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Who thinks it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again?

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    • #38205
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      GM needed to get rid of Pontiac so it could get its act together, we all know this. But I think it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again. GM is missing an important segment now, the affordble performance. All they have is the Camaro which isnt affordable for say a 20 year old if he wants a fast Camaro. The base is about the only affordable one. Where are the 4-door performance cars? Chevy competes with the generic mainstream brands like Honda, Ford, Toyota. Pontiac should compete with the sporty mainstream brands like Nissan, Mazda, Volkswagon and even Scion. Buick competes with the Japanese luxury cars and Cadillac competes with the German luxury cars. GM needs Pontiac!

    • #38438
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      Ironically, the sport mainstream brands you mention are trying to become more less sporty and more mainstream, while the “generic mainstream” ones are trying to become more sporty. Case in point: Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Civic Si. VW, Mazda, and Nissan are trying to appeal to the mainstream with their offerings since they currently have a low volume, and much increase it to stay profitable.

      I think what needs to occur is for Buick to go away and eventually get replaced by Opel, which will offer slightly more upmarket yet still affordable sporty vehicles. Chevy can easily offer affordable but high-performance versions of the Cruze, Sonic, Malibu, and even Impala. The base models of those cars are spot in terms of handling and drivability; they just need an option for more power and oomph. And that’s really what Pontiac failed to do with the exception of G6 GXP and G8.

      PS: I’m loving this forum guys :)>-

    • #38441
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Reply to @wbodyfan Thanks man! We’re glad you like it!

      Here’s my question: can the new GM resurrect Pontiac even if it wanted to? As in does it not own the rights to the name anymore vis-a-vis bankruptcy?

    • #38442
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      @wbodyfan: I think GM should leave fuel effciency to Chevy, ya know have that brand compete in the fuel effciency game. Resurect Pontiac and make it about performance…but of course do their best to also make Pontiac as fuel efficient as possible haha. At the end it was sad that GM actually thought cars like the G3 and Aztek were suitable to wear a Pontiac badge, but they also had the some pretty sweet cars there at the end like the ones you mentioned and the Solstice…also did you forget about the Grand Prix GTP and GXP? Those things were beast! Pontiac needs to return, it will do GM a lot of good.


      @Alex
      : Yes the New GM could resurect Pontiac because during the bankruptcy, they never sold the Pontiac name so they still own the rights to the name. Some guy actually tried to buy the Pontiac name during the bankruptcy but GM said no. Maybe they will resurect the brand when the economy and their profits are doing well enough!

    • #38443
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Reply to @PontiacRulz: I see. I feel, though, that whatever brand GM introduces or resurrects will be global going forward. At that, I think @wbodyfan is spot on about bringing Opel to the States. Opel already exists in Europe and will soon be made available in all locations excerpt for North America.

      How do you feel about Opel?

    • #38444
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I don’t like Opel. But I don’t know much about it either and dont want to honestly. You are right about the global thing, If GM were to resurect Pontiac then it would more than likely need to be a global brand from that point on or atleast be sold in a few other countries as well. I don’t know if you have looked at GM’s facebook page in a while but there is always SOOO many people on there saying they want Pontiac back. If GM listens to it’s customers then it will bring the brand back because so many people want it back and I know GM sees, it’s hard not to see it.

    • #38446
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      Opel is basically the German sporty brand for the mainstream. It’s affordable and its vehicles are fun to drive. You should really look into its entire lineup. Aside from the stupid Combo van that is now based on a Fiat, I would drive any Opel vehicle — and this is coming from someone who drives a 2012 Camaro and is about to get an Equinox. Previously, I had a G8. And previous to that, the (new) GTO.

      That said, Pontiac will never become a global brand. It sounds awkward and will simply cost way too much to globalize it (@alex should like that term).

    • #38447
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I have to disagree with you, I think Pontiac has a lot of potential to become a global brand. What do you mean “sounds akward”? What are you talking about??

    • #38448
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      Well, for starters, can you imagine a Russian or Chinese person saying “Pontiac” — just the word itself? They’ve never even heard of it — so take up would be very difficult.

      Secondly, it would be extremely expensive to launch a new brand in markets that are new to it. That’s why Opel, having a global presence except for that in North America, has a much better chance of being “globalized” — it already exists (or will exist this year) in most of the world and is also respected in most of the markets in which it is sold. It would cost a tremendous amount less to bring Opel to NA than it would to 1) bring back Pontiac in NA and then 2) make it global.

      On top of that, how and where would Pontiac be positioned in über-competitiev markets like Europe?

    • #38449
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Well honestly I don’t care what a Russian or Chinese person thinks about the word Pontiac. It is an American brand and when they say the name they wont forget that. How about Hyundai here in America? Do you think we Americans loved that name at first? No lol. I understand that Opel has global presence but your thinking is backward. You think that since the world (except for North America) knows about Opel that we should use Opel. I think that because the US people want Pontiac back and because Pontiac is a brand that AMERICANS love that it should be brought back soley for that reason. We do what America wants first, not what the world wants.

    • #38453
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      It doesn’t matter what kind of thinking we utilize — forward or backward. If this ever does occur, it will be a business decision. Not one of sentimental value or national concerns.

      And I’m willing to bet that Opel has a bigger chance of coming here than Pontiac does becoming a global brand. That’s just business, plain and simple.

    • #38454
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      We will have to agree to disagree, Alex. I do have to ask though, where do you get your info about GM? I heard a rumor GM is thinking about bringing it back.

    • #38455
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Reply to @PontiacRulz: Which info, in particular?

    • #38456
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Just all the new info on this site you put up as new news. How do you find out all the new stuff about the latest at GM? Let us know if you here anything about Pontiac coming back please!

    • #38457
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Reply to @PontiacRulz: Some of our stories are from internal sources the identities of whom we do not disclose. Other than that, other stories have 3rd party sources or press releases listed at the end of the particular article.

      Nothing about Pontiac as of yet, though.

    • #38458
      Vic1212
      Participant

      I would say they should bring back Pontiac as a affordable sports machine.

    • #38459
      IainVauxhall
      Participant

      I think it’s incredible how differently Americans view Opel to how Europeans do. In Europe it is possibly the least cool brand of car, and they’re considered to be desperately dull to drive.
      Europeans laugh at them, usually. It’s extraordinary how you say their image is of ‘the German sporty brand for the mainstream’ when they’re not even viewed as being particularly German. More ‘pan-European’.

      However in Britain, where they’re branded ‘Vauxhall’, they’re the second most popular brand of car (behind Ford, but considered cooler than Ford, with more potential to boost sales), and most young people want a Corsa as their first car.

      Whilst Opel may have the right image in America, please accept that it’s reputation and image COULD NOT BE WORSE in Europe. In this comment, I’m considering Britain and Europe to be different entities, as in terms of buying cars, we definitely are.

    • #38460
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Reply to @IainVauxhall: That’s quite interesting — thanks for sharing. I’m actually quite surprised by the opinions of many Europeans (outside of Britain, I guess) in thinking that Opels are dull to drive. Outside of VW, I can’t think of another mainstream automaker that makes as great/fun-driving cars as Opel. Toyota and Nissan certainly don’t come close. Neither does Honda, although its lineup is somewhat different in Europe compared to the States.

      I think the image issues you describe can be repaired in the long run. It’s amazing to me how Kia and Hyundai have turned the perception of their brands completely around in the US and Canada — only in a matter of a few short years. Any reason why Opel couldn’t do the same?

    • #38462
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      Like many GM faithfull I was shocked by Pontiacs demise. At the end of the day GM is only able to sustain one truly globalized brand which is Chevy. While it has its other 2 major brands in some international markets I feel to sustain any brand in the future these brands will have to expand further. GM might be able to sustain a small national focused sports brand in Pontiac but it would have to lean heavily on the likes of Opel based.platforms or even Holden platforms. My idea would be resurect the brand with 3 sporty vehicles that carve out a niche in the market. Pontiac would only offer V6’s or all wheel drive only might have to be a sub-brand for Cafe reasons.

    • #38466
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      It’s also a bit of a business “swamp” for GM. There are so many Pontiac faithful that were pissed off by its discontinuation that anything Pontiac-related today could spur more hatred… Like making it a sub brand.

      At some point, it gets to be more trouble than it’s worth, you know?

    • #38469
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      True…

    • #38473
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Not to take this off-topic, but I still remain a huge proponent of bringing Opel here. It would even have the added strength of being “European” — and most of those products fare very well with Americans.

    • #38488
      lt1george
      Participant

      It would be great to bring back Pontiac. I don’t think anybody would have any speaking Pontiac name. Camaro is in China.
      Earlier today, (March, 2011) SGM announced that Chevrolet will introduce the legendary Camaro sports car at Auto Shanghai 2011 in April. The Camaro will have a sonorous Chinese name – 科迈罗 (Ke Mai Luo). The Ke Mai Luo with a 3.6-liter engine will be priced around RMB 500,000.

      In recent years, China’s luxury sports car market has been flourishing, highlighted by the midsize luxury segment (priced at RMB 400,000–800,000), which grew 141% in 2010. At present, this segment is dominated by cars with European design. The Camaro, with its “masculine” styling, will be a welcome addition.

      Additional details about the Camaro will be announced at the Shanghai auto show

    • #38496
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      That’s great, but Pontiac still has very low chances of being a global brand. And without a unique product portfolio — which will be expensive to make for a single continent (like North America) — its chances of being resurrected are nill. That’s reality, although I wish I could introduce some wishful thinking. :((

    • #38505
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Aside from the product portfolio for a minute, I don’t see why Pontiac couldn’t be a global brand. I think it would make a great global brand.

    • #38507
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz Because the barriers to doing so are humongous. Here’s what would need to occur to make Pontiac a global player:
      1. Design, develop, and engineer a new product portfolio (very expensive)
      2. Resurrect the brand in the U.S. and Canada (cheap)
      3. Market a brand that’s been off the market for the last two (or more) years (mildly expensive)
      4. Coordinate dealer activities to sell the product (cheap in NA, very expensive outside of NA)
      5. Repeat steps 2 through 4 in markets outside of North America (prohibitively expensive)

      A brand like Pontiac would add very little value in uber competitive markets such as Europe while taking volume away from Chevy.

      My question is this: how would Pontiac be different than Chevy, keeping in mind that most, if not all vehicles, will share architectures with those from the Bow tie?

    • #38510
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Pontiac used to be and in my opinion always has been more sporty and performance driven than Chevy. Sure share the architecture with Chevy but put a supercharger on the Pontiac…and make the Pontiac look more Pontiacish haha, you know more muscular and aggresive. Pontiac has an identity and if that identity is kept in place when the brand is brought back, it will be a PONTIAC and not a Chevy.

    • #38519
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      I want a boosted four like on the Cobalt SS. Those things hauled ass and sounded mean from the factory!

      I’m all for bringing Pontiac back, but as @alex pointed out – it would be very difficult to make a business case for its return.

      What I’d recommend is to give all Chevys a performance variant with a high pressure turbo or a supercharger. That should satisfy the performance crowd that looked for that in a Pontiac. And this is coming from a former GTO and G8 owner… currently driving a 2012 Camaro.

    • #38523
      IainVauxhall
      Participant

      @alex
      You have to remember that those brands produce different cars for our market. In the EU there is far more focus on the driver. Vauxhall is often considered to be dull to drive – as is VW. The only mainstream brand which is really considered to have a sporty feel to drive is Ford – unfortunately this doesn’t translate into the looks and image of the cars.
      Back in ’98, when they released the first Focus, it was like genesis here. If you look at the Astra it had to compete with, GM was 20 years behind. But from there, the Astra improved, whereas the Focus became dull, and then repellently ugly and the driver focus also suffered. I could not contemplate the current Focus against the Astra, or the Mondeo against the Insignia.

      I’m a firm Vauxhall fan, when it comes to mainstream cars offered in the UK. I would not hesitate to recommend my car, and neither would my family (my mother relies on it a lot with her BMW being back with the dealer so much 😉 )

      By the way, she’s thinking of having a Volt next, or possibly an Astra. She’s not changing yet, so we’ll see. But I’ve managed to pull her firmly into the GM stable after a string of Audis and BMWs. My brother is planning on a Corsa when he finally gets to buying a car (he’s 17 soon, the minimum driving age here)
      So GM is certainly doing right by us, and I’ve persuaded a lot of friends into Vauxhalls from VWs, none of whom have looked back yet!

    • #38536
      Moanalua
      Participant

      People, People, People! I think some of you are underestimating the strength of the Pontiac brand. Let’s not forget that when GM murdered Pontiac, it was outselling Buick TWO-TO-ONE! That’s right: Two-to-one. We don’t have to sit on our hands and moan about how we’d LIKE to see Pontiac return. I’m suggesting that not only CAN it return; it SHOULD and MUST return! Pontiac was doing well enough to survive, except for that doggone Great Recession. Well, that recession is OVER. So, too, should Pontiac’s premature and ill-advised death. Unlike people, automobile brands can be brought back from the dead. In fact, I prefer to think that Pontiac merely went into hibernation. They say that you can’t keep a good man down. Well, you can’t keep a good BRAND down. Pontiac had a large and loyal following (much larger than Buick’s), it was offering five or six models (compared to Buick’s THREE! How pitiful is THAT?), it had a G8 Sport Truck being planned (kind of like a Pontiac El Camino), it was an iconic, legacy brand (built the GTO, the US’s first musclecar, and thereby ushered-in the musclecar era), it was positioned as GM’s competitor to BMW (with Pontiac’s best BMW-fighter being the G8), there was heavy demand for a new Trans Am (and there STILL is heavy demand for it), and it (Pontiac) sold well in Canada. Did I leave anything out? The Great Recession is over, it’s time to bring Pontiac back! No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Pontiac is still a strong brand with a large and passionate following. Quite frankly, I’m sure that it would be financially viable. GM, PLEASE GIVE IT A SHOT!

    • #38543
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I agree 100% Moanalua! It’s just getting GM to bring it back that will be the trouble. I think it can be done though, there are so many people who want Pontiac back and I know GM sees it. Hopefully as soon as the government is completly out of the company they will start thinking about Pontiac a little more.

    • #38553
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Yeah. We MIGHT have to wait until the Feds get out of GM’s hair. Did it ever occur to the Feds that there are taxpayers who want Pontiac BACK? We need to keep our passion for Pontiac hot. And then, when the Feds finally scram, we need to apply a full-court press on GM to bring Pontiac back. Pontiac fans: There are a LOT of us out there. I ask each of you: HOW MUCH do you want Pontiac back? If you want it back badly enough, then please JOIN that full-court press. Thank you.

    • #38560
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @moanalua It’s the same questions we’ve discussed here before that will need to be answered:
      1. Who will buy Pontiacs
      2. Will it be enough to make financial sense (a profit)
      3. How will Pontiac be different than Chevy vehicles?

      In its last incarnation, Pontiac didn’t offer much differentiation between its Chevy counterparts. In fact, most Pontiacs were plain-on Chevy rebadges, with the exception of Solstice, GTO, G8 — and there is a good argument to be made that the Solstice and G8 would have been better off as Chevys. The new GM — feds or no feds — will not do anything to in any way compromise Chevy’s mass-market appeal. So the question remains — how will Pontiac be any different?

    • #38562
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Remember: The only reason Pontiac was killed-off was the Great Recession. I don’t think Pontiac has to be RADICALLY different than it was just before the recession.

      1. Who will buy Pontiacs? Why not the same folks who were buying them before the
      recession?
      2. If GM would tweak Pontiac in such a way that perhaps a smaller percentage of its
      sales went to fleets, I think Pontiac can be profitable.
      3. I see no reason why Pontiac should have to be any more different than Chevy than
      it was when the recession hit.

      I don’t see why it would have been better if Solstice and G8 were Chevys. Also, I don’t
      think Pontiac would threaten Chevy’s mass-market appeal. Chevy has always been #1
      in sales for GM, even during Pontiac’s strongest years. I’m not insisting that Pontiac eclipse Chevy. As a loyal, life-long Pontiac (and therefore, GM) customer, I’m asking only that the brand be brought back. And believe me, I don’t think I’m the only such customer. But for the Great Recession, Pontiac would probably still be around. That recession is over. So should Pontiac’s absence.

    • #38566
      RjION
      Participant

      Pontiac ……….. what is there to talk about, only the past.

    • #38573
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      QUESTION:1. Who will buy Pontiacs? ANSWER: Whoever likes them. Just like any other brand. If you like the looks, features, price, etc. of a car then you will check it out…that’s how it is with all car brands. That is how car brands get new customers, they build good cars. Also, there are a lot of Pontiac fans out there who will be happy the brand is back and will probably jump back to the brand.

      QUESTION 2. Will it be enough for financial sense (profit)? ANSWER: Yes. Pontiac was GM’s third most profitable brand in the States when it was phased out, Pontiac HAS a huge fan base and people know the brand just like they know Chevy. You know how the “new GM” has made Buick, Chevy, GMC and Cadillac the best they have been in years? Well GM would do the same to Pontiac. The new Buicks, Cadillacs and Chevys are some awesome cars, Pontiac would benefit the same way if it were brought back.

      Question 3. How will Pontiac be different than Chevy? ANSWER: Chevy is a mainstream brand that has to build vehicles that appeal to a broad range of people (silverado for hauling, camaro for performance people, traverse for familes, sonic for college kids, etc.) So Chevy has to pay attention to a lot of different people who want different types of vehicles. Pontiac on the other hand will be focused solely on the performance enthusiast. Pontiac will strictly be CARS, no trucks or SUV’s like Chevy. Pontiac will be an affordable performance brand (that also does it’s best at getting the best fuel economy it can) and will bring back the slogan…WE BUILD EXCITEMENT!

    • #38575
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Attaboy, PontiacRulz. YOU tell ’em. If the Pontiac brand were a person, it would have been a victim of wrongful death. Yes, Pontiac was #3 in sales at GM, behind only Chevy and GMC, respectively. It had a large, loyal, passionate following (and I believe it STILL does). And I agree with you that Chevy has to spread itself thin by trying to be all things to all people. Since Pontiac could specialize in sporty/performance vehicles (as it pretty-much had been known for), it has an excellent chance of being viable. Reviving Pontiac could be a good thing not only for us, but for GM as well. I’m asking ALL of Pontiac’s supporters out there: RALLY ‘ROUND PONTIAC! There’s strength in numbers, and we HAVE the numbers. We’re all current or potential GM customers. As such, let’s demand that GM bring Pontiac back!

    • #38576
      RjION
      Participant

      I own a “Pontiac” I own a “Saturn”. Lets see my youngest Daughter has a 2007 Saturn. My oldest Daughter drives a 2009 Saturn. My Son and his wife have a 2009 Saturn and a 2009 Pontiac. No matter, they are not coming back evan if we have a Oldsmobile-Pontiac-Saturn Rally at GM headquarters.

    • #38611
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Well, we didn’t say anything about Olds or Saturn. Olds has been gone for seven years, and Saturn wasn’t as strong a brand as Pontiac, so I agree that those brands aren’t coming back. Pontiac is another matter entirely. I agree that a Pontiac rally at GM HQ won’t necessarily bring the brand back, but it wouldn’t hurt, either. What might stand a better chance of bringing Pontiac back is GM seeing how MANY people want it back. GM is a business, and if the return of Pontiac could mean sufficiently more business for GM–if there’s adequate demand to make the return of Pontiac feasible–I don’t see why Pontiac COULDN’T return. What most of us on this thread (including the originator) are suggesting is that that demand DOES exist, and that the brand SHOULD return.

    • #38612
      Lex
      Participant

      @RjION No rally for Hummer?

    • #38614
      RjION
      Participant

      Well that may be …………….. but it’s not going to happen any time soon, nor do I see anything of the sort happening in my life time. But ……….. Hey if I’m wrong, look me up I’ll admit it.

    • #38617
      RjION
      Participant

      I missed the Hummer ………….

      Hummer-Oldsmobile-Pontiac-Saturn Rally at GM headquarters with SAAB bringing up the rear begging GM to return Pontiac to us. GM calls the cops to have the owners removed … might be the only thing to happen.

    • #38618
      RjION
      Participant

      But wait, there’s more … We can invite owners off all the other discontinued brands to the rally.

      Welch (1903–1911)
      Rainier (1905–1911)
      Welch-Marquette (see Marquette)
      Cartercar (1905–1915)
      Elmore (1909–1912)
      Rapid Truck (1909–1912)
      Reliance Truck (1909–1912)
      Welch-Detroit (1910–1911)
      Marquette (1912)
      Peninsular (1912) (see Marquette)
      Samson Tractor (1917–1922)
      Scripps-Booth (1917–1923)
      Marquette (1930)
      Oakland (1909–1931)
      Viking (1929–1931)
      LaSalle (1927–1940)

      McLaughlin (1918–1942)
      Yellow Coach (1925–1943)
      Sheridan (1921–1922)
      Beaumont (1966–1969)
      Envoy (1960–1970)
      Acadian (1962–1971)
      Ranger (1968–1976)
      Bedford Vehicles (1927–1987)
      General Motors Diesel Division (1938–1987)
      Passport (1988–1991)
      Asüna (1993–1995)
      Geo (1989–1997)
      Daewoo (1982–2011)

    • #38619
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Pontiac “evolved” from Oakland. I don’t think any of the other brands stand any chance of returning. And yes, it would take a few years, perhaps, for Pontiac to ramp-up before any vehicles could actually be sold. We understand that even if GM decided to revive Pontiac today, it can’t suddenly start selling Pontiacs tomorrow. But you have to start SOMEWHERE. The sooner GM makes the decision to revive Pontiac, the sooner new Pontiac vehicles can once again hit the streets. Better late than “never-again.”

    • #38620
      RjION
      Participant

      Yupper …………… Pontiac “evolved” from Oakland. I don’t see GM bringing Pontiac back.

    • #38622
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Well, I think most of us on this thread do. At least, most of us HOPE it’s brought back. Time will tell.

    • #38623
      RjION
      Participant

      Hope is one thing …. want is another …. and will is yet another.

    • #38624
      Lex
      Participant

      What happens if GM would globalize Holden? and we get Holden instead of Pontiac, if have same vehicles as Pontiac did just different name?

    • #38626
      RjION
      Participant

      shoulda, woulda, coulda. I hope GM does something and for me it would be in the compact line. Put what ever name on them you’d like. Buick, Holden, Chevrolet, Vauxhall, Opel, Pontiac. 3000 lb car with 190hp and 180 tq. The Verano almost gets the job done. 3300 lbs and 180hp and what 170 lbs of torque. Give me that power train in the 3100 lb Cruze and we are on the right track.

    • #38628
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Needless to say, I’d like GM to put a PONTIAC nameplate on it. And, given the horsepower and torque figures you state, this would be a sport/performance vehicle. That’s EXACTLY what Pontiac was known for; that was Pontiac’s role as GM’s Excitement division. The fact that you desire such a vehicle shows that there’s still a market for Pontiac. I think we can say–with a reasonable degree of statistical certainty–that there are probably a good number of people desiring such a vehicle.

    • #38634
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Lex What would be the point of globalizing Holden when it makes all of 2.5 unique models? Outside the Caprice, Commodore + Ute, all of its other products are rebadged as Chevrolet everywhere else, including:

      Cruze
      Sonic (Barina Spark)
      Spark
      Malibu
      Colorado
      Trailblazer
      Captiva (will become the next-gen Equinox)


      @Moanalua
      I would disagree that Pontiac was known as the excitement division. All of 2, maybe 3, of its late-model vehicles we’re exciting: GTO, G8, Solstice. The GTO went away, leaving the latter two. I don’t consider the craptastic G3, G5, or even the G6 as exciting. All of these could be bought as Chevys down the street. And the Solstice/Sky deserve to be a Chevy as well. That leaves one potential model — the G8 (and the Ute)… Is that worthy of its own brand?

    • #38642
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Alex, did you read my comment on page 2 answering your questions?

    • #38644
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz I sure did. I even just went back to re-read it.

      What I still don’t understand is twofold:
      1. How will Pontiac be different? You describe it as being the “excitement brand”. How will that look like in actual vehicles? How will that be different from Chevy?
      2. To yours and @moanalua’s points of there being many people who would like to see the return of Pontiac: I don’t think it’s possible to truly quantify how many such people there are. Or if they even bought their current Pontiac because it was a Pontiac… or perhaps it was just the cheapest car they could find, or the only dealerships where they could get decent financing/lease terms.

      In other words, finding out real-world demand is very difficult, if not impossible.

      But forget all that — the most important aspect is product, without which a brand is just a marketing tool. So I return to item #1 above.

    • #38647
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      GM needs to provide legitimacy to all its brands that was not happening for pontiac, let’s wait and see what happens with existing brands

    • #38648
      RjION
      Participant

      Pontiac like Saturn is no longer needed. Buick needs a full line up of cars & Chevy needs a couple cars added to the line up. They need powertrain options

    • #38649
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      Exactly

    • #38651
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      RjIon: Buick doesnt need a full linep of cars, it’s fine with what it’s got…Verano, Regal, Lacrosse and Enclave. Pontiac is no longer needed? Are you nuts? They are needed, they were about affordable performance and had that image. believe me they are needed and GM would to good to have the brand back, especially with college aged folks.

      Alex: Pontiacs will have performance packages and things. They will look sportier and will all have turbos or something.

    • #38653
      RjION
      Participant

      With the addition of the Verano, Buick “MAY” have all thats needed.

      Oakland’s past it’s day, Pontiacs past it’s day.

      10/4 snoman …. rogerdee bandit …. pedal to the metal good buddy, watch out for the plain brown wrappers. we are heading to the dealer to buy a new Chevy and we have a convoy …………………. convoy.

    • #38654
      Lex
      Participant

      What high performance cars did Pontiac had in the last decade of it’s existence? GTO, G8, Solstice, Trans am. I don’t think that our economy is ready for Pontiac, it’ll just drain GM’s money at this point. I say just add more models to Chevy lineup, like 4 door RWD car (Next gen Carpice) then a car like Sky/Solstice and High performance Cruze including 3 and 5 door hatch and coupe.

    • #38656
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Folks, let’s not forget that the originator of this thread is pushing for the RETURN of Pontiac. This thread is about RETURNING Pontiac. I understand that not everyone agrees with that position, and that it’s healthy to have some debate on the topic. However, sometimes I get the impression that some folks have some kind of deep-seated vendetta against Pontiac. I mean, at some point, it gets wearying. On a pro-Pontiac thread like this, I presume you would expect that Pontiac loyalists don’t WANT Buick to have any more models than it has now. That would HURT the chances of Pontiac returning, wouldn’t it? And don’t forget that Buick survived AT THE EXPENSE of Pontiac. I don’t think you’ll find a whole lot of love lost for Buick on a pro-Pontiac thread like this. OAKLAND CERTAINLY is past its day, but folks like the originator of this thread–and myself–believe that PONTIAC STILL has a place. And BELIEVE YOU ME, we two are NOT alone. Not by a LONG shot. Also, just because Pontiac was known as the Excitement division, that doesn’t necessarily mean that EVERY Pontiac model was going to tear-up the asphalt. It meant that Pontiacs were generally sportier than equivalent Chevy or Buick models; that’s all. In the cases of the GTO and the G8, those cars were INDEED performance cars, weren’t they? AGAIN, Pontiac was a strong brand with a large, loyal, passionate following. Also, the Great Recession, which killed Pontiac, is over. It’s been over for more than two years. Therefore, Pontiac loyalists believe that our economy IS ready for Pontiac. Obviously, there would be start-up costs associated with bringing the brand back into production, but that’s true for ANY product. We believe that in the longer term, Pontiac will prove itself viable. With the kind of following it had (and STILL has), I’d say its chances are awfully good.

    • #38657
      RjION
      Participant

      I don’t see any anti Pontiac or anti GM. Sometimes you get the impression that some folks have some kind of deep-seated vendetta against Pontiac you must be seeing that in some other thread on some other forum.

      Back on subject ………. Pontiac is NOT coming back in my lifetime. If I like it or not, or if you like it or not

    • #38659
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I agree with everything you said Moanalua, glad there is another Pontiac supporter on here.

      RjlON: You don’t know that it isn’t coming back. Do you have any idea how much GM still heres about Pontiac? Ever since Pontiac was phased out there has been a TON of backlash from people wanting Pontiac back. GM sees it to…all over their Facebook wall, on comment cards to the company, in letters to the company…they see it and I know the thought of bringing it back crosses their mind all the time. It has to…they never stop hearing about Pontiac.

    • #38660
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      Moanalua, dude Iam pro pontiac but to RjION’s point you can only camp on the subject for so long and at the end of the day the debate is only supported by you and pontiacrulez, thats 2 people its not like there’s hundreds of people posting here proposing the return of pontiac, it is litterally the 2 of you. Let’s cut 2 the Chase what platforms would GM use to build the brand and how many billions of dollars should be spent… Give me some meat and potatoes to your answeres not these whinney milk toast answeres that bring no substance to this thread. We all want a legitimate GM a GM that is sustainable.

    • #38662
      RjION
      Participant

      I drive a Pontiac and it’s not the first Pontiac I have owned. It’s to bad GM had to let Saturn and Pontiac go. Thats the end of it what more can we say. I do not know first hand that Pontiac is gone forever, but I’d place a bet on it. I see no “meat and potato” reason for Saturn or Pontiac…………Again, I’d bet on it.

    • #38663
      Moanalua
      Participant

      No, I am not confusing what some naysayers are posting on other pro-Pontiac threads on other pro-Pontiac message boards. As a matter of fact, there are Pontiac loyalists on those message boards saying precisely the same things I’ve been saying, only much less diplomatically. And please, OBVIOUSLY, PontiacRulz and I are not the only two folks in the country pushing for the return of Pontiac. It’s not like every Pontiac loyalist in the country is posting on THIS thread, on THIS message board. I invite you to Google “Bring Pontiac Back”, and see what you get. That’s how I know about the strength of the movement to bring the brand back. It’s EXACTLY as PontiacRulz put it, three posts before this one. Incidentally, there could be some uncertainty regarding how a pro-Pontiac person should be defined. Perhaps some folks liked the brand, but not to the point that they care whether it returns or not. Then there are folks like PontiacRulz and I, who have a VERY strong affinity for the brand, and who STRONGLY want it to return. As for the “meat and potatoes,” it’s exactly like PontiacRulz said. GM is being BOMBARDED with communication from folks who want the brand back. If there’s STILL any doubt, a market research firm could be retained to determine the true strength of the demand for Pontiac. Perhaps GM might have such a resource in-house. We’re talking solid, orthodox, demand-and-supply. There’s nothing “whiny” or “Milquetoast” there.

    • #38664
      RjION
      Participant

      LIke I said

      I drive a Pontiac and it’s not the first Pontiac I have owned. It’s to bad GM had to let Saturn and Pontiac go. Thats the end of it what more can we say. I do not know first hand that Pontiac is gone forever, but I’d place a bet on it. I see no “meat and potato” reason for Saturn or Pontiac…………Again, I’d bet on it.

    • #38665
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      Ok but can you answere my questions, how many billions again billions would GM have to spend to reboot Pontiac, and what platforms would be used, we can all say we want Pontiac but how would GM do it, how would it be differentiated in marketplace. Again there is no substance to your posts, maybe I will just stop comming and reading the mindless bable on this thread.

    • #38667
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I’m not suggesting they bring Pontiac back immediately, I know it will cost money, but it will pay off when they are selling Pontiacs. Plus, since Pontiac’s were sold at the same delaerships as Buicks and GMC’s, GM wouldnt have to open all new dealerships, they would just have to put Pontiac signs back up at the Buick and GMC dealerships. So that would save a lot of money rather than having to make all new dealerships.

      Pontiac still has a HUGE fan base and just like Moanalua said, I would love to see GM conduct a survey to see how many people want Pontiac back because everyone would see the crazy amount of people who are still talking about Pontiac and want it back. GM already knows how many people want it back though, they never hear the end of it. I dont care what anyone says, Pontiac was GM’s coolest brand, period. GM always talks about how they are trying to appeal to younger people…well they kinda shot themselves in the foot when they got rid of Pontiac, it was the most youthful and exciting brand.

      If it were brought back it would benefit the same way all of GM’s remaning brands have: with great looking and all around great cars. I would love to see what the new Pontiacs would look like, they would be AWESOME! Pontiac would really be the excitement division. Everytime I see these new Buicks, Caddys and Chevs I always think…wow these are great…Pontiac should be enjoying the same fate. They would be sporty, aggresive looking, and great performing cars. I stand my ground when I say GM is missing something in their line up of brands and that is Pontiac….the affordable performance brand.

    • #38668
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      The issue is competition here 30 years ago there was no Hyundai/Kia, many GM buyers have yet again jumped ship to another Asian onslaught. GM could not sustain all of its brands as it lost marketshare to Hyundai and a growing Nissan ect. Horrible marketing decisions plagued Pontiac and Saturn, while the legions of dislusioned GM owners jumped ship… At the end of the day GM cannot sustain more than 4 brands with the required turnaround for new product ect. Wow look a substantive post with meat to it, come on stop the weak posts and bring the meat… give me something worth reading.

    • #38669
      Moanalua
      Participant

      PontiacRulz, good for you! CONTINUE standing your ground, and I’ll stand with you. Pontiac’s murder may have created a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. Many Pontiac customers may have moved to Asian brands BECAUSE of–and as a RESULT of–anger and outrage towards GM for killing Pontiac. I’ve read posts on other Pontiac threads by former Pontiac customers who did PRECISELY THAT. You don’t GAIN market share by killing one of your brands. Disillusioned GM owners? Perhaps many of them jumped ship AFTER–and as a RESULT of–the murder of such brands as Pontiac. If the demand is there, I see no reason why GM can’t sustain five brands. If not, drop Buick. The four-brand lineup should be Chevy/GMC/Pontiac/Cadillac. If there’s adequate demand to keep Buick also, then by all means do so. Also, I think there’s a chance that former Pontiac customers who have defected to non-GM brands, might be won BACK, if GM revives Pontiac.

    • #38670
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Guys, let me briefly summarize what’s going on here.

      Pro-Pontiackers: bring it back, there is plenty of demand, the brand is loved!
      Anti-Pontiackers: how would Pontiac be any different from Chevy, is there a business case for it?

      Unfortunately, I’m in the Anti-Pontiac camp for the time being. I have yet to see or understand what value Pontiac would bring to the automotive world, the consumer, or GM, besides a legendary brand.

      Can we talk actual vehicles here, rather than feelings and history? The latter two usually don’t get much accomplished.

    • #38671
      RjION
      Participant

      I’m not anti Pontiac ……….. I’m pro Reality. The reality of it is Pontiac itsn’t coming back in my lifetime.

    • #38672
      Rob
      Participant

      I don’t miss Pontiac. Towards the end, there was only an anemic shadow of the brands performance roots, and the principle business was mediocre cars like the G6. The G8 was an awesome performer, but the exterior was too similar to the rest of the line. Unless you were an auto enthusiast, the incredible GTO or G8 could have been a GP.

    • #38673
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      To the automotive world Pontiac would be a performance brand and more specifically American muscle… mean c’mon how many brands are all about muscle these days? Dodge maybe but that’s it. Pontiac would be something different, catering to people who like performance. People would know Pontiac as performance and muslce, when you buy a Pontiac you know that’s what the brand image is and what your getting. I’ve already said all this before but I guess none of ya’ll “anti-Pontiackers” are listening or you just have some kind of dislike for Pontiac. To GM they would be selling an affordable performance brand that people already like and would even rival BMW, like the G8 did, at an affordable price.

    • #38674
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      The exodus to Asian brands was happening way before the death of pontiac

    • #38675
      Moanalua
      Participant

      But the murder of Pontiac ACCELERATED it. PontiacRulz, I think you have it right. There are folks who don’t want to see Pontiac return, and I guess that’s reasonable enough: It’s a big world, with a lot of different kinds of folks. As much as you and I cherish the brand, we can’t expect everyone to feel the same way. Let’s keep standing our ground for Pontiac, though. Keep your eyes on the prize.

    • #38676
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Yea well since this is a GM site I figured there would be more Pontiac fans on here but I guess not. I haven’t forgot about the brand and I never will. I drive mine everyday and I have PONTIAC written across the windshield for everyone to see. I grew up around nothing but Pontiacs and I know that’s a big part of why I like them so much. Pontiac was done wrong with all the rebading and definetly was raped of it’s identity. It should be brought back and given the attention it deserved/ deserves. It has loads of potential.

    • #38677
      TobyHanson
      Participant

      I would love to see a return of Pontiac, if only for sentimental reasons. I think there is a case to be made, however, for a value-priced performance brand. Remember what Pontiac was in the ’60s? Me neither. I’m not that old. But what I do know is that there are young people who buy Scions, Mazdas, Nissans, etc. who want small, sporty performance cars. If Pontiac could credibly serve that buyer they could be very successful. Award dealerships to high-performing Chevy dealers and it could be like the Fiat Boutiques at selected Chrysler dealers.

      To that end, I think Pontiac would need a sporty version of the Chevy Sonic, Cruze, a Cruze hatchback variant, a small wagon (another Vibe?) and perhaps a mid-size sport sedan. That should be enough to get the buyers back into the market for Pontiacs. I’ll even go so far as to suggest names for the model line-up: Zip, Glide, Glide Sport, Vibe and Grand Prix.

    • #38678
      Moanalua
      Participant

      TobyHanson, thank you for joining this thread. The more pro-Pontiac folks on it, the better. Heck, this thread BEGAN as a pro-Pontiac thread. Well, I AM old enough to remember Pontiac in the ’60s. My first car was a ’66 Le Mans (with the 326 V8), and then I had a ’67 GTO after that. But I like your ideas about what a new, revived Pontiac brand should be like. Frankly, I don’t care HOW Pontiac looks when it returns, as long as it DOES return. After all, the Pontiac nameplate ALONE will always call to mind the brand’s great musclecars of the past (well, that Le Mans didn’t qualify as a musclecar, but the GTO did), for older Pontiac loyalists like me. We can like Pontiac for different reasons, but since we all support the brand, it’s all good. I mean, a Pontiac is a Pontiac. The brand itself, brings us together. By the way: I, too, still drive a Pontiac.

    • #38685
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      Pontiac dumped – Buick saved ??!!

      Take a look at your typical Buick driver – that sector of market will be gone in 10 years or so !

      Look at the Buick symbol – three shields – a sit back defensive posture.

      Look at the Pontiac symbol – an arrowhead – always moving forward.

      The Vibe was unique, the G8 was unique, the Gran Prix was unique – and the Firebird was ready to be made unique.

      Why not get financial commitments from all the Pontiac enthusiasts out there to buy one from their first return run ??

      Chevy runs deep – Pontiac runs deeper !!!

    • #38687
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @gcmeninsr That’s one way of looking at it.

      Another is that the Buick buyer is rapidly changing, with the brand being the fastest-growing premium/luxury brand in the world. Would you say that the typical Lexus buyer would be “gone in 10 years or so”? Absolutely not. Neither will it be for Buick given the recent resurgence in product and attention.

      And which brand makes up for higher profit margins — Buick or Pontiac? GM is a business; and Pontiac simply didn’t present an attractive business case. Similar to how one can’t buy a 500-horsepower supercar for $10,000 because there isn’t a business case to be made there.

      The Vibe was a Corolla hatch (ahem Matrix) — not something to be proud of, especially for Pontiac enthusiasts. The Gran Prix and Firebird were — that’s it, they just were — and then went away. Nothing you couldn’t have gotten in a Chevy (Impala or Monte Carlo).

      So my question still remains: how would the resurrected Pontiac be different from Chevys? Not the brand, but the actual vehicles?

      I’m not negative — I just want to understand how/where Pontiac would fit in today’s über-competitive market place.

    • #38690
      RjION
      Participant

      I think they should get rid of Buick, and bring back Oldsmobile.

    • #38691
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @RJlON You’re kiddin, right? :))

    • #38694
      RjION
      Participant

      alex: thats my new campaign, I may evan start a website. :)]

    • #38697
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      How about we go halfsies on the site? OldsmobileFTW.com? :-))

    • #38698
      RjION
      Participant

      Deal ………… now we need to come up with line up. The New Oldsmobile has to be everything Buick is, Everything Pontiac, Saturn and Olds was.

      So the 2 seat roadster should be named Starfire

    • #38699
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      @Alex: Dude I’ve already told you a few times how Pontiac cars will be different but you keep asking so I’ll tell you again: Pontiac’s will be faster. They will be faster, standard and the more you move up trim levels the faster they will be. I mean think of a performance brand and what that means….that’s what Pontiac could be…an all RWD lineup would be ideal. Also, The Grand Prix was way cooler and better looking than the Impala. And the Firebird was always better than the Camaro. Ask a dude my age (19 years old) which GM brand is the coolest and he will say Pontiac. I ask all my friends and that’s what they say. Pontiac meant something to a lot of people and had an image to it whether you want to admit it or not. I’d rather have that arrow head on my car than that bow tie anyday.

    • #38700
      RjION
      Participant

      2 seat Roaster: Star Fire
      Sport Compact: JetFire

    • #38702
      Moanalua
      Participant

      PontiacRulz, I agree with you 100%. I think it’s neat that Pontiac is treasured by so many young folks. I myself am 52, but I treasure the brand, too. This shows us that Pontiac has brand-appeal across a wide range of ages, which enhances its viability. Take note, GM. As for Olds, I DO respect it, but I suspect that GM would sooner revive Pontiac than it would Olds. Therefore, that two-seat roadster and sport compact would probably be built by Pontiac.

      Two-seat roadster: Fiero
      Sport compact: Sunfire

    • #38703
      RjION
      Participant

      2 seat Roaster: StarFire
      Sport Compact: JetFire
      Sport Mid Size: RocketFire

    • #38705
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz The fact that they will be faster isn’t saying much, if anything.

      My question is more specific: how will they be faster? Will they have different powertrains? Will they weigh less?

      You need to consider the fact that any modifications you make to a vehicle outside top-hat sheet metal (which is cheap) is a significant additional expense that makes the business case for a low-volume, low-profit brand like Pontiac worse.

      Have you drive a Cruze? How about the Sonic or the new Malibu? Here’s our first drive of the latter:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/12/2013-chevrolet-malibu-eco-the-first-drive/

      If you haven’t, you should. But my point is that all of the new Chevys not only look great and appeal to a much younger audience from a styling perspective, they also handle at the top (if not the best) in their class. All they need is more powerful engine options (for those who care and will pay extra for them) and you have your Pontiac revival.

      “Ask a dude my age (19 years old) which GM brand is the coolest and he will say Pontiac. I ask all my friends and that’s what they say.”

      That’s a man-says example if I’ve ever seen one and is totally irrelevant, if not fictitious. If we’re going to have an educated and constructive discussion about something as significant as bringing back a brand, we need real numbers from surveys, consumer studies, and customer voice prelims, among other opinion research tools. Let’s not even go there.

    • #38706
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Let me get back to you on that Alex, I will go there and I can dang sure find you some evidence that people want Pontiac back and never wanted it to go away. You think just because it was phased out that people magically don’t care about it anymore? Wrong. Chevy’s doing a ot better, I agree with you on that but Pontiac is still way cooler and always has been one up on Chevy as far as being cool. You can say whatever you want but I am 19 years old and I know what people my age think about cars. Most people my age dont even like American brands (sadly) but if they were going to consider an American brand, Pontiac would have been at the top of their short list.
      arrow head>bow tie PONTIAC WILL ALWAYS BE THE COOLEST GM BRAND!

    • #38709
      RjION
      Participant

      2 seat Roaster: StarFire
      Sport Compact: JetFire
      Sport Mid Size: RocketFire

      Cruiser
      Star Cruiser
      Super Cruiser

    • #38710
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Seeing as this thread began as a pro-Pontiac thread: Those of you who insist that hard figures be shown as to the demand for Pontiac, let me turn that on its head. Why don’t YOU show us hard figures that show there is INADEQUATE demand for Pontiac? I think that would make more sense on a pro-Pontiac thread. PROVE that this pro-Pontiac thread is all wet, as that’s what you seem to be implying.

    • #38711
      Lex
      Participant

      @ Pontiac Fans
      Lets say Ford decides to purchase Pontiac rights and goes ahead and start producing Pontiacs the way you want to see them, how would you react to that?

    • #38712
      RjION
      Participant

      I have yet to see anyone say they didn’t want Pontiac to come back. I myself would love to see it, but it’s not going to happen in my lifetime …. Like it or not. So with that said what models do you think Oldsmobile should come out with when GM shuts down Buick and brings Olds back.

    • #38713
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Lex: I’m certain that GM would never sell Pontiac to Ford.

      @RjION
      : What makes you think GM will revive Olds rather than Pontiac?

    • #38714
      RjION
      Participant

      Moanalua …………… Oldsmobile is just as unlikely as Pontiac. I didn’t think anyone would need an explanation.

      PS: Alex the site sure has been loading slowly. Any upgrades in the future?

    • #38715
      Moanalua
      Participant

      But you said, “So with that said what models do you think Oldsmobile should come out with WHEN GM shuts down Buick AND BRINGS OLDS BACK.” (Emphases mine). You sound certain that Olds WILL be back.

    • #38716
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @RJION Is it still loading slowly? Shouldn’t be… PM me if it is 🙂

      Re Olds: no way that brand is coming back. Ever.

    • #38717
      Moanalua
      Participant

      That’s what I was thinking. The only brand that has a chance is Pontiac.

    • #38718
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Yea I think we can all agree that Oldsmobile isn’t coming back. If anything is coming back it will be Pontiac. Olds was a good car though and it has good history, it was the first American car brand and second oldest car brand in the world. They were great cars for sure and nobody can talk bad about the brand, period.

