should be revived. I’m not necessarily trying to suggest that Grawdaddy’s position is untenable; obviously, other people share his position. What I AM suggesting is that my position is just as tenable, and obviously, others share my position.
@chevtothemax: I prefer to see it as a discussion rather than an argument.
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^ What Moanalua said, but with my name and his swapped as neeeded.
If anything, Moanalua is doing his part just fine.
We both might run out of steam, or we both might invoke Godwin’s law, or we might reach a conclusion; be it an agreement or agreeing to disagree. Heck, we might even go around in circles a few times.
I don’t think any of us are truly suffering in this thread or outside in the real world.
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@Grawdaddy: Re Godwin’s Law, I have no intention of calling you a Nazi.
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