      But PONTIAC WILL BE BACK! and they will be some awesome performance cars! Pontiac will once again live up to it’s famous slogans “FUEL FOR THE SOUL” and “DRIVING EXCITEMEMT!”

    • #38720
      Moanalua
      Participant

      I agree completely. Let “PONTIAC WILL BE BACK!” be our battle cry. This is a call to arms, to all Pontiac loyalists out there: We need to convince GM to bring the brand back! Make your voices heard!

    • #38721
      RjION
      Participant

      Bringing OLDS back is a “joke”.

    • #38736
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I heard that GM didn’t even want to get rid of Pontiac but the government made them during the bailout. GM wanted to have 5 brands (Chevrolet, Pontiac, GMC, Buick and Cadillac) but the govt said nope, you can only have 4 so they had to cut Pontiac. Bring Pontiac back GM!

    • #38737
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Once the government is completly out of the company, they can bring back Pontiac. Whoop whoop!

    • #38740
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      “The government” has actually been helping GM make the right decisions, negotiate better terms with suppliers & the UAW, and even incorporate the right organizational structure that calls for more direct responsibility.

      That “more direct responsibility” piece will mean that whoever decides to bring Pontiac back will put their job on the line for that decision. I still don’t think — at the volume that Pontiac has been selling before the carpocalypse of 2009 — there’s a business case for the reintroduction of the brand. Unless GM plans on charging $30,000 and up for each vehicle…

    • #38742
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      But Pontiac sells! It’s not like Oldsmobile, which was gotten rid of because it wasnt selling even when they overhauled the Olds lineup. Pontiac sells and I can only imagine how good it would do if GM really made a sweet a** lineup starting with a car like the G8 and a car like the Solstice. Pontiac is freaking awesome dude and it beats all the foreign brands that try to be cool. Bring back the excitement brand!

    • #38743
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      So we have a G8-like vehicle… and a Solstice-like vehicle. What else?

    • #38744
      RjION
      Participant

      Put it to rest ……………………

    • #38745
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      If you are just going to make fun of what I say or say stupid stuff like “put it to rest…..” then the heck with you. I don’t respond to comments from immature people who obviously arent even attempting to see my side of the argument and arent going to no matter what I say.

    • #38746
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      What I am looking for like Alex is a legitimate answer and business model for the resurgence of Pontiac, truthfully if I was to bring back Pontiac I would have 2 vehicles to start with a G6 replacement based on the regal platform with a new modern product and brand theme that screamed modern yet harkened back to subtle retro themes. Then I would have an awesome sports car coupe that redefined the segment (not a pony car). The following year I would reintroduce the Kappa like roadster as well as a flagship sedan. All of these would be V6’s, only one engine type no need for all these different engines all would be designed for performance. Oh look I just created a business plan, unlike all the unbelievably rediculous Pontiac fan boys in this thread. Come on fan boys step it up or stop posting, give me something legitimate to read rather than all the worthless whinnying, “I want Pontiac back whaaa”. I want it back too and would be the first in line to buy one, but the business case is not there, design alone does not sell cars…

    • #38747
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Well said, @yabadabadoo. My only concern with something like that is that Chevy will suffer compared to brands like Ford, Hyundai, and Toyota.

      For instance, the Hyundai Genesis Coupe is similar — if I’m understanding correctly — to the proposed sports car/coupe from Pontiac; it’s not a pony car — it’s in a totally different class. So is the Toyota FT86. Making such a vehicle a Pontiac limits the brand’s family “depth”. In other words, people walk into a Hyundai store to look at the Genesis Coupe. The husband gets the Genesis Coupe while the wife would like to test drive the Tucson; Hyundai sells two vehicles to the same family.

      Now, Pontiac could be sold in Buick/GMC stores to encourage family depth/shopping, but I see several problems with that as well:
      1. Buick/GMC are moving way, way, way upmarket to add a “mainstream” brand like Pontiac; especially the dealers.
      2. Brand identity suffers. Whereas in the Hyundai scenario the people bought two Hyundais, here the family may get a Pontiac sports coupe and a GMC Terrain. Ultimately, they’re not buying another Pontiac, but they are buying another GM. Sure, it benefits GM at the end of the day; but it doesn’t fit GM’s strategy of each brand being able to stand on its own.

      Another point: the sale of the Pontiac-unique vehicles counts as Pontiac sales, which could hurt Chevy in the marketing department. For example, Ford can claim that the F-150 is the best-selling truck in America, which it is. But in some years, the combination of Silverado and Sierra has outsold the F-150. This isn’t very important, but it’s something that will be discussed within GM if Pontiac ever does come up on their radar; currently, it’s not.

    • #38748
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      Alex; well spoken love the depth of discussion you provide in all your posts. You are absolutely right in everything you have said, Hyundai has had u huge impact on the market and I don’t see them letting up they have become a well tuned operation that has taken the original Japanes model and made it their own. As for GM and Pontiac you are right that Pontiac would disrupt the present strategy of building the existing brands. I believe GM would have to market pontiacs completely differently, the problem there is who buys pontiacs only men; because their to focused on performance, that doesn’t work.

    • #38749
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Agreed. Before the bankruptcy and discontinuation of Pontiac, many bought Pontiacs because they were — very often — the least expensive vehicle on the market (G3, G5, G6, Torrent). So at that point, it’s possible that the sex distribution (male/female) was even for the brand as a whole.

      If GM were to make a real performance brand out of Pontiac though, one without such atrocities as the G3, G5, Torrent, or Azteck, then I’d wager more men would buy the vehicles.

      Interestingly, the current sex demo split of the 5th gen Camaro is 60% male and 40% female… girls like the Camaro’s looks and most couldn’t care less about its performance. So if the Pontiac models look “sexy” (in girl speak), then it’s possible that many girls will buy them, as well.

    • #38750
      5GMs
      Participant

      More than any other G.M. brand, Pontiac stood for performance, speed and sex appeal. In its best years, Pontiacs were highly styled, valued and really something! Pontiac even got a lift in the 1950s when G.M. used its cars on the racing circuit. Because of its “wide track” stance, Pontiacs quickly caught on with street racers, as well. In short… “Pontiac is style. Pontiac is performance. Pontiac is culture. Pontiac is music. Pontiac is CAR.” The true developers of “We Build Excitement!”
      I took a lot of the above paragraph from an article entitled “Its Muscle Car Glory Faded, Pontiac Shrivels Up” Published: February 19, 2009 by Micheline Maynard. A lot of great points are made but probably the best being that of GM dooming Pontiac in the 80’s by basically making 1 car with 4 name plates and comprimising quality.
      If Pontiac were to return it would almost certainly have to fill a niche market. Perhaps a retro Firebird and/or GTO as the Camaro’s have been modified by aftermarket facilities. The Solctice or a Fiero based upon it. A 4 door family car with muscles to flex like the G8. A division that would not directly compete umongst its GM brethern but bolster sales from those who might not want a Buick or were thinking of defecting to Ford.
      I’m sure it’s all wishful thinking but I feel like I have nowhere to go to for a new car that fits my style and taste. Maybe a new Chevy will come along, doubtful Buick will do it and I’m not an import guy. I guess for now I will stick with what I have and then look to the used car market when it’s time.

    • #38751
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @5GMs Nice post and welcome to GM Authority!

      I think the brand that Pontiac should “aim” to be is what Dodge is… and where Dodge is headed. Once they get rid of the silly Caravan, they’ll have one heck of a performance lineup:

      Dart (based on Alfa Romeo Giulietta)
      Avenger (will be replaced by Alfa-based model as well)
      Journey

      Charger
      Challenger
      Durango

      The three last ones are RWD. Enough said there.
      The Dart and — once redesigned — the Avenger and Journey, will be very capable vehicles with amazing handling.

      I think a few months ago, Dodge experimented with the “Adrenaline unleashed” slogan (or something of the sort). That’s the direction Pontiac should be headed in.

      Buick is going after Lexus, so no use of even trying to remotely fit a true Pontiac buyer into one of those… unless they’re looking for luxury.

    • #38752
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Like your post, Alex. As a Pontiac loyalist, I wouldn’t mind at all if a revived Pontiac brand would target Dodge. And as Buick is going after Lexus, a revived Pontiac should go after BMW. That’s what Pontiac had been doing since as early as 1973.

    • #38753
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua The revived “new” Cadillac is going after BMW like nobody’s business. That’s GM’s internal goal, with non-performance vehicles like the XTS meant as stop gaps to transition the DTS crowd to the new performance-luxury-oriented Cadillac.

      Besides, Pontiac would never be able to do what BMW does — from the perspective of “the whole package.” Maybe Pontiac could keep up with BMW on performance… but not on the luxury, quality, ownership experience, or technology fronts.

      Pontiac should go after the niche that is the mainstream-budgeted performance consumer. If it does so with the right product, it will be successful.

    • #38754
      Moanalua
      Participant

      That would be fine, too. Frankly, I don’t really care HOW Pontiac returns, as long as it DOES return. And I hope someone from GM’s front office takes note of your last paragraph.

    • #38755
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Welcome to the discussion 5GMs, great post. Pontiac is all about what Alex said, mainstream budgeted performance….and heck with cars like the G8, Pontiac even has the potential to snag some sales from BMW. Cars like the G8 and Solstice were a huge step in the right direction for Pontiac. I think the topic of it’s return is becoming a lot more popular on the internet and in general. I really hope that GM is getting the message.

    • #38757
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Yes. As I had mentioned in an earlier post, Pontiac had targeted BMW as early as 1973. And again, the G8 WAS Pontiac’s BMW-fighter. alex said Cadilllac was going after BMW, but I think Cadillac should go after Mercedes instead. Them GM should revive Pontiac and let Pontiac go after BMW once again. Folks have been clamoring for Pontiac’s return ever since GM killed it. It’s ALL OVER the internet.

    • #38758
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Guys, the G8 was the poor man’s BMW. It was not a BMW competitor. It was the BMW for those who couldn’t afford one.

      BMW, MB, Audi, Infiniti are in the same class of luxury vehicles. They make performance-oriented luxury. Lexus and Lincoln make comfortable luxury. There are tons of research by the likes of Wards, KBB, and private research firms that support this through and through.

      Proposing Pontiac try and compete with BMW is like proposing that Dodge compete with BMW. You’re talking about two utterly different buyers, tastes, demographics, values, and customer profiles.

      If we’re going to talk about Pontiac’s return, let’s talk realistically. No BMW customer is going to even think about looking at a Pontiac. There are a myriad of brand, loyalty, and historic factors at play here that are way beyond GM’s (or any automaker’s or marketer’s) reach. So, Buick is for going after Lexus (comfortable luxury). Cadillac is for going after BMW (performance luxury). Chevy is mainstream. Pontiac is performance for the mainstream.

    • #38759
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Well, yes: The G8 was indeed the poor man’s BMW. Nothing wrong with that. It served customers who couldn’t afford a BMW. Those count as sales for Pontiac. That’s the main thing: Sell cars. Yes, no one who can AFFORD a BMW would look at Pontiac. But those who CAN’T afford a BMW certainly might look at Pontiac. Having said that, I’m still totally OK with Pontiac being “performance for the mainstream,” as you say. Again, GM can configure Pontiac in any way that it wants, as long as it brings the brand back.

    • #38760
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Agreed. A Pontiac sale is a Pontiac sale, but it’s also not a loss for BMW, because that customer was never a potential in the first place.

      I just want to be clear about the term/concept of competition 😀

    • #38762
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      So what do you think Alex? Are you starting to come around the the idea of Pontiac coming back? 😛 I really think GM would do well with the brand coming back and that it’s identity as an affordable performance brand would do well. Moanalua you are right, there is a LOT of stuff on the internet about Pontiac coming back and I know GM sees it.

    • #38763
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz Only if it’s done right. We can’t have models like the Torrent, G3, G5, or even the G6. There was nothing cool, exciting, or passionate about those vehicles.

      If Pontiac is to make a return, it needs to be done with the right product, executed to the T.

    • #38764
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I agree 100% Alex. Question now is, how do we the fans get GM to bring it back? I know the decesion is ultimately up to GM but we the fans need to do as much as we can to show GM the demand for the brands return and how it’s return would be a good idea. I’m on Facebook all the time doing that very thing haha. But Facebook isn’t enough. If something is to get done we have to do more.

    • #38767
      Moanalua
      Participant

      You know what, PontiacRulz? I think good Pontiac loyalists like you need to keep-on doing what you’re doing. Folks like you need to keep-on generating threads like this. We need to burn-up the internet with pro-Pontiac threads like this. This movement needs to get bigger and bigger; snowball. At some point, GM is going to have to get off its duff and DO something. The longer GM takes, more Pontiacs will eventually get into accidents or break down, and the owners will start to look for another vehicle. There’s a good chance they’ll purchase a new vehicle from a NON-GM manufacturer, not wanting to reward the company that killed their favorite brand. GM has ALREADY lost about 45% of Pontiac’s customers. If there’s adequate demand for Pontiac, how much longer is GM, as a business, going to turn its back on it?

    • #38773
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Idk that’s a good question though Moanalua. There is a HUGE demand for Pontiac, I could get a petition going here on the internet and have probably 10,000 signatures in a couple months. Fact is Pontiac is wanted and people never wanted it to go away. It WAS selling. I mean….I was out driving today and everywhere I went I saw a crap load of Pontiacs, they are everywhere. GM needs to bring it back, it was only gotten rid of because of the the bankruptcy and stuff. When GM is all the way back on their feet there is no question if it should be brought back. With the kind of cars GM is making today, Pontiacs would be BAD ASS!

    • #38779
      Daren
      Participant

      Heres what they need to do. They need to bring back pontiac and only there performance side. They need to compete and win against the mustangs and the comaros. If they came out with a firebird & the GTO that Had that muscle look and feel like the second generations did. They would hit a home run. So many people say the same thing and i think somany people would buy these cars if pontiac came out. Just to compete with the comaros and mustangs again.

    • #38782
      Moanalua
      Participant

      OK, folks: I’m a musclecar guy myself. Eight of the nine Pontiacs I’ve owned, have been musclecars (including the one I own now). However, I think we’d better let GM decide how Pontiac is going to return. It’s so difficult to get an automaker to bring a brand back; I think we should be thrilled if Pontiac returns at all. I suggest we focus on getting GM to REVIVE Pontiac, but not try to tell GM what Pontiac should be like. I think GM would appreciate that. ANY Pontiac is better than no Pontiac at all, half a loaf is better than none, etc.

    • #38783
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I agree, let’s just focus our efforts into getting GM to bring back Pontiac. GM can decide exactly what they want to do performance wise with Pontiac (what type of engine to put in them, etc.). We need to just focus on getting it back period. There is a website called http://www.bringpontiacback.org that is planning a business case to submit to GM about bringing back Pontiac. Check out the site. Don’t give up Pontiac fans! We can do this! Pontiac rules!

    • #38784
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz Wait a sec, a non-informed third party is planning to write a business case for GM? Sorry man, but that’s just laughable.

      For starters, they won’t be able to compile enough information to even begin drafting the financials, let alone figure out how much to allocate to various activities (such as R&D, manufacturing, design, development, etc.).

    • #38787
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Idk Alex but it’s hope. That’s all we have. Pontiac supporters will just have to keep showing GM how much we want our brand back and hope they bring it back sooner or later. It has an identity of performance-driven exciting sporty cars. GM could do a lot with Pontiac’s image and the demand is there. Hope a light bulb goes off in their head to bring it back.

    • #38797
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Daren So by releasing a Firebird, GM would, effectively, compete with its own Camaro? The Camaro already does a fine job competing with the Mustang, outselling the Ford at an almost 3:1 ratio.

    • #38798
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      You have your Chevy people and you have your Pontiac people. Obviously Pontiac fans would buy the bird and Chev fans would buy the Camaro. Unless ,for example, a chev guy likes the looks of the firebird better then he would buy a firebird. Either way it’s a sale for GM and by having a Firbird and Camaro they increase their chance of a purchase. As far as how different the Camaro and Firebird look from one another…well thats would be up to GM but I’d hope they look very different from eachother.

    • #38810
      Brian_E
      Participant

      Being a lifelong Pontiac fan, I’d love to see Pontiac back within the GM fold, but I am also aware of the many differences between the past and present that make it a difficult proposition. I’ve seen the basic economics and also have listened to passionate people like Jim Wangers describe the long and slow death of a great car. Here are my thoughts with some historical context added.
      We all know the original hierarchy of the classic GM line-up: Chevy < Pontiac < Olds < Buick < Cadillac. This was a great business model in the sixties before the Japanese auto invasion. As a result of that foreign competition, GM has had to remain competitive. This required increasing the content and quality of its base car – Chevrolet. If you could buy a Honda or Toyota with the quality of a Buick but the cost of a Chevrolet (as you could in the 80’s), the choice was fairly simple. By GM narrowing the gap between Chevy and Cadillac largely through badge engineering, the BOP got squeezed with the resulting casualties. The most likely reason that Buick survived is the profit margin that can be commanded. Sure Pontiac sold many more cars than Buick, but the profit margins were much slimmer. To the general public, Pontiac is/was just a step above Chevy, whereas Buick is ‘just’ a step below Cadillac. If you could spent $20k to build a car sold for $23k, or spend $24k to build a car sold for $35k, which would you choose? (figures are for illustration, and are my best guess.)
      Pontiac couldn’t ask a financially solvent profit margin, because it didn’t have the right image. Trying to recreate that prestigious image Pontiac enjoyed in the 60’s would require a massive undertaking. Back then, they had Bunkie Knudsen, Pete Estes, John DeLorean, and ad/marketing guru Jim Wangers. All were passionate car guys that had a finger on the pulse of the youth market. The youth market is vastly different nowadays, and Chevy is leading the charge for GM in tapping into that demographic. There is no way they are going to bring Pontiac back to compete with Chevy for that market. Even the Pontiac of the glory days had to sneak things in as it was to be successful. The famous GTO was flown in under the radar as a mere option package – albeit a clever one.
      Additionally, to create a full car line of performance cars is not feasible in this economic climate. Standards of performance have also risen in the past 40 years. To make Pontiac a performance leader would be cost prohibitive and also would be at the expense of the other GM brands. It just doesn’t make sense to resurrect a brand to offer a higher level of performance that could be offered in the existing brands more efficiently.

      All that said, If GM were to offer a Pontiac, it would likely need to be offered not as a make, but as a separate model (probably under the Chevy banner). It would need to reach out to an in-demand youth demographic that doesn’t conflict/compete with other GM offerings. And most importantly, the public demand HAS to be there, and GM needs to see more than just petitions and facebook comments.
      I’d love to see Pontiac come back, but only in a way that honors the legacy and pays proper tribute to its performance heritage.

    • #38812
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Brian_E I think you’ve offered a realistic and unbiased analysis of the matter. I especially appreciate the part where you compare the content of Japanese vehicles to that of Chevy, which was a bargain-basement brand 10-20 years ago. This is exactly the reason for the colossal market shift in the industry over the last 2-3 decades that has resulted in the discontinuation of Pontiac and Olds. The fact that Lexus offers a vastly different luxury experience than BMW, Audi, and MB is the sole reason for Buick’s continued existence.

      As for performance from GM as it related to Pontiac, Chevy is all over that market, as evidenced by today’s unveilings:

      Concept CODE 130R
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/naias-2012-eassist-powered-chevrolet-code-130r-suggests-efficient-rwd-performance/

      Concept CODE 140S
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/naias-2012-chevrolet-tru-140s-concept-is-really-just-a-sexy-cruze-coupe/

    • #38813
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I agree Brian_E, they would have to come back as true performance cars for an affordable price. I also understand that GM is going to need more than Facebook comments and petitions in order for them to think about Pontiac again. What do you recommend as a way to show GM the demand?

    • #38814
      Brian_E
      Participant

      About the only way I could think of would be for fans to put their money where their mouth is. Money talks.

      If GM could be convinced to offer sometype of pledge campaign, that would be a way in the very least to GM to gauge public interest.
      Check out the kickstarter website.
      http://www.kickstarter.com/

      There, people/small businesses/artists offer incentives on a future product in return for some up front funding.
      GM could offer a similar approach. Pontiac fans and followers could pledge a certain amount toward the creation of a Pontiac vehicle. If the threshold amount set by GM is reached, they would create and offer the car. The pledges would be collected only if the target amount set by GM is reached. Those that ‘donated’, would receive a corresponding discount off the price of the car. That’s one possibility, and could also help Pontiac fans to understand what is needed to relaunch their favorite car.
      GM could offer individual campaigns (one for a solstice type, one for a G8 type, a GTO, Firebird, etc.) Even with this suggestion, It’s still up to GM, but it’s a way for them to see a truer sense of the demand, while still having relatively little skin in the game.

    • #38819
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Fair enough. PontiacRulz mentioned the website/organization, “Bring Pontiac Back.org”. I’ve posted on that website. About a year or two ago, I posted that I had a friend who questioned whether we Pontiac loyalists would commit to purchasing a new Pontiac, if GM demanded THAT as a precondition to its returning the brand. And I posted that I would strongly consider it. As I mentioned in a couple of posts on THIS thread, I’m a musclecar guy. I might add that I prefer Pontiac’s older musclecars. Yet I would consider committing to purchasing a NEW Pontiac, if GM were to demand THAT of a certain number of Pontiac loyalists as a precondition to bringing the brand back.

      Furthermore, I would beg to differ with the notion that somehow we Pontiac loyalists are perhaps underestimating how difficult it would be for GM to revive the brand. What I have to say to that is: Hey, WE weren’t the ones who killed the brand. Many Pontiac loyalists like me have been purchasing ONLY Pontiacs all their lives. I would think that GM owes people like US a debt of gratitude. We’ve been loyal customers. I almost think that GM owes it to Pontiac’s legions of loyalists to bring the brand back. We’ve stood with that GM brand for decades. Obviously, GM doesn’t have a legal obligation to do that, but it would be great PR and damage-control. GM generated a TREMENDOUS amount of ill will by killing Pontiac.

      1. Pontiac was NUMBER THREE in sales at GM, right behind Chevy and GMC.
      2. Not only was Pontiac ahead of #4 Buick; it was outselling Buick TWO-TO-ONE. I
      mean, it wasn’t even CLOSE.
      3. Pontiac was a strong, iconic, legacy brand.
      4. Pontiac had (and continues to have) a large, loyal following.
      5. The Great Recession, which ultimately caused GM to kill Pontiac, is over. It’s been over for what, almost three years?
      6. Last year GM passed Toyota to regain its position as the world’s #1 automaker. Therefore, GM is healthy again. GM can no longer say that it’s too “weak” to consider reviving Pontiac.

      So: Perhaps it WOULD be difficult for GM to revive Pontiac. However, given all that I’ve mentioned in this post, IT’S STILL THE THING TO DO. Not only that; as PontiacRulz mentioned earlier, the brand would surely sell. Also, GM doesn’t have to re-invent the wheel. Just as before, Pontiac can share the same engines and platforms as other GM brands. We’re trying to get GM to revive a BRAND, not create a new COMPANY featuring Pontiac as a TOTALLY different vehicle from the ground up. THAT wouldn’t be feasible, and that’s not what we’re asking. The Pontiac brand could be plugged right back in with GMC and Buick. GM wouldn’t even have to create new dealerships. Finally, we’re saying that Pontiac still has adequate demand to make it viable, and in Canada as well. (In fact, ESPECIALLY in Canada).

    • #38820
      Brian_E
      Participant

      Moanalua:

      Believe it or not, I feel your pain. My first car was a 1972 GP that I still own along with a 2001 GP that is my daily driver. I inherited this love from my father who grew up in early 60’s Pontiacs and himself drove a ’57 Chieftain in high-school. He currently has a 1972 Firebird Formula. My younger brothers’ first car was a 1975 T/A that we still have. To this day, my father and I go to Pontiac car shows and are thrilled to be involved with the hobby. I’m glad to hear that you would consider a commitment to a new Pontiac. I am not in a financial situation to do that. I suspect you are in the minority, though. Based on the current status of Bringbackpontiac.org, the support is not strong enough to keep the website updated, so not likely able to convince a multi-billion dollar corporation to re-invest in a legacy brand.

      I’d love to continue to live in a world where horsepower is king and foreign competition was laughable, but sadly, that is not the current reality. Even the last Pontiac offerings did not offer the excitement and thrill of a Catalina 2+2, a RA IV GTO or the 455 HO of the early 70’s. Times have changed and demographics have evolved and values are different from the era of The Great One.

      Regarding your 6 points:
      (1&2) Pontiac sales were strong, but profit margins were slim. Buick’s profit margins were better than twice those of Pontiac, so the net profit was actually greater at Buick. Investing in a global brand is necessary for GM to be strong at home and abroad. Buick is strong in China, which is an extremely lucrative market right now and in the future.

      (3) Emphasis on the ‘was’. Looking at the final offerings from Pontiac:
      G3 – same as the outgoing Aveo.
      G5 – same as the outgoing Cobalt
      G6 – same as the Malibu pre-redesign
      G8 – Great car, but offered too late and not made in America.
      Vibe – Toyota Matrix. (Personally, I think sharing platforms across companies dilutes both sides)
      Torrent – Chevy Equinox.
      Solstice – another great car and unique, but limited market.
      The icons were iconic 40 years ago.

      (4) I can’t disagree there, except I question what we should be loyal to. I would rather be loyal to what made Pontiac great, which was no longer represented by the brand or the management of the brand at the end of its run. Even the bringpontiacback.org site is shortsighted in describing what killed Pontiac. Listen to Jim Wangers and you’ll understand that the death began in the mid 70’s and was drug out throughout the 80’s with badge engineering sullying Pontiacs good name. I will be loyal to what made Pontiac great, but not blindly loyal and I won’t support everything the General did with the brand.

      (5& 6) Yes, GM is healthy again and has repaid the loans ahead of schedule. It could be argued that their success relied on the shedding of Pontiac. I hate to admit that, I really do. But in thinking about what was lost was: a Toyota, three outdated Chevys, an Aussie and a small roadster. Yes, we lost the iconic name, but the Icons themselves died a long time ago.

      Why would GM want to revive a brand and share platforms that are successful without a Pontiac badge? The badge engineering is what killed Pontiac in the first place. What made Pontiac unique and special was the combination of their styling with their torque heavy engines. The engines are gone, and styling can only take one so far without a unique powertrain to complement it.

    • #38825
      Moanalua
      Participant

      1. Are you SURE that the Bring Pontiac Back website isn’t being updated due to lack of interest, and not some other reason? It’s had TECHNICAL issues in the past.
      2. You said yourself that GM is a multi-billion dollar corporation. It therefore DOES have the resources to re-invest in Pontiac. And why should it? You answered that question, too: BECAUSE Pontiac IS a LEGACY brand.
      3. Yes, I’m a musclecar guy, but that doesn’t mean GM HAS to revive Pontiac as a musclecar brand. GM can give a revived Pontiac any kind of line-up of vehicles that GM wants.
      4. Yes, Buick’s profit-per-vehicle was higher than Pontiac’s. That’s because Buick is a more-upscale brand, so its vehicles COST more. Buick’s per-vehicle profit is also higher than Chevy’s; Chevy is still around.
      5. Yes, Buick sells well in China. But Pontiac sold well in Canada. Doesn’t that make Pontiac SOMETHING of a global brand?
      6. Not ALL of Pontiac’s iconic vehicles were from “40 years ago.” The G8 and Solstice were iconic.
      7. Have to disagree with you regarding loyalty. I am loyal to the Pontiac brand. I like any and all Pontiacs. I maintain that ANY Pontiac is better than NO Pontiac at all.
      8. We can’t dump on Pontiac for badge-engineering. EVERY brand does that. GMC is a badge-engineered Chevy. Examples from other automakers? Lexus is a badge-engineered Toyota. Infiniti is a badge-engineered Nissan. Acura is a badge-engineered Honda, and so on.
      9. Let’s assume that GM killed Pontiac to stay alive during bankruptcy and the Great Recession. If we assume that, then Pontiac’s murder has ALREADY served its purpose. GM is no longer teetering on the edge of oblivion, and the Great Recession is over (it ended in May ’09). TIME TO BRING PONTIAC BACK.
      10. Buick had only THREE models when Pontiac was murdered. At least Pontiac had more than that (five). There was also talk of a G8 sport truck at the time.
      11. Why should Pontiac have to have a unique powertrain if Chevy and Buick don’t?
      12. Bottom line: If there is adequate demand for Pontiac (and I believe there is), then it makes business sense to revive it.

    • #38826
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua It seems that your goal is to revive Pontiac… just for the sake of reviving Pontiac… even if that results in inferior vehicles.

      What gives me that impression? From your list above:
      3. “Yes, I’m a musclecar guy, but that doesn’t mean GM HAS to revive Pontiac as a musclecar brand. GM can give a revived Pontiac any kind of line-up of vehicles that GM wants.”

      Now here I was thinking that we agreed that — in order to success in the marketplace — the new Pontiac would have to be something different and sporty. Would you welcome the old Chevy Aveo as a Pontiac? Or perhaps you’re saving up for an Aztek? Do you really not care about the way in which Pontiac makes a return?

      I just have to go over your list and point out the many inaccuracies and misconceptions:
      1. Who cares? The site has been inactive for months… looks like there isn’t as much enthusiasm as some assume.

      2. Having the resources doesn’t call for the necessity to use them. The same goes for a legacy brand. Should GM also revive Olds and Hummer? Those were “legacy”… and Hummer was legendary. Heck, so was Olds. Back in 1951!

      3. Already addressed above.

      4. Your thinking is way off here: Buick has a higher profit because it makes a luxury car. It’s a more lucrative space to be. The reason “Chevy is still around” is because it sold 7 vehicles for every 1 Pontiac, even during Pontiac’s heyday.

      GM is a business; and the new GM, especially, is not in the game of making excuses for “this selling more than that” or “that selling more than this”. It seems to me that all of the reasons you mentioned in this bullet point are just that — excuses. In reality, not that many people bought Pontiacs.

      5. Selling in Canada and the U.S. does not make a brand global. At the least, sales need to take place on more than two continents, if not all over the world. What’s more, auto sales in Canada are about one tenth their volume in the U.S. So being “more successful” there is like being successful in Australia: the market is too small to matter or make a dent.

      And Buick isn’t halfway done with its reincarnation.

      6. That’s a matter of opinion… but I’ll side with you on it.

      7. This harkens back to point #3. Would you take an inferior product with a Pontiac badge?

      8. “EVERY brand does that. GMC is a badge-engineered Chevy. Examples from other automakers? Lexus is a badge-engineered Toyota. Infiniti is a badge-engineered Nissan. Acura is a badge-engineered Honda, and so on.”

      – Some of GMC vehicles are badge engineered with Chevys. This won’t be this way for long. Just wait until the next-gen Silverado and Sierra.

      – “Lexus is a badge-engineered Toyota.” No, it’s not.
      – “Infiniti is a badge-engineered Nissan.” No, it’s not.
      – “Acura is a badge-engineered Honda, and so on.” Yes, it is.

      9. “Let’s assume that GM killed Pontiac to stay alive during bankruptcy and the Great Recession. If we assume that, then Pontiac’s murder has ALREADY served its purpose. GM is no longer teetering on the edge of oblivion, and the Great Recession is over (it ended in May ’09). TIME TO BRING PONTIAC BACK.”

      Why do we need to assume that Pontiac was discontinued to keep GM alive? The decision to drop it was made in bankruptcy court… not before it. GM didn’t gain anything and didn’t save anything by dropping Pontiac. It’s not like they immediately laid off x amount of workers at the corporate or plant levels for having discontinued Pontiac.

      It was dropped because GM could do it and felt it was time — strategically — to do so.

      10. “Buick had only THREE models when Pontiac was murdered. At least Pontiac had more than that (five). There was also talk of a G8 sport truck at the time.”

      What does this have to do with anything? Buick was being neglected in the same way as Pontiac. Buick was going to have an infusion of new product regardless of Pontiac.

      And are you counting the marvelous G3, G5, and Torrent with the five Pontiac models? Those weren’t even halfway decent vehicles, but rather unnecessary abominations.

      11. “Why should Pontiac have to have a unique powertrain if Chevy and Buick don’t?”

      What’s the point of Pontiac without something unique? Are we going to go back to the days of badge-engineered Pontiacs, then? G3, G5, G6, and Torrent?

      12. “Bottom line: If there is adequate demand for Pontiac (and I believe there is), then it makes business sense to revive it.”

      But it doesn’t! Demand is one thing… effort (profit/loss/quality, etc.) is another.

      Demand should never be the sole determining factor of the outcome of a business decision. It should come down to profit and loss.

      In my opinion, re-introducing Pontiac will result in the detraction from the remaining brands’ efforts such as design, engineering, marketing, sourcing, etc. So we’ll get a question mark of a vehicle lineup that will most likely be the same as that offered by Chevy… while making everything else GM makes worse off. Does that sound like a good idea?

    • #38827
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I get your point Alex, but three points I have to respond to are when you said: 1) GM got rid of Pontiac not because of the bankruptcy but because they felt like it was time.— Alex that is wrong. It is know that GM wanted to keep Pontiac and have 5 core brands instead of the 4 but the govt said they could only have four core brands. Geting rid of Pontiac was something GM really didnt want to do. 2) You said that “GM didn’t gain anything and didn’t save anything by dropping Pontiac.”—-Alex, that is not true at all. GM is saving a lot of money by not having Pontiac around today. Also, GM did lose something when they got rid of Pontiac….they lost a lot of fans and customers. 3) You said Pontiac wasnt selling.—Well if u mean internationally then ya your right because Pontiac was a North American brand but if you mean in north American, you are WRONG! Pontiacs were GM’s 3rd best selling brand in the USA when it was phased out. I cant leave my house without seeing a crap load of Pontiacs everywhere I go, they are all over the roads……I just had to address those points.

    • #38829
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Alrighty:

      1. “GM got rid of Pontiac not because of the bankruptcy but because they felt like it was time.— Alex that is wrong. It is know that GM wanted to keep Pontiac and have 5 core brands instead of the 4 but the govt said they could only have four core brands. Geting rid of Pontiac was something GM really didnt want to do.”

      What do you mean it’s “wrong”, man? Were you physically present during the Chapter 11 proceedings? Were you there during board room meetings? How can you make that claim? And how can one say that GM — as company — wanted to do this or do that?

      GM isn’t a person — it didn’t “want” to do anything. Here’s what really happens in most large organizations: there are factions that support one idea and other camps that support other ideas. Pontiac was an idea that was on its way out. And this is from many within GM’s ranks!

      Furthermore, many incorrectly assume that “the government” is running GM… or that it has or had some kind of huge influence over operations. Again, there is only a small amount of truth to this. But for the most part, GM and several automotive task force folks took a hard look at its business. And decided that Pontiac had to go. It wasn’t a high-volume brand… and its profits were abysmal. So it was a lose-lose.

      The fact that GM was hurting for cash meant that it needed to focus on what it can do right and what brought the largest return: Chevy, Buick, and Caddy. The government’s involvement is irrelevant, since the decisions made would have been made anyway by good business people. All “the government” did was help expedite the bankruptcy process.

      2. “You said that “GM didn’t gain anything and didn’t save anything by dropping Pontiac.”—-Alex, that is not true at all. GM is saving a lot of money by not having Pontiac around today. Also, GM did lose something when they got rid of Pontiac….they lost a lot of fans and customers.”

      Customers aside, how did GM save money by dumping Pontiac, exactly? Did they lay off a considerable amount of Pontiac employees? Did they close down Pontiac-only factories? How did GM “save”?

      3. “You said Pontiac wasnt selling.—Well if u mean internationally then ya your right because Pontiac was a North American brand but if you mean in north American, you are WRONG!”

      No, Pontiac was — in fact — NOT selling. It wasn’t selling well.

      In its heyday (around 2002/2003), the brand topped out at 40,000 sales per month in the U.S. If it were a top-end luxury brand making a high profit margin per vehicle, that would be phenomenal. But that’s not what it was.

      Pontiac was supposed to be a mainstream brand, but it didn’t have the volume or the profit margin to make business sense.

      The brand wasn’t making any money but was a resource drain on GM. It’s as simple as that.

    • #38832
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Cool?

    • #38833
      Moanalua
      Participant

      alex, let me put the same questions to you that you put to PontiacRulz. Were YOU physically present during the Chapter 11 proceedings? Were YOU there during the boardroom meetings? The reason I ask is that I, too, had heard that GM would have preferred to keep Pontiac, but that the Feds twisted its arm.

      As a corporation, GM IS, legally, like a person. That’s what incorporation is designed to do. Corporations, like people, CAN want or not want to do something. Incorporation is designed to give a corporation the same legal rights as a person.

      I would agree that Pontiac, unfortunately, wasn’t a high-profit brand. But how can you say that it wasn’t a high-volume brand? It was #3 in sales at GM, and was outselling Buick two-to-one.

      I’m inclined to challenge the idea that GM would have killed Pontiac anyway, even without the Feds requiring it. Pontiac was a strong legacy brand with a large following, and had potential.

      “Pontiac wasn’t selling well.” What? We just said that it was #3 in sales, exceeded only by Chevy and GMC, and was outselling Buick two-to-one.

      Yes, Pontiac was a mainstream brand, AND it had the volume to make business sense.

    • #38834
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Bravo Moanalua!

    • #38835
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua — Having incorporated nine businesses so far in my lifetime and having a slight edification in business law, I’m well aware of the legal intricacies of a business. But that was not my point: the fact remains that a corporation is still NOT a person. It’s a legal entity… but it has no feelings.

      So it constantly surprises me that individuals blatantly state that “GM wanted x, y, and z”. There are multiple levels of decision-making at most multinational companies, GM included. So while GM employee Joe Smith may have wanted item x, her colleague Jay Doe may have wanted item y. The point is that a company has backers and detractors of certain business ideas and decisions. I know that there were, indeed, folks within GM who were not fond of continuing to throw resources at Pontiac. End of story.

      To your question: no, of course I was not present during the Chapter 11 proceedings, board meetings, etc. But neither were you, or @PontiacRulz. So for us to sit here and conjecture about what “GM wanted to do” and what “GM didn’t want to do” doesn’t lead to anything and doens’t help your argument and wishes to bring back Pontiac. Again, the point is that there were many within GM’s ranks who wanted to trim the brand and product portfolio in order to deliver a better product where it matters most. And there were those who didn’t agree with them. Perhaps one of these ideas got to GM’s primary decision makers first. Who knows?

      Point is, GM got a ton of money in the bailout and had the added pleasure of having their eyes open in relation to what was and what wasn’t working for them. Pontiac wasn’t working.

      Finally:
      “Pontiac wasn’t selling well.” What? We just said that it was #3 in sales, exceeded only by Chevy and GMC, and was outselling Buick two-to-one.”

      It doesn’t matter if Pontiac was GM’s #3 or #303 best-seller.

      The point is that Pontiac was selling poorly for what it was supposed to be — a mainstream product. At its best, Pontiac topped out at roughly 40,000 vehicle sales a month (some time in 2002 or 2003). By comparison, Chevrolet sold over 161,000 vehicles in December of 2011. It sold close to 200,000 in the month that Pontiac delivered its 40,000-some unit sales. Does those numbers seem a success to you?

      Lastly, you keep bringing up Buick and the fact that Pontiac was outselling it. This is irrelevant, as Buick is a premium/luxury brand with a wider profit margin. This margin will continue to grow over the next decade — as Buick introduces an all-new line-up and keeps moving upmarket to, in my opinion, be a direct Lexus competitor.

      Buick allows GM the luxury of efficiency: it doesn’t have to run its plants at full capacity to make enough vehicles and meet a higher break-even. In other words, the break-even occurs at a much lower volume for Buick than it does for Pontiac and Chevy. For Buick, the plants don’r require strenuous and inefficient overtime (that more often than not leads to poor quality), and the market doesn’t get a dump of over-supply and not-in-demand vehicles. So can we avoid comparing the sales of Buick to those of Pontiac? You wouldn’t compare Lexus sales to those of Pontiac, would you?

      Now, to reuse your closing statement:

      Yes, Pontiac was a mainstream brand. But it failed to achieve mainstream sales success due to low volumes — and was therefore discontinued.

    • #38840
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      If it wasn’t for the bankruptcy it wouldnt be gone. It was selling good but due to the GM bankruptcy, Pontiac went. Chevy is the volume brand, GMC 2nd in sales and doesnt cost a whole lot to operate as a brand, Buick sells in China and Caddy is the luxury top of line for GM. Pontiac was just in the wrong position at the wrong time (sales wise and because it didnt sell outside of NA). Alex how can you compare the 200,000 sales of Chevy to the 40,000 of Pontiac? Chevy has SUV’s, trucks, and and a huge lineup of all kinds of vehicles v.s. Pontiac which had what 5 vehicles at the time. You cant compare that. Pontiac wasnt expected to sell the amount of vehicles that Chevy did—-chevy’s a mainstream brand from compacts to suburbans and Pontiac was a sports brand, of course the chevy brand is going to sell more. Bottom line, Pontiac would still be around if not for the bankruptcy. It was selling the way it was supposed to but was just in the wrong situation when GM went into bankruptcy.

    • #38841
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Hey man — a sale is a sale; or in Vin Diesel’s words: it doesn’t matter if you win by an inch or a mile — winning is winning.

      We were first comparing Pontiac to Chevy and how it was the third best-selling brand in the GM stable. Now you’re telling me it’s not fair to make that comparison. Ultimately, Pontiac ended its life with sub-par vehicles in the G3, G5, G6, Vibe, and Torrent; the G8 and Solstice were great — but weren’t enough… and may have as well been Chevys.

      That said, I’m surprised Pontiac even got as far as 40,000 monthly units with that lineup, especially considering the G8 and Solstice were über-niche vehicles.

    • #38842
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Another question Alex…If Pontiac was still around, would you have a “Pontiac” tab on the blog page?

    • #38843
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Absolutely would. But no Pontiac news + no demand thereof = no button. :-bd

    • #38844
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Remember in the early 2000’s though there was the Grand Prix, Bonneville, Grand Am. Three awesome cars that weren’t rebadges.

      But even if Pontiac is gone, cars like I mentioned above and especially the GTO, Firebird/Trans Am, Cheiftan, Catalina, Le Mans, Star Cheif, Tempest and so many others….heck even the Banshee will live on FOREVER! To me Pontiac= America and it’s best days car wise and generally.

    • #38845
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      No Pontiac new, true….but no demand? NOT TRUE! There is plenty of demand for Pontiac as a brand to come back and that’s a fact.

    • #38846
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      I wasn’t referring to market demand for vehicles, but rather demand for news, rumors, etc. that doesn’t exist for the brand…

      Not sure how you can say “not true” to there being no demand of Pontiac vehicles… can we quantify this?

    • #38847
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Just go on Pontiac’s Facebook page for example, there is a crap load of people wanting Pontiac back. Go on YouTube, Google the topic…it’s everywhere.

    • #38848
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Alex you and I always have the best conversations don’t we? I like you for that 😛

    • #38849
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Thanks mate. The feeling is mutual 🙂

    • #38850
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      So does that mean you’ll let me take you for a ride in my Pontiac? 😉 haha

    • #38851
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Lolz. Yes, but only if we drive to the Melting Pot and you pay for dinner. I’ll stop there 😉

    • #38852
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Oh no! I didnt mean it that way dude! haha I was just trying to be funny 😛

    • #38853
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Yes I know. So was I. You didn’t get it?

    • #38854
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I thought you were just trying to be funny too but I wasnt sure haha. And I had no idea what the melting pot was so I had to look it up haha.

    • #38855
      Brian_E
      Participant

      Moanalua:
      Just wanted to say that your response confused me a bit. I had assumed that you were wanting a return of Pontiac so GM would offer the performance that was ingrained in its legacy. As I now understand it, you want a Pontiac badged car with little regard to what type of car they offer? Is that correct? I can’t think of any Pontiac fans that I’ve talked to that want Pontiac to be anything but performance oriented. You’re the first. It sounds like you just want the name on a car – any car. If that is how you feel about it, then our opinions differ by more than I thought.

      The Pontiacs that I loved had a distinctive style and performance. Here are some of my favorite Pontiacs and why:

      Obviously for me the 1971/72 Grand Prix’s. Love the long hood and styling (A theme of ‘three’ ran throughout the car). The 455 was/is a torque monster engine. (Many high-school memories for me)

      1972 Formula – The twin hood scoops and upfront grille look awesome to me. Throw on T/A wheel spats and spoiler and it really comes to life. Plus, the Pontiac engines were hard to beat, with the most performance options of the GM products.

      1964 GTO – A favorite because it was arguably the firing gun of the Muscle car era.

      Fiero – It took a look at performance from the opposite side of the HP/Weight ratio. A small two-seater mid-engined car. The only mid-engined car mass produced in the US. The ’88GT was the best looking of the best offerings.

      1997-2003 Grand Prix – I’ve got a soft spot for GP’s. They had a combination of performance and style that was uniquely pontiac. (I’m sure people at Chevrolet were upset that the GP had a higher HP figures than the comparable MC) Plus there is a performance parts market for them that rivals the famous Buick Grand Nationals of the 80’s (which used a similar 3.8 blown motor.)

      Solstice – Another one of the smaller sporty vehicles. I wish they had marketed this more aggressively at the Miata crowd.

      G8 – This is a favorite of mine just because it was one of the last things the Pontiac division was allowed to do properly. Even though it’s similar to the GTO from a few years before, this was executed better and didn’t try to capitalize on a legendary nameplate. It stood well on its own, and would have done significantly better if it was released in 2005 or 6.

      I have specific reasons why I loved Pontiac cars, bringing back the name only wouldn’t cut it for me.

      Alex had responded to many of your points so I won’t duplicate him. I will only add a few extra reasons why I am not pleading with GM to bring it back.

      1. Pontiac has been a rogue division of sorts since 1959. I’ve read John DeLoreans Autobiography and Jim Wangers excellent Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit. Pontiac had a history of being restricted by Corporate. In the 60’s, they followed the axiom: “Its better to ask for forgiveness than to beg for permission.” That’s the only way they were successful within GM’s structure. DeLorean was promoted from Head of Pontiac Division to Head up Chevrolet. (illustrating the pecking order inside the General) After he left Pontiac, James McDonald succeeded him and, along with those that followed him, was a corporate yes man who cared more about his personal careers than cars. McDonald is also responsible for introducing the badge engineering that took place in the 80’s. My point is that Pontiac had been in decline for decades.

      2. I don’t want a weak Pontiac. I want a strong performing Pontiac that has its own Identity. GM currently has in place a car for nearly every segment. Chevrolet and Buick both have been trying to put out performance offerings to fill any gaps that Pontiac left. It will take a good five years for Buick to establish any performance cred. To quote Bunkie: “You can sell a young man’s car to an old man, but you cannot sell an old man’s car to a young man.” Given time, Buick can change that, but it won’t be quick. Chevy has incorporated aggressive features into there newer designs, which should help to woo many (not all) Pontiac customers. Given the direction of Chevy and Buick, GM has not left any space for Pontiac to fit in. If you create something other than a performance oriented car and call it a Pontiac, it would be a Pontiac in name only, and I don’t see the point in that myself.

      3. In order to bring back Pontiac at this point, you would likely need to hire a whole new staff. It would not make business sense to pull away or share R&D, Engineering, Sales, Marketing (which is contracted out, I think), Quality Control, and Senior Executives. Sharing distorts their focus. Additionally, the only logical way I see to manufacture the cars, would be to retool existing facilities and complicate the logistics with existing manufacturing lines. I’m sure it’s even more complex than I’ve just described. I can see how eliminating Pontiac helped to streamline the operation. I’m not thrilled about it, but given what Pontiac was producing at the end, I find it easy to say good-bye to the G3, G5, G6, Vibe, and Torrent. I miss the Solstice and G8, but am optimistic that something will replace them in the Chevy or Buick stable.

      Crap that was long…. Sorry. (Thanks Alex for the autosave)

    • #38856
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Good post Brian_E. It’s just sad that we got the G3, G5, etc. when we could have been getting true Pontiacs. GM destroyed Pontiac by building what it did. GM should have done Pontiac better.

    • #38858
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Brian_E: I can’t understand how ANYONE who truly loves the Pontiac brand can EVER say–under ANY circumstances–that he doesn’t want it back. That simply blows my mind. And let me clear-up the confusion: YES, I want Pontiac back; IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM that GM pleases. Beggars can’t be choosy. I INSIST that ANY Pontiac is better than NO PONTIAC AT ALL. Until Pontiac is back, everyone who drives a Pontiac (including me) is driving an orphan. That’s a stigma that the Pontiac brand doesn’t deserve, and neither do we who own and drive them. Since when was half a loaf better than none? How can it be better that the Pontiac brand remain in the grave? Such a great brand should not have been PUT in the grave in the FIRST place. Are we to enjoy saying, “I love a DEAD car brand”? The Pontiac brand deserves better, and so do we. Let’s assume that GM brings the brand back, but not with its great former musclecar/performance vehicles. I INSIST: Better THAT than DEAD.

    • #38860
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Oops: What I meant to say is, “Since when was no bread at all, better than half a loaf?”

    • #38861
      Brian_E
      Participant

      Thanks PontiacRulz!

      Moanalua:
      I do want Pontiac back. It is just that, based on what I’ve learned, it doesn’t seem realistic to expect GM to resurrect it. And I feel that I need to have some standards. I can’t accept just anything that would tarnish the legacy.

      This may be a poor analogy, but here goes..
      To me, getting Pontiac back in name only is like a guy who finds his true love. They soon marry and enjoy a wonderful life together. He loves her completely. Her curves, her scent, the way she whispers in his ear, the way she turns him on, her reliable devotion to taking care of him, the way she makes him feel about himself, etc. However, down the path of life the wife gets cancer. The sweet life becomes a struggle. It doesn’t change the way they feel about each other, and they stand together until her final moments.
      The man is now distraught and grieves her loss. He longs for her back. Eventually those longings become cries for anyone – it just has to have her name. He then finds another woman with the same name and they soon court and marry. However, she is different. Her curves are not inspiring to him, he doesn’t care for her perfume, her voice is like Fran Drescher, even her attempts to rev him up are more functional than exciting, and when they’re out in public he is somewhat embarrassed. She tries to satisfy him, and he tries to reassure himself, “Hey, at least she has the same name.” Other women see him as a fine catch and try to woo him, but he is dedicated to his betrothed. Even though each of those women possess some of the qualities that were enchanting with his first love, he is committed to the name.

      My point being.. the name is nothing. The car is everything. No loaf is better than a moldy loaf.

      I wish Pontiac wasn’t put in the grave. But as others who were within Pontiac during their glory days have said, GM had been unwittingly digging the grave since the 70’s.
      While it does pain me to say that Pontiac is gone, I can remember the good times with fondness and reverence… Much like a widower about his deceased wife.

    • #38862
      Moanalua
      Participant

      But if we DO want Pontiac back, it won’t do to talk about why it “shouldn’t” or “couldn’t” come back, right? It that’s the case, we ALL might as well give up. And while I appreciate your analogy, I don’t think I could ever see any Pontiac as a “physically inferior woman,” or even as a moldy loaf of bread. I appreciate the logic, but it loses something in the translation to Pontiac. I think the bottom line is this: This thread is about bringing Pontiac back. It would be a minor miracle if the brand DOES return. Let’s not indulge in “nattering nabobs of negativism.” If we love the brand, let’s all pull together to try to bring it back. Otherwise, why are we taking the time to post?

    • #38863
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      If KIA and Hyundai (sp?) and Suzuki and Audi and the multitude of Japanese brands can introduce new brands, seemingly at will – surely Pontiac can be resurrected – if only for a niche market – but certainly a full lineup is possible. All GM has to do is follow the Korean/Japanese/German playbook – with cars like the G8, which was better than any of them while cheaper to boot. Part of the playbook would be to follow their labor relations rules – no union – comparable salary and benefits to their workers – no more $70K to thread lugnuts. As for me, no more GM cars in my lineup until Pontiac returns !

    • #38864
      Moanalua
      Participant

      gcmeninsr: Good for you! And welcome to this thread! It’s so nice to have aboard, another feisty Pontiac loyalist who refuses to make excuses for OTHER brands, who doesn’t try to JUSTIFY Pontiac’s murder, and who refuses to make excuses as to why Pontiac “shouldn’t” or “can’t” return. God knows we need more folks like you on this thread. This is SUPPOSED to be a pro-Pontiac, “bring the brand back” thread, but you’d never know it by reading some of the posts here.

    • #38866
      Brian_E
      Participant

      Moanalua: Sorry for my negative natterings, I’m just trying to be realistic based on the information I have. And based on that info laid out in my previous posts, it is highly unlikely that Pontiac will be back. I’m only sharing my personal viewpoint within the forum. That’s what I thought the forum was for. This thread is titled – “Who thinks it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again?” I am talking about Pontiac from my own experience. I want the best for Pontiac. In music, sports and a few other areas, you always hear about those that should have quit years ago. But, by continuing on, they hurt their reputation and ‘legacy’. I want Pontiac remembered for the greatness that it was -not the poor corporate decisions putting a bad mark on it. Case in point: Pontiac Lemans. The 60’s and early 70’s models were extremely competitive and only overshadowed by their GTO sibling. The 89-93 was a POS and had no business with that name.
      I love Pontiac for what they were, not what they became. If GM did/would bring back the nameplate, I don’t want to see some half-assed attempt to appease vocal fans screaming for its ressurection. Based on GM’s track record with Pontiac and their devotion to promoting Chevrolet, I don’t see Pontiac returning as a class leader in affordable performance.

      To reprint part of PontiacRulz opening post:
      “GM needed to get rid of Pontiac so it could get its act together, we all know this. But I think it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again. GM is missing an important segment now, the affordble performance.”

      The gap in the affordable performance segment is slowly closing. GM has already taken steps to fill the Pontiac void with Chevy. Asking GM to put an arrowhead on any car projected to get a bowtie (or tri-shield) is like a knight telling the king that there’s room for one more on the throne.

      As far as a niche market is concerned, that may be Pontiacs’ only possible hope. Still, I haven’t heard any convincing arguments for any car that includes the intended market, the logistics, manufacturing, projected sales numbers, etc. And if such a case exists, what is the likelihood that Cheverolet won’t demand it? Sure, I’d love to see a good performance Pontiac come off the assembly line again, but based on GM actions thus far, it’s about as probable as Steven Hawking walking again, as unfortunate as that sounds. I’m not willing to get my hopes up.

      I do want to say that I respect you for having such hope that I can’t see.

    • #38869
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I have to agree with Brian_E. I wouldn’t want Pontiac coming back as a boring no personality brand. Pontiac should only come back if it will live up to it’s performance character. If GM brought Pontiac back as nothing but boring cars that might as well be Chevys, then I’d rather Pontiac not come back at all. Pontiac has a performance image. Without that image it wouldn’t have any character, it would just be a boring car brand and there would be no point in bringing it back. When you think about Pontiac your supposed to think PERFORMANCE AND EXCITEMENT! Good ole American muscle from a good ole American brand, PONTIAC!

      Also, as the creator of this discusssion, I have seen posts from people on here saying that this discussion is only for people who want Pontiac back. That is not true. This discussion is for everyone whether you support it coming back or not. I created this topic so that people can voice their opinions. So far this is the most popular post on the whole forum and I am very happy I made such a popular topic 🙂 Thanks to everyone who keeps this popular and fun discussion alive.

    • #38870
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Fair enough. What disturbs me, though, is that sometimes this thread seems to take-on the character of a boxing match rather than a forum where folks share their positions with respect, consideration, and decorum. Sometimes I wonder what ever happened to internet etiquette. I hope that we aren’t going to attempt to pass-off rudeness, sarcasm, and dogmatism as virtues. I can imagine some folks attempting to spin those traits and re-cast them as “candidness,” “authenticity,” “transparency,” etc. I invite you all to re-read all the posts from the beginning and come to your own conclusions.

      PontiacRulz, it seems (at least SO far) that only you, gcmeninsr, and I, think that Pontiac has even an ice cube’s chance in hell of returning. I respect your position that unless Pontiac returns as a performance brand, then it might as well not return at all. I believe a few other folks on this thread feel the same as you do. I’m just worried that if we demand that GM jump through too many hoops, it might just decide to tell us where to go. Apparently, some folks are willing to tell GM, “Bring Pontiac back, but not only that; bring it back MY way.” I’m not so sure that GM would take very kindly to that. It seems that such a course of action on our part would create a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Again, several of you have said, “If Pontiac can’t come back as a performance brand, then it might as well not come back at all.” Then GM might say, “Fine. If you’re going to attempt to dictate to us HOW the brand should return, then we WON’T bring it back.” That’s my fear. Ever since GM murdered Pontiac, I’ve felt the need to go on-line and do my small part to help build-up a critical mass of consumer demand that might compel GM to bring the brand back. I simply cannot imagine Pontiac never returning again. Such a bleak prospect is unacceptable. After DECADES of being a proud Pontiac owner, I cannot glibly say, “Well, since GM decided not to bring the brand back MY way, I don’t CARE that it’s gone for good.” Unacceptable. gcmeninsr, what do YOU think?

    • #38875
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      My understanding is that Pontiac outsold Audi/Volvo combined (??) – not to mention Buick & Cadillac – how is it not viable to bring them back ?? IMO it was soley BO’s decision to nix the brand – as with incandescents – and put our $$ into Solandra – great management decision.

    • #38877
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @gcmeninsr So you’re comparing Pontiac, a brand with a very slim profit margin, to luxury automakers with a higher margin than Cadillac… How does that make any sense?

    • #38883
      Moanalua
      Participant

      alex, I’d like to address a previous claim you made that Buick is a luxury brand, since you mentioned luxury automakers in the post above. My position is that Buick is not a luxury brand, but a mainstream brand. When we describe Buick as a luxury brand, that gives Buick a free pass, and I for one won’t do that. Buick is the most luxurious of GM’s mainstream brands, to be sure. But it’s a mainstream brand nonetheless. CADILLAC is GM’s one and only luxury brand.

      gcmeninsr, thanks for responding. I support you comparison of Pontiac to Audi and Volvo. It underscores the outrageousness of Pontiac’s murder. On other Pontiac-related websites, I’ve read that Pontiac’s sales were roughly equal to BMW’s. BMW wasn’t given the free pass that its per-unit profit is higher, or that it’s more luxurious than Pontiac. Neither should Audi, Volvo, OR Buick. Bottom line: Pontiac was a pretty popular brand. That’s but ONE reason why it should be revived.

    • #38885
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      I’d respectfully disagree.

      If anything, Buick is a premium brand at the moment. However, most of the current lineup was rushed to market post-bankruptcy to fill in the gaps.

      Internally, GM is hard at work in making Buick a true luxury brand to go head-to-head with Lexus. You will see the first real Buicks, rather then rush jobs, soon with the Envision and next-gen LaCrosse.

      The thinking is that there are two primary forms of luxury: performance luxury and pure luxury.

      Performance lux is done by BMW, Audi, Infiniti, and MB, while pure lux is Lexus. Drive a Lexus back-to-back with any of the performance lux brands and you’ll see the vastly different experience.

      Buick is for the pure luxury side. Caddy is for performance.

      Like I said, Buick is a premium brand right now with a strong objective to move up and become a luxury player.

    • #38889
      Moanalua
      Participant

      OK. I agree that Lexus is pure lux, and that Buick is targeting Lexus. Now: IF we can assume–at least for the moment–that Pontiac DOES return, why can’t it go after BMW, as it HAD been doing since 1973? I agree with you that BMW is performance lux. Well: Pontiac was a performance brand, right? And Pontiac has had elements of luxury. Look at such models as the old Luxury Le Mans. And you and I agreed earlier that while Pontiac can’t snag folks who CAN afford a BMW, it CAN snag those who CAN’T.

      While I’m at it, I’d like to offer more evidence that Buick is–and always has been–a mainstream brand. As you may know from my previous posts, I’m a musclecar guy, so I’d like to think I know a thing or two about musclecars. Let’s select the year 1973, just out of a hat. In 1973, Buick had a midsize musclecar, the Gran Sport. That, of course, was Buick’s answer to Pontiac’s midsize musclecar, the GTO. In fact, Buick had the Gran Sport–again, a midsize musclecar– ever since 1965! (Pontiac had the GTO since ’64). If Buick wasn’t a mainstream brand, why did it have that musclecar? We’re agreed that Cadillac IS a luxury brand, right? Well, Cadillac DIDN’T have a midsize musclecar during that era. In fact, Cadillac didn’t even HAVE a midsize model, period. The fact that Buick DID have not only a midsize model (Skylark, and then after ’72, Century), but a midsize musclecar, proves that Buick was INDEED a mainstream brand, competing with OTHER mainstream brands like Pontiac, in the midsize market as well as the musclecar market. Cadillac–the luxury brand–competed in NEITHER. The only difference is that the Skylarks and Centurys were SUPPOSED to be more “luxurious” than the Pontiac Tempests and Le Manses (Pontiac’s midsize models) and the Gran Sports were supposed to be more “luxurious” than the GTOs, because Buick was more “upscale” than Pontiac. More-upscale, more luxurious, but a mainstream brand nonetheless. Buick wasn’t a luxury brand per se, for if it were, then like Cadillac it not only wouldn’t have had a musclecar during that era, it wouldn’t even have had a midsize model, period.

    • #38893
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      To compete with a certain brand/automaker, Pontiac would actually have to take potential sales away from that brand. So what we’re talking about here is Pontiac taking willing, able, and ready-to-buy BMW customers. And that’s just ludicrous.

      What’s more realistic – as you said – is for those who can’t afford BMW to get a Pontiac… and at that point, Pontiac isn’t competing with BMW; they’re competing in a separate space for a different customer — one who wouldn’t have bought a BMW in the first place. So again, Pontiac wouldn’t compete with BMW… it would compete with other mainstream-priced brands/makers.

      As for Buick, times have changed — and are a’changing still. In 1973, Lexus was non-existent… heck, Cadillac was a completely different form of luxury back then. And Buick was totally different back then, as well. The examples of luxury I presented earlier are in the “now” — and have most likely changed significantly over the last four decades.

    • #38894
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @gcmeninsr

      “If KIA and Hyundai (sp?) and Suzuki and Audi and the multitude of Japanese brands can introduce new brands, seemingly at will – surely Pontiac can be resurrected – if only for a niche market – but certainly a full lineup is possible. All GM has to do is follow the Korean/Japanese/German playbook – with cars like the G8, which was better than any of them while cheaper to boot. Part of the playbook would be to follow their labor relations rules – no union – comparable salary and benefits to their workers – no more $70K to thread lugnuts. As for me, no more GM cars in my lineup until Pontiac returns!”

      Looks like you’ll be missing out on some pretty great vehicles!

      Other than that, which Japanese/Korean automaker is “introducing new brands, seemingly at will”?

    • #38895
      Brian_E
      Participant

      Moanalua:
      If I’ve been overly adversarial or rude, I sincerely apologize. My intent was to offer my opinions and my reasoning for them. Rereading my comments and yours, I also wrote why I disagreed with you. I wasn’t trying to discount your opinion, only hoping that you would understand my point of view. Maybe I haven’t worked hard enough to see your side.

      If we want Pontiac back, then we need to convince GM that it is an advantagous and ‘right’ thing to do. Doing that requires us to understand what GM considers, ‘right’. In my understanding, GM, in the very least, considers ‘right’ by profit. It is not advantagous to be unprofitable (unless it leads to a more profitable long term goal).

      So, HOW can we convince GM that Pontiac will provide a more profitable solution than what they currently offer?

      First, I would think we would need to present a business case that provides a compelling financial incentive for GM to revive the Pontiac Brand.

      1. What does the Pontiac name have that can’t be duplicated by the existing makes?
      2. What kind of car does that represent, and why is it best manufactured as a Pontiac?
      3a. What is the size of the sales potential for Pontiac not realized with current GM products?
      3b. What is the expected sales volume?
      4. How would the brand be marketed to those group?
      5. What would be required of GM to invest in this proposal?
      6. What are some possible solutions for staffing that do not detract or weaken the existing brands?
      6a. Where could R&D staffing come from?
      6b. How can testing be performed with minimal distruption of other makes? Could testing of Pontiac vehicles better benefit other makes?
      6c. Who could handle the marketing campaign?

      7. What are some possible solutions to tooling and manufacturing?
      7a. Where could the cars be manufactured to minimize distruptions or to add synergy to existing line-ups?
      7b. What are the tooling costs? How could those be minimized?

      8. Would sales resume at Buick/GMC dealers?
      9. Does that fit with the Buick/GMC market? If not, what is another alternative with minimal risk and investment?

      These questions are just a starting point. Obviously, no one person has the answers to these questions. Maybe there are others in and around the group of Pontiac loyalists who can help. I would think if we are to convince GM to do this, then they need to see it as an advantage.

      Being a former employee of one of Koch Industries companies, I have had a small amount of training in Market Based Management. One of the things I took away from that is the realization that there are three primary things required for people and/or companies to act:
      a. A dissatisfaction with the current state or situation.
      b. A vision of a better state or situation.
      c. A path or means to acheive that state.

      Now, if we can present to GM a vision of a better situation WITH Pontiac that makes them dissatisfied WITHOUT Pontiac, and if we can show them how it can be done, then there could be a future for Pontiac.

      So, how do you want to start gathering the information?

    • #38896
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Brian_E Seems like a great starting point for a business plan/proposal. One would need to dig around for data to support some claims and also have a good understanding of GM’s financial model/structure and expenses.

      PS: Perhaps @Moanalua is referring to me in regards to the rude part. For some reason, my writing tends to come across that way on occasion. 😐

    • #38898
      CuriousObserver
      Participant

      Pontiac was great in its heyday, but it is DEAD! Actually GM needs to think about axing GMC and positioning Buick to be the sport-luxury step up from Chevy. Chevrolet, like other competitors, will improve interior quality so you don’t need another redundant brand.

    • #38899
      Moanalua
      Participant

      To all: Please don’t be offended by my earlier rant about rudeness and internet etiquette. Please be assured that I wasn’t trying to offend anyone. And Brian_E, if you look at your posts, you are probably the most polite person on this thread; I certainly wasn’t trying to implicate you. And by the way, if I myself am guilty of rudeness, please call me on it. I should certainly be held to the same standards as everyone else. Again, I didn’t mean to offend anyone, so if anyone WAS offended, I apologize.

      Brian_E, when I read your three conditions that require companies to act, I thought of PontiacRulz and I, because he and I seem to be the most dissatisfied folks on this thread, regarding the current situation of “Pontiaclessness.” And as PontiacRulz and I have said, the evidence of this dissatisfaction is ALL OVER the internet. So, it seems pretty clear that the first condition has been met. Now, not EVERYONE is dissatisfied with the situation; CuriousObserver is obviously OK with it. But again, if you surf the ‘net for pro-Pontiac sites, you’ll see that MANY folks AREN’T. Go ask PontiacRulz, and he’ll tell you about the MASSIVE dissatisfaction engendered by Pontiac’s absence.

      The second condition is pretty obvious; MOST of us on this thread would like to see Pontiac return, so THAT’S a condition that we can articulate pretty clearly: A better state of affairs would see the RETURN of Pontiac.

      The THIRD condition is the doozy. It seems that we just CAN’T agree on how Pontiac should return. And again, there are some folks on this thread who think that Pontiac not only SHOULDN’T return, but CAN’T return. Just some thoughts off my cuff: Pontiac was around less than three years ago. It HAD been around for many decades. I find it very hard to believe that the market has changed SO MUCH in less than three years, that Pontiac is now forever out of the question. I simply don’t buy that, PARTICULARLY when it had such a large following, and was right behind GMC at #3. To my knowledge, no one on this thread is with GM’s marketing division. I don’t know that anyone can spell-out the calculus of what it would take to bring Pontiac back. I have to suggest that we leave THAT to GM. For OUR part, I think a better role for us is to let GM know that a LOT of folks want Pontiac back; not everyone, and obviously not everyone on this thread. But throughout the US–and in Canada, too–a LOT of folks want Pontiac back. Again, PontiacRulz can tell us about how GM is being bombarded with entreaties to bring the brand back.

    • #38900
      Brian_E
      Participant

      No worries, Moanalua. I appreciate your passion for the brand. Having an Engineering background, I guess I’m more pragmatic, and that often leads me to shoot down ideas quickly.

      I agree, that third condition IS a doozy.

      Now, try to look at it from GM’s view. If you want THEM to act, the three conditions apply. They need to be dissatisfied with their current situation and also convinced that including Pontiac is the better vision. That is what they need to be sold on. And then there is the question of HOW do they acheive that vision? I think if Pontiac is to come back there must be some unification on what Pontiac will be and what the target market will be.
      GM won’t go in blindly under the assumption “If you build it, they will buy.” That is 1980’s GM thinking.

      GM needs a well-defined business case built on facts and supporting information. There are many voices shouting for Pontiac, but this isn’t a concert where we chant really loud for an encore.

      I can’t think of any brand that’s been ressurrected (Except Bugatti). Specific models maybe, but not entire brands. This is something unprecedented, so the case must be strong to convince GM to go where noone else has gone before. Maybe it would be easier to focus on one model. The Trans-am would be the easiest with the Camaro out there already, but still a difficult proposition requiring a solid business case.

      If the pro Pontiac sites coordinate a unified effort on a single model, that could gain some traction if the business case is solid. But I can’t see GM acting without financial details.

    • #38901
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Brian_E: The point I’ve been trying to make for some time on this thread is that GM ITSELF is in the best position to determine the financial details. Who better to determine those details than GM’s own marketing experts and bean-counters? For US to suggest a business plan to GM would be condescension. If you look back at my posts, my position is that OUR role is to show GM that there is ADEQUATE DEMAND for the brand’s return. alex posted that that shouldn’t be the basis for such a decision. That bucks Econ 100. We’re talking classic SUPPLY AND DEMAND. As an Econ major, I’d like to think I know what I’m talking about here. If there is ADEQUATE DEMAND for a good or service, then in a free-market economy (such as we have here), a merchant or business will SUPPLY that good or service. What PontiacRulz in particular–and I–have been suggesting is that there is ADEQUATE DEMAND for Pontiac, to make the return of the brand feasible. AND–in the case of Pontiac–there are some NON-PECUNIARY considerations as well:

      1. Pontiac was no also-ran brand. It was a strong LEGACY brand. The Pontiac brand has NON-PECUNIARY VALUE to GM.
      2. The Pontiac brand wasn’t murdered due to low sales, per se. It was #3, right behind GM. It was murdered because of the Great Recession. I.e., chances are that the brand might still be around but for the Recession. The Recession has been OVER for almost three years.
      3. Pontiac’s following was LARGE.
      4. Pontiac’s following consists, for the most part, of “YOUNGER” persons with a musclecar/performance-car bent. These tend to be more passionate, on the whole, than Olds’ following, for example. When GM murdered Pontiac, the nature of Pontiac’s following is such that there was a VERY IMPETUOUS reaction. What I’m suggesting is that–due to the NATURE of the Pontiac brand, and the demographic of its customers–Pontiac is a PASSION, not just a typical car brand.
      5. My understanding is that GM has ALREADY lost approximately 45% of Pontiac’s customers to non-GM brands. I believe that a large portion of those defectors can be WON BACK if GM resurrects Pontiac. BUT: The longer GM takes, the MORE TIME those defectors have, to become enamored of the non-GM brands they’ve defected to.

      Pontiac has NON-PECUNIARY VALUE to GM. PontiacRulz and I are but TWO Pontiac loyalists who want the brand back in the worst way. Try googling “BRING BACK PONTIAC”, and see what you get. I would estimate that there must be THOUSANDS of Pontiac loyalists just like he and I, and God knows how many more in Canada, where Pontiac sold well. For GM, reviving Pontiac is more than just a cold, calculating business decision. It’s DAMAGE CONTROL/PUBLIC RELATIONS: Bringing back to the fold, Pontiac’s large following that was ANGERED by Pontiac’s murder. As alex mentioned in one of his posts, it’s a uber-competitive market out there. I would suggest that that cuts both ways: In such a business climate, GM cannot afford to alienate Pontiac’s legions of customers much longer. GM is NOT the only automaker in the world OR the U.S.

    • #38902
      RjION
      Participant

      For the most part GM has already alienated the Saturn and Pontiac legions. I’ll buy a GM car if they start treating people the way SATURN did in sales and evan more in the service dept. Would I like to see the Saturn and or Pontiac line-up again? Hell yes but like I said, “it’s not going to happen in my life time”.

    • #38904
      Lex
      Participant

      Moanalua, If Pontiac goes for BMW, Chevy would be the only mainstream brand out of 5 GM brands since the rummer is that GMC is moving upscale. No offence to Pontiac fans, but when you ask a foreign car driver about Pontiac, most of them reply that they can’t complete with Asian mainstream brands like Honda, Hyundai, etc. and yet you want Pontiac to compete with BMW (a luxury performance)? Also, how many Pontiac customers won’t buy another Pontiac just because GM killed it once? If GM to bring it back, some folks would think that GM could kill it again.

    • #38905
      Brian_E
      Participant

      I disagree that demand is the only thing required for GM to act on. But, I’ll go along with it for the purposes of this comment.

      GM will need hard numbers of potential buyers of Pontiac. In order to justify the demand, they need more than just fans, they need buyers. I would sincerely hope the loyalists number in the thousands. It better be closer to 500,000.

      If GM were to react to demand, they would need firm substantiated numbers of people meeting all of the following criteria:
      1. Pontiac fans (duh!) 😀
      2. Not willing to purchase any other GM product.
      If GM already builds something they will buy, there is no point in making a Pontiac.
      3. Willing to buy ANY Pontiac.
      I seriously doubt that a true fan is willing buy just any Pontiac. I also believe that it IS our job to tell them what car to build. How else will they know WHAT the demand is for. Again, for the sake of discussion, I will assume that they just want a red arrowhead.
      4. Financially able and likely to purchase at least one Pontiac vehicle within the first three years of its rebirth. GM isn’t going to just give everyone a Pontiac. They’re not Oprah.

      For the sake of discussion, lets just say there are 500,000 Pontiac fans. Let’s also say that 50% of those aren’t willing to purchase any other GM product – even though the studies and consumer reporting data says it’s lower. And also asume that they are will to buy ANY pontiac that rolls off the assembly line.
      That leaves you with 250,000. Of those, we’ll assume 80% are in a financial position to buy a new Pontiac within the next three years. Now we’re at 200,000. Spread that out over those three years and you have roughly 67,000 sales/yr.
      Is 67,000 cars/yr. enough to justify bringing the brand back?
      Wait, what about your everyday buyer who didn’t consider GM at all until seeing a new Pontiac? For gits and shiggles, let’s put that number at 67,000, too.
      Total projected yearly sales – 134,000.

      For comparison:
      Buick sold 177,633 vehicles in 2011.
      Cadillac sold 152,389.
      Chevrolet sold 1,775,812 (among those 415,130 Silverados, 231,732 Cruzes & 7,671 Volts)
      GMC sold 397,986
      (source: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/gm-finishes-2011-with-4-9-uptick-in-december-up-13-7-for-the-year/)

      Is that enough demand?
      BTW, that also assumes that GM has a crystal ball that told them exactly which cars to make (since it’s not our place to tell them which cars to build) so every one sells without a single one languishing on the car lot.

      If you think thats enough demand, then the next step is to start gathering the signatures.

    • #38908
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I don’t see why they don’t just make 3 or 4 Pontiacs……like a niche brand (Is that what it’s called?) They don’t have to make a whole lineup just like 3 or 4 vehicles for the Pontiac brand.

      Regarding a comment above, I am one of the people who only would buy a Pontiac. I was Pontiac loyal and that’s all I would buy. I dont care for the Chevy brand or Buick brand. I have tried to like Chevy and Buick enough to buy one but I just can’t. Pretty sure my next car will be a FORD! GM lost a 100% loyal Pontiac customer here and my F*ck you to GM will be when I buy a Ford!

    • #38910
      Moanalua
      Participant

      PontiacRulz: Good for you! THAT’S the spirit! The same goes for me. I DON’T WANT a Chevy. I DON’T WANT a Buick. In fact, I would want a Buick even less than I’d want a Chevy, because Buick survived AT PONTIAC’S EXPENSE. And I just LOVE your last sentence. Now THERE’S a FEISTY Pontiac loyalist! And, I think you’ve sent a VERY important message to GM.

    • #38911
      intrimazz
      Participant

      I loved my 2005 Pontiac Vibe – excellent car – trouble-free 6 yr ownership – still had that *new car smell* looked new – everyone loved it – versatile, fun to drive, great gas mileage, roomy and comfortable. Interior was well made and tho there was some plastic, it wasn’t garish nor cheap to the touch. Real soft cloth seats (none of this *synthetic cloth weave* that is found in so-called budget cars starting at $17k) Had a sliding power sunroof and power everything with cruise – in the 6 yrs we owned it, I still to this day don’t know what the engine looked like. Never had to pop the hood ONCE. I mourn it. Victim of hit n run while parked in front of my house on a Sunday night 2 weeks before Christmas – perp never caught. Vibe was totaled.

      Yes, they need to bring back the quality and the name Pontiac once again. I realize the insides were Toyota Matrix, but the rest of the design, esp the interior was distinctive and intuitive and as all cars should be, geared for the driver’s comfort and usability. The wind noise at highway speeds was virtually non-existent, the comfort all around superb, and there were zero internal rattles and noises – it was put together beautifully.

      Am in the process of shopping for a new car and am disheartened to find so many issues already with 2012 models as evidenced in forums around the web: transmissions, electrical troubles, quality control faults in builds that should never have been missed. It is a bad time to be shopping for a new car. 🙁

      I have test-driven a handful of cars and have not been fully happy. The worst interior was the Ford Fiesta and the most comfortable to drive was the Honda FIT but my husband said the rear seating was not comfortable at all during the ride and he is only 5’3. I want to buy American. Even if it is partially made here. My next test drive will be the Chevy Sonic LTZ and I want to like it so much, but it seems wrought with quality control issues right out of the gate as I wrote above. I wish i could wait for the Spring version of 6spd Turbo AT, but I need a car NOW and not one that will rack up the bulk of its miles to the dealer’s mechanic.

      I, too, am saddened and upset by Pontiac’s retirement. I am almost inclined to buy the Honda FIT out of spite, but I need to give the Sonic a chance in the test drive and ultimately, the final price the dealer will offer.

    • #38913
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @CuriousObserver

      “Pontiac was great in its heyday, but it is DEAD! Actually GM needs to think about axing GMC and positioning Buick to be the sport-luxury step up from Chevy. Chevrolet, like other competitors, will improve interior quality so you don’t need another redundant brand.”

      Not so fast in repositioning Buick. Most of the volume in the luxury market today lies in performance luxury (BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz) and soft luxury (Lexus). GM needs to have a soft lux competitor to take on the luxury sales leader of the United States for 9 out of the last 10 years — Lexus. And, as I’ve mentioned before, it will be Caddy that goes after performance luxury brands.

      No need to move Buick to a less-profitable area and devalue GM’s luxury proposition.

    • #38914
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I like that new Ford Focus Titanium a lot. It may be my next car. As I said, I’m just not into Chevy and Buick. GM murdered Pontiac and for that I won’t forgive them. Guess if I like this Focus as much as I think I will, I’ll be switching my loyalty over to Ford. GM can kiss my a** for their murder of Pontiac. It’s okay though, the blue oval was there to help me 🙂

    • #38916
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz You should drive a Cruze. Focus is a great car, but not as good as the Cruze when it comes to handling and driving engagement. Since you’re a Pontiac fan, I’d expect those two to be at the top of your priorities when looking for a new car.

    • #38917
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @intrimazz It seems that you’re in the market for a hatch. If so, the Sonic is a way, way, way better car than the Fit/Jazz… or anything else in its class — including the Fiesta and Nissan Versa.

      Sonic is safer, more fun to drive (and look at), and pretty much has best-in-class everything. It’s one thing to talk about cars here on the forum; but it’s something else to actually feel the car and drive it. The Sonic is one of those cars that needs to be driven for one to really understand how great it is — the chassis, suspension, and control.

      The only quality-control-related issues I’m aware of for the Sonic involves the brake pad mishap that only affected 10-12 cars. Not sure if there’s anything else…

      Other than that, I’d also look at the Cruze (if you’re open to sedans, that is) and Ford Focus hatch.

    • #38918
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I will try them both out but I’m pretty sure I’ll end up with the Focus. It just looks cooler to me. I don’t really care for any of their remaining brands. Pontiac was my car for life and I was brand loyal to it, now GM is kinda blah to me. Idk I kinda feel like….screw you GM for getting rid of Pontiac. They got rid of the brand that I liked and don’t seem to care very much. Now I’m liking the new Focus so why should I hesitate to buy one? They spent all these years getting people to like Pontiac, then get rid of it and leave all us Pontiac fans with our finger up our asses ignoring all of us now. Well screw you GM, I’m buying a FORD!

    • #38919
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Right. To me, the Focus’ styling (exterior and interior) doesn’t really jive. But that’s just me.

    • #38920
      Moanalua
      Participant

      PontiacRulz, I’d like to thank you for your posts. I’ve been on God knows how many Pontiac-related messageboards over the past two years or so, and I’ve yet to see someone who TELLS IT LIKE IT IS the way you do. Your posts have expressed the anger and frustration of all those Pontiac loyalists who are OUTRAGED by the brand’s murder. I kind of regret to see that you might soon be moving-on to Ford. As for me, I’m going to stay with Pontiac a little longer. To me, Pontiac is like an old friend, and it’s VERY difficult to LEAVE an old friend. And you’re right: After I’ve spent literally DECADES driving, supporting, and being loyal to the brand, GM just kicks Pontiac into the gutter and turns a deaf ear to the throngs of people clamoring for the brand’s return. I’m holding-out hope that GM just MIGHT decide to revive Pontiac. I know it’s just a hope, but like you said in a previous post: That’s all we’ve got for now.

    • #38921
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      So wait. @PontiacRulz you’re willing to get yourself a vehicle that is inferior to the Cruze in pretty much every way just to spite GM?

      Not sure how soon you’re looking to buy, but I’d stick around for the production of the 130R. I’ve got money on its production.

      Manoli wrote a great piece about why it will come to market on the GM Authority blog:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/take-it-from-a-millennial-build-the-chevy-code-130r-part-i/

      The 130 R is the introduction of the passion brand within Chevrolet. It’s as close as you get to Pontiac, but you ultimately get a better vehicle.

    • #38955
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      No I said if I like the Focus more after driving it then I’d buy it. The I added that the satisfaction of driving around in it knowing that I didnt buy another GM after what they did to Pontiac would be a bonus haha.

    • #38958
      William
      Participant

      I love Pontiac. I’m 25 and I’m a proudly driver of a 2007 Grand Prix GXP.
      so…

      If reborn, should Pontiac go global? I don’t think it should.

      GM needs a car to compete with the Dodge Charger since I don’t believe next Impala will be the one, maybe it will compete with the Taurus SHO.
      Then an all-new Grand Prix or G8 would do the job.

      Young guys have few options within the current GM lineup.
      They need Pontiac. We need Pontiac.
      Cars are getting boring.
      Bring PONTIAC back GM!

    • #38959
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @William: Perhaps it SHOULD go global, IF it could. The ONLY reason Buick survived is that it was a global brand. Pontiac was WHIPPING Buick here in the US.

      Regarding Dodge: Increasingly, I’m seeing Pontiac being compared to Dodge on other Pontiac-related message boards. You would think that Dodge–being Chrysler’s only mainstream brand–would target Chevy or Ford. Instead, it seems to be going after Pontiac’s demographic: Younger buyers looking for sporty vehicles. That gives GM another reason to revive Pontiac: To go after Dodge. Chevy targets Ford, Buick targets Lexus, and a revived Pontiac goes after Dodge.

      By the way, thank-you for joining the chorus of folks calling for Pontiac’s return!

    • #38960
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I don’t wan to drive a Chevy, I want to drive a PONTIAC!

    • #38961
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Good for you, PontiacRulz! I SECOND your motion.

    • #38965
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Dude I’m so sure my next car will be a Ford but IF I did buy a Chevy I’d take all the chevy logos off and replace them with Pontiac ones! Put a supercharger on that beast and hell I might even change the dash lighting to red like a true PONTIAC! WOOO!

    • #38966
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Why not a Cruze? Have you driven one?

    • #38967
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua

      “@William: Perhaps it SHOULD go global, IF it could. The ONLY reason Buick survived is that it was a global brand. Pontiac was WHIPPING Buick here in the US.”

      I don’t know why you keep coming back to this… the fact that Pontiac had 2-3x greater sales volume than Buick doesn’t mean a thing! An automaker can sell 100x what another brand/automaker sells, but not make 1) as much in profit or 2) not make any profit at all.

      Fact: Pontiac was a mainstream product.

      Fact: Pontiac had very low sales volume for a mainstream product.

      Fact: all mainstream automakers/brands earn narrow margins.

      Fact: Financially, Pontiac was not successful. Buick was and continues to be, even at a significantly lower sales volume, highly profitable.

      How many times does one have to repeat this?

    • #38968
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua

      “Regarding Dodge: Increasingly, I’m seeing Pontiac being compared to Dodge on other Pontiac-related message boards. You would think that Dodge–being Chrysler’s only mainstream brand–would target Chevy or Ford. Instead, it seems to be going after Pontiac’s demographic: Younger buyers looking for sporty vehicles. That gives GM another reason to revive Pontiac: To go after Dodge. Chevy targets Ford, Buick targets Lexus, and a revived Pontiac goes after Dodge.”

      Why can’t Chevy’s newly-found “Passion division” do what you’re describing?

    • #38969
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: The fact that Pontiac was whipping Buick in sales here in the US showed that there was much greater DEMAND for Pontiac here than there was for Buick. Why is THAT so difficult to comprehend? And Pontiac loyalists on other Pontiac message-boards are saying the same thing, and HAVE been saying it since Pontiac was murdered. Try visiting the “GM should bring back PONTIAC” thread on GMi. See the reception you’ll get when you make comments there that are similar to the ones you’re making on this thread.

      I’m a Pontiac loyalist. I don’t WANT a Chevy. For me, Pontiac will always be the REAL “Passion division.”

    • #38970
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      It’s not difficult to comprehend… it’s simply irrelevant.

      There’s always more demand of a product at a lower price point. It’s called mass-market appeal.

      No one cares about how many units a company sells of a certain product unless it’s profitable in doing so. There are some exceptions (loss-leader, etc.). But it usually doesn’t happen with mainstream cars.

      Again, it’s not about quantity. It’s about profitability. Pontiac, at the time it was “murdered” — made crap products with the exceptions of the G8 and Solstice. The rest of the lineup was pure garbage. Is this what you want brought back? Why is the quantity vs. profitability business fact so difficult to understand?

      As for “Pontiac loyalists” — no one is denying their existence… but their market will be served by a better product within Chevrolet. If you get a better product but can’t accept the badge, or when your ideology is overshadowing reality… then we have much bigger issues to discuss.

    • #38971
      Moanalua
      Participant

      CONSUMERS care. PONTIAC customers care. I think the REAL issue is this: IS there adequate demand (in the US and Canada combined) to make the return of Pontiac feasible? If there IS, then Pontiac should return. That’s Econ 100.

      By the way, I don’t think of Pontiac’s line-up at the time, as “garbage.” And there really are no other “issues”; “The customer is always right.” One person can’t dictate to another what his consumer preferences should be. That’s a matter of PERSONAL choice.

    • #38972
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Yes, consumers do care. And if a company can’t make a profit while serving them, that company will go out of business. Witness Old GM. How much will consumers care for a company that no longer exists? That dies serving them?

      Let’s face it — Pontiac was one of the reasons Old GM failed. So was Saturn.

      Can you honestly say that the G3, G5, Vibe, and Torrent were “good” cars? They were lame excuses for a modern-world vehicle. Let’s not even go there.

    • #38973
      Moanalua
      Participant

      I don’t mind going there. I would have been content with ALL of them: G3, G5, Vibe, AND Torrent.

      I was loyal to PONTIAC, NOT GM. If GM decides that Pontiac won’t return, then I will take my business to a non-GM automaker.

      IF Pontiac was “one of the reasons” that old GM failed, a revived Pontiac could shed whatever caused “old Pontiac” to be a hindrance. It’s not chiseled in stone somewhere, that a revived Pontiac has to make the same mistakes that it might have made before.

    • #38974
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      “I don’t mind going there. I would have been content with ALL of them: G3, G5, Vibe, AND Torrent.”

      Really? Are those the vehicles that make you a proud Pontiac owner? Because I would rather buy a Hyundai than drive either one of those lame excuses for a car.

      “I was loyal to PONTIAC, NOT GM. If GM decides that Pontiac won’t return, then I will take my business to a non-GM automaker.”

      This is where I think ideology is superseding reality for you. Are you saying that, with the exception of a Pontiac badge, if a Chevy (for instance) vehicle offers the looks, performance, and affordable price (all values of pioneered by Pontiac), you would go out and buy an inferior vehicle just to spite GM?

    • #38975
      Moanalua
      Participant

      That’s right; I’m proud of Pontiac. If you would rather have a Hyundai, that’s YOUR choice.

      Again, one person can’t dictate to another what his consumer preferences should be. YES: I DON’T want a Chevy; I don’t care WHAT it offers. Again: If GM won’t return Pontiac, I will take my business to a non-GM automaker. I will not patronize an automaker that murdered my favorite brand.

      Having said that, if GM DOES return Pontiac, I’ll stand beside GM once again.

    • #38976
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      To clarify: you’d be perfectly proud and happy to drive a G3 just because it has a Pontiac badge… correct?

    • #38977
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Correct.

    • #38978
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      I’m not going to dwell much on this as it is apparent your mind is set regardless of what facts or alternatives are presented to you.

      Still, I will ask a few questions.
      What makes up a Pontiac? Is its only requirement be that it has the name and Arrowhead? With your comments about the G3, G5, etc, that seems to be all that you care about: a name and a badge.

      What about the hardworking people that built the Pontiacs during its last years? Guess what, they’re putting that passion into building Chevrolets and Buicks (Maybe some Cadillacs). Don’t you care about those people who made your Pontiacs?

      What about the Engineering, Marketing, Logistics, etc support for Pontiac? Yet again, a large majority of those people are still with GM, and still working hard to bring an exciting vehicle to try to satisfy you. Don’t you care about them?

      What about the corporate management? As Alex has previously stated a few pages back, there were people for and against keeping Pontiac going. Unfortunately, those against were more persuasive. Does that make you care any less for those in management that fought for its survival?

      And lastly, have you given any thought to the previous suggestion for trying to bring the brand back? Based on the lack of feedback, and lack to any realistic effort on any other messageboard (bringbackpontiac, high performance pontiac, pontiac forever, etc.) I am guessing you’re not willing to make the effort. If the name is all you want, then do what PontiacRulz suggested. There are T/A conversions for Camaros available.

      At the end of the day a car is more than just a name. It embodies the vision of the designers, the ingenuity of the engineers, the craft of the PR, and the dedication of those in manufacturing. If you want to punish those people because their hard work isn’t emblazoned with P O N T I A C, then that’s your choice.
      As for me, I stand behind the people, because people is the most important P word in this conversation.

    • #38979
      Moanalua
      Participant

      I am loyal to the Pontiac brand. Yes, that red arrowhead means a lot to me. As for the folks who worked hard building Pontiacs, but are now building Buicks and Chevys, they’ll have to talk to GM’s front office about that. I wasn’t the one who murdered Pontiac.

      I certainly respect all the other folks at GM who work for that company in other capacities. Unfortunately, if they think they’re building the best vehicle they can for ME, they might as well not bother. The only new GM vehicle I’ll be purchasing is one offered by a revived Pontiac.

      As for those in management who wanted to keep Pontiac, I tip my hat to them. I certainly appreciate their stand. But the bottom line for me is (again): Unless Pontiac returns, I simply will not purchase a new GM vehicle.

      I will not purchase Trans Am conversion kits for Camaros. The only Trans Am I will own is an original, real Trans Am (and I own one right now).

      I have nothing against the hard-working people at GM who had nothing to do with the monstrous decision to murder Pontiac. The responsibility lies with those in power who actually DID murder it, and–more importantly–refuse to bring the brand back.

      And speaking of “standing behind people”: WHO is standing behind the thousands of people–in the US and Canada– who have been loyal customers of Pontiac for DECADES (such as I), and had the rug abruptly pulled from under them? Who speaks for THOSE people?

      And yes: My mind IS set. BUT If GM DOES decide to revive Pontiac, let me ASSURE you: I’ll be back at GM’s side, in a heartbeat.

    • #38980
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Pontiac forever no doubt but what I dont understand is..where is the Pontiac tab on this forum Alex? FordAuthority’s forum has a Mercury tab. You should def have a Pontiac tab for this GMAuthority forum. I’ll be starting Pontiac topics on here a lot so I think a Pontiac tab would be nice. We should have a vote or something… PONTIAC 4 LIFE! 😛

    • #38981
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz Not to worry; that Mercury navigation element is going away soon.

      As for a Pontiac one — there simply isn’t that much news surrounding the brand/topic at the moment… thus the reason for not having it. But you can always get to its equivalent here:
      http://www.gmauthority.com/blog/category/pontiac/

    • #38982
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I still think we should have a vote for a Pontiac forum tab. That would be awesome. Dude this bring Pontiac back discussion is easily the most popular topic in the forums, I think Pontiac deserves a place in the Forums. Especially since I’ll be bringing up Pontiac topics a lot. C’mon Alex DO IT DO IT DO IT! 😀

    • #38983
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Oh you mean in the Forum. I though you were referring to the blog. My mistake.

      Ask and you shall receive!

    • #38984
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Alex you are AWESOME dude! Thanks! 😀

    • #38985
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      You respect and appreciate all those people who had made a Pontiac possible for you, yet you intend to punish them now for something that is beyond their control. Your words ring hollow.

      I’ve provided alternatives and suggestions within this discussion for ways to convince GM to bring the brand back. Those ideas are a long shot, but they have more potential than repeating the same tired and disproven arguments. Actions speak louder than words and boycotting GM only drives that nail further into Pontiacs’ coffin and personally offends those who took pride in building the Pontiacs for you. I knew a few people who used to work at the Fairfax plant in Kansas City. That plant did build Grand Prix’s. Now the plant builds the Malibu and LaCrosse. If I were to tell those people that I respect and appreciate them, but that I wouldn’t even consider their vehicles, they would rightfully be quite upset at me and hurt by my actions.

      (It’s analogy time again)
      If someones’ spouse lost their wedding ring, it would be ignorant, selfish, and illogical to say: “I respect and appreciate you and everything you have done, but because you don’t have that ring on your finger, you cannot live in this house.” That’s what you’re doing when you boycott GM.

      What I’ve tried to explain is that GM is not a single person. A boycott only works to punish the many for the actions of a few. It hurts the people who made Pontiac possible the most. It also causes you to miss out on a vehicle made by those same fine people that had made your Pontiac. Frankly, taking brand loyalty to your extremes seems childish and immature to me.

    • #38987
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Moanalua just doesn’t want to give money to a company that murdered his favorite brand. Why should he buy a Chevrolet if he doesnt want one? Yea he’ll be supporting the people who built his Pontiac but he cant buy a Pontiac anymore. Why should he buy from a remaining brand if he doesnt like any of the remaining brands?

    • #38988
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      “Why should he buy from a remaining brand if he doesnt like any of the remaining brands?”

      Simple answer: because the products are better. Better quality, safety, interior, and driving dynamics.

    • #38989
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      That may be true but if I don’t care for Chevrolet as a brand I’m not going to buy one.

    • #38990
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Brian_E: As I said, you can tell your acqaintances to address their concerns to GM’s front office. I have no obligation to purchase any vehicle other than the one I wish to purchase. There’s nothing “childish” about it at all. In Economics, it’s called, “voting with your dollars.”

      I’ve expended a considerable amount of time and energy posting on this thread. As a consumer, I have a simple ultimatum to GM: Either return Pontiac, or I take my business to a non-GM automaker. In Economics, that’s known as consumer sovereignty. The customer is king. It’s really quite simple.

      I find it somewhat childish that a person would be passing judgement on another person’s consumer preferences and practices.


      @PontiacRulz
      : Thanks for your support. It seems that folks like you are pretty hard to find on this thread.

    • #38991
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @ PontiacRulz
      If Moanalua has taken an objective an unbiased look at GM vehicles and doesn’t like any of them, I can completely respect that. But that is not how I have understood his comments. He has said multiple times that he is boycotting GM because they ‘murdered’ Pontiac. To him it doesn’t matter what they offer, he will not even give them a chance. If they were to bring the Holden Commodore as a Chevy, he won’t buy it because it’s not Pontiac G8.
      He won’t buy a used Aveo because it’s not a G3. He won’t buy a Chevy Equinox because its not a Torrent, etc. He has a made it clear to me that the value of the name and arrowhead badge trumps all else. Performance, styling, quality, and supporting those american workers are pointless. His willingness to buy a G3, but not a Sonic, speaks to a logic that I honestly can’t follow.


      @Moanalua
      , I mean you no disrespect. I just simply cannot agree with your argument.
      If I’ve misstated any of your views, feel free to correct me.

      EDIT: @Moanalua, I didn’t see your last comment until after I posted this. I guess the childish comment was judgmental. You have my apologies for that statement.

    • #38992
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Brian_E: As I said earlier, it’s all about individual consumer preferences. You don’t HAVE to agree with my argument. And if you’ve misstated my views, that’s OK. You have no obligation to accept them. Again, it’s very simple: As a consumer, my position is that if GM doesn’t revive Pontiac, I will take my business to a non-GM automaker. Roughly 45% of Pontiac’s (former) customers already have.

      It’s not even necessarily about logic. It’s all about individual consumer preference. Another person’s preferences and practices don’t HAVE to be “logical” to you.

      EDIT: @Brian_E, no offense taken.

    • #38993
      Brian_E
      Participant

      Point taken. I guess it’s just the engineer in me trying to understand your choice in valuing the badge over the product.
      Call me Spock. :-))

    • #38994
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Well, Pontiac’s red arrowhead calls to mind all the great Pontiacs I’ve owned. Even my parents’ first new car was a Pontiac. Therefore, I grew-up with Pontiac. For me, Pontiac’s arrowhead overshadows the vehicle itself. I guess it’s the same as the American flag. That’s just a “badge” too, isn’t it? Yet, that flag MEANS a lot to Americans.

    • #38995
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I agree Moanalua. I am BRAND loyal to Pontiac. I feel GM is trying to tell us Pontiac loyalists to buy a Chevy or Buick and that’s bull crap. GM already had us as customers and murdered our brand. They just don’t seem to understand that we are brand loyal and we don’t want any stinkin Chevrolet or Buick. They can shove Chevy and Buick where the sun don’t shine cause I don’t want one of those, I want a Pontiac and if they don’t bring it back I will take my business elsewhere. GM doesn’t seem to understand what brand loyalty is. We are loyal to Pontiac and you arent going to herd us into a Chevrolet or Buick.

    • #38996
      Moanalua
      Participant

      PontiacRulz, again: Your posts are simply CLASSIC. I wish EVERY Pontiac loyalist were like you. For those who still haven’t caught-on, what if we said: “It’s a PONTIAC thing. You wouldn’t understand.”

    • #38997
      Brian_E
      Participant

      I also have some great Pontiac memories. In 1973, my dad bought the ’72 GP that became my first car. That was three years before I was born. I’m proud to say that I still have that car. I’m proud of their performance heritage and I love going to Pontiac themed car shows.

      Good comparison on the American flag. I can see similarities in my own viewpoint. Like America, I am glad to be a Pontiac owner and gladly profess the great things about the brand. But, I am also willing to confess where there have been shortcomings. I’m also willing to be loyal to the citizens of Pontiac, and stand beside them. The American flag has changed the number of stars, but it still stands for the same freedoms, rights and opportunities. The insignia has changed, but those same GM employees are still producing good quality performance, just with a different insignia. Still, I do see your disappointment with GM. I’m choosing to look past my own disappointment with Pontiac’s demise and focus on the future of affordable performance from GM. I choose to believe that the Pontiac spirit carries on through the GM employees and I won’t turn my back on them.

    • #38998
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz “GM doesn’t seem to understand what brand loyalty is. We are loyal to Pontiac and you arent going to herd us into a Chevrolet or Buick.”

      No one from GM, to my knowledge, has contributed to this discussion. So you don’t know and can’t comment with any kind of certainty what they do and/or do not understand. Let’s get that straight before you start a posse.


      @Moanalua
      Yeah. The G3 was certainly a Pontiac thing. Good one.

    • #38999
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Well, obviously the G3 was nothing to write home about. For sure, that would have been the last Pontiac model I would have purchased. How about this: Better the G3, than a SIMILAR model from a DIFFERENT brand.


      @Brian_E
      : Inadvertently, you’ve pointed-up why we shouldn’t even bother to rationalize other people’s consumer preferences: YOU can’t understand how PontiacRulz and I can be so loyal to a BRAND; HE AND I can’t understand how you could even CONSIDER another GM brand, given what you claim Pontiac has meant to you. In Economics, we say that each person has his or her own “utility function.” That’s why the old saying never GETS old: “To each, his own.”

    • #39000
      Brian_E
      Participant

      You guys and your late night conversations…. I gotta get up early in the morning.
      (where’s the yawning smiley.)

      EDIT: @Moanalua. Well said. For me, Pontiac is more than just a badge: It’s performance, it’s passion, and most importantly to me, it’s the people. The people are what made Pontiac great. Knudsen, DeLorean, Estes, Wangers, etc. PLUS every assembly line worker that built them. Pontiac people are still at GM and they’re still making cars – badge or not.

    • #39001
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua: “It’s not even necessarily about logic. It’s all about individual consumer preference. Another person’s preferences and practices don’t HAVE to be “logical” to you.”

      That doesn’t seem to be the case. It seems that you personally feel offended and, because of this, are willing to purchase what will most likely be an inferior product from the elsewhere. That’s not consumer preference… that’s deep-rooted hatred and contempt.

    • #39002
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Brian_E Good night, mate. Good talks. I don’t think we have a yawning smiley, though 😀


      @Moanalua
      I believe you’re one of the last who thinks about it that way. A G3 is an Aveo, fair and square. Either one you buy, you’re getting the econobox of econoboxes… same for the G5 and most G6 models sold, which were all too similar to the Malibu.

      It’s interesting to me that you, as a Pontiac fan, would even support this kind of badge engineering… although I do understand where you’re coming from in regards to brand. For me, it’s much more about the car than the badge.

    • #39003
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: That’s YOUR opinion. As I posted to Brian_E, it’s really not appropriate to pass judgement on other people’s consumer preferences and practices, is it? Yes, I AM offended that GM murdered Pontiac. Yes, I WOULD prefer to purchase an “inferior” vehicle from a non-GM automaker. In Economics, you’ve then gone on to make a “VALUE JUDGEMENT”: “That’s not consumer preference…that’s deep-rooted hatred and contempt.” In Economics, consumer preference is designed to take things like that into account. Consumer preference is an amalgam of ALL factors, of ANY and ALL kinds. We don’t pass judgement. It’s simply chalked-up to that person’s “utility function.”

      By the way, I wouldn’t say I have a “deep-rooted hatred” of GM. Contempt, perhaps.

      EDIT @alex: This post is in reference to the one BEFORE your last post.

    • #39004
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I was just on GM’s Facebook page and saw someone say they heard Pontiacs revival rumors, thats great! I have been hearing the same. I love how GM can’t seem to stop hearing about Pontiac, I hope it is getting to them lol

    • #39005
      Moanalua
      Participant

      PontiacRulz: Man, I hope those rumors are true! Keep us posted!

    • #39006
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      PontiacRulz, you’re chasing down a rumor and overhyping it. You’ve found a comment on GM’s FB page and are giving it far to much credit that it deserves.

      Rumors are best though of as fragments of dust that can be ignored until you have to sweep them away. Pontiac’s return is just such a dustbunny behind the GM sofa in the corner of a massive room called the auto industry.

      Nobody knows if there is any dust behind the GM sofa, and many people don’t care enough to look. And if there is, so what? Pontiac was such a crashing non-player in the auto industry. It didn’t scare any when Lutz said “America’s BMW”, and it’s going to be hard to make a business case for selling cars to the 20-something set who don’t have any money in the first place to buy performace cars.

      Performance itself is something that doesn’t rate very high on their list of demands anyway. Afordability, fuel efficiency , safety do.

      Guess which factors Pontiac didn’t have.

    • #39007
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: That doesn’t mean a REVIVED Pontiac CAN’T have them. GM can return Pontiac shorn of liabilities that “old Pontiac” had. This down-time is a perfect opportunity to re-invent Pontiac. I’ll go with any kind of revived Pontiac that GM sees fit to offer. It’s time for Pontiac’s next act.

    • #39008
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      And what, exactly, would a “revived” Pontiac offer?

      Mind you, a “revived pontiac” wouldn’t have anymore autonomy than what it had when it left. If you’re suggesting a “Pontiac only platform and RWD only”, then bringing the brand back is meaningless if it costs billions to do so and sells only to a few thousand every year.

      If that’s the case, Pontiac would be a returning cancer; another black hole in GM’s balance.

      So I’ll ask again, because a workable business plan is only a fraction of what it would take to bring Pontiac back:

      What would Pontiac offer to 20-somethings with limited disposable income that would appeal to their demographic’s demands of fuel effeiceny, affordability, and safety?

    • #39009
      Moanalua
      Participant

      I would be content to let GM come-up with the business plan. I’ve always felt that it would be a bit presumptuous of US to suggest a business plan to GM. GM would be in the best position to do that, given its in-house marketing division and bean-counters. For example, no one knows GM’s cost structure better than GM itself. As I’ve posted before, I really don’t care HOW Pontiac returns, as long as it DOES return. If you’ll google “Bring Back Pontiac”, you’ll see that there are an awful lot of people who want the brand back. You might want to visit some of the many websites you’ll find.

      Should Pontiac target twenty-somethings, or should it target THIRTY-somethings? As a demographic, the thirty-somethings have more disposable income, but are still young enough to want something sporty. Details like that, I’m willing to leave to GM. When it comes to Pontiac, I’m not picky. I simply want the brand back.

      Ask PontiacRulz about the strong demand for Pontiac, here and in Canada. I think GM should go for it, and I HOPE that GM goes for it.

    • #39010
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      I know Pontiac sold plenty in Canada. G3’s, G5’s, and SV6’s formed the core of their Canadian sales.

      Something that Chevy was already doing with it’s respective cars.

      Pontiac was nothing but another sales channel for the same things Chevy had. Solstice and G8’s didn’t make a dent in contrast to the aforementioned cars, so bringing them back “just because” would mean clones of whatever Chevrolet is selling.

      Also, the 30-somethings with disposable income are looking squarely at BMW (as expected).

      Furthermore, wishing it was so on the internet won’t make it so. You can wish for Pontiac as much as you want, but the fact is that wishes don’t exist and never have. There is only events of circumstance that are favourable and those that are unfavourable. No amount of braying on the internet will change this.

      Next question: What is something that would appeal to the 30-somethings that would make them choose a revived Pontiac against a BMW?

      I mean you and Rulz really want Pontiac back. So would a Pontiac Sonic or Orlando do the trick?

    • #39011
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      “Next question: What is something that would appeal to the 30-somethings that would make them choose a revived Pontiac against a BMW?”

      Bring back the fuc&ing Azteck! :))

      Sorry guys, couldn’t resist.

    • #39012
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Don’t listen to Grawdady he is just saying things based on what he thinks. Pontiac could come back and offer performance cars that are of course as best on fuel as they can be. If you think demand for performance vehicles isnt there than you live in a hole somewhere. It’s no secret that teens especially but people from all age groups like performance cars. Oh and regarding your statement about Pontiac being the “American BMW”, tell me the G8 wasnt awesome…go ahead and tell me it wasnt Grawdady because the G8 was amazing, it lived up to what a Pontiac should be and the best part about it was that it was AFFORDABLE performance like Pontiacs are supposed to be. The G8 was the type of car that Pontiac could be building today and should be building. I’d put that G8 up against a bimmer and I’ll bet you the G8 would win. Best part about the G8 was that te avergage person could afford it! It was awesome bro. It was PONTIAC!

    • #39013
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: There’s a thread I’d like to recommend to you. It’s “GM should bring back PONTIAC”, on GMi. That’s where the “heavy artillery” of Pontiac loyalists is. Don’t be surprised, though, if you’re asked to leave the thread.

    • #39014
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      “tell me the G8 wasnt awesome…go ahead and tell me it wasnt Grawdady because the G8 was amazing,”

      The G8 wasn’t amazing.

      The G8 was proof that even when you give into the public, not even a RWD V8 sedan could save a brand. Same deal with the Solstice.

      It shows that the G8 was nothing but an expensive risk that contributed nothing to the bottomline and sold poorly, no matter how GM tried to frame Pontiac as a “performance brand”.

      You’re being unrealistic if you think a brand that only survived as far as it did for the last 30 years from rebaded/rebodied cars can make a quantum shift into niche performance sales.

      Lets try another question, and don’t skirt around it.

      Say Pontiac was parred down to just the G8 and the Solstice and they sold 25K units total in one model year. Now with all the money Pontiac has earned, where do they spend it? The G8 or the Solstice?

      Compeating models from with GM and from other automakers have stepped up their game because they have more resouces, more engineers, more researchers, and more money. So what does Pontiac do with the limited pile of cash it has? The money will run out and eventually the G8 and Solstice won’t be compeditve anymore when demand dries up; no one is going to want to buy outdated piles.

    • #39015
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      GMI’s forums and their reactionary Pontiac fans are a lost cause. Them, like Rulz and yourself, are all screaming at the top of your lungs for an unworkable business plan that only made sense 30 years ago.

      If you’re unwilling to come to grips with the idea that not every teenager or 30-something wants RWD or V8’s, then you’re living in a bubble. Consumer demands have changed and the 80’s are dead.

    • #39016
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: Are you implying that a revived Pontiac division would be underfunded? Why? Why would Pontiac have only a “limited pile of cash”? If GM is going to revive Pontiac, I would think that they’d have a better business plan than that.

      The G8 compared favorably to BMW’s larger models, and COST a lot less. The G8 was the “poor man’s BMW,” and I have no problem with that. It served a niche in the market.

      Buyers like PontiacRulz and I don’t care how many “resources, engineers, researchers, and money” other GM brands have. If it’s not a Pontiac, we’re not buying. We’re going OUTSIDE of GM. Conversely–speaking just for myself–if GM DOES revive Pontiac, I won’t care how many resources, engineers, researchers, and money NON-GM brands may have; I’m buying Pontiac.

      Yes, the ’80s are dead. That’s not stopping a lot of people from clamoring for a new Trans Am, even though Pontiac was murdered almost three years ago, and the Trans Am was discontinued ten years ago.

      Regarding your post before this one: I again invite you to post on the “GM should bring back PONTIAC” thread on GMi. Go ahead and post that they’re “screaming reactionaries.”

    • #39017
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Grawdady, keep thinking what you want, your entitled to that. But you aint gonna make us me or Moanalua think like you do. Quit wasting your time. I hope you don’t think I care what your saying because I dont. You are saying things that YOU believe.

    • #39018
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @PontiacRulz

      “Don’t listen to Grawdady he is just saying things based on what he thinks.”

      ” You are saying things that YOU believe.”

      ENOUGH of this shit. Everyone here is saying what they believe and sharing in their points of view. It just so happens that your point of view is different… and you’re trying to resurrect something that should have gone away 10-15 years ago. Why are you telling people that they’re expressing their opinions? No shit they are! That’s what people do here.

      “The G8 was the type of car that Pontiac could be building today and should be building. I’d put that G8 up against a bimmer and I’ll bet you the G8 would win. Best part about the G8 was that te avergage person could afford it! It was awesome bro. It was PONTIAC!”

      No, it was a Holden. Pontiac didn’t have any unique models. Pontiac was nothing in the last 10-15 years of its existence. It was a just a badge. Nothing less, nothing more.

      “@Grawdaddy: There’s a thread I’d like to recommend to you. It’s “GM should bring back PONTIAC”, on GMi. That’s where the “heavy artillery” of Pontiac loyalists is. Don’t be surprised, though, if you’re asked to leave the thread.”

      What’s the point of discussion, then, if you’re asked to leave a thread?

      Do you want to live in a world where there are only like-minded people with no opposing/different points of view? Does everyone need to agree with your idiotic wish for an outdated brand that’s near and dear to your heart… but one that’s not realistic in today’s automotive market place? Get with reality, man. Not everyone will agree with you. But that’s what discussions like this are for!

      PS: to who ever runs GMAuthority: you did an outstanding job with the forum! It’s nothing like I’ve ever seen/used before. Very user friendly and polished.

    • #39019
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @wbodyfan: Discussion is one thing; rudeness is another. Read Brian_E’s posts. PontiacRulz and I rarely agree with him, but speaking just for myself, I don’t find his posts offensive. He conducts himself on-line like a gentleman. I don’t mind having discussions with him.

      Obviously, folks won’t always agree with each other. It’s HOW they choose to disagree, that’s instructive.

    • #39020
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Grawdaddy

      “Say Pontiac was parred down to just the G8 and the Solstice and they sold 25K units total in one model year. Now with all the money Pontiac has earned, where do they spend it? The G8 or the Solstice?”

      25,000 units a year is NOT going to work. This is why it’s near impossible to make a proper business case for Pontiac. @Moanalua This is reality. So unless Pontiacs carry a $5,000 premium per vehicle (which would make them less accessible and attractive) there is no business case for the brand.

      And to your question — if Pontiac were a “division”, then it would be responsible for its own Profit and Loss. And it will lose big time until it hits around 40,000-50,000 units a year.


      @PontiacRulz

      “If you think demand for performance vehicles isnt there than you live in a hole somewhere. It’s no secret that teens especially but people from all age groups like performance cars.”

      Like them? Sure! But buy them? Not really. Look at the numbers! Sports cars are the worst-performing/selling segment for any and all automakers, but cost the most to manufacture and develop, design, and engineer. They’re the least profitable type of vehicle. But the most fun… and have intangible benefits like being halo cars for the rest of the lineup.

      As an automotive enthusiast, I’m afraid that with time, we will live in a world that’s full of Camrys and Accords… devoid of fun-to-drive cars. I’m not even talking performance cars, but cars that are fun (like the Toyota GT-86 and Pontiac Solstice).

      That’s why I’m a proponent of the Passion department with Chevy. It would result in a number of fun mainstream cars that don’t break the bank and there won’t be the constant fear of always looking around your shoulder fearing that your favorite performance brand ate the dust.

      “I’d put that G8 up against a bimmer and I’ll bet you the G8 would win.”

      Win in what? Have you ever drive a BMW? If so, you would understand that it’s rarely about straight-line performance… or performance in the twisties, for that matter. It’s a pure athletic car with tons of luxury. The G8 was a great car, but it was no BMW. We already discussed this… why are we coming back to BMW again?

    • #39021
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      “Discussion is one thing; rudeness is another. Read Brian_E’s posts. PontiacRulz and I rarely agree with him, but speaking just for myself, I don’t find his posts offensive. He conducts himself on-line like a gentleman. I don’t mind having discussions with him.”

      Good for you guys. I’m NOT sorry that your feelings are hurt and you thought I was being rude. I don’t think I was being rude at all so you must have misinterpreted.

      What I do think is rude though is telling people not to “listen” to other members because they’re voicing their opinions… as @PontiacRulz did to @Grawdaddy. What’s the point of saying that? Of course we’re here to share our opinions. What else would we be dong here?

      In any event, I’m not here to talk feelings. That’s your prerogative and you seem to bring it up every now and again in this thread. I’m here to talk cars, pure and simple.

    • #39022
      Moanalua
      Participant

      I’m not sure how many times I’ll have to say it: PontiacRulz and I are NOT INTERESTED in other brands. (Well, at one point, PontiacRulz expressed interest in Ford. But THAT isn’t a GM brand). And speaking just for myself, I don’t care WHAT those other GM brands have to offer. If GM refuses to revive Pontiac, I will take my business to a non-GM automaker. It’s really just as simple as that.

      And if some of you are going to insist that there’s NO business model that would find Pontiac feasible, then you are going to have to tell a LOT more folks than just PontiacRulz and I. Lots of luck. You can start by googling “Bring Back Pontiac”, and then proceed to visit every website, message-board, and thread you find, and break the news. Tell me what happens.

      Meanwhile, I (and PontiacRulz as well, I’m sure) will keep pushing for Pontiac’s return.


      @wbodyfan
      : We can talk cars, but we can also talk with decorum. It’s not so much that our “feelings are hurt.” We understand that not everyone lands on the same side of the issue of whether Pontiac should return.

    • #39023
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Wbody: you have no basis for argument that the G8 was just a Holden because all the new Buick are nothing but Opels. So whatever. Pontiac is outdated and shouldnt be around? Bullsh*t! Thats your opinion on that. How is it not realistic in today’s world? Just build good affordable performace cars that arent rebadged! It’s so simple to make Pontiac cool and make it a viable brand again but all people want to say is that it’s not possible blah blah blah! That’s what YOU think!

    • #39024
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      Actually @Moanalua “we” won’t have to do any of that. “We’re” not on a crazy crusade like you are… but thanks for the invite.

      PS: sure, go ahead and take your business elsewhere. And get yourself an inferior car. I was a Toyota guy before seeing the light about 10 years ago. Now I own a 2011 Camaro and my wife has a 2012 Equinox. I dare you to find better products “elsewhere” — ones that look, drive, handle, or have as much (useful) technology for the value delivered by Chevy (or even the new Caddy). Dare you!

    • #39025
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      I can’t shake your hand, Alex, but I can thank you.

      The Corvette sells around 40K units a year (or at least the C6 did when new before 2008), and that’s without ads and paying for it’s parts that aren’t shared. The base C6 starts at 49K USD, and I very much doubt anyone would buy a base G8 if it cost that much, and that’s just to break even each year.

      Cold, hard, ugly, sales numbers.

      Although the G8 never sold as much and sold for thousands less than the C6, it was from a brand that, for the better part of 30 years, was directionless. If directionless is too hard a word, then the people in charge of Pontiac failed to consider the shift in consumer demands in much the same way Olds suffered.

      Not everyone wants to hang the rear end out while the slide down the on-ramp, and those numbers are only decreasing every day. Sure it’s fun, but it costs an automaker more to make a car do that and to make us want it.

      If an automaker is going to be conservative with their money, they’re going to chase after the boring, but highly sable and predictable compact and midsize segments. They know cars in those segments sell and sell damn well every year.

      A sports car, or a sporty car, is a luxury; it’s not something that’s nessisary for the car to operate. Luxuries like having a sporty car, like a G8 GXP, are luxuries that only a handful of people can afford, and that’s ONLY if demand for them great enough.

      Don’t forget the aforementioned 5-series. Sure the G8 cut it’s legs off, but even in 2009, the G8’s best year, the 5 sold more wagon 5’s than all the G8’s. Yes, the 5 is sold globally, but even in the US, the 5 simply outstipped the G8.

      That’s right, even if the G8 cost less than the 5 and outpreformed it, people were still buying the 5 in droves. The G8 was powerless to stop it and it couldn’t save Pontiac.

    • #39026
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @PontiacRulz (by the way, that’s how you address someone here, with an @ sign before their name).

      You should re-check your facts. For starters, the LaCrosse and Enclave are Buicks (and not Opels). Additionally, the new Encore was developed in the United States… by a U.S. team of designers and engineers. It just so happens that Buick and Opel are undergoing a brand alignment of sorts. A Buick in the U.S. will be an Opel elsewhere.

      Anyway, none of that matters. The fact is that Buick=Opel:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/06/buick-to-love-opel-back-both-to-share-next-generation-enclave-lacrosse/

      Got it? Buick = Opel. The two will be aligned around the world starting with the Regal/Insignia, Verano/Astra, and Encore/Mokka. It’s different brands making the same products for a global audience with similar values and interests.

      “Thats your opinion on that.”

      Here we go… again with the “your opinion” bullshit. Well, buddy, that’s your opinion that it’s my opinion! What the hell does that even mean? Why waste space and bits writing that kind of garbage?

      “Just build good affordable performace cars that arent rebadged! It’s so simple to make Pontiac cool and make it a viable brand again but all people want to say is that it’s not possible blah blah blah! That’s what YOU think!”

      This is why you’re not in charge of a business. And until you understand the reason to what you stated above, you never will be in charge of much.

      Me? I’ve run 14 businesses and sold 10 of them… and am in the process of doing so with the 11th. No offense (in case @Moanalua gets his panties in a bunch again about feelings), but you seem pretty young and immature (from a business perspective). Do some reading, keep up with the business side of your education, understand numbers, consumer behavior, statistics… Then you’ll really be able to have a grasp on the situation at hand and we can have a proper discussion. Until then, this is useless.

    • #39027
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @wbodyfan: My next new vehicle doesn’t have to be “perfect.” Last I checked, there’s no such vehicle. So: Chevy is superior to Toyota? That’s a pretty bold statement. I’m not saying that Chevy is a poor brand, and I’m certainly not trying to carry Toyota’s water. It’s just that Toyota has set the standard for so long.

      For the umpteenth time: If GM revives Pontiac, my next new vehicle will BE a Pontiac. If GM DOESN’T revive Pontiac, my next new vehicle will be a non-GM brand.

      Don’t worry; my “panties aren’t in a bunch.” (And I suppose that passes for a decorous comment). I’m glad you have a firm, experienced grasp on consumer behavior. That means you understand that different consumers have different priorities and preferences. I guess that’s why I would settle for an “inferior” vehicle rather than purchase one from the company that killed my favorite brand.

    • #39028
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      “Just build good affordable performace cars that arent rebadged! It’s so simple to make Pontiac cool and make it a viable brand again but all people want to say is that it’s not possible”

      Well it isn’t. Rebadging/platform sharing is here to stay for ALL automakers, forever. It isn’t going to go away overnight because it conflicts with your worldview that involves bringing Pontiac back.

      As for being affordable performance, the only way that’s going to work is hotted-up version of existing cars, specifically compacts as they would sell in larger numbers that could guarantee an ROI.

      It worked with the Cobalt SS, but it could only work after GM sold tens of thousands of LT’s, LT’s, and LTZ’s.

    • #39029
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      “For the umpteenth time: If GM revives Pontiac, my next new vehicle will BE a Pontiac. If GM DOESN’T revive Pontiac, my next new vehicle will be a non-GM brand.”

      So if I say “Presenting the new 2013 Pontiac Sonic 5dr, shown here in Torch Red and availabe with a 6sp”, you’ll hand over 24K immedately solely on the basis of it having a Pontiac front fascia?

    • #39030
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @moanalua “My next new vehicle doesn’t have to be “perfect.” Last I checked, there’s no such vehicle. So: Chevy is superior to Toyota? That’s a pretty bold statement. I’m not saying that Chevy is a poor brand, and I’m certainly not trying to carry Toyota’s water. It’s just that Toyota has set the standard for so long.”

      Sure it doesn’t have to be perfect. But are you really going to sacrifice the quality of the car you drive for the sake of some worldview? Are you really going to invest in an inferior car because of a philosophy?

      For the most part, Chevy vehicles are better than Toyotas. In 2010, after selling a business of mine, I had the opportunity to take a year and a half off. I decided to take the time off… and mostly drove cars for fun. I think I drove at least half of all cars made today. But mostly, I drove Chevys, Toyotas, Nissans, and Fords. I made a deal with a few local dealerships to drive their cars, two each day sometimes, and compensated them for it.

      My result: Chevys look (subjective), drive, and handle better than comparable Toyotas and Hondas. They have better technology. They are more safe. You have to drive them back to back to understand this and see it for yourself.

      Chevy has more “life” to it – for me. It’s not soul-less, like Toyota and Honda are. Once Chevy gets the new Impala, new Silverados, new Colorado, and a couple more crossovers – all of which are on their way according to the GMA blog, they will have a better lineup than Toyota through and through. Yes, better. Period.

      Just so you understand where I’m coming from (and I don’t mean to come across as a show off), before I embarked on this experiment, I drove a Porsche 911 Turbo S. I could have bought myself five loaded Camaro SSes for the amount I paid for that car. But I got a Chevy Camaro.

    • #39031
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: Well, I’d have to see what other models the new Pontiac would have to offer. I’m quite sure my next new vehicle would be a Pontiac, but I’m not sure which MODEL it would be.


      @wbodyfan
      : Well, I certainly respect your experiment. And as an American, I’m glad that you’ve found Chevy superior to Toyota. If Pontiac isn’t revived (and I therefore purchase outside of GM), I probably wouldn’t purchase a Toyota anyway. It would probably be an American brand; perhaps a Dodge or a Ford. (That’s despite the fact that Chrysler is being run by Fiat). My decision to reject GM isn’t so much about a worldview or a philosophy. As a consumer, I’m simply “voting with my dollars,” registering my displeasure with GM for murdering my favorite brand.

    • #39032
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Wbody: (yea thats right, I said WBODY: ) you arent going to tell me how to do things, I’ll use whatever key I want to use and you don’t have to like it, I dont care. I don’t care how many businesses you’ve ran (so you say). I really REALLY DONT CARE! You say Pontiac isnt viable and I say it is, we will have to agree to disagree. K thanks.

    • #39033
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      P.S. Wbody: These new Fords are just as good if not better than the “new GM” Chevys. So Don’t think you are high and mighty with the best vehicle driving a freaking Chevrolet.

    • #39034
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      “Wbody: (yea thats right, I said WBODY: ) you arent going to tell me how to do things, I’ll use whatever key I want to use and you don’t have to like it, I dont care. I don’t care how many businesses you’ve ran (so you say). I really REALLY DONT CARE! You say Pontiac isnt viable and I say it is, we will have to agree to disagree. K thanks.”

      The true answer of a loser. That’s how someone replies when you know you’re not man enough to take it.

      I couldn’t care less if you heed my advice or not. Or if you believe what I say. I have a $50,000 Camaro SS outside that I own fair and square. You have a Pontiac with 200,000 miles on it that wouldn’t get $5,000 at 9:00 pm on December 31 at the dealer.

    • #39035
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      “P.S. Wbody: These new Fords are just as good if not better than the “new GM” Chevys. So Don’t think you are high and mighty with the best vehicle driving a freaking Chevrolet.”

      Don’t pretend you’ve driven any of them.

    • #39037
      Lex
      Participant

      PontiacRulz just get a Camaro, get a firebird kit, install it and kaching! you got yourself a Pontiac!

    • #39038
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Thanks, Lex. That may be what I do.

      Wbody: Keep thinking you have the best brand in your Chevrolet, Ford is just as good now whether you want to belive it or not douche bag. Heck I’d even put the new Hyundais up to your freaking Chevrolet. One thing that wont change though is that Pontiac will always be a cooler brand than your Chevrolet whether it’s around or not. And I want you to remember that.

    • #39039
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      What you don’t realize is that I chose the Camaro after owning a 911 for two years. Unlike you, I buy my cars based on the car, not the badge.

      You, on the other hand, haven’t driven any of the vehicles we’re discussing here and are talking out of your arse. Good going, bud. I’d love to shake your hand one day.

    • #39040
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      No shaking of the hands necessary, I’ll just buy a new Mustang and blow your camaros doors off! haha

    • #39041
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @wbodyfan: If I may interject here, you said in a previous post that you have a firm grasp of consumer behavior. It just so happens that PontiacRulz and I do, indeed, purchase cars based on the badge. That’s OUR consumer behavior. You, on the other hand, purchase cars based on the car itself. That’s YOUR consumer behavior, and I respect it. Couldn’t you respect PontiacRulz’s and my position?

    • #39042
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @Moanalua Did I say that? I believe I was suggesting @PontiacRulz get schooled in the matter, but not by me. I’m just a lucky entrepreneur who happens to understand and know just enough to be dangerous. My firm(s) have much more knowledgeable people than me doing that kind of stuff…

      Regardless, the consumer behavior exemplified by your two is rare. If not rare, close to it. Sure, it’s behavior. Everyone behaves differently. But when we talk about consumer behavior, the goal is to understand how certain demographics think and act. Unfortunately, your demographic doesn’t seem to be important, meaningful, or “powerful”. Nothing personal, just calling it how it is.

    • #39043
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      It’s called brand loyalty, a lot of people are like that. It’s not something new.

    • #39044
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @wbodyfan: I can ASSURE you, brand loyalty is FAR from rare, ESPECIALLY when it comes to cars. Again, let me invite you to google “Bring Back Pontiac”, visit all the websites listed–there are SO MANY, you might not have enough time– (message-boards and threads, too, and some of the threads have HUNDREDS of posts), and then tell us how rarely you came across brand loyalty.

    • #39045
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      You’re right, brand loyalty is not rare. But brand loyalty taken to the extreme is.

    • #39046
      Moanalua
      Participant

      OK: Count how many “extremists” there are on all those threads, message-boards, and websites, and let’s see how small the number is.

    • #39047
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      However many it is, it’s still not enough to sell more than 20-30 thousand cars a year.

    • #39048
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Not true at all.

    • #39049
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      Since there’s significant repetition – I reiterate:

      Chevy runs deep – however, to me, Pontiac runs deeper – I too will not be buying GM until it returns – it’s Ford or Jeep for me, for now.

      As far as the business case – one could certainly argue GMC is a Chevy clone and Buick is a rebadged Caprice – so why not have just one division ??

      Fact is Audi, KIA, Hyundai, Fiat, Scion, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Volvo, and others produce cars that undersold Pontiac for most if not all their history – and for which Honda and Toyota could have easily produced to meet these needs – but these companies fight on.

      The business case for Pontiac was well established prior to BO’s intervention – it was to have been a niche brand and would have survived with quality, desirable, economical & performance vehicles. G8, G6, Vibe and Solstice were proof of that.

      Few cars have the brand loyalty of Pontiac. Their own magazine, numerous national events, manufacturers of parts (including complete new engines !) are unrivaled by all but Chevy.

      The business case is in the eye of the beholder.

      De-unionize. Wages and benefits on par with the foreign badges.

      Move south, get great tax advantages.

      Do what Capitalism does best – separate people from their money (voluntarily) and leave them feeling happy about it.

      Elect Republicans such that companies can start making decisions in their interest and not in the interest of bloated unions and other special interest groups – that ultimately force what has happened here.

    • #39050
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      “Not true at all.”

      Witness an opinion with unfounded facts! No matter what reality says, it’s still “not true” and “all lies” according to @PontiacRulz. My work is done here.

    • #39051
      RjION
      Participant

      Opel may be cool to some in the US…. Never once did the car brand do anything for me starting with the Kadett and GT from back in the 60’s. Take the Saturn Astra and you’ll see most Americans didn’t think much of that with only 12K getting shipped to North America. Read the Astra threads @ Saturn Fans and you’ll see all the halfwits that have convinced themselves that the Saturn Astra is a marvel of German engineering. I drove one as my demo for a few months, and thought the car was a huge turd.

    • #39052
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      The Astra was/is no more of a “turd” than a comparable Golf. I almost bought a 2010 XR before someone beat me to it. The car looked great and drove like a champ with crisp and precise handling. It was no 0-60 thrasher and no muscle car… but it was never supposed to be one.

    • #39053
      RjION
      Participant

      Well maybe you liked it but we could not give them away. Nine out of Ten guests that looked at the car bought something else. Thats saying alot from a Saturn retaiIer that stayed in the top three for new car sales in the region the entire time it was open. It has no power, no armrest, no console, no cupholds. It does have right hand drive hvac placement. They do tend to grind coffee going into reverse. The dic looks like ms.dos. The 14to1 steering rack is real nice seeing most compact cars are in the 16 to 1 range. Gas mileage is nothing to write home about with that 1.8L engine, nor is a hatchback that the opening is to small to get anything into. Yep it’s a great looking little car that would be fun to run on an auto cross but most buyers were looking for a daily commuter that would haul large items home from SEARS. Base price for the Astra XR 3dr was $19,115 in 2008 while the base price for the 2007 ION-3 quad coupe was $16,000 and people could buy the ION-2 quad coupe starting at $13,300. The ION sedans were cheaper yet. A supercharged 2.0L ION Redline started at $19,900. GM knew Saturn was going away long before the Astra got here so they didn’t ready it for the US market and the sales prove it.

      http://autos.nytimes.com/2007/Saturn/Ion/281/3252/282645/researchOverview.aspx

      PS: A good used car it may be.

    • #39054
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Yes, it didn’t sell well because of its high price… It should have started in the $15,000-16,000 range. And the various quircks you mentioned didn’t help it either, although I bet some saw them as European “features”. Nevertheless, it was in no way a “turd” of a car from a “car” perspective (not a sales perspective)… Even though it sold in low volumes for you.

    • #39055
      Brian_E
      Participant

      Wow! You miss one day and the thread grows 2 pages. :-))

      A lot of back and forth on opinions. We all heard the expression about them and a**holes, but I think opinions are more like farts:

      Some people try to keep them to themselves.
      Some release them hoping not to create a big stink.
      Others use them as weapons.
      And others try to opine, strain, and crap themselves instead. 😉

      Then again, thats just my opinion on opinions…

    • #39056
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Brian_E But don’t tell @PontiacRulz… otherwise you’ll get blamed for stating an opinion! 😉

    • #39057
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @gcmeninsr: “The business case for Pontiac was well established prior to BO’s intervention – it was to have been a niche brand and would have survived with quality, desirable, economical & performance vehicles. G8, G6, Vibe and Solstice were proof of that.”

      BAH! Contradiction in terms! You’re forgetting the Torrent, the SV6, the G5 and the G3, cars that I’m sure you’re deliberatley leaving out because those cars were closer to the core of Pontiac sales than you’re willing to admit.

      Who, apart from Rulz, would think that the G3, SV6, G6, G5, Grand Prix, Torrent, or Vibe were “desireable”? They never were; they were cars that were the complete ANTITHESIS to desireable. The same goes for thinking that they were performance cars.

      As for the business case, it wasn’t workable to hang everything on identical cars Chevy sold with a weak and lackluster “performance theme”. You can’t realistically think that young people (who were targeted by Pontiac) would place performance above fuel economy IN THE FACE of rising fuel costs.

      The days of affordable performance are from one source are gone forever. The only way to get it is to do like the Cobalt/Civic/Golf way and sell loads of garden varriety cars before offering hi-po versions.

      That’s what Pontiac was as it decayed for the last 25 years, a “performance themed brand”. Even when it tried to deliver on that, the G8 was far outside the reach of young buyers, and could even save the brand when it was pitched at wealthier 30-somethings.

      And to top it all off, it’s all Obama’s fault. Sure, that’s beliveable. Yeah, blame him when good fuel economy and reliablity STILL rate above performance in a mainstream brand.

    • #39058
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Well, no matter what our political opinions about Obama may be, let’s face it: He saved GM. And now that he saved GM, I would like GM to save (or, revive) Pontiac.

      For those who would mock Pontiac’s last offerings: They were no worse than Chevy’s. The only Pontiac I’m kind of embarassed about is the G3, though I’d rather have the G3 than its Chevy cousin, the Aveo. And, my embarassment stems from the G3’s LOOKS, nothing else.

      Didn’t we spend several posts on brand loyalty? Can’t we understand that Pontiac loyalists want a PONTIAC and not a Chevy, REGARDLESS of whether they’re badge-engineered versions of each other?

    • #39059
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      “Can’t we understand that Pontiac loyalists want a PONTIAC and not a Chevy, REGARDLESS of whether they’re badge-engineered versions of each other?”

      Then you should take the keys of a used G3 and be happy that you are truly are driving the very best the world has to offer: a Pontiac, through and through from bumper to bumper.

    • #39060
      Moanalua
      Participant

      As I said in a previous post, the G3 would be the LAST Pontiac model I would purchase. And obviously, it’s an Aveo clone; I wasn’t attempting to deny that. But it STILL IS CONSIDERED a Pontiac. It’s a Pontiac G3, not a Chevrolet G3. And equally as obvious, neither the G3 nor the Aveo is “the very best the world has to offer.” Where in my post was I trying to suggest that they were world-class?

    • #39061
      RjION
      Participant

      “Yes, it didn’t sell well because of its high price… It should have started in the $15,000-16,000 range. And the various quircks you mentioned didn’t help it either, although I bet some saw them as European “features”. Nevertheless, it was in no way a “turd” of a car from a “car” perspective (not a sales perspective)… Even though it sold in low volumes for you.”

      It didn’t sell for anyone in North America ie “turd”
      Didn’t have an aux input for sound system ie “turd”
      No hp ie “turd”
      No torque ie “turd”
      No usefull front cupholders ie “turd”
      No console ie “turd”
      No armrest ie “turd”
      and so on and so on.

      The car is a “turd” … Not a hunk of chit, a turd.

    • #39062
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I never stated I liked the G3, G5 or torrent. I didn’t like any of them because they were all rebadged Chevys. All I stated was that Pontiac has a lot of potential if it wasn’t plagued with rebadges and it made real Pontiacs by sticking to what a Pontiac is supposed to be. I see that nobody here on this site seems to really agree with Pontiac coming back or its potential so I will just leave the topic alone on here. It was fun debating though. I’m glad I got to show my Pontiac pride on here and thanks everyone for making this the most popular topic in the forums. RIP Pontiac, you had a good run and will be missed by me and many others.

    • #39063
      Moanalua
      Participant

      PontiacRulz, don’t forget me! I DO agree that Pontiac should come back, and I DO believe in the brand’s potential! And I REFUSE to say “R.I.P.” to Pontiac. I plan to CONTINUE pushing for its return.

    • #39064
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I didn’t forget about you Moanalua! 🙂 I just don’t see this debate going much further. I’ve said all I’ve had to say about the topic and I think everyone else has made their points like I have. If you want to continue the conversation you can go right ahead. Thanks for backing me up in this debate Moanalua, us Pontiac fans are a loyal bunch it seems. But as far as this forum debate goes, I think everything that can be said has been said.

    • #39065
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Thanks for YOUR support, too, PontiacRulz. The fight to bring Pontiac back MUST continue, if not on this thread and/or message-board, then on others.

    • #39066
      CorvetteDon
      Participant

      Pontiac should be resurrected as specialty performance division. Solstice GXP, G6 GXP Hardtop Convertible, G8 GXP Coupe, Trans-AM. Some of my best cars are Pontiacs!

    • #39067
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Right on, CorvetteDon. Welcome to the thread. Nice to have another Pontiac supporter.

    • #39068
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      For the record, there were more Acura RL’s sold last month than there are people who care about the return of Pontiac.

    • #39071
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy. Not true! That’s only your opinion! And that doesn’t matter! And Pontiac is like awesome… dude! :))

    • #39072
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: And how many people care about the return of Pontiac?

    • #39073
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      I’m willing to bet that there are less than 10,000 people who genuinely care the way you do, @Moanalua. As in I’m willing to put real, hard dollars (or even Euros) on it. But since it would be very difficult to correctly quantify this, all bets are off.

      Face it, most people ended up with a Pontiac not because they loved the brand, but because it was cheaper than a Chevy/Ford/Hyundai/Kia/Dodge/Chrysler/Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Suzuki/etc.

    • #39074
      RjION
      Participant

      You put money on 10,000 people wanting Pontiacs back. I’ll just stop coming to this site ………. The Pontiac sites I go to are not as childish & asinine as this thread.

    • #39075
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @RJION That’s your choice, of course. But I just don’t visit this thread that often. The stuff that the guys put up on the blog is second to none. That’s why I come here.

    • #39076
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @wbodyfan: That’s why I was interested in your figures. It IS difficult to quantify. I’d like to get some idea myself. I like your 10,000 estimate. Obviously, I hope that there are more, but I like that figure for starters.

    • #39077
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      BTW: Acura RL sales figures for January 2012 can be found here:

      http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6490-en

      I don’t think I’m too far off correctly guessing the membership figures for the “Bring back Pontiac” support group.

      😉

    • #39078
      Moanalua
      Participant

      You never GAVE a figure. wbodyfan said (about) 10,000. What is YOUR figure?

    • #39079
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      I don’t have to give a figure; I’m not obligated to do so. I all I’ve shown is American Honda’s January sales sheet and that you’re too lazy to read it.

    • #39081
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: The reason I asked is that you claim, “there were more Acura RLs sold last month than there are people who care about the return of Pontiac.” I’m one of those people. So: How can you make that claim, unless you know how many people care about the return of Pontiac?

    • #39082
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      I can make that claim becasue I do know how many people bought RL’s last month.

      Not only were they willing to drop more money than the average Pontiac mourner, but they also bought a better built car than any Pontiac.

    • #39084
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: You know how many people bought RLs last month, but how many people care about the return of Pontiac?

      Also, wbodyfan said Chevys are better-built than Toyotas. Since Pontiac and Chevy were sister divisions of the same company (GM), I have to assume that Pontiacs were just about as well-built as Chevys. So, by saying that Hondas are better-built than Pontiacs, you’re saying that Hondas are also better-built than Chevys and Toyotas. Correct?

    • #39087
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @RJION:

      “It didn’t sell for anyone in North America ie “turd”
      – Sales numbers don’t tell the whole story; the G8 was a great car — that sold even less than the Astra in the U.S.

      Didn’t have an aux input for sound system ie “turd”
      – Agreed

      No hp ie “turd”
      – Economy car — see Cruze

      No torque ie “turd”
      – Economy car — see Cruze

      No usefull front cupholders ie “turd”
      – Really? Cupholders? Not sure when the last time was that I needed those…

      No console ie “turd”
      – Console for what purpose?

      No armrest ie “turd”
      – I think it did have an armrest… you could flip it back and forth…

      and so on and so on…”

      Again, the Astra had its various quirks, but it was a good car that handled like a champ and was very fun to drive, but by no means a “turd”. Want to see a turd? Check out the Dodge Caliber, Toyota Corolla, or Pontiac G3.

    • #39089
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      Pontiacs and Hondas OF THE TIME?

      Yes, Honda lorded over Pontiac in terms of build quality.

      Don’t try to be ‘smart’ by dragging Toyota and Chevrolet into this. This is an ‘on the lot’ compairson.

    • #39090
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: The reason I’m “dragging Toyota and Chevrolet into this” is that a claim was made by wbodyfan that Chevy is better than Toyota. By extension of logic, you’re saying (via an earlier post) that Honda is better than both. As an American, I was glad to hear that Chevy is better than Toyota, but now you’ve said (again, by extension of logic) that Honda is better than Chevy. Who’s being “smart”?

      If you’re talking of Pontiacs and Hondas of the time, I would have thought to concede that Hondas would have been better-built. But if–as wbodyfan maintains–Chevy is better than Toyota, (and if we assume that Pontiac and Chevy–as sister divisions of GM–shared roughy similar build quality), I suppose it would depend on how much better Chevy has become over the three years that Pontiac has been gone.

    • #39092
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      Again, there’s no need to be smart by “logically extending” this matter. In doing so, you’re trying to blurr me and Wbody’s post into something that wasn’t even asked and giving unsubstantive answers.

      Allow me to re-set the stage in hopes that you don’t defer from my initial post:



      It’s 2008. You have the money and you need a car. You’ve boiled everything down to offerings from Pontiac and Honda. No exception from ANY other brand, past or present. The can only be compaired on what they offer in a segment.

      So what would you pick? Where would the smart money go?

      G3 or Fit?
      G5 or Civic?
      G6 or Accord?
      Torrent or CRV?
      SV6 or Odyssey?

      No Element, no Ridgeline, no G8, no Solstice, no Vibe. An even, level, surface. No Toyota, no Chevrolet. Only relevant cars to 2 brands.



      Furthermore, I couldn’t care less when you casually drop expressions such as this into a sentence:

      “By extension of logic, you’re saying (via an earlier post) that Honda is better than both. As an American, I was glad to hear that Chevy is better than Toyota, but now you’ve said (again, by extension of logic) that Honda is better than Chevy. Who’s being “smart”?”

      Such statements have absolutely no bearing on this matter whatsoever and are not admissable in this dicussion. Your nationality, something you had no control over at birth, does not lend credience or weight to your argument in this discussion.

      Your understanding of “logical extentions” are hazy and impercise. It’s not at the heart of this matter and won’t be considered either.

      Use subjectivity, not objectivity, to reach your conculsion.

      Thank you.

    • #39093
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: In each instance you mentioned, I would select the Pontiac over the Honda.

      Who’s “blurring lines”? You said earlier that Hondas were better-built than Pontiacs. wbody said Chevys are better-built than Toyotas. I assumed that as sister divisions, Chevy and Pontiac probably had roughly the same build quality. IF I’m correct, then what? You’re saying that Hondas are better-built than Chevys and Toyotas as well. Why does this have “no bearing on the matter”? You generated the posts that brought this about.

    • #39094
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      “IF I’m correct, then what? You’re saying that Hondas are better-built than Chevys and Toyotas as well. Why does this have “no bearing on the matter”?”

      What has “no bearing on the matter”, if you had even bothered to read what I typed, is you announcing that that you were an American, and that it was somehow directly related to the precived quality differences between Toyota and Chevrolet. My concern was that you would attempt to incorporate the fact that you are an American into my hypothetical situation to avoid making a subjective judgment and relying on inferior objective judgments.

      The fact that you are an American is neither praiseworthy nor a worthwhile factor to be included into the hypothetical compairson between Pontiac and Honda.

      I’m sure you’re proud to be an American, as are millions of other Americans, as you have every right to feel proud. BUT, if you’re going to be subjective when choosing between two cars in the same segment, being American has as much relevance to the matter as what you colour socks you’re wearing or weather you add sugar to your coffee.

    • #39095
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: I really don’t know what you’re driving at. I wasn’t attempting to make a big deal about my American citizenship. I would assume that most of the people on this thread are Americans, too.

      By the way, people choose their cars based on any number of factors, some of them subjective. So? A carbuyer has a right to do that. I wouldn’t think to dictate to someone else, the bases for his or her car purchases. And, after reading an untold number of posts, on an untold number of message-boards, many Americans DO adhere to “buy American first.” What’s wrong with that? It’s not for us to judge these people.

      There are no “hypotheticals” here. You made a challenge to the quality of Pontiacs. How did you expect me–as a Pontiac loyalist–to respond? You claimed that Hondas were better-built. Perhaps they were. As I said in an earlier post, I might have been prepared to concede that. But, another post claimed that Chevy was better than Toyota, so I though that I might question your claim, assuming that Chevy and Pontiac were roughly similar in build quality. I see no indication of obfuscation here. Perhaps a subsidiary issue is, Honda build-quality vs Toyota build-quality, but I don’t intend to pursue that. My focus is on Pontiac, and seeing the brand return.

      Apparently, your focus is on Pontiac vs Honda. You prefer Honda, and I certainly respect that. I wouldn’t attempt to criticize your choice. Likewise, please respect my preference for Pontiac.

    • #39096
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Look I know I said that I had nothing else to say about Pontiac coming back, and I dont. But reading this thread and hearing from Grwdaddy that Hondas were built better/of better quality than Pontiacs is absolutely ridiculous and I had to come in here and support Pontiac on this statement. I would put up a 2009 G6 vs a 2009 Accord any day and the Pontiac would be just as good if not better. Don’t even get me started on the G8. If you want to get into it even more, I’d put up my 2000 Grand Prix GT(the one in my profile picture) against a 2000 Accord ANY DAY also.

    • #39098
      pontiac04gt
      Participant

      GM really should bring pontiac back. They are losing lots of buisness due to not having a sporty division anymore. Even if they just bring back the g8 and solstice at first, or the GTO or something, im not saying they need a lineup of 10 cars or anything. GM just needs a division to focous on sporty cars, instead of trying to make buick sporty…because it never will be. Just put an arrowhead on it!

    • #39099
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Welcome pontiac04gt! Glad to have another Pontiac fan, there are more and more on here everyday!

    • #39100
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @pontiac04gt: Allow me also to extend my welcome to you! ALWAYS nice to have another Pontiac loyalist on the thread. Together, we all must carry the day for Pontiac!


      @PontiacRulz
      : Nice to hear from you again. Your support is always timely, and on this thread you were the fiery champion of Pontiac. I hope we haven’t heard the last of you.

    • #39101
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @pontiac04gt

      “GM really should bring pontiac back. They are losing lots of buisness due to not having a sporty division anymore. Even if they just bring back the g8 and solstice at first, or the GTO or something, im not saying they need a lineup of 10 cars or anything. GM just needs a division to focous on sporty cars, instead of trying to make buick sporty…because it never will be. Just put an arrowhead on it!”

      Welcome to the forum, mate.

      In typical me fashion, I’m going to challenge the following points:
      1. How much is “a lot” of business? Not the G8 nor the Soltice sold much, unfortunately.
      2. Have you seen the 130R/140S concepts that are part of a new division within Chevy?
      3. Buick isn’t trying to be sporty; it’s simply direction-less luxury; the luxury bit is also questionable. I believe that if it weren’t for the Regal line, Buick would have a very strong sense of direction in pursuing Lexus. In any event, Buick is no substitute for a sporty mainstream automobile.

      What say you?

    • #39116
      Cactus
      Participant

      How about this:
      What if Pontiac was brought back as a dealer installed options package for Chevy/Buick? I’m thinking along the lines of red arrowheads, a body kit, red dash lights, and extra hvac vents 😉
      Then, once a year, a number of “limited edition” models could be made from the top-of-the-line models currently available. Say 2000 Regal GS’s are re-badged as Grand Prix GTP’s, 1500 ZL1 Camaros as Trans-ams or Firehawk T-As, and (if GM wanted to reach into concept cars) 200 ZR1 Corvettes re-badged as Banshees.

    • #39117
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Cactus I like how you think! That’s a really cool idea! Especially the Banshee part! 😀

    • #39118
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Cactus: I can go for that. Eventually, however, GM should upgrade Pontiac to full division status.

    • #39119
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua Slight correction — there are no more divisions at GM NA — just brands. But I do understand your message. :)>-

    • #39120
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Oh, OK. I remember that Buick, GMC, and Pontiac were organized together under Docherty, when GM murdered Pontiac. OK: GM should eventually upgrade Pontiac to full BRAND status. Thanks.

    • #39121
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      Why is there an obsession to want to ‘bring back the past’? Why bring back past Pontiac nameplates that are hardly remembered by the majority nowadays? It can’t be for ‘tradition’ as a tradition is just anything you’ve ever done more than once.

      Even if Pontiac were to return, why regurgitate old namesplates? It’s isn’t going to help ‘recreate a new golden era’ of muscle cars; gas prices dictate that. Why not new nameplates as they won’t carry the ugly baggage and stereotypical blue-colar image of the past with a hypothetical relaunch of Pontiac.

    • #39124
      Arsenal
      Participant

      I’ll say this as a Pontiac fan and owner. Pontiac should not come back! I repeat. Pontiac should not come back. GM failed Pontiac by their indecision and lack of creativity with the brand. Those same people who failed Pontiac then are most likely still there and I believe they would fail Pontiac now. GM had full intention of killing Pontiac if not then later because they couldn’t do anything with them.

      There two types of Pontiac owners. You had the Pontiac owners who just bought rebadged Chevys (the majority). You had the minority niche Pontiac owners (which I’m a part of). Pontiac owners at least where I live. We are the outcast in the local car scene. We don’t associate ourselves with the other brands. As a result, there is plenty of bad blood between us and the main GM brand of the area. In fact, we hate each other so much that the car social organizer gave Pontiacs special permission to park on the other side of the lot away from the GM crowd when all GM cars were supposed to sit by each other. So, my Pontiacs sat by the Lotus crew who loved my cars.

      I also take a lot of flack for being a Pontiac fan not a GM fan. It is what it is though. That arrowhead and split kidney grill really speaks to me more than any other badge. I’m a die hard BMW buyer but the only “mainstream” brand I purchased was Pontiacs. Now, that Pontiac is gone, it is sad but for the best for the sake of Pontiac. I rather have Pontiac maintain a shred of its dignity than being further ran into the ground by the incompetence at GM’s HQ. Pontiac can be successful but obviously GM won’t make the right decisions to get to that end. What made me sick to my stomach was the public display of rubbing salt into the wound by the other brand’s supporters happy for Pontiac’s demise. Then, they would get mad at me for not wanting to buy another GM vehicle. There are a lot of people who support other brands they can easily say how they felt bad about Pontiac’s death but they are easily lying. I accept no condolence from other people or kind words from the other GM brand fans. I rather just sit back smoking a cigar looking at my Pontiacs thinking how I could have bought any other GM vehicle but for some reason I chose them. I wouldn’t be as happy with any other car.

      I applaud the Pontiac supporters’ efforts in this thread but I for one will not join your crusade. Not until we have higher quality people running GM. I have received countless offers from GM begging me for my business again. I refuse as they have nothing for me and they never will I believe. I have received so many offers that I’m personally annoyed by them and every month I make sure to torch any GM offers I have received from them by throwing them into my fireplace.

    • #39128
      Cactus
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy We bring back the names of the past because those are the names people remember and can relate to. That nostalgia is what will aid in the sales of those limited run cars. By your logic GM shouldn’t have named the 5th gen Camaro, Camaro. Its not even an f-body.

      And am I the only one who doesn’t care about fuel economy? As long as I get mid 20s with my daily driver, I’m happy.

      On a side note, (with the exception of the G8 and G6 hardtop convertible) all of the G-series Pontiacs sucked something awful.

    • #39130
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Cactus I care about fuel economy, but not as much as the fun-to-drive factor; that’s why there’s a Camaro in my future. Unfortunately, people seem to put too much weight in the MPGs and not enough in passion/soul/driveability.

    • #39131
      Cactus
      Participant

      @alex Thank you. My sentiments exactly.

    • #39133
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Cactus:

      “And am I the only one who doesn’t care about fuel economy?”

      You might be. You are surrounded, globally, by a billion other driver who do care about fuel economy. People who think mid-20’s are garbage. People who don’t look at the intersection to an on-ramp as an excuse to hit it and slide the rear-end out as they fly into the intersection and down the ramp to the highway.

      You ‘tastes’ in cars is in the minority. If you’re going to choose such characteristics as what you want in a car, you need to know if they are sustainable. If they aren’t and cannot be met in todays world/socico-poltical enviroment/economy, they you have the most to lose when shopping for a car as you won’t find anything to meet your demands.

      Those days of V8’s and RWD are dying, but only if you can afford to pay a premum for one. You might get RWD, but not with an LS. You’ll get an LNF, and nobody will care about Pontiac and nonsense nostagia.

      The nostagia argument is a throw-back to a time that simply will never return. It is unwise to have such an unhealthy attachment to such a long-lost time period.

    • #39135
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Arsenal: Welcome to the thread. I’m impressed by your passion for Pontiac. And here I thought I was passionate about Pontiac. Where I differ is that I want Pontiac to return ASAP. I’m tired of driving an orphan; I resent this stigma that Pontiac now has for being dead. I want to be driving a LIVING brand. I maintain that half a loaf of bread is better than no bread at all. ANY Pontiac is better than NO PONTIAC AT ALL, and I’m speaking as a musclecar guy who’s owned five GTOs, a Firebird Formula 400, and two Trans Ams.

      Now: If there’s a shake-up at GM, and “higher quality people” start running it, will you THEN join our crusade? I can tell your passion by reading your post. You’re kind of like PontiacRulz. We NEED guys like you.

    • #39136
      Arsenal
      Participant

      If GM gets guys (and ladies) in there who have half a brain and can clearly indicate to me that they are ready to handle a new brand then that to me is an indication that Pontiac should be considered to have another run. Right now, they haven’t showed me that they can handle it. However, watch Opel and Holden because what they do with them will give a pretty clear answer to whether they are capable of Pontiac.

      I for one will not settle for a half baked Pontiac revival because it gives more fuel to the fire for the Chevy faithful. As there are plenty of in this thread. This is where we differ and I see that we will always differ. Good luck to you and if your way does occur than I hope for Pontiac’s sake GM is ready. However, what I don’t like is that how Pontiac buyers matter when Pontiac existed now all of the sudden when Pontiac dies. They turn around and start insulting and pretty much belittling the faithful. That two faced treatment was very distasteful and has caused me to have a serious disdain for the other brands. That backwater mentality from some of the supporters of other brands (not everyone) has really in turn made me have a pure and unadulterated hatred for them. I still don’t associate myself with the decent ones out there. There is GM state meet every year and we have always rejected the invitation from them because all it would do is break up into some Chevy redneck damaging our vehicles.

    • #39137
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Arsenal: I respect your position. I’ve seen a similar position stated on other Pontiac message-boards. But please: Again, if there IS a shake-up at GM, please consider joining our crusade. Even in your last post, your powerful allegiance to Pontiac is evident. Don’t go away. If an opportunity arises that meets your conditions for joining our crusade, I hope you’ll join us.

    • #39138
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Arsenal @Moanalua If there is a time that has “higher quality people running GM”?

      This is the most ludicrous, uninformed, and laughable comment I’ve seen this year. Can either of you actually name who is “running GM” (without doing a Google search)? If you could, you would know the following:
      1. These are NOT the same people who contributed to the GM (and Pontiac) of the last 2 decades
      2. These people are as “high quality” as they come

      These are the same folks who have just made GM one of the most profitable automakers in the world. Just in case you missed this report from last week, GM reported a PROFIT of nearly $8 billion in 2011, making this country stronger and more wealthy. At some point, you need to open your eyes and realize that what’s best for “the people” as a whole (a healthy economy, wealth, etc.) may not align with what you think is best for you (Pontiac).

      Have a look:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/02/general-motors-reports-2011-net-income-of-7-6-billion/

      Ultimately, I’m all for having an educated discussion of cars, brands, and anything auto-related. But when people begin discussing subject matter in which they’re not at all informed, it rubs me the wrong way… and makes @Moanalua’s seemingly blind crusade a huge joke. It also gives the perception that those doing the discussing without knowing their own ass from breakfast are “low quality people”.

    • #39140
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Hey, I’m just responding to Arsenal’s post. He claimed that Pontiac has no chance with the people running GM now. He’s not the first to say that. I’ve seen the same position taken on other Pontiac-related message-boards. I’M not asking that the people running GM be replaced. Meanwhile, a HOST of folks will continue pushing for Pontiac’s return. Are you suggesting that folks who want Pontiac back are “uneducated”?

    • #39143
      Arsenal
      Participant

      @alex Calm down, just because they can make money with 4 brands in NA doesn’t mean they are good enough to handle another brand on their plate. I personally don’t care that GM made a profit. I’m wealthy and I have everything that need so in the grand scheme of things. GM’s profit doesn’t matter to me and the fact that I’m happy is what matters not GM’s profit. My happiness is not dependent on Pontiac however, I personally would be more leaning towards Pontiac being sold however I know GM won’t do that. They don’t want someone who is smart enough to deal with Pontiac to make a competitor out of it and start eating away from GM’s business. No I didn’t look at the thread because this all irrelevant to my point. I’m looking for another car right now that has a manual and RWD. I wonder what could it be……..

    • #39145
      pontiac04gt
      Participant

      Guys just a couple quick questions. 1 – Do you think that because GM did not sell the pontiac name; that this is any indication at all it will return? And 2- what are the realistic chances of pontiac returning in the next 5 – 10 years (or ever)?

    • #39146
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @pontiac04gt:

      1 – No. The name and associated property rights were retained as GM was the sole owner of the brand from conception to completion. Such marketable property is useful in other areas, but all things attached to the Pontiac name will, historically and inexorably, be linked to GM.

      GM’s decision to retain their own intellectual property is not a reliable metric to gague when such intellectural property will brought back into the consumer market.

      2 – Never. The world that allowed Pontiac to thrive in the mid-60’s didn’t exist in the 70’s through to the 00’s and never will return.

    • #39147
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @pontiac04gt:

      1. There’s no GUARANTEE that GM is keeping the rights to Pontiac with an eye to reviving the brand. As owner of the Pontiac name, GM earns royalties on such items as die-cast models of Pontiacs. At the same time, keeping the rights to Pontiac DOES leave the door open for Pontiac’s return. Of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean that GM WILL go there, but at least the possibility exists. Having said that, I’ve read in countless posts on other Pontiac-related message-boards that GM might very well be keeping the rights to Pontiac in order to revive the brand at some later date.

      2. On this one, follow your heart. If you want Pontiac back, keep agitating for its return. Last I heard, GM said it “would never say never” to reviving Pontiac. The scope of the hue and cry for Pontiac’s return is unprecedented. Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, and see what you get. The number of websites asking for Pontiac’s return is inspiring. Look at the other brands that were discontinued over the past eleven years or so: Plymouth, Olds, and Mercury (in chronological order). You’ll see NOTHING LIKE the effort being put into bringing Pontiac back. Pontiac was a compelling brand, both here and (especially) in Canada. It was the #1 American brand in Canada, and #3 at GM here in the US. Pontiac’s support is evidenced by all the websites you see when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”. Until GM ITSELF says it will never revive Pontiac, MAY I SUGGEST YOU KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT, and keep the faith. That’s certainly what I intend to do. I hope you might continue to stand by me and all the other Pontiac faithful across the US and Canada. Again: Last I heard, GM said it “WOULD NEVER SAY NEVER” to Pontiac.

    • #39150
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      “and keep the faith. That’s certainly what I intend to do.”

      BAHAHA!

      If Pontiac is a ‘faith’ in need of keeping, then I couldn’t be happier to be a atheist.

    • #39151
      pontiac04gt
      Participant

      Grawdaddy whats your deal, why are you so against the idea of pontiac returning? what did pontiacs ever do to you? there are plenty of people in the world who would love to have pontiacs put back into production. i dont get why your so anti-pontiac, it makes no sense

    • #39152
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @pontiac04gt

      I can’t pin down the percise time period, but I belive it was somewhere between when I first heard “we build excitement” when I was looking at a 3rd gen GA, and when Lutz said “Americas’ BMW”.

      But to get to the point, it’s not so much “anti-pontiac”, it’s more like “what would be the point?”. For the last 40 years, Pontiac never had much to differenciate it from Chevy, and even when it wanted to pursue that “excitement” that it vaunted so much, it was always done so with money losing cars.

      It was a workable business case to make affordable performance cars. It last worked 40 years ago during Pontiac’s heyday. Nothing is as it was then and that’s why we had things like the SV6, the Torrent, and the G3; cars that had to be sold just to keep the brand viable when it’s mission statement of 40 years ago was all but a memory.

      Pro-Pontiacists seem to think that the brand is “coming just around the corner”; the aforementioned and laughable 5-10 years that you think it will take to herlald Pontiac’s return. It’s not only short-sighted, but outright weird that you think such a think could happen.

      Whats more, it’s blind people of the new “pontiac faith” that always play the “tradition” card like it matters any more. Tradition is dead and some people just can’t accept deadfisted facts of life. Just because your daddy had an GTO or your uncle had a turbo TransAM DOES NOT IN ANY WAY ENTITLE OR GUARANTEE that you’ll be able to have the same thing in your time.

      Furthermore, you’re a minority in the car world. Not everyone wants “excitement” in their cars, they really do just want A to B transportation, not a car with t-tops and a fire chicken. Many people would have their commutes automated, and if trends are anything to go by, they soon will.

      The only realistic way I could ever see such a pointless brand ever coming back, AND marketing affordable performance as it’s key selling point, would be the to kill the ICE and have full electrics take over. With the energy security bullet dodged and significant lower operating costs, you can have people move performance up their list of demands. That’s if you can get the majority of people to actualy care about such a matter so that you could market Pontiac to them.

      and you think that’s going to happen in 5 to 10 years time?

      Remember, it’s not “anti-pontiac”, it’s “what’s the point”?

    • #39153
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: It’s really very simple. Pontiac loyalists want their brand back, and we won’t accept any excuses as to why it “can’t.” IF INDEED it “can’t,” then we’ll take our business to a non-GM automaker. It’s really just as simple as that. I think I said as much, in one of my previous posts.

    • #39154
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @pontiac04gt: My feeling is, who CARES what the naysayers think. As you said, there are PLENTY of folks–you and I included–who want Pontiac back. Anyone who Googles “Bring Back Pontiac” would see that. That’s all we have to know. So: Keep the faith, and keep pushing for Pontiac’s return!

    • #39155
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Arsenal

      “Calm down, just because they can make money with 4 brands in NA doesn’t mean they are good enough to handle another brand on their plate.”

      It certainly doesn’t, pal. In fact, I would argue that introducing more brands would lead to a decreased focus and a poor(er) performance. The fact, however, is that “New GM” is a highly-successful automaker with “high quality people” running the show. End of story.

      “I personally don’t care that GM made a profit. I’m wealthy and I have everything that need so in the grand scheme of things. GM’s profit doesn’t matter to me and the fact that I’m happy is what matters not GM’s profit.”

      Sorry, are you an American? If not, never mind. But if you are, I would assume you would have some kind of pride that a U.S.-based automaker is doing very well; I would also assume you have an understanding of why this is important… after all, no matter how wealthy you are, a super power like the U.S. needs to “make” something and can’t rely on a “services-based” economy. This isn’t a matter of opinion, it’s a fact.

      So while GM’s profit doesn’t affect you directly here and now, it does have an effect on the economy, this country, and on things bigger than you, me, and everyone else here combined.

      “My happiness is not dependent on Pontiac however, I personally would be more leaning towards Pontiac being sold however I know GM won’t do that. They don’t want someone who is smart enough to deal with Pontiac to make a competitor out of it and start eating away from GM’s business.”

      The Pontiac you’re looking for will not eat “away from GM’s business”… at least not in any measurable and/or sizable capacity. People are simply no longer looking for those kinds of vehicles; no matter how much it pains me to say this, it’s true.

      “No I didn’t look at the thread because this all irrelevant to my point. I’m looking for another car right now that has a manual and RWD. I wonder what could it be……..”

      Have you heard of the Chevy Camaro or the Corvette? I understand they’re wonderful vehicles that do tail slides very well…

    • #39156
      Arsenal
      Participant

      @alex

      First of all, I’m not your pal. Only my friends call me pal and I don’t consider you a friend nor will I ever. I don’t even know you other than that you run this site. GM has some half decent people but they are stretched doing with what they have now. They are trying so hard to impress the American public that it’s halfway pathetic but then again if you are in such a bad way PR wise then it’s understandable. They can’t handle Pontiac coming back and I’m not the only one who said this. That is what I mean. You may prop them up if you like but if they are this stretched with 4 brands then we don’t need a fifth.

      You’re right, never mind that. I guess it makes people who aren’t supportive of GM un-American. Should they revoke their citizenship as well? You expect GM’s dead brand supporters to be happy that GM is successful and buy their vehicles as well. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If they do buy GM then I don’t care but you shouldn’t expect them to be supportive of GM. Plenty of people had to pay to save GM from their sorry ways and many of those people wouldn’t dare by GM. For them, it was their hard earned money forcefully being taken from them. They would never get a return on their investment. I love Dan Akerson’s quote “GM was saved by the extreme generosity of Americans.” Really, if you want to praise the Americans (and Canadians) for compulsory generosity then so be it. It was probably best that GM was bailed out but that doesn’t mean that everybody wanted to. Chevy runs deep but not in my family (BMW runs very deep).

      Thirdly, you don’t know what Pontiac I want so that makes your entire point irrelevant unless you are a mind reader.

      Lastly, you can take your recommendations and shove them back into Dan Akerson’s mouth and let him choke on it. There are plenty of manual and RWD vehicles which deserve my attention (unlike the Camaro and Corvette). I do apologize I should have been more specific and said “outside of GM”. However, I will gladly consider recommendations for manual and RWD cars from foreign brands. I’m looking at a Hyundai Genesis Coupe, Subaru BRZ or even waiting longer for the next M3.

    • #39157
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Arsenal

      “First of all, I’m not your pal. Only my friends call me pal and I don’t consider you a friend nor will I ever.”

      Looks like I hit a soft spot. Is it no longer polite to be friendly? In that case, should I greet you next time with a nice serving of “F^ck off”? Seriously, don’t get your panties in a bunch.

      “GM has some half decent people but they are stretched doing with what they have now.”

      This is a simple matter of business. Pontiac and Saturn detracted from core brand (Chevrolet) sales, while Ford, Honda, et al. held a laser focus and delivered long-term brand value and trust. There is also a dealer value aspect that didn’t exist when Pontiac, Saturn existed.

      In any event, the goal of a (public) company is to be profitable and to deliver value to its shareholders; having more brands won’t necessarily help accomplish this goal… nor will it necessarily detract from it. As for being “stretched”, what’s your point? More resources can always be obtained to achieve whatever goal necessary… most of the time, doing so alters the profit equation. They may be “stretched” now, or they may not be. But they sure as heck are delivering on the goal of a public firm.

      “They are trying so hard to impress the American public that it’s halfway pathetic but then again if you are in such a bad way PR wise then it’s understandable.”

      What’s understandable?

      GM’s focus is on making the best products on the market… the PR aspect is secondary and exists thanks to people like yourself who don’t realize that fact. Every company does PR, some more than others. And GM does less than most, even today. Not sure what’s so pathetic about making excellent products and spreading the word about them via whatever means necessary.

      “You’re right, never mind that. I guess it makes people who aren’t supportive of GM un-American. Should they revoke their citizenship as well?”

      Good way to take things entirely out of context. Look, if you — as an American — don’t feel like supporting an American company that’s a worldwide force in an important industry, then that’s your choice. But don’t expect me to support you in doing so. GM is as American as most companies get. Whatever happened to patriotism? (Ironically, this is coming from someone born in the 80s).

      “Plenty of people had to pay to save GM from their sorry ways and many of those people wouldn’t dare by GM. For them, it was their hard earned money forcefully being taken from them. They would never get a return on their investment. I love Dan Akerson’s quote “GM was saved by the extreme generosity of Americans.” Really, if you want to praise the Americans (and Canadians) for compulsory generosity then so be it. It was probably best that GM was bailed out but that doesn’t mean that everybody wanted to. Chevy runs deep but not in my family (BMW runs very deep).”

      Did they now? How did you, personally, pay for GM’s “saving/rescue”? How did your hard-earned money get forcefully taken from you? Did someone go into your bank account, charge your credit card, withdraw from your IRA, or steal it from under your mattress? No… you already parted with the money you paid to the government, at which point it ceased being yours and at which point you have no say in how it gets spent.

      In that light, you will never see a return on investment because it wasn’t your money being invested… it was the money you owed to the government, fair and square.

      And to that end, how do you know that the Treasury won’t walk away with a profit on the “GM bailout”? Hint: they don’t need to sell their remaining stake today or tomorrow. They can wait for several years if they so desire and actually turn a profit. But then I’m sure you’ll wine that you deserve a cut of whatever that profit may be.

      “You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”

      I most certainly can. Just did, actually.

      “Thirdly, you don’t know what Pontiac I want so that makes your entire point irrelevant unless you are a mind reader.”

      and then…

      “You expect GM’s dead brand supporters to be happy that GM is successful and buy their vehicles as well.”

      No, I don’t… so quit your assuming. Are you a mind reader yourself?

      So ultimately, you’re looking for a sporty compact that handles well. Chevy is working on something that may be suited for you…
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/chevy-130r-concept-will-be-the-most-balanced-car/

      Not that you should wait for it… have you considered a 1er?

    • #39158
      Arsenal
      Participant

      @alex I think you need to quit being so sensitive to me calling you out. All I said was that we aren’t friends so don’t refer to me in such a manner. You’re being friendly well I’m not. I’m engaging you in a non-confrontational manner that’s all I what want from you nothing more and nothing less. What’s so soft about that?

      What’s pathetic is all of the commercials like their soft marketing schemes trying to make people patriotically obligated to buy their cars. Chevy runs deep, the latest Super Bowl commercials.

      I didn’t take anything out of context. It was a question. That was my point. It’s not my money so why do the people get credit for it. It was compulsory. Don’t thank the people Dan thank the government who saved you. It’s still the people’s money because the government officials are established by the people who vote them in. It was compulsory as they take my money from my checks. I guess you are unfamiliar that the government takes your money. So, in effect someone can say that they took it from you. They took the money earned by working and grab it before you even see it. If it makes you feel better I’ll be sure to tell the US government that they should make the people buy GM vehicles exclusively.

      No, you can’t have your cake and eat it as well especially when the cake is a lie. I’ll stop assuming when you do. Oh, great psychic.

      Again, you are assuming and are wrong. I’m not looking for a sport compact. I’m looking for a manual and RWD vehicle not matter the size. Whay are you recommending GM vehicles well I take that back you are a GM fan so of course, you will always want me to buy one of them. I don’t care about the 130R nor will I settle for a GM vehicle. They don’t have a vehicle that deserves my business.

      If it makes you feel better then my wife wants an ATS but she said she will buy only if I will let her use my GM card that I received for being a Pontiac owner and that when she bought it that I will move my M5 out of the garage so she could park it there. I said no to both requests.

    • #39159
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      I call a spade a spade. If that’s being sensitive, so be it. I didn’t really follow the logic of the rest of your comment, especially the psychic or the cake parts.

      The 130R isn’t out yet but falls directly in the class of car you’re interested in: RWD, manual transmission. So does the Camaro and the Vette. But just because they’re made by GM, they don’t deserve your business…

      “Whay are you recommending GM vehicles well I take that back you are a GM fan so of course, you will always want me to buy one of them.”

      Brace yourself… I drive a 2012 Mustang.

    • #39161
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      All I have to say is Grawfatty is a JOKE! Someone please put a sock in that guys mouth because he is the most annoying thing i think i’ve ever come across.

    • #39163
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @PontiacRulz:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4&feature=related

      Oh, someone is butthurt because he can’t convince others to support his untenable cause!

      Come back man, we were just gettin’ started! This is just another GM forum about a dead horse topic that you started and have since been unable to defend. It’s not my fault you have unfavourable ideas that aren’t shared by others. Perhaps you shouldn’t have such unfavorable ideas and should adopt new ones.

      Back if that’s how you want to be, fine then. Keep throwing childish insults out like a toddler. It isn’t helping your orginal argument, and it just makes you look like you’re running out of steam.

      By the way, there’s a spelling mistake in this sentence. Pick it out and use it as an argument. I’m sure it’s the strongest card you can play right now is finding spelling and grammatical errors as your arguments for Pontiac have all been lackluster.

      Come back when you’ve got a working argument for Pontiac, not more of your white flag waving.

    • #39165
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      I think it’s time to close this thread down once and for all.

      All arguments have been exhausted… and now it’s getting to the point where personal insults are flying in the face of decent conversation. Reminds me of the guys I used to work with on an oil rig. Only different is none of them knew how to use a computer or spell.

    • #39166
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @wbodyfan: To me, all arguments will not be exhausted until either Pontiac returns, or GM ITSELF says it WON’T return. The problem is, we sometimes lapse into a lack of decorum. I raised the issue earlier on this thread, and someone accused me of “having my panties in a bunch.” (I later noticed that he had deleted that post).

    • #39167
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Grawfatty please…. Your trying to say that nobody wants Pontiac to come back? Well that’s your “opinion” I guess but it’s not true. believe me the deman is there and GM hears about it everyday. You are nothin but a joke grawfatty and i’d be better off just ignoring you cause I can tell i don’t like you. Get off my forum you greasy troll!

    • #39168
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz Everyone has an opinion. We don’t necessarily need to respect them, but we need to be civil in discussing them. Calling people “fatty” or trolls doesn’t accomplish that. For one, @Grawdaddy is not a troll and has been an ardent supporter of GM Authority for a while.

      Bottom line: if we can’t stay civil and have an educated discussion like real adults, I will close this thread down faster than GM shut down Pontiac.

    • #39169
      Firebird619
      Participant

      i to like pontiacs but i also like chevy. maybe pontiac fans should try to protest i mean if you want something back so bad you have to being willing to go the distance in like trying to persuade people in your neighborhood who just starting to look for their first car to buy pontiac. someone at GM headquarters must still keep track of that sort of stuff if they see that pontiac cars are still selling. i also think muscle cars make a come back. dodge is doing with the new 2012 v8 dodge charger srt8 with hemi 470 horsepower. P.S no more hybrids wheres the thrill in cars anymore

    • #39170
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Firebird619 Problem is, you can’t buy a new Pontiac anymore (unless there’s that rare instance of a new unit sitting on a dealer lot). And with the current prices of gas, muscle cars won’t enjoy the same popularity… but compact crotch rockets will (think Focus ST, Civic Si).

      Ironically, the latest sales numbers (for February) show an equal year-over-year increase for the Cruze as they do for the Camaro of 10.1 percent:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/03/by-the-numbers-gm-february-sales-up-1-1-percent/

    • #39171
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @alex im not talking new pontiacs im talking about pontiacs in general like from a local used car dealer. and what about a protest like a group of pontiac fans in like michigan or any where close by to GM headquarters that like pontiac go and protest.

    • #39172
      Firebird619
      Participant

      maybe its time for GM to come up with a new brand idk think of as this pontiac had a child. Gm has to fill the gap that was pontiac. make a brand that could appeal to are generation and generation after us. a fresh start what do you think @alex. its just something i came up with last night because it is are time to come up with something new and fun so the thrill can continue are grandfathers would love that the fact that we kept the thrill in cars going just not in pontiac. we can continue the excitement that pontiac had in a different but new brand.

    • #39173
      Firebird619
      Participant

      guys try to come up with a brand name. we might not be able save pontiac but we can save the thrill. we will rebuild the excitement. they can take away are pontiacs but they’ll never take away are excitement. either this or grab your friends,signs, other pontiac fans, and get out there and start protesting. cause we can’t just sit here talking about it. its gotta be one or the other. can’t have both.

    • #39175
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Firebird619 Have you seen the recently-unveiled Chevy 130R and 140S concepts?

      My gut tells me that GM is working on a “passion sub-brand” for Chevy that will contain/define unique/passionate vehicles. For instance, there is a reason those two concepts have Cross Flags on them. Check this:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/chevrolet-concept-coupes-have-corvette-cross-flag-emblems-because/

    • #39177
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Firebird619: Welcome to the thread! (By the way, I have a Trans Am, so I like your user name). I appreciate your zeal for a GM excitement brand. However, rather than GM starting a NEW excitement brand, I would prefer that GM simply revive Pontiac. Pontiac had been GM’s excitement brand for decades, so why re-invent the wheel? If GM SHOULD have a separate “excitement brand,” (and I agree that it should), GM should simply revive Pontiac.


      @PontiacRulz
      : Always nice to hear from you. You are the most reliable and ardent Pontiac loyalist on this thread. I’m inspired by your passion for the brand. You and I will accept NOTHING LESS than the return of Pontiac.

    • #39179
      Cactus
      Participant

      @Firebird619
      Pontiac was a “child brand” It came to be to fill in a gap between Chevrolet and Oakland.

      Pontiac was my favorite brand, hands down. I would personally be thrilled if Pontiac saw a revival, but Pontiac had zero models that wouldn’t have had success under the bow-tie. There is nothing Pontiac could produce that “New Chevy” cannot. Even Pontiac’s body styles have made their way into Chevrolet. Every time I see a Sonic I have to remind myself that it is not a Pontiac.

    • #39181
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Cactus: What you’re saying has been true since at least 1971, when GM decided to outfit the new Pontiac Ventura II with a Chevy engine (if you ordered a V8). I don’t think that’s really the issue, though. For we Pontiac loyalists, it doesn’t MATTER that Chevy can build anything Pontiac could. WE WANT PONTIACS. PONTIAC is our brand. And–needless to say–I, TOO, would be thrilled if Pontiac returns. It was MY favorite brand, too, hands down!

    • #39183
      Firebird619
      Participant

      you guys get that the government still owns 26% of GM still right so who ever making bad choices its not GM its the government. yea former GM ceo Rick Wagoner was fired by obama and replaced him with government units who are not even car lovers.

    • #39184
      Firebird619
      Participant

      vote for mitt romney he’ll give GM back full control of GM. MITT ROMNEY: “Well, what I would do is immediately distribute the shares that the government has in GM to the public. Either that or sell the shares and have the proceeds go back to reducing the deficit. But the idea that the government continues to hold shares in General Motors and calls the shots there is not consistent with American free enterprise. General Motors ought to be run by its Board of Directors and its shareholders, like every other company and this insistence by the government that they get to tell General Motors what kind of cars to build and where to build them is an enormous mistake and has the potential of imperiling a company that can be successful. Look the reason these companies got in trouble was because the unions asked for too much; the management gave in too often and made some enormous mistakes of their own; the government put in place CAFE requirements that were disadvantageous for domestic manufacturers. We need to get the government out of these companies’ hair and let them go to work to become competitive—not only in the U.S. but globally. The world is changing in the auto industry and we’ve got to get these companies on a global footing as opposed to kowtowing to Washington.”

    • #39185
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Firebird619:

      “yea former GM ceo Rick Wagoner was fired by obama and replaced him with government units who are not even car lovers.”

      You mean people who wanted to make cars that sold? You mean he might not have ever owned a TransAM but he has the gall to run GM?>!?

      By the way, Alan Mulally isn’t a car guy at all! He worked for Boeing for years! What the hell is he doing at Ford? He better not be making FWD cars and hybrids that people are buying! He should be making Raptor versions of the F-450 and bringing back the Crown Vic!

      ~

      Have you ever thought that what you think might be right for GM is not what actually is best for GM?

      The world is different, and brands like Pontiac simply don’t make economic sense.

      ~

      As for PontiacRulz, well, you’ve just proved you really don’t have any steam left. If you want, you can quietly call it quits and you won’t hear from me again, ever. But if you’re going to come back, keep 3 things in mind.

      – Childish name calling makes you look childish.
      – Working arguments for a hypothetical return of Pontiac.
      – Threads you start are not “your property” and never will be.

      Thank you.

    • #39186
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy well what i think is that GM should get 100% control of their company back and let them make choices on their own without the government’s aid. GM needs to learn how to do things on their own without government telling them which cars to sell or not to sell.
      Mitt romney “General Motors ought to be run by its Board of Directors and its shareholders, like every other company and this insistence by the government that they get to tell General Motors what kind of cars to build and where to build them is an enormous mistake and has the potential of imperiling a company that can be successful”. romney has it right. general motors having the government is a huge mistake. that is whats actually right for GM no more government involvement like or not man.

    • #39187
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Firebird619 That’s a much more complicated issue than what Romney, or anyone else for that matter — make it out to be.

      For instance, when has “the government” interfered with the operation of the New GM? Can we point to specific examples?

      And if “the government” is actually “interfering”, then I’m all for the kind of “interference” they currently have: GM is making the best vehicles on the road and is a very profitable organization. Compare that to “Old GM”… need I say more?

      The political angle is pure BS in my opinion. There haven’t been any issues or examples of government interference… and if there has, it’s only worked to help the company make better products or make more money.

      As someone wise once said on YouTube… “Leave [GM] alone”.

      Additionally:
      “Mitt romney “General Motors ought to be run by its Board of Directors and its shareholders”

      That’s the way it is right now.

    • #39188
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @alex no its not. “Leave [GM] alone” that guy was talking about the government’s involvment altogether. do you even pay attention to the primaries. cause i’ve watched all of them so far. or the news, the stock market. not only that look every where man the government still has some control over GM. and thats not right.

    • #39189
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Firebird619

      I don’t think it would. Since bringing back Pontiac today virtually guarantees platform sharing, it would just be a small percentage of a production line’s total annual output being Pontiac’s; that’s doesn’t assumes there would even be a spike in demand for the defunct brand in the first place.

      For example, it could be 100,000 cars that would have been Chevrolet’s anyway. If 15K are wearing a different front fascia, that’s just 85K chevy’s that share not one significant difference to seperate them from their supposed “performance brand” counterpart. It’s also 15K less Chevy’s come the end of the year. GM isn’t benfiting, and neither would the workers, they’d still work at the same rate churning out 100K cars irrespective of the badge on the front.

      Furthermore, GM doesn’t need the increased marketing costs just to relaunch the brand that more than likely won’t increase sales. I also don’t think reheated G8’s or Solstices will do the trick.

    • #39190
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: There are lots of Pontiac loyalists who WON’T buy a new Chevy, or any new model of any GM brand. If GM revives Pontiac, those Pontiac loyalists WILL buy Pontiacs. I think that’s almost certain.

    • #39191
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @alex do you really think if gm was really in full control they would keep pontiac six feet under. or atleast their would be talk about a pontiac return.

    • #39192
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua

      We already touched upon this, but how many is “lots”? Let’s say there are 100,000 Pontiac loyalists like yourself. It’s a downward slope, though, with the following steps at which a certain amount of folks drops off:

      1. Make the decision for a new vehicle to be a Pontiac — lets say this is 100% of the 100,000
      2. Qualify for financing/credit — 70-80%
      3. Buy the car at the credit terms from step 2 — 70-80% of #2 above

      So that initial 100,000 has tuned into something like 60,000-70,000 buyers. Audi sells more a year than that.

      Pontiac offers no real growth or expansion opportunities past a select few such as yourself, and it would cannibalize Chevy (the brand that really matters worldwide), much how GMC is cannibalizing Chevy today.

      At some point, a sale is simply not worth it due to dimishing returns. This is one of those cases.

    • #39193
      Firebird619
      Participant

      why are there so many negative people in this thread. i know your being realistic. don’t forget change is realistic to. people can change their minds. GM can change their minds.

    • #39194
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Firebird619

      “do you really think if gm was really in full control they would keep pontiac six feet under. or atleast their would be talk about a pontiac return?”

      GM is in control.

      And yes, Pontiac is a non-starter because it doesn’t make fiscal sense or offer any lucrative growth opportunities past the small number of people who want the brand to return.

      It’s a relic from way back when. A business opportunity doesn’t necessarily need to please everyone and anyone.

    • #39195
      Firebird619
      Participant

      don’t forget pontiac coming back can also create jobs.

    • #39196
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Firebird619: The negativism is something that I’ve been having to deal with since I joined this thread quite some time ago. But I intend to continue defending Pontiac. I can tell by your posts that you care for Pontiac, too. Please stay with me. Let’s continue defending Pontiac; let’s continue carrying Pontiac’s banner.

    • #39197
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @Moanalua i am behind you 100%. pontiac will come back good things like that can happen.thats why i think GM is not actually 100% in control. i believe that the government still owns in 26%.

    • #39198
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @alex you can believe what you want. you have your beliefs and i have mine. okay

    • #39199
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Firebird619: Absolutely. I’ve read on other Pontiac-related websites that the Feds installed people at GM who will whistle the Feds’ environmentalist tune. I’ve read that since Pontiac was a performance brand, the Feds (and their puppets at GM) are hostile to it. One post said that Pontiac won’t return as long as Akerson is at GM. Another post (by a different person) said that Pontiac won’t return unless Obama is defeated for re-election.

    • #39200
      Cactus
      Participant

      So what is the point of blindly defending Pontiac on this forum?
      What exactly has been accomplished here?

      More importantly, What would have to be done to see Pontiac return?

      Please don’t say “go to another manufacturer until Pontiac returns” That logic isn’t going to help anything.

      Why harm the only organization that has any chance at giving you what you want?

    • #39201
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Cactus: Then WHEN will it give us what we want?

    • #39202
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @cactus to be fair i never said i will go to another manufacturer. i sticking with GM know matter what.

    • #39203
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Firebird619: I respect that, but if you do that, what incentive will GM have to revive Pontiac? It has your business anyway.

    • #39204
      Cactus
      Participant

      @firebird619 I know you never said anything about going to another manufacturer but that has been the rally cry of others on this site.


      @moanalua
      What Pontiac loyalist need is a well formulated plan for bringing Pontiac back from the dead. Going around stomping your foot and demanding a Pontiac resurrection like a 6 year-old is not accomplishing anything.

    • #39205
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @Moanalua this dan Akerson is he a fed or the fed’s puppet?

    • #39206
      Cactus
      Participant

      GM has already stated that it will not sell the Pontiac brand. Therefor, the only organization who can bring Pontiac back is GM.

      If you buy a new vehicle from a competitor, all you are doing is making that manufacturer stronger while weakening GM.

      If you need a new vehicle and you want a Pontiac, you have to buy a used Pontiac. Buying a new Ford or Dodge or Toyota or whatever is not going to bring back the Arrowhead. All that is doing is fooling (insert any other brand here) into believing that they are building a successful product.

    • #39207
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Cactus: Let’s please not get melodramatic. I’m not “stomping my foot like a 6-year-old.” I’m quite calmly (and quite maturely) saying that unless GM provides me–as a consumer–what I want, I will go to a non-GM automaker. In Economics, that’s called “voting with your dollars.” As an Econ major, I can vouch for that.


      @Firebird619
      : I’m not CERTAIN that he’s the Feds’ puppet, but he PROBABLY is. That’s the gist I’ve been getting from other Pontiac-related websites. It would make sense, if the Feds installed people who sing their (the Feds’) tune.

    • #39208
      Firebird619
      Participant

      @Moanalua it will keep GM in business so they can revive pontiac. cause GM can’t revive pontiac if they go out of business i know that might never happen but in hypothetically if they did . i rather see GM alive and still jobs than them going out of business and see even more people jobs. see i want pontiac to return i do i like pontiac as much as the next guy but seeing those people lose their jobs would hurt me more than anything in world. im nice like that.

    • #39209
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Firebird619: I respect your position. I’ve owned nothing but Pontiacs for 34 years; I’ve been loyal to GM UNTIL 2009, when it murdered Pontiac. Trust me, if GM revives Pontiac, I’ll be back at GM’s side in a heartbeat. I’ve said as much in an earlier post. BUT: I need to see some sign from GM that Pontiac WILL return.

    • #39210
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua

      “@Firebird619: Absolutely. I’ve read on other Pontiac-related websites that the Feds installed people at GM who will whistle the Feds’ environmentalist tune. I’ve read that since Pontiac was a performance brand, the Feds (and their puppets at GM) are hostile to it. One post said that Pontiac won’t return as long as Akerson is at GM. Another post (by a different person) said that Pontiac won’t return unless Obama is defeated for re-election.”

      This is what… conjecture? No, not even that — because for it to qualify as conjecture it would need to have originated from someone with at least half a brain.

      Before everyone starts accusing me of being rude and such, let me clarify that I’m not referring to you, but rather the source of these “posts” you’re referring to. Although you posting/reposting it here doesn’t help.

      In any event, this kind of bullshit doesn’t help your guys’ case at all. It’s like saying that Pontiac will somehow put BMW out of business… or take BMW buyers. Totally ludicrous and mis-informed.

    • #39211
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Man I just can’t believe I’m reading this, @Moanalua.

      “I’m not CERTAIN that he’s the Feds’ puppet, but he PROBABLY is. That’s the gist I’ve been getting from other Pontiac-related websites. It would make sense, if the Feds installed people who sing their (the Feds’) tune.”

      Akerson is an accomplished business man. He’s a millionaire and has served as CFO of MCI, CEO of General Instrument, CEO of Nextel (growing revenue from $170 million to $3.3 billion in three years), and a venture capital fund. I’ve no sympathy for anyone who labels the man as a puppet, especially when your sources are even further-misinformed “Pontiac-related websites”.

      You should read the GM Authority blog more often, man. The best part? He’s a Republican.

      You seem to be trying to spin the GM ownership/bailout story into some kind of a political conspiracy… when there’s no conspiracy to be had. Why not commend GM on making the best cars on the road… something it hasn’t done in several decades — and for making (lots of) money as well — something that hasn’t occurred in almost the same amount of time.

      Furthermore, your economics argument is flawed.

      What you’re doing is retaliating at GM for not catering to your every whim… economics doesn’t concern itself with emotion, as you know. So according to economics, you’re making an irrational decision. Instead of buying the best product/value (rational consumer behavior), you’re planning on going out of your way to “show ’em up”.

    • #39213
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Wrong. You’re trying to tell an Econ major what economics concerns itself with. There is a field of Economics called “normative economics.” In this sub-field, ALL factors–INCLUDING emotion, or ANY OTHER factor– are considered part of a person’s “utility function.” I’d like to think that I’d know when an economic argument I make is “flawed.”

    • #39214
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Well, I’m not an economics expert myself, but what you’re describing is more along the lines of the consumer behavior field of marketing more so than economics — which is a much more “strict” field.

      Whatever the case, your stance still doesn’t make sense to me, even though you justify it; we discussed this on previous pages of this thread.

    • #39215
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @: Cactus:

      “What Pontiac loyalist need is a well formulated plan for bringing Pontiac back from the dead. Going around stomping your foot and demanding a Pontiac resurrection like a 6 year-old is not accomplishing anything.”

      Xtactly. This is the kind of stuff that requires long hard thought to flesh out the challenges of returning Pontiac. I’m all for doing the math and finding out if it’s possible, provided we’ve done the work to find data that shows how from the day Pontiac was axed we could have a working business case for it to be brought back.

      It’s not as simple as badge jobs and white-faced speedometers. It’s about trying to make the brand contribute to GM’s bottom line with captivating products that get lots of people buying, not just a handful who buy into the brand because of the name. You gotta make people want to have the Pontiac over the Chevy.

      As for Firebird619’s woefully unsubstantated rumor of a defeated Obama serving as the linchpin of Pontiac’s return, I ask ‘did the same person who fed you that nonsense also tell you that the earth is the centre of the universe?’

    • #39216
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: That wasn’t Firebird619; that was me. And don’t you think the geocentric theory is just a tad bit more outlandish than the possibility that Obama doesn’t want Pontiac back because it wasn’t a “green” brand?

    • #39217
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      First, all appoligies from me to Firebird619 for any damages incured.

      There’s nothing wrong with “greeness” and Pontiac doesn’t strike me as anymore “green” than Hyundai or VW. Also, it’s probably more likely that Pontiac was cut by GM, not Obama, as even GM knew such a brand was little more than rebadges and contrubted little to their bottom line. There was always the option for a Pontiac Volt seeing how greeness is a determining factor for buyers, but even that wouldn’t have saved the brand.

      Cadillac doesn’t strike me as particularly green, yet the ELR is on it’s way. Why isn’t Obama using his god powers to shut that down? It can’t be becasue of ‘Cadillac One’, because that’s just a Chevy under it all.

      Sorry, but you can’t blame Obama and his enviromental policies for killing Pontiac.

    • #39219
      VistaChevy
      Participant

      GM has the power to bring back Pontiac.
      1). General Motors Company retained assets of defunct Pontiac rather than allowing them to fall into the liquidation company. That means GM is still in control of the Pontiac brand, therefor it would be easy to return it to market.

      2). Market holes! Right now GM has to many luxury brands and no economy brand. The problem was originally to much saturation. With Saturn, Oldsmobile, Hummer, & Saab in the grave…the best think for GM would be to revive Pontiac as a turn car for Chevrolet. Hyundai has Kia, Toyota has Scion, GM need a cheaper turn car. Pontiac need smaller, cheaper, and fuel efficient cars with some candy…a firebird, GTO who knows.

      3). Chain of dealers. GM not only already has a supply chain of dealers nationwide. But those dealers are drowning without Pontiac. Buick GMC dealers have taken a hit in volume having lost Pontiac. The value of those business and their ability to move products has fallen by the way. Those dealers have lost somewhere between 20,000 & 25,000 new car sales per month nationwide.

      It would take some time, but it is definitely the smart move to get back in the Pontiac business. They’ve got the ability to produce vehicles, a network already in place to retail them, and a product whose name is still well known.

    • #39220
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @VistaChevy: Welcome to the thread, and thank you for defending the viability of Pontiac. I’m humbled that you would support Pontiac’s return despite the “Chevy” in your user name. That’s VERY generous of you. Thank you.


      @Grawdaddy
      : I’M not personally saying that I KNOW the charge to be true. If you’ll go back to my post, you’ll see that I said something to the effect of, “I read on a post on another Pontiac-related website…” That’s an indication to everyone that it’s only something I’ve read on a thread, and PERHAPS should be taken with a grain of salt. Having said that, have YOU conclusive proof that Obama DOESN’T have it in for Pontiac? Have you proof that he had ABSOLUTELY NO PART in Pontiac’s murder AND/OR its CONTINUED absence? By the way, I have nothing personal against Obama. I’m a Democrat myself. If he’s not guilty, I certainly have no intention of framing him. This is about PONTIAC.

    • #39223
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @VistaChevy: I’ve re-read your post, and it sounds even better than it did the first time I read it! You’ve generated a post that’s cogent and powerful. Having read it again, this is what I have to say to GM: The emperor has no clothes! I MIGHT be prepared to say that Pontiac’s murder was “necessary” AT THE TIME. What a difference less than three years make. NOW GM (and Buick/GMC dealers) NEED Pontiac. I’m willing to let bygones be bygones, GM. Now BRING PONTIAC BACK.

    • #39225
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      “Having said that, have YOU conclusive proof that Obama DOESN’T have it in for Pontiac? Have you proof that he had ABSOLUTELY NO PART in Pontiac’s murder AND/OR its CONTINUED absence?”

      Yes. Obama himself didn’t make any decisions about GM’s operations, strategy, or otherwise. There’s no conspiracy theory and no one has “it in for Pontiac”.

      Here’s what happened: clear-minded business people looked at the numbers and realized that it was time to drop what should have been dropped about 10 years ago. Do you have reason to suspect otherwise?

    • #39226
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      Of course I don’t have any proof.

      I didn’t even vote for Obama.

      I’m not even American.

      *puts on shades and struts about*

    • #39227
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Yes, I do. After visiting countless Pontiac-related websites on a regular basis, I do. Now, it’s true that you can’t believe everything you hear (or read on the internet). But if people are going to blow-off a claim made on the internet, I think it’s incumbent upon them to PROVE that the claim is wrong. Take YOUR post, for example. YOU say Obama had no part. I’ve read several posts on other websites that say he did. Am I to simply ASSUME that YOU are right, and not the other posters?

      Furthermore: There seems to be a persistent problem on this thread regarding the popularity of Pontiac. When I Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, I get a veritable HOST of websites. To me, that speaks VOLUMES about Pontiac’s popularity, and this is 2012. And YOU post that Pontiac not only DESERVED to be dropped, but should have been dropped TEN YEARS ago. I would assume Pontiac was even MORE popular THEN than it is now, almost THREE YEARS AFTER it WENT UNDER.

    • #39228
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua :

      “But if people are going to blow-off a claim made on the internet, I think it’s incumbent upon them to PROVE that the claim is wrong.”

      Nope. If you’re making the positive claim, the onus is on whoever is making the claim to prove their claim.

      There’s a famous example of your kind of reasoning and why it’s fallacious. Sagan’s ‘dragon in the garage’ example seen from both ends.

      -I have a dragon in my garage. You can’t disprove I have don’t have a dragon, therefore my claim stands.

      -I have a dragon in my garage. I must prove to you that I have one in order for my claim to stand.

      Pick which one makes more sense, and you’ll find that it’s the kind of reasoning that used in courts systems and by every other clear-headed person on earth.

      Does the phrase “innocent until proven guilty” ring a bell? Well the same holds with your Pontiac rumors; “baseless until proven valid”.

      Nobody, absolutely nobody, on GMA, FA, other automotive fourms, on Mars, or at the other end of the universe is obligated to prove your claims wrong when you can’t even show them to be right.

      You’re making the positive claim. You provide the positive evidence.

      If you’re going to make claims without evidence, we can dismiss your claims without evidence.

      While I’m at it:

      “YOU say Obama had no part. I’ve read several posts on other websites that say he did. Am I to simply ASSUME that YOU are right, and not the other posters?”

      The fair thing to do is to assume BOTH Mr. Luft and the ‘post on other websites’ are incorrect, and to conduct your own research and reach your own conculsions, FULLY INDEPENDANT from pro or anti Pontiac crowds. Remain subjective, not objective. Let your findings and your brain tell you what to make of Pontiac’s fate, not your heart.

      The internet is filled to rafters with personal opinions and groundless claims. You can find opinions on a Pontiac forum or even here on GMA. It doesn’t mean you should take both of them at their words.

    • #39229
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: If you will re-read my last response to you, you will see that I simply mentioned that a person on another Pontiac-related website claimed that Obama had a part. That’s all I said. I PURPOSELY phrased it that way so people would understand that I’m not offering it as irrefutable fact, but only as something to be considered. If I had intended to state the claim as an absolute fact, I would have SAID as much. Why does that permit you to simply sit-back and attack the claim, simply because someone else first merely MENTIONED the claim? We can’t have it both ways.

      Furthermore, all those Pontiac websites I find when I Google “Bring Back Pontiac” are seen through my eyes and registered in my brain. I don’t think my heart has anything to do with the large number of websites I see. Ergo, Pontiac seems to be–even now, almost three years after its murder–quite a popular brand, REGARDLESS of whether my heart wants to feel that way or not.

    • #39230
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @moanalua

      “Am I to simply ASSUME that YOU are right, and not the other posters?”

      Yes, you are. I can’t provide any articles, references, or otherwise which would make you believe the fact that the Obama administration doesn’t have a hand in running General Motors, but here are some facts:
      – There were people who were replaced at the top-management and C-levels
      – GM is partly owned by the Treasury to this day, so one would assume that the company would have a fiduciary responsibility to all shareholders (public and the Treasury)
      – But contrary to that thought process, GM does not report to the U.S. government. They report to the public shareholders, since the Treasury stake is silent

      Look, I’ve been watching and covering General Motors like a hawk over the last several years professionally. I’m sure the folks in the Pontiac forums have been doing the same. It matters what you do, what you read, who you speak to, and what you then take away and write about. You know, like a journalist. The only difference is I have a deep-rooted passion for the things we cover at GM Authority.

      “Furthermore: There seems to be a persistent problem on this thread regarding the popularity of Pontiac. When I Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, I get a veritable HOST of websites. To me, that speaks VOLUMES about Pontiac’s popularity, and this is 2012. And YOU post that Pontiac not only DESERVED to be dropped, but should have been dropped TEN YEARS ago. I would assume Pontiac was even MORE popular THEN than it is now, almost THREE YEARS AFTER it WENT UNDER.”

      I’m sure that if you Google “I want to be a millionaire” you will get even more results results than for “Bring back Pontiac”. Albeit, it doesn’t mean it will or should happen. And the fact that a website exists for a particular topic doesn’t prove its business case, viability, or reason for existence. It simply proves that people have raised the issue before.

      My question to you would be:
      1. How many of these websites are actively?
      2. How many active users do these websites have?
      3. More importantly, how many of these members will actually buy a Pontiac?

      Pontiac, for the last 15 years, was a lame excuse for an auto brand/automaker that sucked life out of General Motors and was partly responsible for its financial troubles that led to the restructuring in 2009/2008. The same is true of Saturn and Saab. And I’m afraid the same is true of GMC today — but that may be a topic for another thread entirely.

    • #39231
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Perhaps you should take a gander at those Pontiac-related websites yourself, and get a feel for them. Just because not everyone posts on a regular basis like you and I, doesn’t mean that they no longer care for Pontiac, or wouldn’t purchase a new one if the brand were revived. Furthermore, obviously: It wouldn’t be ONLY the members of those websites who would “actually buy a Pontiac.” It’s ridiculous to assume that no one aside from those members would purchase a Pontiac.

      “It simply proves that people raised the issue before.” What does it tell us, when that many people “raised the issue before”? And again, those are ONLY the potential Pontiac buyers who became members.

      I take you at your word that you’ve watched GM like a hawk. Does that mean others, on other websites, haven’t?

    • #39233
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      So, google can serve as an impromt national census simply by finding similar automotive forum thread topics, and then looking at the number of posters in those threads. Why actually go about and conduct subjective research when you can just see whatever spealized banter crops up whenever you google “Bring Back Pontiac” and take it as a reliable measure of the number of people who really want pontiac to return.

      BTW, googling “Bring Back Pontiac” (quotations) only nets 34.5K hits. On the other hand, “”screw Pontiac” (quotations) nets 96.6K hits.

      Your ‘google argument’ really doesn’t have much going for it.

    • #39235
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: I beg to disagree. There is NO WAY you can shake a stick at the websites you get when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”. I never said that this was a rigorous, scientific, foolproof method of assessing Pontiac’s popularity (and hence the demand for the brand). If there WERE such a method, we wouldn’t be having this discussion about the viability of a revived Pontiac brand, as such discussion would be moot. In Economics, this state of uncertainty is said to be precipitated by “imperfect information.” Still, there is no way you can shake a stick at those websites. They DO say something about the demand for Pontiac. I think it’s quite absurd that someone can look at that, and then say it “really doesn’t have much going for it”. And, we will probably CONTINUE to have this discussion UNTIL:

      1. The demand for Pontiac is definitively ascertained, OR…
      2. Pontiac returns, OR…
      3. GM ITSELF says Pontiac WON’T return. That’s GM ITSELF, not YOU or anyone else on this thread. Last I heard, GM said it “would never say never” to Pontiac.

    • #39240
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      4. GM says nothing more of Pontiac and online talk of the brands return steadily decays over time as people loose interest and simply stop caring.

      We have all the time in the world, and people do have limited attention spans nowadays.

    • #39241
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: Well, that certainly is a possibility. But I WILL say this: IF Pontiac should return, I suspect that many of those folks will spring for a Pontiac dealer. I think it was on THIS thread (I’m on so many Pontiac-related threads, I lose track) that I posited that not EVERY potential Pontiac customer is a DIE-HARD loyalist of the brand. Pontiac had all sorts of customers: Some liked the brand–that’s why they BOUGHT one–but not enough to stay active on threads like this. Still other Pontiac customers never bothered to join a thread at all. Then there are the diehards like PontiacRulz and I, and still others that fall somewhere BETWEEN those three types. Bottom line: They ALL purchased Pontiacs. There’s a difference between losing interest–and “simply stopping caring”–about staying active on Pontiac-related THREADS, and losing interest and simply stopping caring about Pontiac THE BRAND. In Economics, we could say that a “multiplier” should be applied to all those Pontiac-related websites. I.e., the folks on those threads represent but a SMALL FRACTION of folks who WOULD INDEED purchase a new Pontiac–for WHATEVER reasons–should the brand be revived.

      But you’re right, we DO have all the time in the world, and time WILL tell whether Pontiac returns.

    • #39244
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      There is one thing that I can’t understand, and you did highlight it.

      “that not EVERY potential Pontiac customer is a DIE-HARD loyalist of the brand.”

      To me, it would seem that anyone who would want Pontiac to return AND would buy a new Pontiac would be that kind of person; someone who would have a windshield banner, an older model SC/3.8 GP, or perhaps a G6 GT that they hold in high reguard. I mean there were some few fleating highpoints in Pontiac’s later years, but it isn’t exactly earthshattering features that everyone will remember, or even hype up.

      For example, for one model year there was a Cobalt SS/TC sedan. Only one year, while the coupe SS/TC sold for 3 years. Why is that important? Because a group of people even smaller than Pro-Pontiacists belive that the Cobalt SS/TC sedan is one of the greatest sport compacts of the last 5 years and are angry at GM for not offering it alongside the coupe. They are free to feel so, but will it matter in the long run? No. That model and bodystyle will be forgotten to and they will eventually have to move on. They need a contingency plan if they are going to dig their heels in and hold such opinions and feelings for the long term. If the awful reality sets in and they realize they can’t get what they want, it will hurt very badly.

      I guess what I’m saying is that perhaps someday in the future, you’re going to realize that the likelyhood of Pontiac returning is very unlikely and you’ll have to make a hard choice. You’ll weigh the value of Pontiac as a whole versus wether or not it’s worth trying to justify holding the brand in such high reguard in light of all the time that has passed since Pontiac was closed.

      On GMA’s blog not too long ago, there was a NASCAR post in which someone said (to the effect of) “you’re going to tell me everyone on here (GMA) isn’t a brand rooter?”. I said no; I’m just here to monitor and comment on GM’s performace.

      The same can be said for a brand like Pontiac. It’s one thing to root for a brand. It’s another thing to live inside one.

    • #39247
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy:

      1. I don’t agree that it’s “unlikely” that Pontiac will return. It’s certainly not GUARANTEED to return, but I wouldn’t say it’s “unlikely,” either.
      2. As far as I know, there’s no law against “living inside” a brand, as opposed to (merely) rooting for it.
      3. I already HAVE a contingency plan, should Pontiac not return, and I think I’ve alluded to it several times on this thread: I will take my business to a non-GM automaker when I purchase my next new vehicle. I’m already ready for “the reality to set in,” IF it comes to that.
      4. There’s no reason to assume that every diehard Pontiac loyalist “wears his heart on his sleeve.” My Trans Am has no additional Pontiac decals or stickers; only the ones it came with from the factory.

    • #39248
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      “2. As far as I know, there’s no law against “living inside” a brand, as opposed to (merely) rooting for it.”

      No, not unless you like living inside a theme park where EVERYTHING you see and do is branded in Pontiac.

    • #39249
      Cactus
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      So how long are you willing to wait for a response about Pontiac?

      Given GM’s history, they tend to wait for anniversaries before renewing a dead product. (Camaro: debut 1967, Concept debut 2006-2007. GTO debut 1964, renewed in 2004) I believe Pontiac was founded in the early-mid 1920s.

      We could be looking at a decade before we get any answers.

    • #39251
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: As a matter of fact, I WOULD like to live “inside a theme park where EVERYTHING I see and do is branded Pontiac.”


      @Cactus
      : Well, when my Trans Am gives out, I’ll purchase a new car. If GM at least gives an INDICATION that Pontiac might be revived, I might decide to replace my Trans Am with a used Pontiac. If there is NO such indication, I’ll be headed for a NON-GM auto dealer for a new car. If it takes ten years for Pontiac to return, I’d be willing to wait that long, but I’ll need to see SOME KIND of sign or announcement from GM that it might–or, better yet, WILL–return. Otherwise, I will have purchased a new, NON-GM vehicle.

    • #39252
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      In that case, you’re the epitome of your aforementioned “DIE-HARD loyalist of the brand”.

      Be prepared to die hard.

    • #39255
      pontiac04gt
      Participant

      Why should Moanalua be prepared to die hard? Pontiac could come back one day, and you would look pretty stupid with all your anti-pontiac garbage

    • #39257
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @pontiac04gt

      OR, Pontiac doesn’t return and you’ll and look “pretty stupid” with your pro-Pontiac nonsense.

      The only difference is that I’m not losing sleep over Pontiac coming back or not, nor is millions upon millions of other people.

      Tommorow’s another day for me and those millions. It’s not a day I’ll spend crafting together a “heart-tugging” email to GM where I rattle on about ‘tradition’, or a day where I obsess over the number of hits Google returns for “Bring back Pontiac”.

      I’m pretty sure Pontiac and it’s hypothetical return will be among some the furthest things from my mind tommorow.

    • #39258
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: Did pontiac04gt or I say we were losing sleep over Pontiac? Also, if there’s anyone obsessing over “the number of hits Google returns for ‘Bring back Pontiac”, it’s you. I’ve mentioned several times the many websites one finds when one Googles “Bring Back Pontiac”, but I don’t obsess over it. In fact, I don’t even know how many hits Google returns for it. Finally, just because Pontiac will be among “some of the furthest things” from YOUR mind tomorrow, doesn’t mean it will be among the furthest things from my mind, or that of pontiac04gt, for that matter.

    • #39259
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Guys, we seem to be arguing semantics and hanging on each others’ words at this point.

      Fact is, if you actually follow GM and its numerous strategies closely, you’ll realize that the revival of Pontiac is not even on the radar. There are those that want the brand to return badly, but it’s not happening. And unless GM has a wild change of direction, it’s not going to happen.

    • #39261
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Well, speaking just for myself, I’ll hold-out hope for a wild change of direction. Should that wild change of direction not be forthcoming, then when my Trans Am gives out, I’ll make a wild change of direction to a NON-GM dealer to purchase a new car.

    • #39263
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Which brings up a question for you, @Moanalua:

      I’m guessing from some of your previous messages that you don’t have a family (kids, wife, etc.). If I’m incorrect in assuming so, stop me right there. But I’ll go on anyway for the sake of going on.

      Let’s say you did have a family and you were in the market for a safe, practical, and reliable family vehicle. And let’s say that you and your significant other decided that a crossover would be the best type of car for the family.

      Would you particularly go out of your way to avoid GM and, say, a Chevy Equinox or Traverse, just to bring your anti-GM vendetta to life? Just wondering…

    • #39264
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Yes, I would. GM isn’t the only automaker building safe, practical, and reliable family vehicles. And by the way, this anti-GM “vendetta,” as you put it, will continue ONLY if Pontiac DOESN’T return. Quite frankly, I think “vendetta” is a little too strong a term. In Economics, this is referred to as an “economic sanction.” An “economic sanction” is defined as a withholding of economic rewards (in this case, revenue) from those (in this case, GM) who refuse to emit desired production activity (in this case, bringing Pontiac back into production). In Economics, this isn’t considered a vendetta. It’s about sending “market signals.” These are signals that consumers send–via their purchases–to producers of goods and services, that these producers might make adjustments to what they offer on markets. Of course, in THIS case, we’re talking about the “market” for new autos.

    • #39265
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      To reiterate — if GM made the safest (NHTSA-rated) vehicle in the segments you were shopping, you would allow an “economic sanction” to put the lives of your family at risk.

      In other news, the business world is about much more than good-ol’ economics. I’ll leave it at that.

    • #39266
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      “An “economic sanction” is defined as a withholding of economic rewards (in this case, revenue) from those (in this case, GM) who refuse to emit desired production activity (in this case, bringing Pontiac back into production).”

      Call it a sanction all you like. Pontiac is not something that the masses want, especally when you’ve tried to frame GM as an organization “who refuse to emit desired production activity”.

      Pontiac, in today’s world, simply isn’t desirable, and any kind of consumer reaction for Pontiac is far, far, far too small to impact GM and it’s day to day affairs. If calling it an “economic sanction” makes you feel better, fine, but it’s hardly making a dent in GM’s balance sheet.

      To me, the way you’ve tried to pitch “economic sanction” is like still being angry at Coke for killing ‘New Coke’ and demanding new Coke to return lest a minority of buyers stop buying from Coke…..when millions upon millions of people have given up their money for Coke classic.

      Blutly, you’re a minority consumer. Why should GM care about you and your small, costly demands?

    • #39267
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: Life is risky. You can never totally eliminate risk. I WOULD entrust my family’s safety to an automaker other than GM. It would be a stretch, wouldn’t it, to say that non-GM automakers build unsafe vehicles. Also, HOW MUCH of the BUSINESS world ISN’T about “good-ol'” ECONOMICS?


      @Grawdaddy
      : It’s seems to me that you’re presuming yourself to be the voice of God, making such provocative statements as, “Pontiac simply isn’t desirable” Does that you mean you raise zero websites when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”? And what about the Pontiac loyalists on THIS thread?. Also, I’m only ONE consumer. I never suggested that my economic sanctions alone would “make a dent in GM’s balance sheet.” However, I would assume that as a business, GM would–and perhaps should–care about car buyers’ demands. And, isn’t “small, costly demands” an oxymoron? Finally, might you not be hoisting yourself on your own petard, when you mention Classic Coke? (And how’s THAT for IRONY?) At one time, no one thought THAT would return.

    • #39268
      Angelarohr84
      Participant

      Ok I LOVE Pontiacs. And in my area of the country, there are many loyal fans! I can’t believe someone had the ignorance to say the brand wasn’t an exciting excitement division. Have you all forgotten gp was a pace car!? I don’t know what kind of cars the naysayers drive but I’d be willing to bet the majority don’t have nearly as much fun driving as those of us lucky enough to drive a pontiac! 🙂

    • #39269
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      “I can’t believe someone had the ignorance to say the brand wasn’t an exciting excitement division.”

      Spot on, @Angelarohr84. Pontiac was definitely an exciting brand. I still lust after the G3, G5, Torrent, and SV6. Even the FWD-based GP was a hoot. None of those can compare to the horrible Camaro of this day.

    • #39270
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      1.) It is becasue I am a god that I talk with such authority.

      2.) If you’re going to keep throwing up the same tired old “google hits” nonsense, as I’ve told you before, I got more hits for “screw Pontiac” than you’ll get hits for “Bring Back Pontiac”.

      Go ahead. Google “screw Pontiac” and see for yourself, that more people are glad Pontiac is gone than care for it to return.

      3.) “And, isn’t “small, costly demands” an oxymoron?” It is when you’re making cars that aren’t mainstream like the GXP’s, the Solstice, and the G8. Your demands are small when they aren’t reflected in the mainstream.

      Small volume, costly to make; small costly demands of a minority consumer

      4.) It was a simple analolgy that went over your head. You’re missing the bigger picture. New coke was Pontiac. Classic is everything else at GM. The people demanding for the return of new Coke are the losers and those who think they are somehow empowered by your “economic sanctions”.

      No, the word you’re looking for is not “economic sanctions”, it’s “protesting”. You’re protesting GM because they won’t make unwanted SV6’s and horry-old G5’s.

      Better go get a tent for your occupy RenCen movement.

    • #39273
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy:

      1. Oh, you ARE a god? Care to show us your credentials?
      2. I have no interest whatever in the “screw Pontiac” websites. Furthermore, I’m not talking about “google hits.” I’m talking about the number of websites oriented towards bringing Pontiac back.
      3. I’m afraid that what went over YOUR head is that you stuck your foot in your mouth, by mentioning a product (Classic Coke) that RETURNED after being murdered. Furthermore, how many people are demanding the return of New Coke, as compared to those demanding the return of Pontiac?
      4. Yes, I AM protesting. An economic sanction IS a form of protest. By the way, it also IS a form of empowerment.
      5. Isn’t it kind of moronic to imply that the GXP, the Solstice, and the G8 were mainstream cars? Of COURSE they weren’t. They were intended for niche buyers. Pontiac was versatile, offering vehicles that appealed not only to the mainstream buyer.


      @Angelarohr84
      : Welcome to the thread. Always nice to have another Pontiac supporter.

    • #39274
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: Correction. You DIDN’T say that the GXP, Solstice, and G8 were mainstream. Misread that part of your post. The fact remains, however, that Pontiac tried to be versatile, offering vehicles to both mainstream and niche buyers.

    • #39275
      Brian_E
      Participant

      I haven’t commented in a while, but I’ve still been following this thread.
      It is undoubtedly a spirited debate, but I’m curious:

      @ Moanalua & Grawdaddy: What are you two trying to accomplish?
      Graw, do you realize that no amount of reasoning is going to change how Moanalua feels about the loss of Pontiac? Its apparent by his tenacity on several forums, including this one, that he is thinking with his heart on this. If you’re trying to convince him that Pontiac returning is a lost cause, than is it possible that you’re argument otherwise is a lost cause as well?

      Moanalua, do you realize that no amount of heartfelt discussion is going to change the facts as Grawdaddy sees them? He has repeatedly brought forth statistics and evidence to contrast with your views. Do you believe that you will change his mind?

      Guys, you both are arguing from two disparate worldviews. And now the discussion has devolved down to semantics and tearing apart the words used instead of focusing on the point and the understanding you’re trying to convey.

      So what are you two trying to prove? That Pontiac should return? You each have proven yourselves right. And both of you adamantly believe the other is wrong, and are unwilling to concede that the others’ point of view is untenable. It seems like you’re at an impasse.

      A very wise man once asked: “What is Truth?”
      Another respected man has been attributed to this question: “Who is the greater fool? The fool, or the person foolish enough to argue with the fool?”
      (I don’t claim to know the answer to any of those questions.) 😉

    • #39279
      chevtothemax
      Participant

      i just think its too bad had the held in there for a couple more years boom trans-am.
      although i agree with chevys more performance based now how would the pontiacs be different. i just think its been gone for too long if they would have brought it back when they brought back the camaro it would have worked but its too late now. oh and lex definately agree with bringing back hummer and make it a competitor for jeep

    • #39280
      chevtothemax
      Participant

      sorry didnt read full post before posting this^ however its true. and way to go Brian_E great way to dissolve an argument i applaude you

    • #39290
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Brian_E: All I’m trying to do is defend the cause of reviving Pontiac. If someone tries to attack that cause, then as a Pontiac loyalist I feel obliged to defend it. If you’ll re-read my posts, my concern is not so much to change Grawdaddy’s mind, as it is to defend Pontiac. Grawdaddy is entitled to his opinions/beliefs, but when he gets on this thread and uses those opinions/beliefs to denigrate Pontiac (and the effort to revive the brand), then again, I feel obliged to respond. I.e., I’m not trying to challenge Grawdaddy so much as I am trying to defend Pontiac. If there’s anything I’m trying to “prove,” it’s that Pontiac should be revived. I’m not necessarily trying to suggest that Grawdaddy’s position is untenable; obviously, other people share his position. What I AM suggesting is that my position is just as tenable, and obviously, others share my position.


      @chevtothemax
      : I prefer to see it as a discussion rather than an argument.

    • #39293
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      ^ What Moanalua said, but with my name and his swapped as neeeded.

      If anything, Moanalua is doing his part just fine.

      We both might run out of steam, or we both might invoke Godwin’s law, or we might reach a conclusion; be it an agreement or agreeing to disagree. Heck, we might even go around in circles a few times.

      I don’t think any of us are truly suffering in this thread or outside in the real world.

    • #39296
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: Re Godwin’s Law, I have no intention of calling you a Nazi.

    • #39297
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      Me neither. Although I’m not sure mentioning Godwin’s law or mentioning the mechanics of Godwin’s law counts.

      We may have screwed ourselves.

    • #39298
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Wow when I made this thread I really didnt anticipate it getting this much attention but it has which is cool. To bad there are so many people on here who seem to have a personal grudge against the Pontiac brand. I think it’s cause ya’ll are jealous that Pontiacs were cooler than your beloved Chevrolets. Anyway, i am also glad that there are as many PONTIAC suporters on here as well. Ya’ll Chevy guys can say whatever you want but us Pontiac peeps arent going anyewhere. go ahead and close down the discussion Alex or whatever your name is…idc. People like Alex and Grawfatty make me mad because they don’t like Pontiac and they forget that there a LOT of people who love Pontiac and will always love Pontiac. Alex, Grawfatty….I just want you to know that Pontiac runs deep and if it ever comes back I’m going to come on this site again and laugh laugh laugh at yall and say PONTIACS BACK!! PONTIAC RUNS DEEP!

    • #39299
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Wow when I made this thread I really didnt anticipate it getting this much attention but it has, which is cool. Too bad there are so many people on here who seem to have a personal grudge against the Pontiac brand. I am glad that there are so many PONTIAC suporters on here to combat the Pontiac haters. Ya’ll Chevy guys can ignore it all you want but there are people who like and prefer the Pontiac brand and don’t want a Chevy, we want a Pontiac. There are a lot of us….but keep ignoring it and acting like Pontiac doesnt matter, ya’ll have probably been doing it for a long time. Alex, I saw in another post that you think Pontiac has brought down GM for 15 years, I can’t believe you actaully would say that. For someone who claims to know ALL about GM you sure say some stupid things….sorry just saying. I dont know of any other word to use besides stupid. I mean as an example, the 97-03 generation of Grand Prix, did that bring down GM? That generation made record sales numbers but I guess that doesnt matter right? It just brought down GM right?

    • #39300
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @PontiacRulz For starters, stop calling people names. It’s a good way to get your account suspended and/or banned. Why? Because it’s childish, silly, and takes away the already little credibility your arguments hold. Furthermore, anyone could come up a nickname for you as well. How about PontaicFools?

      Secondly, was it necessary to make two of what is almost an identical post?

      Thirdly:

      “There are a lot of us”

      How many? And so what? There were “a lot of” supporters of Hitler as well.

      “Alex, I saw in another post that you think Pontiac has brought down GM for 15 years, I can’t believe you actaully would say that. For someone who claims to know ALL about GM you sure say some stupid things….sorry just saying. I dont know of any other word to use besides stupid.”

      Where and/or when did I claim to know all about GM?

      I’ll tell you what I am: an enthusiast who just happens to cover certain parts of the industry professionally. You know, like a reporter. Or a journalist. Man, you sure do say and assume the dumbest things sometimes. See what happened there?

      What you fail to understand is that for the last 1-3 decades, Pontiac — as a whole — did more bad than good for General Motors. It was a major drain on the company that resulted in a lack of focus and — for the most part — lackluster vehicles. The same can be said about Saturn.

      You seem to be taking a realistic approach to business, General Motors, and Pontiac as a personal insult rather than understanding it at face value. Doing that is “stupid”.

      “I mean as an example, the 97-03 generation of Grand Prix, did that bring down GM? That generation made record sales numbers but I guess that doesn’t matter right? It just brought down GM right?”

      As a single model, probably not. But you probably don’t have the capacity of understanding what the “detraction of attention” argument really states. Let me break it down for you: anything in the world is constrained by two major factors — time and resources (money).

      This applies to any business and any person. And it applies to GM. Having Pontiac (and Saturn) in the fold resulted in contributed of the limited resources (time and money) and applying them to products that didn’t really matter (except to you and “a lot of” Pontiac die-hards). Pontiac and Saturn were not very profitable (if at all) and did not sell in high volumes, but still consumed significant resources (money — marketing, design, certain engineering steps, logistics and time). These resources could have been used to make better products for brands that truly mattered (Chevy, Caddy, Buick, and perhaps Hummer).

      Again, to answer your question — Pontiac, and the various resources contributed to it — were major contributors to (old) GM’s decline. Not the sole contributors, but major ones — mind you.

      Perhaps your should understand the realities of business — and the auto industry at large — first, before calling people stupid.

    • #39304
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Alex you and I will have to agree to disagree. Pontiac was abused by GM by being rebadged and given cars like the Aztek. If Pontiac was given the attention it deserved and what GM should have done with it, it would have sold even more than it was. Even with GM’s rebadging abuse it was still their 3rd best selling brand here in the US. People like Pontiac and you need to stop making out like people just don’t like Pontiac anymore….c’mon look what GM did to the brand, they slowly killed it, what do you expect? people to be thrilled with and be all into sub par rebadges? Let alone buy them. I didn’t think so. If GM would have put effort into the brand it would have sold better than it already was. Also, don’t compare Pontiac to Saturn because that is just too much lol.

    • #39305
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Perhaps if Pontiac made better cars that were actually competitive, then things would have been different. But that’s not what happened. So your quest to bring Pontiac back at all costs doesn’t really make sense to me, since we can all already purchase (or will be able to purchase) better vehicles than Pontiac ever made with today’s state-of-the-art Chevrolet lineup.

      Ironically, I have no agenda or stake in the return of Pontiac. I have no deep-rooted hatred or passion. I’m indifferent.

      I couldn’t care less one way or another as long as whatever decision is made makes business sense for GM and delivers value to the customer. You, on the other hand — as well as @moanalua, do have a quite the agenda and a personal interest in seeings the brand’s return.

      The difference is that I see the topic with unclouded and clear vision…

    • #39308
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: Yeah, I see your point. Someone else on this thread has already since alluded to Hitler.


      @PontiacRulz
      : Nice to hear from you again. I’ve come to the conclusion that on this thread, you are truly the heart and soul of the effort to bring Pontiac back. I’d like to have HALF the passion for Pontiac that you do. Keep carrying that torch! I’m with you.


      @alex
      : You accuse PontiacRulz and I of having an agenda, the return of Pontiac. You’re darned tootin’ we do. You seem to have a pro-Chevy agenda yourself.

    • #39309
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua In regards to me having an agenda — not really. There’s just this notion of a full-line automaker… that Chevy desperately wants to be, but somehow still isn’t.

    • #39310
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: OK. I give you credit for that.

    • #39311
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      I’ve figured you out, PontiacRulz.

      You still think in terms of inter-company rivalry; you still think it’s Chevrolet vs Pontiac. That kind of thinking went out nearly 40 years ago when GM closed divisions and made brands.

      And another thing. What the hell makes you think I’m “pro-Chevy”? When have I ever waved a bowtie flag or parraded Chevy tattoos? What makes you think that I’m a “Chevy guy” and that Pontiac’s hypothetical return would anger me?

      Here’s the fact; I wouldn’t care if GM closed Chevy tommorow AND I don’t have a “pro-chevy” agenda. Chevy is just a brand, a sales channel just like Pontiac. GM is free to close or continue Chevrolet as they see fit. My interest is in GM’s ability to make compeditive cars, not in “rooting for a brand”.

      So now what are you going to do? I don’t care about your made up war between Chevrolet and Pontiac, and you seem to be running out of steam when your best argument is to talk about Grand Prix sales from 10 years ago. Heck, you even think the Aztek was rebadged.

      Here’s today’s challange for you: of what car was the Pontiac Aztek rebadged from?

      And please don’t insult us all by confusing “rebadging” with “platform in common”.

    • #39315
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      I never said it was rebadged, never. Idk what your talking about. I said that it should have never been a Pontiac. If I had to place that car into a brand back when it was made I would have made it a GMC. Pontiac has no business making anything but cars and the Aztek only hurt the Pontiac brand.

      I’m 19 and a lot of my car buds have Chevys and a lot of my buds have Pontiacs, we always have kind of a fun rivalery jokingly. That’s all it is for me, just a fun kind of rivalery.

      Running out of steam? YOU are the one acting like this is a rivalery. Like who can keep going and exhaust the other one. It’s immature and I really hope your around my age because if not, it is sad that you are acting this way. I mostly just wanted to find people on here like me who are Pontiac people and also think the brand was done wrong and should be brought back. Take a chill pill bro.

    • #39316
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @PontiacRulz:

      And you thought you could keep me out of “your thread”.

      Then again, you are 19, so your understanding of the cruelties of life, the vast array of human frailities, and the cut-throat nature of business are not yet fully undertood.

      If your understanding is of “Chevy vs. Pontiac”, then you are missing AND ignoring the bigger picture; the bigger picture being of how insignificant Pontiac is and how unworkable it’s outdated business plan was.

      Inter-brand rivalries as you think they exist simply don’t exist. If you still think that such rivalry exists within GM, then perhaps it’s better to let you tell yourself your own appealing, self-satisfying lies. Heck, if the “rivalry” helps you sleep at night, along with your windsheild banner, who’s to stop you from beliving whatever nonsense you want to belive?

      As for my age, I really don’t think it lends value to the conversation. If it helps, yes, I’m older. But even at your age, I knew Pontiac and every other GM brand was just a thin veneer that didn’t offer a single ounce of respectibility in the global automotive industry.

      It’s just a damn shame that you’ve invested so much emotional effort into something so vacious that you’re willing to defend and oversell it in an vain attempt to validate your beliefs.

    • #39317
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Nope couldnt keep you out of my thread, couldnt get that lucky I guess.

      My Pontiac windshield banner does help me sleep at night because it looks so good 😉 Everytime I go out everyone gets to see my bad a** Pontiac and the windshield banner looks cool on it! I don’t get why your bringing it up but it sounds like my PONTIAC windshield banner bugs you so I like it even more now haha.

      Also who are you to tell me anything about myself? I understand business just fine. Please don’t act like you know me, it’s creepy.

      Outdated business plan? How do you figure? I mean the Pontiac brand was done wrong with the Aztek and all the rebadges at the end but it still sold very well. I can only imagine what Pontiac would do if it was part of the “new GM”. It’s not outdated at all, it’s just you man. Just because you THINK something doent make it true, hard to believe right?

      So at my age you “knew Pontiac and every other GM brand was just a thin veneer that didn’t offer a single ounce of respectibility in the global automotive industry”? Jeez you sound like you don’t like GM or somethng, like one of those people who love them Jap cars. What do you mean not respected? Who doesnt want a Mustang or a Camaro? Who didnt want a GTO or a Corvette? People have been dreaming about those cars for geneations. You have no idea what your talking about, I have no comment because what you said is just ridiculous lol. My personal opinion though….I DONT CARE what the world thinks about my Pontiac or Oldsmobile, those are good ole American brands through and through.

      Pontiac will probably never come back without the people showing GM we want it back! I’m going to try because that’s all I can do is try. If it doesnt come back it will suck but atleast i know I tried. I am very vocal about bringing the brand back and I aint going to stop. What business is it of yours anyway?

    • #39318
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      I truly believe that unless Pontiac is revived – GM will soon see an erosion in sales to both domestic and foreign competition.

      Buick and Cadillac are seeking the same market share,

      GMC is the same as Chevy – yet the “rebadging” syndrome is not seen as problematic in this instance. Why not??

      Chevy – however robust its sales – is seen as a poor man’s car. It will never shake that image.

      Pontiac has an established genetic following – my guess is at least 25 different clubs representing thousands just itching to by a new Pontiac.

      I was at a cocktail party on Friday and neighbors (all DEMS) were discussing their new car interests – whereupon they excitedly talked up the new Nissan GT-R, the Honda CR-Z, BMW X-6 and the Volvo X-60, et. al.. Not a single domestic brand entered the conversation.

      Pontiac’s new charter is there for the taking – reintroduce the line to compete head to head with all these foreign hotties. With G8 they proved they could do it. Indeed if GM can’t take this initiative and MAKE IT SUCCESSFUL – how are they going to remain viable ?

      Romney was right – the Government should have stayed out of it. Foreclosure would have allowed restructuring – new a labor relationship – sans unions – like the aforementioned foreign badges – and far reduced operating costs. Obama is foisting his ideology on the auto industry – the irony is that none of his limousine liberal lock-step followers will buy a Government Motors car !!

      Somehow even marginal brands like Suzuki,Volvo, Scion and KIA have been able to win in the automotive battleground – so can GM – with Pontiac.

      PONTIAC RUNS DEEPER !!

      PS – The new lineup must all be fuel conscious – my above opinions notwithstanding – I am an environmental progressive – believe it or not.

    • #39322
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @gcmeninser: I’m a liberal myself, but nonetheless I appreciate your strong stand for Pontiac. Obviously, we BOTH agree on this: Pontiac CAN and SHOULD return. And, no matter how liberal Obama is, I stand against him if he is against the return of Pontiac. He gave a campaign speech just last week, in which he criticized gas-guzzlers. As a musclecar guy, I own a gas-guzzler. Thank you again for your support of Pontiac!

    • #39340
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @gcmeninsr Whoa! Hold on a sec.

      “I truly believe that unless Pontiac is revived – GM will soon see an erosion in sales to both domestic and foreign competition.”

      Really? Is demand for performance vehicles increasing? I hope it is, but that’s not the case — unfortunately. I would give many things for this to swing the other way.

      “Buick and Cadillac are seeking the same market share”

      They’re not. Buick is targeting a “soft luxury” customer who doesn’t care about performance and the overall engaged driving experience. Cadillac is the opposite. With Buick and Cadillac, GM has the product to own (dominate!) the luxury segment and beat Lexus and BMW at their own game (respectively).

      “GMC is the same as Chevy – yet the “rebadging” syndrome is not seen as problematic in this instance. Why not??”

      It is seen as problematic. But there are a couple of things of note here:
      1. GMC is more profitable (reportedly — as I would dispute this).
      2. The rebadging will cease starting with the next-generation of full-sized trucks and SUVs and become better platform sharing. See here:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2010/03/rumormill-all-new-chevy-silveradogmc-sierra-to-resemble-cheyenne-concept/

      “Chevy – however robust its sales – is seen as a poor man’s car. It will never shake that image.”

      To say that there a place for such a vehicle/brand would be an understatement. It’s called a mainstream product to the tune of Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, and others. What’s wrong with that? Positioning is positioning.

      “Pontiac has an established genetic following – my guess is at least 25 different clubs representing thousands just itching to by a new Pontiac.

      I was at a cocktail party on Friday and neighbors (all DEMS) were discussing their new car interests – whereupon they excitedly talked up the new Nissan GT-R, the Honda CR-Z, BMW X-6 and the Volvo X-60, et. al.. Not a single domestic brand entered the conversation.”

      It would seem that most of the vehicles mentioned in the conversation are of the luxury type (except for the CR-V). Perhaps the fact that Cadillac is just now getting to where it needs/needed to be in building performance luxury cars to challenge the world’s best (and beat them) has to do with this… Ironically, GM outsells all of the makes and models mentioned in the conversation.

      “Pontiac’s new charter is there for the taking – reintroduce the line to compete head to head with all these foreign hotties. With G8 they proved they could do it. Indeed if GM can’t take this initiative and MAKE IT SUCCESSFUL – how are they going to remain viable ?”

      With what foreign hotties? Performance luxury (BMW) is Cadillac’s turf. Volvo doesn’t need competing with — it has a hard enough time selling more than 5,000 cars a month and making a profit.

      What foreign hotties would a newly-reborn Pontiac compete with? Is this something that’s not attainable via a couple of “passion sub-brand” Chevys?

      “Romney was right – the Government should have stayed out of it. Foreclosure would have allowed restructuring – new a labor relationship – sans unions – like the aforementioned foreign badges – and far reduced operating costs. Obama is foisting his ideology on the auto industry – the irony is that none of his limousine liberal lock-step followers will buy a Government Motors car !!”

      Puhlease. Let’s not even get politics involved in this, because it’s entirely irrelevant and pointless. Nobody is foisting anything on anyone — the “government” has no hand in running any automaker, including GM and/or Chrysler.

      And for the record, Obama prefers a Shelby GT500 and a Camaro ZL1. So does Biden:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/09/vice-president-joe-biden-loves-him-some-cadillac-cts-v/

      “Somehow even marginal brands like Suzuki, Volvo, Scion and KIA have been able to win in the automotive battleground – so can GM – with Pontiac.”

      How is Suzuki or Scion winning? How about Volvo? Suzuki and Volvo haven’t been profitable for the last 3-4 years… Scion is an experiment that will probably not be around in 5-10 years.

      If anything or anyone is winning, it’s Ford and GM. Both are making the best products on the market (yes, on the market) and both are making money hand over fist.

    • #39341
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: GM’s sales are down 6% from last year. GM is the only automaker of the Big Three that suffered a decrease in sales from last year.

    • #39342
      chevtothemax
      Participant

      i fully agree with alex on this. yes it is sad that pontiac went under, at first i wonded actually why they kept buick and not pontiac. but it happened and three months or so after, when they started advertising for the new cars, i fully understood.
      Chevy; mainstream, with some sportiness
      Buick;soft, comfortable
      GMC,rugged
      Caddilac;premium
      now i can see chevy moving more to a sporty side with trims and mabey models (code 130r/tru 140s anyone) with this revelation (wrong word but whatever) pontiac wasn’t relevent anymore

    • #39343
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua That’s year over year in January. Sales were up on a YOY basis in February by 1.1 percent.
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/03/by-the-numbers-gm-february-sales-up-1-1-percent/

      YOY sales by month tell very little of the whole story due to seasonality and incentives. A more relevant metric is YOY on a yearly basis.

    • #39344
      Vic1212
      Participant

      or how about just make pontiac competitive to Dodge.

    • #39347
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: You’re correct. That 6% figure is YOY for January.


      @chevtothemax
      : I beg to fully disagree. I’d like to see PONTIAC return and assume the sporty tag.


      @Vic1212
      : EXACTLY. I’ve posted on this thread that Dodge seems to be assuming the sport/performance role at Chrysler Group, that Pontiac did at GM. I’d like to see GM revive Pontiac and sic it on Dodge.

    • #39348
      Vic1212
      Participant

      I’m pretty sure there are a lot of people who has a G8 and the traded in for a Charger.

    • #39349
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Vic1212 Not that many, since the G8 didn’t sell more than 20,000 units to begin with.

    • #39350
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      “sportiness” is dead. Go big or go home. It’s got to be full on “sport”, not half-ass “sportiness” or “sporty”.

      There will be people who want “sports” cars, but they are going to have to pay dearly for it. As usual, the stubborn will scoff at turbo 4’s, but it’s likely as affordable as many will ever obtain/achieve.

      The days of affordable muscle (re: V8’s and RWD) are dead. If you want a V8, you’re going to have to pay a premium.

      And “themed” brands are dead. Pontiac couldn’t work it. Dodge, however, repurposed itself and sells in volume; something Pontiac could never do while trying to be “sporty”.

    • #39351
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: If Pontiac has to return under your formula, I’m all for it. I’m for ANY formula that brings Pontiac back. Yes, I’m a musclecar guy, but if Pontiac can’t return on V8 musclecars alone, then I’d be perfectly happy to see Pontiacs that are turbocharged four-bangers. Themed brands are dead? Then let Pontiac return and re-purpose ITself and sell in volume. Let Pontiac do what Dodge did; I don’t care, as long as Pontiac returns. Also, I think there’s something else you should consider: Perhaps the reason that Dodge “sells in volume” is that it doesn’t have intracorporate competition, as Plymouth was shut down eleven years ago. Pontiac had to deal with intracorporate competition from Chevy.

    • #39352
      pontiac04gt
      Participant

      I agree with Moanalua…obviously. I think its funny how grawdaddy pretents to not care that much about his cause, yet he’ll go out and write an essay on here saying why pontiac should be left 6 feet under…

    • #39353
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Pontiac04gt So you find it funny that a person is actively stating his opinions? Interesting…

      I wonder how far this thread and overall course of discussion would have gone if it were just the “Pro-Pontiackers” participating. I’d imagine something like this:

      “Dude, Pontiac is awesome. It should come back.”

      “It absolutely should. I will personally never buy another GM product if Pontiac doesn’t return. I’m an economist and I vote with my dollar!”

      “GM will die if it doesn’t bring back the Red Arrow. There will be revolts. Tea Party FTW!”

      “Yes. What he said.”

      Can you guess who is who in the discussion above?

      My guess is that this wouud have stopped at page 2, maybe 3. But forget all that and fair tell me the following: how far will one get in life if all one hears is one-sided arguments?

      Both sides of the coin are important for healthy, intelligent, and constructed discussion… And I’m thankful for our ability to do just that here, among other places.

    • #39354
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @pontiac04gt:

      “grawdaddy pretents to not care that much about his cause”

      Wait, I have a cause I’m fighting for? I thought that the only thing I’ve made clear is that I don’t feel it’s feaseable to bring Pontiac back.

      I hope you’re not suggesting that my ’cause’ is “pro-Chevy” even though I’ve already said I’M NOT “pro-Chevy” and that I was in favour of GM making the best cars it can irrespective of what badge those cars bare when they leave their factorys.

      It’s an forum debate/discussion. It’s not a damn war where I have a “cause” that absolutely MUST reign supreme over everyone else after I have laid waste to them.

    • #39355
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: ‘Fraid I’ll have to disagree. If GM ISN’T building vehicles that bear the PONTIAC badge, I don’t care HOW good those vehicles are. Also, we WON’T know definitively that it’s not feasible to bring Pontiac back, UNTIL we know DEFINITIVELY that there ISN’T adequate demand for the brand, correct? I prefer to think that there IS.

    • #39356
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      I guess were back to square one, baby. B-)

    • #39358
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Attention Pontiac loyalists: The BringPontiacBack.org website was updated today. The update has what might be good news for our cause, but Pontiac isn’t out of the woods (or, should I say, out of the grave) just yet.

    • #39364
      Vic1212
      Participant

      i hope they do but i kinda doubt it

    • #39365
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Vic1212: Yeah, all we can do is hope. What I’m ALSO hoping is that if we keep standing for Pontiac on threads like THIS one, perhaps Pontiac loyalists who cruise these threads (but who might not get ON the threads and POST) might get inspired, and keep the flame for Pontiac burning.

    • #39373
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      Conversely, it is entirely possible that said Pontiac loyalist could get on these forums, read and not post, and say “What the hell am I doing with me life?”, and summarily trade in the worn and beaten G3 for a bicycle.

      Gotta keep that flame burnin’!

    • #39383
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: I meant, keep the PONTIAC flame burning. I know from another thread, on another website, that people sometimes cruise threads without posting. I’m assuming that many–if not most–people who cruise Pontiac-related threads (except for the “Screw Pontiac” threads) are Pontiac loyalists.

    • #39391
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      I meant, keep the ANTI-PONTIAC flame burning. I know from another thread, on another website, that people sometimes cruise threads without posting. I’m assuming that many–if not most–people who cruise Anti-Pontiac-related threads (except for the “Bring Back Pontiac” threads) are Anti-Pontiac.

    • #39392
      pontiac04gt
      Participant

      im all about hearing your lame arguments about why pontiac should be left dead, i have been for the past 24 pages. but its getting old, i dont get why you want a non-pontiac gm. i asked that question before and i didnt really get a straight answer. all you do is bring up pontiacs low points, and yes there were too many, especially towards the end. but i want a new pontiac to arrive, one that makes affordable sports/muscle cars that the public can enjoy, thats what i want from pontiac because chevy/buick/gmc/cadillac isnt giving that to me rite now.

    • #39393
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      “im all about hearing your lame arguments about why pontiac should be left dead, i have been for the past 24 pages. but its getting old,”

      Why don’t you just come clean and admit that there were too many words for you to read and you lost interest; as I’m sure I’ve left dotted about the reasons why Pontiac was lame and why it shouldn’t come back.

      “i dont get why you want a non-pontiac gm. i asked that question before and i didnt really get a straight answer.”

      Okay, lets see what you want and I tell you why it won’t work.

      “i want a new pontiac to arrive, one that makes affordable sports/muscle cars that the public can enjoy,”

      Muscle cars are dead, cost too much to make, and aren’t affordable for the average joe. In the face of rising gas and insurance prices, cars are increasingly being seen as just objects of transportation and not as extentions of one’s body. The demand for performance cars hasn’t faded out altogether (therein it demands a premium as commanded by automakers), but performance nowadays cetainly takes a back seat to fuel efficiency, reliability, safety, initial cost, residual value, insurance rate, and other demands…..demands that don’t include performance cars.

      Pontiac, by contrast with today’s demands, was using a business model from 40+ years ago, when all of the above critera hardly mattered. Of course, a business plan like Pontiac’s would appeal to you, but you are a minority consumer with demands that place performance at or near the top. In compairson to the majority of consumers nowadays, your demands simply don’t matter.

      There’s your answer. Please actually read it and not glance over it.

    • #39396
      pontiac04gt
      Participant

      how are you going to tell me muscle cars dead? are your serious or joking? i cant even tell anymore. every other car and driver or motortrend mag i get has a zl1 camaro, a 2013 shelby gt500 or a charger/challenger srt8 on the front cover. muscle cars are huge. srt is even thinking about bringing back the barracuda. im just talking about muscle cars here, not even performance cars as a whole. obviously performance cars are in because cadillac, and buick both scrapped their old man reputadion in favor of a younger, sportier image. i can tell your not a car guy because you think everyone should be driving in a shoebox with wheels to get from point a to point b. you probly think its a good idea if we just scrapped cars alltogether and ride around in wheelchairs with batteries. thats why your lame and shouldnt even be posting on this fourm, because you have no taste in cars. im pretty sure toyota has a section in their fourms about the new prius line, maybe you would fit in better there. because your only friend here is alex.

    • #39397
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @pontiac04gt:

      “car and driver or motortrend mag i get has a zl1 camaro, a 2013 shelby gt500 or a charger/challenger srt8 on the front cover. muscle cars are huge”

      Those aren’t even muscle cars, those are pony cars.

      “obviously performance cars are in because cadillac, and buick both scrapped their old man reputadion in favor of a younger, sportier image.”

      Hence why they command a premium. Because the average buyer just wants reliable, affordable transportation. If they want more, Cadillac and Buick are there to serve the demand of a few.

      “i can tell your not a car guy”

      Can you now? A few words from someone you hardly know and think you have it all figured out?

      “because you think everyone should be driving in a shoebox with wheels to get from point a to point b.”

      Or rather that is what historic consumer trends have shown. People see cars as tools of transportation arising from their NEEDS and not as an object of consumer demand based on DESIRES.

      Feel the weight those two words I’ve capitalized for you: NEEDS and DESIRES.

      Basic transportaion is a need for many. 150hp 4-pot FWD compacts satisfiy a vast range of people’s basic NEED for transportation and at difference price points AND in nearly every automotive market on earth.

      Performance cars are a desire for a few. 450hp V8 RWD large coupes satisfy a tiny fragment of car buyers DESIRES in select markets around the world. Their price keeps them out of the hands of many and their shortcomings make them undesireable to even fewer people. As such, their R&D costs keep them well and truly beyond any hope of making them affordable for the masses.

      “you probly think its a good idea if we just scrapped cars alltogether and ride around in wheelchairs with batteries.”

      No. I just think that in the future, cities will do away with cars or have little need for them as city populations continue to increase. Over half the people on earth live in cities, and nobody is going to put up with gridlock for much longer. What this means for GM in the long term is that they need to become a transportation company, not a car company. But that’s another topic for another time.

      “thats why your lame and shouldnt even be posting on this fourm, because you have no taste in cars.”

      Said they guy who thinks Pontiac and its fabulous G3 should come back.

      Furthermore, I don’t really much care if Mr. Luft agrees with me or not. It’s not something that I or him are losing sleep over, and I very much doubt that he cares either. Same deal with Moanalua, but even I know he’s not going to keep bad blood over a disagreement with me on a car forum.

      What this shows is that you’re getting “butt hurt” because I’ve poured cold water on your outdated worldview. And since you can’t exercise emotional stability, you’ve decided to lash out like a toddler who’s thrown his toys and broken them.

      So here’s the best thing you can do right now, hotshot. Put together a working argument for Pontiac that fits the 21st century and not the mid 20th century. Make it work and make it meet the needs and demands of people today, not from 50 years ago.

      Because I really don’t think you have it in you to defend Pontiac.

    • #39398
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @Pontiac04GT What is this about friends I hear? Is there a point behind that?

      The sports car market in general is shrinking. Muscle cars, pony cars, sports cars, super cars… whatever class you look at, sales are no longer what they used to be.

      People are buying transportation, plain and simple. You don’t need a muscle car for that. Or a sports car. You need a 120 horsepower Chevy Spark.

      I’m a proud owner of several “sports cars” but I can afford to pay the pretty penny for them. Most other buyers can’t and frankly don’t need to.

      It’s not about being or not being a car guy; it’s about reality.

    • #39399
      DigitalSaturns
      Participant

      I’d take Saturn back in a second. Then I’d buy a new Redline Sky and get to deal with Saturn stores not the who cares GM stores I’ve been putting up with for the last couple years. Yet Saturn is dead along with Pontiac and all the pissing and moaning on this site isn’t going to change it.

    • #39400
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy, @wbodyfan: I’ve made it clear many times before on this thread that I’m a musclecar guy. However, I’m not insisting that Pontiac return as a musclecar brand, necessarily. I’ve also made it clear that I’m in favor of ANY “personality” that Pontiac might return with. I don’t care what Buick, Chevy, or Cadillac are offering. I want a PONTIAC, and if GM won’t revive the brand, I will take my business to a non-GM automaker. It’s just as simple as that. Grawdaddy: What makes you think pontiac04gt “doesn’t have it in him” to defend Pontiac? Seems to me that he does. He’s stood-up for Pontiac quite a few times already. And you’re right, I don’t have any bad blood with you despite the fact that we disagree about whether Pontiac should return. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to step-in here and defend pontiac04gt, as he is a fellow Pontiac loyalist who–like me–is trying to defend the brand and see it return.


      @DigitalSaturns
      : What makes you so certain that if enough people “piss and moan,” Pontiac won’t return? That “pissing and moaning” represents MARKET DEMAND. By the way, there’s a lot more “pissing and moaning” for Pontiac on other Pontiac-related threads, on other websites.

    • #39401
      DigitalSaturns
      Participant

      I say go to those pontiac websites and join in. and leave those that don’t want to hear it be.

    • #39402
      chevtothemax
      Participant

      @Moanalua i had to laugh at that you said you don’t want any gm brand unless its pontiac (chevy being the closest thing to a pontiac you can buy now) but you’re willing to go to another completely unrelated manufacturer and buy something from them that to me doesn’t make sense.

    • #39406
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      Because when pontiac04gt typed the following:

      “i can tell your not a car guy because you think everyone should be driving in a shoebox with wheels to get from point a to point b. you probly think its a good idea if we just scrapped cars alltogether and ride around in wheelchairs with batteries. thats why your lame and shouldnt even be posting on this fourm, because you have no taste in cars. im pretty sure toyota has a section in their fourms about the new prius line, maybe you would fit in better there. because your only friend here is alex.”

      It suggest to me that he doesn’t have a damn clue about the realities of the auto industry. He’s just lashing out with weak ad hominem “attacks” against me, and not those in favour of bringing back Pontiac. If I were you, I’d see him as a detriment to your cause because he’s not aware of present consumer demands…and chooses instead to be rather childish.

      He’s free to put forth a working business model, but not if he thinks he can “harm” me or catergorize me into one of his models of people who don’t care about cars (and he’s very, very wrong on that one).

      So far, he hasn’t. That’s why I don’t think he has it in him to be mature about it. That could change if he posts again.

    • #39407
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @DigitalSaturns: You think the Pontiac loyalists on THIS thread wanted to hear what YOU posted?


      @chevtothemax
      : Then let me explain it. I’m not about to give my business to a company that killed my favorite brand. Are you still laughing? Or, does it NOW make sense to you? I see nothing humorous OR nonsensical about it. In Economics, it’s called “voting with your dollar,” or, applying an “economic sanction.”


      @Grawdaddy
      : You’ve been relentlessly attacking his (and my) car brand. How do you EXPECT him to react? Also, I DON’T consider him a “detriment” to the cause of reviving Pontiac. Getting an automaker to revive a brand is no easy feat. We need ALL the help we can get. Also, as far as I’m concerned, pontiac04gt’s heart is in the right place. Besides, all that would matter to GM is that he’s yet ANOTHER customer that it will lose, unless it revives Pontiac. It doesn’t really matter what pontiac04gt knows or doesn’t know about the auto industry; what DOES matter is that he’s a PAYING CUSTOMER. Rest assured, all that GM cares about is whether he’ll purchase a new GM vehicle. In Economics, we say that in a “market economy” such as ours, “The customer is KING.”

    • #39409
      chevtothemax
      Participant

      true it is economic sanctions but if you love pontiac so much i don’t understand why you can’t just buy a sportier chevy wich is exactly what pontiac was. save for a few models like the solstice and g8 but other then that they were the exact same. so if you want a pontiac so much get a sporty chevy and replace the bowtie with the red arrow and ghange the name on the back to something that was pontiacs version of the car or cars successor

    • #39411
      DigitalSaturns
      Participant

      @DigitalSaturns: You think the Pontiac loyalists on THIS thread wanted to hear what YOU posted?

      Go buy a Hyundai then, and stop cluttering this forum with Pontiac thats dead and never to return.

    • #39414
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      It’s simple.

      In our discussion, I have never used an ad hominem attack against you, and don’t intend to.

      pontiac04gt has used an ad hominem against me.

      If you think it’s wise to bolster your cause with people like this, then your cause, no matter how small or great, is valueless.

    • #39418
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @chevtothemax: I don’t know why this is so difficult to comprehend: I want a PONTIAC. I don’t care HOW similar Chevys may have been to Pontiacs; they still WEREN’T and AREN’T PONTIACS.


      @DigitalSaturns
      : HELLO? Yes, I DO think that Pontiac loyalists on this thread wanted to hear what I posted. Why WOULDN’T they? I’m on THEIR side, defending THEIR brand, which is more than I can say for you.

      By the way, look in the mirror when you ask Pontiac loyalists not to “clutter” this forum. Who’s doing the “cluttering”? Perhaps you’d like to take the precaution of going to the question that STARTED this thread. It’s, “Who thinks it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again?” If you would like FURTHER guidance as to who’s “cluttering” this thread, post the question to PontiacRulz. He’s the one who STARTED this thread. I think he’ll enlighten you, in no uncertain terms, about precisely WHO is doing the “cluttering” here.


      @Grawdaddy
      : Yes, I appreciate that you don’t use ad hominem attacks against me. However, I still say that pontiac04gt’s heart is in the right place, and besides, I value him as an ally in the effort to revive Pontiac. Also, I don’t wish to put myself in the position of saying who is “qualified” to post on this thread. If I recall correctly, alex said that people on this thread should be able to state their opinions freely.

    • #39419
      DigitalSaturns
      Participant

      Ok Leys take a vote

      “Who thinks it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again?”

    • #39420
      DigitalSaturns
      Participant

      I do not

    • #39421
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster
    • #39423
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @DigitalSaturns: As you might imagine, I DO think it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again.

    • #39424
      RjION
      Participant

      Glory days

      We should never stop talking about Saturn and Pontiac. Oldsmobile should also be talked about. That doesn’t mean they will or should come back.

      “From reading on the net
      Pontiac sales in 2007 were 205,448
      Saturn sales in 2007 were 240,091

      Maybe GM should have merged these brands back in 2003 or evan as far back when Oldsmobile went away.”

    • #39430
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua:

      Fair enough. We’ll see how the poll turns out.

    • #39432
      Moanalua
      Participant

      First of all, I think alex deserves credit for creating that survey; I think he did a good job. I didn’t vote, but I left a comment.


      @RjION
      : I second your motion that we should never stop talking about the car brands you mentioned. Obviously, I don’t know what the future holds, and Grawdaddy may be right: I might eventually tire of pushing and posting for Pontiac’s return. But at the same time, THAT’S assuming that Pontiac DOESN’T return, or at least that it doesn’t return any time “soon,” and we can’t be certain of THAT, either. And no matter how alex’s poll turns out, it doesn’t/shouldn’t prevent us from continuing to post on THIS thread. Again, the thread question is, “Who thinks it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again?” I see nothing in that question that suggests people should STOP posting about Pontiac at any point.

    • #39434
      Brian_E
      Participant

      — On the polldaddy website, Moanalua wrote:

      Pontiac outsold Buick two-to-one in the US, yet GM murdered Pontiac instead of Buick simply because Buick sold in China. I’m a little unsatisfied with that. If Buick sold well in China, but sold poorly in the US compared to Pontiac, I would have preferred that GM sell Buicks ONLY IN CHINA, and keep selling Pontiacs in the US and Canada. I’m not entirely thrilled that–in effect–CHINA dictated to GM that Pontiac should be murdered. It wouldn’t have been so bad if Buick were close to Pontiac in sales here in the US, but it wasn’t. Here we had an AMERICAN automaker (GM), shutting-down iconic AMERICAN brand Pontiac rather than sister brand Buick, even though Pontiac was outselling Buick two-to-one in the AMERICAN market. And why? Because Buick sold in CHINA. Does anyone else feel that something is wrong with this picture? Does this stick in anyone else’s craw, as it sticks in mine?

      –My response:

      Moanalua,

      When you keep repeating the same disproven reasoning based on sales volume without taking into consideration the obvious differences in profit margin between the Pontiac and Buick, it doesn’t help your credibility. Surely an Econ major such as yourself fully understands the concept of Return on Investment and can accept that the RoI for Pontiac was nearly negative at the end of its run due to the extreme sales incentives GM had to offer to move the volume. Even a great car like the G8 wasn’t meeting sales targets. It’s simply a reflection of the overall market. GM kept it afloat as long as they could, but market conditions and buyer habits have changed. Blame GM if you want, but they tried to keep the excitement alive for 30 years after they went to corporate engines. The ‘real’ Pontiac has been dead since then. Combining the buyer habits, market conditions, and the current corporate structure of GM, there is no place for Pontiac that is economically viable.

      To avoid multiple overlapping discussions, I’ll repost this in the GMA forum, if you want to continue the conversation.

      …and continue….

    • #39438
      chevtothemax
      Participant

      @Moanalua i still don’t understand you say you want a pontiac not a sporty chev no matter how alike they are yet you’re willing to buy from another brand completely. :-/

    • #39443
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Brian_E: Of COURSE I understand return-on-investment. My point was that Pontiac was TWICE AS POPULAR here in the US. Pontiac was an AMERICAN brand, it was ICONIC (built the first musclecar), had a LARGE, LOYAL following, AND–which I neglected to mention on the poll thread–had FIVE models to Buick’s THREE, AND had a sport truck possibly in the works. Yet, IN EFFECT, CHINA dictated that Pontiac–rather than Buick–should be shut down. As I mentioned in the poll thread, I would have hoped that some kind of accommodation could have been made: Sell Buick in China only, continue selling Pontiac in the US and Canada (where it was the #1 American brand.) By the way, I have seen that same idea posted by others, on other Pontiac-related threads.

      chevtothemax: Hello? AGAIN: I’m willing to buy from not just another BRAND completely, but another AUTOMAKER completely. In Economics, we call this an “economic sanction.” GM murdered my favorite brand, therefore I will apply an “economic sanction” against GM by purchasing from a NON-GM automaker, when it’s time for a new car. Hopefully this will FINALLY sink-in? It’s not really rocket science.

    • #39445
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @Maonalua

      You say so understand RoI, but you’ve offered no demonstratable evidence in support.
      Rank the following brands in order of decreasing RoI:
      Pontiac, Chevrolet, Saturn, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Hummer.
      If you do, then you should understand clearly why the top four remain and the bottom three were discontinued.

      The Buick comparison is not valid. By your logic equating popularity with sales, than any brand selling less than Pontiac was less popular and should have gotten the axe instead. That also suggests since Cadillac was ‘less popular’ than Pontiac it should have been discontinued, too. I’m sure you and many others would be quick to point out that Cadillac reaches out to a different set of customers and different market.
      Here’s the thing… so did/does Buick.
      Comparing Buick sales to Pontiac sales is therefore invalid because the target markets were/are different. If you want a better market comparison, compare Chevrolet to Pontiac. Now who sold more, and who had more models, and which one was more popular?
      For further evidence of the proper comparison look at the models offered in 2008-9.

      Pontiac G3 : Chevy Aveo Buick not in this market
      Pontiac G5 : Chevy Cobalt Buick not in this market
      Toyotiac Vibtrix : Chevy HHR (Both Compact Utility) Buick not in this market
      Pontiac G6 : Chevy Malibu : Buick not in this market
      Pontiac Grand Prix : Chevy Impala : Buick LaCrosse
      Pontiac G8 : Chevy Impala (?) : Buick Lucerne (?)
      Pontiac Torrent : Chevy Equinox : Buick not in this market
      (Buick moved upscale with the switch from Rendevous to Enclave in 2008)
      Pontiac Solstice : No Competitor from Chevy or Buick : Saturn Sky

      Clearly you can see that Buick was not in the same market as Pontiac and wasn’t trying to reach the same customer base with the LaCrosse, Enclave and Lucerne.
      The Lacrosse and Lucerne targeted a completely different buyer than the Grand Prix or G8.

      The G8 and Solstice really had their own market, but it was severely affected by the recession. The poor sales numbers dictated that they would have been discontinued even if the Pontiac brand limped along any further. That leaves every other Pontiac with better selling Chevy equivalent. It was not Pontiac vs. Buick It was Pontiac vs. Chevy. Going all the back to the Korean war, it has been Pontiac vs. Chevy. GTO/Chevelle SS, Firebird/Camaro, Bonneville/Impala or Caprice, Grand Prix/Monte Carlo (The Buick equivalents targeted a different demographic entirely)

      As I have said 10 pages back or so, due to increase competition from the foreign volume brands, GM was forced to up content in the Chevy products. That increased content eliminated the sales advantage for Pontiac, Saturn and Oldsmobile. Additionally, the global structure of the foreign brands also forced GM to also think globally to take advantage of economies of scale. In that case, if you still want to hold on to any last thread of a Buick comparison, the global sales must weigh as a significant influence if GM is to remain solvent. In that case, Buick sold more. GM, as an AMERICAN automaker, had to think globally. Buick is also an ICONIC brand with a larger GLOBAL following. Selling Buick in China and Pontiac in America doesn’t solve anything. Pontiac did/does not have the reputation for soft luxury like Buick. Again, different cars for different buyers. Taking ICONIC Buick out of the picture in AMERICA leaves a big gap that Lexus will gladly fill. Pontiac never was competition for Lexus.

      CHINA did not dictate that Pontiac should be shut down in any way, shape or form. The AMERICAN public decided that by their ‘economic sanctions’ of ‘voting with their dollars’ to buy more FOREIGN vehicles or Chevrolets than comparable Pontiacs.
      You can blame GM or the government all you want, but the decision was based on economics. Good luck with your sanctions against economics.

      One last thing. While I’d love to see Pontiac be able to return, economics do not justify it right now. Down the road, even if the market indicates that cars like the Solstice or G8 would sell well at a profit, the Ellesmere Plant issues plus no known precedent for reviving old brands (not models – Brands) makes it highly unlikely. Pontiac has been dead in spirit since about 1981, when they went to corporate motors, anyway.

    • #39446
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Brian_E Thank you for your common sense, straight-forward, and grounded approach to the topic. You basically summarized the global auto industry and the history of each U.S. brand within GM in one fell swoop. I’ve communicated several times to @moanalua and others here that Buick shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath as Pontiac, since Buick is 1) more profitable, 2) significantly more upscale, and 3) pursuing a totally different customer than any of the existing or past GM brands, perhaps with the exception of Olds. Compared to Pontiac, Buick makes totally different cars for different people with different values and priorities in an automobile.

      As for Buick’s popularity in China… That doesn’t really matter, since almost half of Buick sales in the country are related to one model — the Buick Excelle, which is a badged-up Chevy/Daewoo Lacetti:

      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/02/what-is-this-buick-that-sells-20000-units-a-month-in-china/

      It’s an old (archaic?) model that is on its way out. Even so, the fact is that GM would be stupid not to compete in the global soft-luxury segment that’s profitable and in high demand (as far as luxury automobiles are concerned). It just do happens that there are more Chinese buyers who love the brand than in North America, where Buick has had the displeasure of a sullied image, which I think will change in the near future.

      At the end of the day, it’s Buick vs Lexus, not Buick vs Pontiac; instead, it’s Chevy vs. Pontiac — and always has been.

    • #39448
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @Alex
      Thanks for the clarification on the Buick cars in China. That fact that the popular Excelle is to be replaced with a global platform further illustrates the value of having a global vehicle. Using the Veranos and (Opel) Astras as Excelle variants for the China market is a better use of resources that will help to leverage down the manufacturing costs globally – including US manufactured Verano’s. In this way, selling in China helps the US market.

      When I first heard the confirmation that Pontiac was to be closed, I felt alot like Maonalua. But, I also wanted to understand why. So, I dug deeper finding out information I’ve posted on this forum. It made me look deeper into what I valued in Pontiac. I realized what I love about Pontiac is not really applicable to the many of their cars offered in the past three decades. Pontiac stopped being truly unique when their engines were discontinued.

      During Pontiacs heyday in the 60’s, they had two things that Chevrolet couldn’t replicate.

      1. Their engines had a stronger and broader torque curve than the Chevrolet engines – especially on the low end where it really matters. The reason was a combination of its deck height & rod length-to-stroke ratio, the head designs that emphasized low-end torque over high end horsepower and the exhaustive camshaft research (pun intended). Chevy couldn’t duplicate it with their small or big blocks.

      2. The other edge that Pontiac had over Chevrolet was a pulse on the performance youth market. Chevy didn’t have that swagger that Pontiac had. The Chevelle SS was a great car, but didn’t carry the same weight or rebellious attitude that the GTO Judge did. Pontiac was able to sell a young man’s car to young and old alike.

      In today’s world, The engine edge is long gone. This loss of autonomy was the single most damaging event for Pontiac. Pontiac could no longer exist without being dependant on another GM line – namely Chevrolet due to it becoming the corporate engine. Most Pontiacs since were a Chevrolet with an arrowhead. They may have had a different style, but the sustance underneath was shared with the other car lines. That’s why Pontiac failed. They couldn’t bring anymore ‘excitement’ in performance than Chevrolet could have. If anything, Pontiac held Chevrolet back for years by corporate decisions to decontent or detune Chevy products. Doing that made GM’s bread and butter brand less desirable and competitive in the market.

      Also, gas prices, the lack of disposable income in younger demographics, changes in social values and youth culture have all shifted away from the winning formula that Pontiac had. They lost the pulse on what younger people want. At this point in time, Chevrolet is just as capable at reaching youth as Pontiac was. There is no longer something that Pontiac can do that Chevrolet cannot. I have high hopes for Chevy’s passion group.

      Regarding the sales attrition from Pontiac: Even though there are people like Moanalua who refuse to buy GM without a Pontiac nameplate, there are many more who are now willing to consider a newer better Chevrolet over a foreign make since it doesn’t have to ride below Pontiac’s content level or pricing constraints. Removing this sibling rivalry is a win for GM overall.

    • #39449
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Brian_E: If you want to be a shill for GM, that’s your business. I’M not loyal to GM; I’m loyal to PONTIAC. As far as I’M concerned (and many other Pontiac loyalists like me), the MARKET DEMAND for Pontiac is clearly still there, almost exactly three years after the brand’s murder. I don’t subscribe to what you seem to be implying: That a revived Pontiac would be absolutely unviable. If GM were to revive Pontiac, they would surely be wise enough to make changes to the brand that would be necessary to to make the brand viable. And even IF we ASSUME that Pontiac absolutely “cannot” return (and I don’t see why that would be an irrefutable fact), then I will shift my allegiance (and business) to a non-GM brand. It’s just as simple as that. Now, last I checked, the “yes” votes FOR Pontiac’s revival were outpacing the “no” votes, two-to-one, on that poll thread. What do you have to say to THAT?

    • #39450
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @ Moanalau

      First off. Name calling is a sign of a losing argument. I am not a ‘shill’ for GM. I’m not attacking you, so don’t attack me. I have friends and family who are current and former employees of GM. My support for GM is also support for my friends and family. I also believe GM has the best products on the market.

      Second. You didn’t refute or address anything in my previous two comments or provide anything to further the discussion. The only point you tried to make was that Pontiac could still be viable. You didn’t go into ANY detail about HOW it could be viable. You are the one who is an Economics major, as you said so yourself. Still, in 26 pages you haven’t provided a single economically viable solution for a financially solvent GM with Pontiac. Saying it’s better for GM to decide that is not an answer. If you have any profitable ideas, let’s hear them.

      Third. You have not tried in good faith to see both sides of the issue. Throughout many of my previous comments, I have shared my sorrow at the loss of Pontiac. It should be clear that I am sad there are no more new Pontiacs. I have also gone to great lengths to explain the reasoning, history, and support for GM’s decision. I have even gone to considerable length to see your view and provide you with possible avenues to advance your cause of ressurrecting Pontiac. (Pages 7 through 13) You either didn’t comment on them or otherwise disregarded them as actions you were unwilling to do. Instead you repeat the same tired arguments that suggest an unwillingness to be objective or to even consider any viewpoint that differs from your own.

      Fourth. The poll indicates that twice as many people want Pontiac back as those who do NOT want it back. These results are consistent with an either/or poll. You’re either for Pontiac or against. No mention is made or choice is given to those who would pick the third option of “Don’t Care”. 250 people is hardly a majority of the site traffic for GMAuthority.

      I have tried earnestly to be respectful of your position, and to explain the facts and circumstances as I see them. At least I have seriously considered your claims. None of your comments lately give me any reason to believe you would show me the same consideration and respect. If you’re going to resort to namecalling and refuse to acknowledge any merit to any opposing viewpoint, then our conversation is over.

    • #39451
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      @Brian_E wow, those are some great points. @Moanalua’s “economic sanctions” argument doesn’t hold because plenty of others have already imposed those same sanctions on Pontiac before its demise, by not buying Pontiac that is. And many more will give Chevy their business thanks to the fact that they’re making best in class vehicles, therefore imposing economic sanctions on other brands; but something tells me that plenty more people will buy a modern day Chevy than the “few” that have tried will be lost by dropping Pontiac. In effect, a net gain in sales and product quality/content.

      But what I’ve quickly learned is that one can’t bring valid points when speaking to Pontiac loyalists… Since they’ll either be ignored or, worse, others will state that it’s their “opinion” and that it doesn’t matter.

      I’ve never owned a Pontiac, but I’m loving my 2010 Camaro SS. There’s nothing that Chevy can’t do that Pontiac could.

      PS: the poll and its results aren’t really statistically sound, due to various reasons too lengthy for this topic. But even if the poll was set up correctly, then it wouldn’t mean much without a true representative sample… All we have now is the high possibility that more Pontiac crazies have voted than those who simply don’t care about the brand and its resurrection.

    • #39452
      Moanalua
      Participant

      t@Brian_E: Please, let’s not have tissue-paper feelings here. “Shill” isn’t THAT bad a term. Meanwhile, I respect that you have friends/family working for GM. This is certainly nothing personal against them, either. And, I’m willing for our conversation to continue, if YOU are also so inclined.

      I don’t work for GM, so I’m not really in a position to offer a specific plan, strategy, or program to GM for reviving Pontiac. My Economics background doesn’t change that. Economics isn’t geared only to the auto industry. Other people/organizations have offered proposals to GM. As I have stated before, I’d be happy with ANY of those proposals, should GM adopt one and revive Pontiac. I.e., IF GM believes it feasible to revive Pontiac, I wouldn’t demand details. If GM DOESN’T revive Pontiac, I take my business to a non-GM automaker. I’m simply playing my role as an “economic actor.” There really isn’t anything unusual here. Again, roughly 45% of Pontiac’s former customers have ALREADY taken that step.


      @wbodyfan
      : Has it ever occurred to you that for many Pontiac loyalists, Chevy will NEVER suffice? Also, I never suggested that my economic sanctions alone would change the world or cause GM to heel. It’s possible that GM WON’T revive Pontiac. I’m not necessarily here to change YOUR opinions or anyone else’s. I’m simply doing my part to defend Pontiac and push for the brand’s return. That hardly qualifies as “crazy.”

    • #39453
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @Moanalua No worries. I wasn’t offended as I was more surprised that you had even went down that path. You’ve carried yourself pretty well on this thread, so that tactic was unexpected from you. I’ve seen how quickly discussions can unravel when insults get volleyed back and forth. I was only trying to nip it in the bud. No harm done.
      …and continue… 😉

      Asking for Pontiac back, but leaving the specifics up to GM will not get you anywhere. If you are going to demand the return or else, then the onus is on YOU to offer a suggested path forward. You have not offered suggestions, only pointed to Pontiac’s absence as intolerable. The Occupy Wallstreet had the same issue. They were disorganized with no vision. The only thing they could unite on was the wage disparity, but they offered no solutions, so no solutions were offered from Wall Street.

    • #39454
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Brian_E: As a consumer (and here’s my Econ background coming into play again), I’n not OBLIGATED to suggest any path or plan to GM. As I mentioned much earlier on this thread, I think it would be somewhat preposterous for me to suggest a plan to GM. I’m not IN GM, so I’m not privy to GM’s cost structure, or any other factors germane to GM that would influence WHAT a revived Pontiac would look like, or what reviving the brand would involve. To me, that’s GM’s business. Further, since it doesn’t matter to me HOW Pontiac returns, even MORE so: Why should I dictate? By the way, as a liberal, I supported the Occupy Wall Street movement. Yes, that movement didn’t have a central, organized vision, but there’s no law that said it HAD to. The movement STILL made a point, and the movement spread to many major American cities outside of the state of New York. Again, as a consumer I’m not OBLIGATED to offer a “solution” to GM, and besides: Who am I to offer a solution? I’m willing to leave solutions to GM. What I’m saying to GM is: “As a consumer, all I care is that you revive Pontiac. I’m not about to dictate HOW you should do it. That’s entirely up to you. Revive the brand, and if you have to change it from the way it was before, by all means do so. I trust your judgment and automotive expertise.”

    • #39455
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      ** Give me a successful example where a qualifying amount of people demanded a product without ANY specifics and then received something they were all (or mostly) satisfied with.

      That seems like what you’re asking for, so I’m really curious to hear such an example for the first time.

      GM has no incentive to act on your demands as you’ve stated them so far. I’m not asking for detailed specifics, but you need to provide GM with some minimum guidance.

      ** A start would be to answer these two questions.
      1. What can Pontiac do that none of GM’s current brands can?
      2. What is the estimated size of this market that is exclusive to Pontiac?

      In all the comments on this thread, no one has answered these basic questions or provided any hard numbers. Actually, I’m the only one who even took a stab at it in a comment you didn’t respond to (page 10). All I’m asking you to do is to quantify the demand and tell GM what those exclusive Pontiac buyers will want. GM is not the consumer – they are the supplier. When GM told the public what their buyers wanted, THAT is what made them non-competitive. That is what you’re asking GM to do again by refusing to list any demands but one. It is NOT GM’s business to tell you what you want.

      If you truly want GM to act, then you need to put forth some effort to communicate your desires to them. All you’ve done so far is shout, “I want a Pontiac name and Arrowhead on a GM car!” If GM took Chevrolet’s right off the end of the production line and covered the names and bowties with Pontiac equivalents using double sided adhesive, that would satisfy you according to your comments. Even doing that is more effort on GM’s part than what you’re doing. You say that you’re fighting for Pontiac. You’re not fighting for Pontiac – you’re just shouting. Fighting requires training, a bit of sacrifice, and especially knowing you’re opponent. You haven’t shown where you’ve done any of that. All you’re doing is cheer leading for a non-existent a team. Hell, even cheerleaders give direction and lead by example.

      You are the customer. You ARE obligated to tell GM what you want.
      You would be foolish to expect GM to give just any old car to the public as a Pontiac.
      Here are some examples of where they failed to understand what the customer wanted in a Pontiac.
      Grand Ville
      1980’s Lemans
      Aztek
      Transport
      2004 GTO (Single exhaust and no hood scoops on a GTO? That was just stupid!)
      G3

      Those are just Pontiac failures. Given that precedent, why would GM be willing to foray back into the Pontiac wilderness without a compass? You’re not fulfilling your role as a consumer to communicate clearly what you want. (For the record, I also supported the Occupy movement (i.e. I donated). I agreed with their desire to raise awareness of the wage disparity, but I am also extremely disappointed that they didn’t work toward a solution to that problem.) All that you’re doing here amounts to shouting. But each day that goes by where GM doesn’t announce a new Pontiac is a shout right back – and they don’t even have to lift a finger to do so. Your “economic sanctions” are meaningless without any conditions (that’s plural – you’ve only listed a single vague demand.) or effort on your part.

    • #39464
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      I believe what I believe – by observation – not analysis – as “figures may not lie” but “liars can sure figure”. Just look at any annual corporate report – the day before they go belly up – you’d think they were golden.

      And I believe unless GM brings back Pontiac – as a separate and distinct brand – featuring performance, reliability and eco-sense – they may just fade into oblivion.

      The American buyer – is looking for a quality car – that can compete with the BMW 328i and all the other Acura, Audi, Nissan and the like clones – and Pontiac can be that brand.

      Not Chevy – Chevy will never out live it’s “blue-collar” image.

      Likewise Buick – just go out on the road and observe the age of the typical Buick driver – it’s never going to shake that “old fogy” image.

      Cadillac is competing against Mercedes – that’s it.

      GM – start thinking in a forward direction – sharpen your resolve – go with the Arrow-Head – it’s your best hope !

    • #39465
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @gcmeninsr Whoa, hold on a second.

      Chevy is a mainstream brand. The one that brings home the bread and the butter, as does Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, Hyundai, Kia, Subaru, VW (mostly), etc. Call it blue collar, call it whatever, but it’s the vehicle most people buy. Today, these are good all-around performers in pretty much any category. And there’s nothing “Blue collar” about a $40,000 Silverado, $50,000 Camaro, or a $60,000 Corvette.

      Now, about Cadillac: they’re actually NOT competing with Mercedes. Cadillac’s main competitor is BMW. That’s the performance luxury space, where performance and luxury are the two main objectives of the brand and its vehicles — in that particular order of priority. I would put Audi and Infiniti in that space as well, but that’s a topic for another thread.

      For some reason, you mentioned Nissan in the same sentence as Acura, Audi, and BMW… Nissan is a mainstream brand. A Chevy competitor. And Chevy outsells Nissan every month… and has for ever (literally).

      Now, let’s take a look at Acura. This is a brand that needs no competition, because even it doesn’t know what it is or where it’s going. It’s a rebadged Honda from crying out loud… and isn’t even a global brand. Case in point: the Acura TSX is sold as the Honda Accord in Europe and in the JDM. The same goes for the rest of the Acura line. But that doesn’t really matter as much as this:

      Acura is consistently outsold (by thousands of units) by “real” luxury brands like BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus… even Audi (as of late). To make matters worse, since Acura isn’t a real luxury brand (from a price and status perspective), it makes less profit per unit. So why would a business need to compete with a brand that’s not only less profitable, but also doesn’t sell in large enough numbers?

      When it comes to Buick, the brand has seen its average buyer age drop by 5 years over the last 2 years (give or take). There’s no reason this trend will not continue.

      No sane customer will ever even think of Pontiac when shopping for a fine luxury automobile — like a BMW, Audi, Infiniti, or even Acura… heck, if Chevy is “blue collar”, Pontiac is even “bluer”.

      Seems like GM’s “forward thinking” is just fine…

    • #39474
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @gcmeninsr: GREAT post. Thank you for insisting that Pontiac return.


      @Brian_E
      : What puts you in the position to presume to tell consumers (specifically, Pontiac loyalists) what their “obligations” are? Let me repeat: Pontiac loyalists have NO obligation to do ANYTHING you mentioned. It’s certain that GM ALREADY knows that a very large number of consumers want Pontiac back. Therefore, that “communication” has already been “put forth.” I’m not particular as to HOW Pontiac should return, so I have no reason to communicate any further with GM. GM ALREADY knows what I want it to know: “Revive the brand, and revive it in any fashion that you want.” By the way, what gives you the impression that I’m “shouting” in my posts? I’m speaking normally.

      Also: If GM took Chevys off the production line and CHANGED THE GRILLES AND TAIL LIGHTS, and applied Pontiac nameplates and arrowheads throughout (but NOT with “double-sided adhesive”), YES: That WOULD satisfy me. That shows how easy I am to please.

      You said, It is NOT GM’s business to tell me what I want. Yet you make it YOUR business to tell me what my “obligations” as a consumer are. Isn’t THAT ironic. Give me a break. I think it’s time for YOU to start taking your OWN advice. Speak for YOURSELF. Don’t presume to tell other consumers what their “obligations” are.


      @alex
      : Chevy was ALWAYS the most “blue collar” brand in GM’s hierarchy. There’s no way that Pontiac was more blue-collar than Chevy. And speaking only for myself (though many other Pontiac loyalists may agree), GM’s thinking will never be “just fine” until it revives Pontiac.

    • #39475
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @ Moanalua

      And there you have it. You’re decision to reply to my comments by sidestepping my questions only proves my point. When pressed, you’re not willing to DO anything to get Pontiac back. For someone so passionate about Pontiac, you’re very non committal about actions. With just a little effort on your own, you could buy a pre-owned Chevrolet (avoiding giving any money to GM) and then apply the Pontiac elements yourself – or pay to have it done. It’s not that hard to do that, not that expensive, and a hell of a lot easier than convincing GM to do it for you. But no, you still want GM to do it for you – without ANY effort on your part. You haven’t done anything on your own to give GM an incentive. That is what I honestly find frustrating in our conversation, your talk without action. I have put forth a fair amount of effort into helping you – even though I feel a Pontiac as a rebadged Chevy is a total disgrace to the Pontiac heritage. I’ve offered guidance on a couple different ways to approach GM to revive the brand. You’ve either ignored them, or said that its not your job.

      I’m not the one telling you what your obligations are. I’m just the messenger. I’m simply informing you that certain steps need to be taken to get GM to act. That’s just the facts of the situation that I’m trying to help you see. There’s nothing ironic about it. I’m trying to help you here, and you keep ignoring my advice. Maybe you didn’t ask for my advice, but I was trying to give some food for thought and maybe something that can assist you.
      I don’t know about you, but in my job history, when I’ve presented project proposals, I must have an absolute minimum of three things: What is the end result, what is the benefit and what is the investment. In order to get my projects approved, I have to be able to describe those three things. I can’t say to management “You tell me.” If YOU want GM to act, then YOU must present some positive incentive. Even Chris Price at Bringbackpontiac tried to create a business case. It’s a poor one that completely conflicts with GM’s current path for Chevrolet, but its still a business case. In many of my previous comments to you, I’ve proposed questions to help you build a more convincing message. You’ve chosen to disregard my offers. If you’re going to sit there and not do anything, then don’t expect GM to do anything – especially if you are already through communicating to them.

      Bottom line: You’re the one that wants Pontiac back so bad, yet you won’t even answer two simple questions to get the ball rolling.
      If you’re not going to put forth any effort to get Pontiac back, then I sincerely apologize to you for wasting our time. Good luck.

    • #39476
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      As far as the shouting part, here are your words from elsewhere in this forum:

      _____
      Let’s not forget that when GM murdered Pontiac, it was outselling Buick TWO-TO-ONE!

      I’m suggesting that not only CAN it return; it SHOULD and MUST return!

      Quite frankly, I’m sure that it would be financially viable. GM, PLEASE GIVE IT A SHOT!

      RALLY ‘ROUND PONTIAC! There’s strength in numbers, and we HAVE the numbers. We’re all current or potential GM customers. As such, let’s demand that GM bring Pontiac back!

      Let “PONTIAC WILL BE BACK!” be our battle cry. This is a call to arms, to all Pontiac loyalists out there: We need to convince GM to bring the brand back! Make your voices heard!

      Let’s assume that GM brings the brand back, but not with its great former musclecar/performance vehicles. I INSIST: Better THAT than DEAD.

      By the way, thank-you for joining the chorus of folks calling for Pontiac’s return!

      The fight to bring Pontiac back MUST continue, if not on this thread and/or message-board, then on others.

      Now BRING PONTIAC BACK.
      _____

      Sure seems like your shouting with the exclamation points and capital words….

    • #39477
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      I’ve talked to BMW owners – my son in law is one – he was ready to buy a G8 over that BMW until Pontiac’s murder was announced. He never considered a cadillac because of the image – too ritzy – nor a chevy – not ritzy enough – nor a buick – too stodgy. But he was about to sign for a G8. Here’s a typical review:

      Overall, the Pontiac G8 GT is one of the best sports sedans on the market for the price. No other American sedan offers the same experience at this price point. A similarly priced Infiniti G35 might offer a comparable level of refinement, but it’s quite a bit smaller and has 60 less horsepower. With a base price of just under $30,000 – our tester stickered for $31,245 and came with every option except a power sunroof – the G8 is unbeatable for a sedan of this size.

      My neighborhood cocktail group likewise won’t even consider GM for the heretofore “image” reasons of the brands remaining. Pontiac alone – as discussed above – offers that hope.

      I observe – and notwithstanding their three year production absence – they’re (Pontiacs) all over the place. GM is losing sales big time – I’m convinced of it.

    • #39480
      Brian_E
      Participant

      And GM was selling them at a loss due to the sales incentives that they needed to offer. Reviews on that great car aside – they weren’t selling and they weren’t profitable for GM. Your conversation with your son-in-law reflects the old GM. The post bankruptcy GM is working to change those images – successfully. Just look around and try to be more observant.

    • #39481
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @gcmeninsr:

      The difference in demands between your son-in-law and your “neighbourhood cocktail group” are NOT particularly captivating, or motivating arguments for the return of Pontiac.

      They are anecdotes, and are as worthless here as they are in a law court.

    • #39482
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @gcmeninsr The G8 is/was a great car, but it’s no BMW. Your son in law represents a very small sample that wouldn’t even put a dent in BMW sales. We’re talking about a luxury brand, a luxury experience, premium interior materials and warranty, built-in maintenance, state-of-the art technology and fuel economy, and a superior dealership experience. The G8 had none of those.

      Saying that Pontiac is a BMW competitor is like saying that the Camaro will sell en masse to buyers of the Jaguar XK.

      In regards to GM losing sales… Keep in mind that more than half of the cars you see on the road were purchased second hand, and that Chevy has recorded impressive YOY sales gains over the last 2 years.

    • #39485
      chevtothemax
      Participant

      i think this post has gotten outa hand im out

    • #39487
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Brian_E: The first thing that stuck-out in my mind is how ridiculous it was of you to fish-up the the times I’ve used caps and exclamation points in my posts. Quite frankly, I think that it was very childish of you to do that. Isn’t it elementary internet knowledge that you’re not “shouting” unless you use ONLY caps, ALL the time, and nothing but, in a post? You’re not “shouting” unless each and every word is in caps. My use of caps and exclamation points are for EMPHASIS.

      Also, I repeat: As a consumer, I have ABSOLUTELY NO obligation to do anything BUT tell GM that I want Pontiac back. That’s it. And dozens–if not hundreds–of Pontiac loyalists have ALREADY done that.

      I do NOT think that a rebadged Pontiac is a “disgrace” to the Pontiac heritage. I’m trying to hold-back here and not question your intelligence, but: Where do you get off, thinking that if I purchased a Chevy and applied Pontiac insignia, that that’s a Pontiac? HELLO! That’s BOGUS! It wouldn’t officially be a Pontiac! It wouldn’t be a Pontiac AT ALL!

      You’re STILL presuming to tell me what my “obligations” as a consumer are. If I may be so blunt, you have NO BUSINESS doing that. GM already knows what I want. I have ABSOLUTELY NO OBLIGATION to take ANY additional action as a consumer. Actually, my taking the time to post on this thread is ALREADY an “additional action.”

      Finally, if you call your posts “help,” I HARDLY see them as such. Thanks, but NO thanks, for such “help.”


      @chevtothemax
      : I don’t blame you. This is the kind of stuff I’ve been dealing with since I joined the thread ever so long ago. The only reason I remain on the thread and put up, is my allegiance to Pontiac. I want to defend the brand, and continue pushing for its return.


      @gcmeninsr
      : Thank you AGAIN for standing in the breach for Pontiac.

    • #39488
      DigitalSaturns
      Participant

      chevtothemax 1:09PM Permalink
      “i think this post has gotten outa hand im out”

      I agree, it got ridiculously redundant on page one

    • #39489
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Guys, it feels that we’re going around in circles here. Everything that’s been said has been said more than once and now it’s getting to a point of silly semantics and repetition. I’m tempted to close this bad boy down and call it a good thread…

    • #39490
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: If you DO do that, may I ask that you preserve the posts, but remove the “Write Comment” function, if that’s possible. We’ve all put so much time into those posts, all these months. It would be a shame to erase them. Let posterity continue to observe and judge the arguments each of us has made.

    • #39492
      Brian_E
      Participant

      @ Moanlau,

      You’re right. It should have been obvious to me by page 13 that you had no interest in any of my considerate attempts to give you an avenue for acheiving your desires.
      I left it alone for a bit, but somehow this moth was drawn back to the flame.
      You want GM back, but don’t want to do anything about it. Fair enough.

      I’m sorry you’re not interested in making your own Pontiac. Here’s a little bit of where I’m coming from. My father took a pontiac 400 engine and a 4L60 transmission and made his own hot rod. Built the frame, the body, exhaust, suspension – all of it. It’s a ‘rat rod’ in concept and design. He registered it as a 1929 Pontiac (even though there was nothing 1929 Pontiac about it). But it does have a Pontiac engine, a red arrowhead, and some Pontiac ‘soul’. It’s fun as hell to drive, gets a lot of looks, and is undoubtedly ‘blue-collar’.

      I have another ‘Pontiac’ concept that I hope to build in the next five years. I would like to take the front engine cradle from a W-body with the 3.8 V-6 and make a mid-engined car – ala Fiero. But I want to build the car body out of Fiberglass. I’ve sketched out the body. It will have some key Pontiac styling elements to it like a split grill, a pointed beak like the 2nd Firebirds, a subtle ‘coke body’ shape, and maybe some retro looking five spoke wheels. I also plan to use other Pontiac parts on it (Side view mirrors, taillights, shifter, and a few other mechanicals) My goal is to have a 2400lb 2 seat sports car with about 200 – 240 HP, I’m shooting for as close to 50/50 weight distribution as I can, and with the right gearing, I think I can get 35mpg.
      This will end up being my commuter car, if I find the money and time over the next few years to see it through. My father has been customizing cars for well over 30 years, and while I don’t have near the skills that he does, I’ve enjoyed helping him and learning from him during my 35 years. We’ve customized our Pontiacs to be what we want them to be. At the car shows that we attend, there are plenty of other Pontiac enthusiast, who have taken things into their own hands to make their Pontiac fit their personal tastes. Based on my worldview, it didn’t seem like a stretch to me to suggest that you make your own. I didn’t intend it disrespectfully.
      But I guess there are those that want to accomplish their goals with words, and then there are those that want to see results through action.

      Best of luck to you convincing GM to give you a Pontiac again.

      (I didn’t intend to come off as childish, but maybe I did.
      *** dusts off play pants and leaves this sandbox ***)

    • #39499
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      Before the thread dies, I’d like to admit something.

      If it weren’t for factors beyond my capacity to change, I would want an LS powered ’88 GT Fiero, sans T-top.

      Personally, I hold that the Fiero was Pontiac’s last car as there was no upmarket version sold as a Buick or Olds. It looked fantastic in fastback trim, the crosslaces are one of the lightest rims GM ever offered, and it weighs nothing.

      At present, I cannot find an ’88 GT, just loads of grotty 2M4’s. I’m not in any position to re-engineer the rear subframe, or even fund a crate LS of any flavour. I have no great amount of leisure time or money to set up a shop to work on any car, and perhaps most disapointingly, my genetics have dictated that I am too tall to fit comfortably within and drive a Fiero.

      So in an effort to address my faint and fleeting addiction to the Fiero, I’ve amassed an archive of Fiero imagery and video, as many detailed technical photos as I can find, and have made attempts to hit ebay for orginal shop manuals.

      To me, there was something quirky and unique about the car, despite the build quality. It was left field at the time, but it wasn’t left field and alien. Left field in a good way.

    • #39500
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Brian_E: Again, as a consumer, I believe that the fact that hundreds–if not thousands–of Pontiac loyalists have made it clear to GM that they want Pontiac back, is all the action that I deem necessary. I’m the customer. GM knows what I want. It’s now up to GM to act. If it doesn’t, then I defect to a non-GM automaker. I don’t see why that’s so difficult for you to comprehend. I don’t intend to take any additional action.

      I’ve been thinking back to your earlier posts, and if I’m not mistaken, I think I once posted that I don’t mind having conversation with you because you carry yourself decorously in your posts. I regret that that decorum seems to have diminished. In particular, it’s rather indecorous of you to imply that I’m a man of words rather than deeds. My words ARE my deeds. Your last post was something of an improvement, but then you made that snide comment near the end.

      I’m a musclecar guy, but I never built-up my cars. I ran them stock. I did find your father’s project cars interesting. I hope that your project car will be successful, too.


      @Grawdaddy
      : I’m glad you like the Fiero. Some people chided it because of the engine-fire problem some of the early models had, but my understanding is that Pontiac fixed that problem. Therefore, the later models shouldn’t be a problem. The ’88 was the last year, right? I hope you find one eventually. I’m OK with the Fiero myself. I’ve never owned one, but I’m OK with the Fiero. I like all Pontiacs. I guess that’s how it is when one is a Pontiac loyalist.

    • #39680
      JustinF
      Participant

      I know this discussion is long, and I’m just bumping it…

      Pontiac was a good brand to me. I love the brands that have the advertising strategy of laughing at econocars and reminding people of the fun of driving. Dodge, Mazda, and the late Pontiac all did that.

      Pontiac was profitable. I don’t see why it was killed. Hummer, Saturn, Saab, Opel, and Vauxhall are NOT profitable. That is why they were killed. Pontiac, however, did make a profit. It doesn’t matter how much profit, a profit is a profit, any businessman knows that. I would choose each of the existing GM brands over Pontiac, but why not keep Pontiac?

      The Buick-Pontiac-GMC alliance worked well. Having them act as a 1-in-3 brand slotted between Chevrolet and Cadillac was a great idea because each brand focused on something unique to the other two: Comfort-Luxury-Capability respectively. Now that Pontiac is gone, Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealers are missing out on performance, which Buick cannot replace.

      It’s been said before on this thread, but Pontiac was not treated right. It was just rebadged cars. They also sold cars out of their league, like the Aztek and Montana. If I were to fix Pontiac, I would have a compact Lancer Evolution fighter, a performance Malibu and Impala (but not rebadges, cars with more aggressive looks and better engines), of course the G8 to compete with the Charger, a Camaro (Firebird), a Corvette, the Solstice, and a compact crossover or two.

    • #39686
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @JustinF

      “If I were to fix Pontiac,”

      Oh boy, here we go again.

      Before we start, please don’t pick the “performance route” as it is unsellable nowadays. Pontiac was only profitable with volume cars that weren’t performance-centric and lost money when it tried to do the whole “we build excitement” nonsense business plan that last worked in the 1960’s.

      Pontiac was profitable selling garden variety G5’s. G6’s, G3’s, Torrent’s, and Montana’s. Those cars, despite who they were attached to a grossly outdated brand strategy, were the real pulse at Pontiac becasue they were the ones that brought money in.

      Money losing cars like the Solstice, G8, and all cars in GXP trim hardly brought back a dime to GM because they cost too much to engineer and returned too little. They were simply showroom pieces that roped in people to gawk at a Solstice coupe GXP, only to go away with a brouchure for a mid-level G5 sedan.

      So lets pick apart your business plan. It better have a componet that allows for volume sales and acutally brings money in.

      “I would have a compact Lancer Evolution fighter,”

      Strike 1 – Mitsu sells far more Lancers than Evo’s. That very fact is what keeps the Evo going, not demand. It doesn’t work the other way around and never will; not for Pontiac, not for Mitsubishi, not even for Kia.

      “a performance Malibu”

      Strike 2 – Pontiac had the G6 GXP. Guess what it relied on just to even exist in the first place? The G6. Guess what happened when the G6 couldn’t sell in large enough numbers? The G6 GXP goes stangnent and nobody would want it.

      “and Impala (but not rebadges),”

      Strike 3 – Same deal with as above, but with the Grand Prix GXP.

      Also, rebadges are a fact of life in the auto industry and will never go away. In fact, rebadging isn’t even practiced anymore, rather sharing a platform.

      But for Pontiac, they had so little money coming in, there was no way in hell they could have their own platform without “rebadging” an existing GM car. The W-body itself was ancient, and GM is not stupid enough to spend billions and billions of dollars on a single use platform for a under-performing brand to sell a performance version of a car in a segment that is dying.

      “cars with more aggressive looks and better engines)”

      Strike 4 – Aggressive doesn’t sell. Historically, cars that are consevatively styled move off the lot. Pontiac had the Aztek and it was ridiculed. Pontiac had Millenium yellow offered, but only 5 people ever ordered it on the G3’s they bought new.

      Also, the same thing about billions and billions for a new platform can be reduced to millions and millions for different engines. Not ‘better engines’, Pontiac is only worth what GM has available.

      “of course the G8 to compete with the Charger”

      Strike 5 – The G8 was the large segment car for Pontiac. Having it along with the aforementioned “performance Impala” would be a needless overlap and a waste of engineering resources.

      “a Camaro (Firebird),”

      Strike 6 – Again, a segment too small to chase after considering GM already has enough money tied up in the Camaro just to make a version for Pontiac.

      Also, if GM did make the Firebird, you can bet your shoes that it would have to share the Zeta platform the Camaro has. No question.

      “a Corvette,”

      Strike 7 – Aww hell no! GM tried that stunt with the Cadillac XLR, so how could even think to convince people to buy a gussied up Corvette again?

      “the Solstice,”

      Strike 8 – The segment is dead and even Lutz admitted the Kappa platform was a money losing venture.

      “and a compact crossover or two.”

      AND FINALLY HE GETS IT! A volume car that would sell and be the sole breadwinner for the whole Pontiac brand!

      So here’s the real question for your Pontiac business plan: Where’s your volume selling compact, subcompact, and mid-size cars? Why is there more emphasis on tired and predictable sportscars and not things like a Camry fighter, a Civic fighter, or an Accent fighter?

      You may think the Camry, Civic, and Accent aren’t important as the Charger, Camaro, or Evo you’ve mentioned, but I can tell you which group of 3 always brings home the money and which group of 3 sell to just a fraction.

      If you can tell the difference, you’ll know why Pontiac isn’t here anymore.

    • #39688
      RjION
      Participant

      LA FIN THE END

    • #39689
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: I’m glad that you would like to have an ’88 Fiero. Yes, we see why Pontiac was discontinued. Nonetheless, many folks on this thread, including its originator (PontiacRulz), would like to see ideas as to how Pontiac could be revived, not reasons for its demise. Those reasons for Pontiac’s demise are water under the bridge. A revived Pontiac doesn’t have to make the same mistakes that were made in the past. GM can reconfigure a revived Pontiac in any way that it wants, that might make the brand viable.


      @RjION
      : Umm, that doesn’t tell us anything we don’t already know. While it’s impossible for dead PEOPLE to return to life, at least it’s POSSIBLE for dead CAR BRANDS to be revived.

    • #39691
      chevtothemax
      Participant

      is it just me or has this become the department of redundancy department

    • #39693
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @chevtothemax: There will continue to be “redundance” as long as Pontiac loyalists want their brand back. As a Pontiac loyalist myself, I hope that that will be a long time. If it weren’t for the determination of Pontiac loyalists, this thread would have died a long time ago. In fact, the thread wouldn’t have even existed. This thread was STARTED by a Pontiac loyalist.

    • #39698
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      It’s not all redundant !!

      Be Bold GM – divide into two companies – Chevy, Chevy Truck & Cadillac – Pontiac, Buick & GMC !!

      Shake it up or wither !

      What’s redundant ?? Nissan, Subaru, Kia, Hyundai, Volvo, Audi,

      So GM – truly reinvent yourself and make the imports redundant !!

    • #39699
      JustinF
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy why does Pontiac need high volume sales? This is not Chevrolet or Toyota, it’s Pontiac. It doesn’t need to sell high volume, especially because there would be more like 7> models, not 16 like a full line, most models would be on existing platforms, and marketing and dealerships would be joint with Buick and Pontiac. Compare its sales to Buick and GMC, not Chevrolet.

      I guess not all cars have to be HIGH performance, but they need to be tuned up.

      The nature of Pontiac wasn’t holding GM down, GM executed it wrong, and got too lazy to handle reviving it at a bankrupcy state. When they get the government off their backs and are the top-dog car company again, there will be plenty of room for Pontiac.

    • #39701
      2014impalarox
      Participant

      Or resurrecting the aztek!

    • #39709
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @JustinF

      “why does Pontiac need high volume sales?”

      For profitability because Pontiac can’t exist any other way. That profitability made things like G8 and Solstice possible;

      The G8 GXP’s collective development cost couldn’t be recouped from all the G8 GXP’s they sold. It had to be recouped from the sales of thousand of G3’s, Montana SV6’s, G5’s, and Torrents; cars themselves that had R&D costs to recoup.

      If Pontiac sold just G8’s and Solstii, it wouldn’t be profitable because the demand for sports cars are always less than that of garden varrierty cars. Thus, the ROI would be far too slow, the annual balance sheet would turn red, and GM would have to dump more money into the pit to sell cars that the overwelming marjority of the public didn’t want in the first place. GM choose to seal off the pit and never look back.

      It has nothing to do with “GM’s mismanagement of Pontiac”. The demand for “sporty cars” simply died, and what remained of Pontiac’s range was merely overlapping with what Chevy sold.

    • #39715
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: I sense that you and I have reached a level of peace and goodwill, so I’m saying this in a friendly way: I don’t see how you can say, “the demand for ‘sporty cars’ simply died.” I would assume that demand for sporty cars is very much alive and well. Look at all the sporty models being offered and sold by various brands today, both domestic and foreign.

    • #40231
      Dinkus_McG
      Participant

      Pontiac needs to comeback. The only reason they kept Buick is because they sell in China as a rebadge anything else beside US Made. In the USA Pontiac sold more cars than Buick by a long shot. If not, go and drive, you will see more Pontiac than Buick and even less the newer models.

    • #40249
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Dinkus_McG

      It wasn’t how many units Pontiac had over Buick in the US. It was the transaction price, in which Buick often beat Pontiac.

      Of course you’ll see more Pontiac’s than Buick’s. Pontiac’s sold cheap transportation; lots of G3, SV6’s and G5’s that appeal to the working class.

      Buick is positioned in such a way that’s the MSRP of its products are much higher and thus appeal to a smaller, more well funded demographic.

    • #40324
      ScottieDogFLA
      Participant

      While it is true that Pontiac’s unique cars were few towards the end (GTO, G8, Solstice), and that it’s other models were badge-engineered Chevrolets, the G6 sold in really huge numbers during it’s existence- and remember, it included a coupe and convertible model as well. What has not been discussed is the fact that Pontiac’s greatest enemy was within the GM hierarchy itself; that is, Chevrolet’s dealers. Just as they were jealous of Saturn putting out small cars (well documented), they couldn’t bear to have Pontiac steer any more customers away from Chevy models. And the argument that “a Firebird customer will just as easily buy a Camaro” was something GM bean counters believed.
      The reality, however, is that Pontiac did, in fact have many loyal customers; most of whom it has been learned have “jumped ship”.

    • #40327
      RjION
      Participant

      The lions share of Saturn and Pontiac buyers have jumped shiped. That does not mean Saturn or Pontiac will return.

    • #40383
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @ScottieDogFLA: Thank you for your comment. Let’s not be discouraged by naysayers who pour cold water on our desire to see Pontiac return. It’s a fact that Pontiac has a large fanbase spread throughout the US and Canada. I wish to implore each Pontiac loyalist to keep the faith, and continue pushing for Pontiac’s return. I’d like to see us collectively send a strong, unmistakable message to GM: Revive Pontiac, or you can kiss our business goodbye. PERMANENTLY. If GM insists on keeping Pontiac dead, we Pontiac loyalists can insist on depriving GM of our business. Let’s exercise our privileges as consumers; let’s “vote with our dollars.”

    • #40384
      RjION
      Participant

      It’s time you go looking for another brand to attach yourself to …. Pontiac is not coming back.

    • #40390
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION:

      1. Pontiac is not coming back only if GM says it isn’t, not any of us.
      2. IF Pontiac is not coming back, the brand I attach myself to will NOT be a GM brand.

    • #40416
      HummerSaturnPontiac
      Participant

      Once Obama gets out of the picture and the government is out of GM for good, Pontiac has a good chance of returning, I thinks they should start out with basically the same lineup, maybe some redesigning and some a few new models that they discontinued in the past, but make them better with the option of all trims, and they should definitely start advertising more! Here’s what I think trims/engines/models should be and look like. . .

      Trims-

      SE- 3.6L VVT V6
      GT2- 3.8L V6
      SLE- 3.9L Supercharged V6
      GTP- 4.0L or 4.2L V8
      SSEI- 4.6L V8
      GXP- 4.8L, 5.3L, 5.6L, or 6.3L options

      Models-

      Grand Am- Compact Sedan
      Grand Prix- Mid-Size Sedan
      Bonneville- Full-Size Sedan
      GTO- Sports Coupe
      Trans Am- American Muscle Coupe
      G5- 3dr or 5dr Hatchback
      G6- Family Size Sedan
      G8- Family (full size) Sport Sedan
      Vibe- Wagon/Crossover
      Torrent- Sport SUV
      Aztek- Family SUV (3 row)

    • #40419
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @HummerSaturnPontiac: That’s a GREAT post. Some people seem to think that Pontiac was shut down because it was a tainted or inferior brand. Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the ravages of the Great Recession that brought it down. I’d like to think that if it WEREN’T for the Great Recession, Pontiac might still be around today.

      Yes, Obama and the Feds need to get lost, but not only them; AKERSON has to go. He’s GM’s CEO, and he’s against Pontiac returning. It doesn’t appear that he intends to change his mind.

    • #40422
      HummerSaturnPontiac
      Participant

      Why didn’t GM just sell Pontiac in the first place? They could have sold it to that Jim Waldron guy at the dealer!

    • #40427
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @HummerSaturnPontiac

      You have all these trims levels with powertrains, but no bread and butter 4-pot engines? No sub-compacts?

      And the redundancy! You have the Grand Prix and the G6 in the same segment; as well as the G8 and Bonneville, and the GTO and Trans AM, and the G5 and Vibe.

      You were all over the place when you made this up. I fear you were just picking up old Pontiac names on the fly and just throwing them together in a hypothetical re-launch, and not thinking about the segments first and then suitable cars/powertrains.

      Please try again.

      Here’s a template that works for the industry as nearly every other automaker has a product available in each segment. Sports cars aren’t included as they aren’t sold by the size, but by the HP.

      1 – City
      2 – Sub-compact
      3 – Compact
      4 – Mid-size
      5 – Large
      6 – Full-size.

      90%+ of all car buyers can be slotted into the above segments, with an overwelming majority clustered around the low-end of the scale (1-3).

    • #40499
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @HummerSaturnPontiac: I relate totally to your desire to have seen Pontiac survive. However, I would prefer that Pontiac return as a GM brand. Pontiac has GM’s DNA; it’s part of Pontiac’s history and personality. Pontiac wouldn’t be Pontiac if it were revived by a non-GM automaker.

    • #40500
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: I think you’ve made a convincing assessment. I’d love to see a revived Pontiac feature a model in all six segments.

    • #40604
      rwbernie
      Participant

      they should have just kept the G8 and firebird and got rid of everything else

    • #40605
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @rwbernie

      Those cars are unprofitable as they cost too much to engineer and don’t sell in large enough numbers.

      Could have sworn that was said enough times.

    • #40646
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: The G8, unfortunately, didn’t sell in large numbers. But I’m not happy about the Firebird not selling in “large-enough” numbers. I prefer to think that that was GM’s fault. If I recall correctly, in 1978 Pontiac sold over 117,000 Firebirds. At what point did production fall to the point that it wasn’t “large-enough,” and why? I could swear that that QUESTION hasn’t been ASKED enough times.

    • #40649
      Vic1212
      Participant

      this forum is going insane

    • #40652
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Vic1212: Let me suggest WHY. First, look at the title of this thread. It’s, “Who thinks it’s time to start talking about Pontiac again?” The thread was created AFTER Pontiac was murdered, and IMPLIES that this thread is for folks who think it IS INDEED time. (Why would a naysayer create such a thread, since Pontiac had already been murdered?) Further, the thread was created by PontiacRulz, who is an ardent proponent of Pontiac returning. Therefore, the “insanity” arose because there are naysayers who got/continue to get on this thread, and attempted/continue to attempt to attack the movement to revive Pontiac. We Pontiac loyalists are ALREADY angry and upset about the brand having been murdered.

    • #40654
      Vic1212
      Participant

      Well I do own a Pontiac as of right now and I do think they should be back one day but the thing is if they do come back, first who are they going to go against? Second would it distract other models from Buick, Chevrolet’s sales because many will be the same car with different badges.

    • #40657
      wbodyfan
      Participant

      Vic why are you even bringing up Buick in this conversation? If Pontiac were to ever be reintroduced, it would have to be as a performance-focused brand that Buick IS NOT. So bringing up Buick is irrelevant.

      Even then, it is not coming back. Just like the W body that I love so much is not coming back after the current 9th gen Impala is discontinued. Some just need to get over it.

    • #40664
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Vic1212: I own a Pontiac right now, also. But as a Pontiac loyalist, I don’t CARE about Buick OR Chevy. I’m a PONTIAC loyalist. I want the brand back, period.


      @wbodyfan
      : I like your idea of Pontiac returning as a performance-focused brand. However, I think we should leave to God such claims as, “it is not coming back.” And as a Pontiac loyalist, I have NO intention of “just getting over” the brand’s murder, nor do I believe I “need” to.

    • #40665
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      Yeah, because a bronze age desert god was responsible for discontinuing Pontiac and not an annual sales chart.

      Perhaps putting your hands together and talking to your celing will convice the bronze age desert god to retroactively change the sales statistics from 2 years ago to make Pontiac have a business case in a world were consumers care less and less about affordable performance cars.

      You know, not that the price of gas has driven away such performance consumers over the last few years.

    • #40666
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: What I meant was that when it comes to reviving a car brand–in fact, when it comes to MANY things–one can “never say never,” as they say. My point wasn’t that a “bronze age desert god”–or even the Christian God–murdered Pontiac. My point was that it would appear to be a little too presumptuous for ANYONE on this thread to say Pontiac “is not coming back.”

      No, “putting my hands together and talking to my ceiling” will not “convince the bronze age desert god” to revive Pontiac. I DO think it’s ridiculous of you to say, “consumers care less and less about AFFORDABLE performance cars” (emphasis mine). You’d be surprised by how many people are doing well financially, especially because the Great Recession ENDED over three years ago. The economy may not yet have recovered completely, but it’s much better than it was in ’09. I dare say there will ALWAYS be a market for performance cars, ESPECIALLY, AFFORDABLE performance cars.

      The same can be said regarding the price of gas. Not everyone is hurting; people are still buying gas, and not only for economy cars. Finally, the domestic automakers have been recovering faster than most of the rest of the economy.

      The sales charts of domestic automakers are, on the whole, looking better than much of the rest of the economy is. And if you’re referring to Pontiac’s sales charts, I’m assuming that EVERY brand’s charts were looking bad at that time. We were in the MIDST of the Great Recession. Mercury died-off just about a year after Pontiac.

    • #40668
      RjION
      Participant

      Pontiacs not coming back …. if I’m wrong everyone can rub my nose in it.

    • #40671
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: I admire your confidence, I suppose, but I don’t necessarily APPRECIATE it, for whatever that’s worth.

      To all: In an earlier post, I had mistakenly understated Firebird sales for ’78. In that post, I said over 117,000. Actually, it was over 187,000(!). For whatever that’s worth. I just figured that I should correct my error.

    • #40677
      RjION
      Participant

      Moanalua I don’t necessarily APPRECIATE that Saturn and Pontiac are gone what ever thats worth.

    • #40684
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: I appreciate THAT. You’ve been on this thread for quite some time, and I had gotten the impression from your posts that you DON’T WANT Pontiac back.

    • #40689
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      I hope all Pontiac enthusiasts will remember BO’s role in Pontiac’s demise in November.

    • #40690
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      The Government should minimize meddling in business – turn ownership back to the shareholders – let wages benefits meet the Honda, Nissan, Toyota standards – stop selling cars below cost.

    • #40691
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @gcmeninsr who is selling cars below cost?

      As for “the government meddling in business”… That doesn’t take place:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/04/no-the-government-does-not-call-the-shots-at-gm-de-fud/

    • #40692
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @gcmeninsr: I’m kind of conflicted about Obama. If he were a Pontiac loyalist, he probably would have seen to it that his automotive task force ensure that Pontiac survived. On the other hand, he DID save GM, which makes it at least POSSIBLE for Pontiac to return.

    • #40723
      59StarChief
      Participant

      I got my driver’s license way back in 1975 driving my mother’s midnight blue ’65 Pontiac Catalina Ventura coupe. I loved that car… and I’ve had 5 Pontiac’s in the past 37 years. I was very angry that GM kept GMC trucks ( nothing but a re-badged Chevy truck) and dumped Pontiac. GM got this way after decades of neglect to their car lines and dismantling the old Alfred Sloan model. When they started making all their brands look alike and kept ignoring the Japanese cars… well… they became the victim of resting on their laurels. I have no inclination on buying a new GM product. If they can bring back Pontiac and make it more than just a re-badged Chevy… then bully for them. But until I see a prototype at a car show… or a car magazine…. I’ll be whistling thru the graveyard of other dead marques.

    • #40730
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @59StarChief: Hang in there. MY first car was a turquois ’66 Pontiac Le Mans coupe! Just a year newer than the Pontiac you got your license in. I’ve had 9 Pontiacs in the past 35 years! Pretty close to your history there, too. And I, too, was totally ticked when GM murdered Pontiac. However, I felt that Buick should have been dumped rather than GMC, because GMC outsold Pontiac fair and square. On the other hand, Pontiac WHIPPED Buick TWO-TO-ONE! But please, KEEP THE FAITH that Pontiac might return! And I, TOO, will NOT purchase a new GM vehicle if Pontiac ISN’T revived.

    • #40731
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @59StarChief “and dismantling the old Alfred Sloan model.”

      You can’t be serious! You’re digging back nearly 100 years for a reason to have kept Pontiac with the tired and profoundly outdated Sloan Ladder?!

      The socio-economics and socico-political dynamics of the last 100 years have changed dramatically. The Sloan Ladder precludes that EVERYONE is going to be a millionare by the time they are 50, or even become a millionare at all at any age. Having GM stick to an inflexable system for the vacious sake of “tradition” would have killed GM sooner; Pontiac should have gone years sooner.

      What’s more, the Sloan Ladder becomes more and more unworkable with changing consumer tastes and external market conditions. Nowadays, big barge cars aren’t fashionable; something that may have been different in the 1950’s when the Sloan Ladder may have had a use.

      Today, no luxury automaker wants to be like Lincoln. They want to pursue the ever-changing consumer tastes, not be like Lincoln and announce “THIS TOWN CAR IS THE DEFINITION OF LUXURY”. Reason being is because automakers don’t set the standard of luxury, consumers do; and they brands that best reflect those impressions of luxury in the consumer’s eye wins.

      Something you don’t have to worry about in 1912 America as nobody thought of oil as finite. The Sloan Ladder ignores external market conditions as it was never considered and this not seen as a threat. Try selling a luxury car (not an SUV) today without diesel, a small 4-pot, hybrid system, or a meager V6. None of those powertrains are considered “sporty” by “Pontiac loyalists”, and some will say that they don’t fit within the Sloan Ladder because they seem “like a step back”; that they aren’t moving in a linear “onward and upward” manner.

      Right, and luxury cars with those features can’t stay on the lot long enough.

      To hell with the Sloan Ladder.

    • #40732
      RjION
      Participant

      Moanalua October 16 Permalink


      @RjION
      : I appreciate THAT. You’ve been on this thread for quite some time, and I had gotten the impression from your posts that you DON’T WANT Pontiac back.

      I have no idea how you’ve come to any impression other than I am saying Pontiac will not return in my liftime.

    • #40733
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: Go back and read all your posts.


      @Grawdaddy
      : If I could go ahead here and jump into the conversation…

      You used quotations around the term, Pontiac loyalists, which implies that we Pontiac loyalists are not quite that. Speaking just for myself, I AM–in just about every sense I can imagine–INDEED a Pontiac loyalist. I am LOYAL to the brand, I WANT it back, and I therefore take the time to post on this thread to defend the brand AND the movement to revive it. If you read this entire thread from the very beginning, I think you can see that I’m not the only one.

      It’s not like the Sloan ladder goes back to 1912, the Titanic’s day. If I’m not mistaken, Sloan wasn’t even GM’s CEO until the 1930s. Also, the Sloan ladder was in use all the way to the late-1970s at least.

      A person need not be a millionaire to purchase a GM vehicle (not even the most expensive Cadillac).

      Yes, Lincoln is in trouble, but notice that it’s STILL around, at least for now.

      I believe I mentioned in a previous post that as a customer and Pontiac loyalist I, for one, would be willing to support any line-up of models you might deign to recommend for a revived Pontiac.

      “To hell with the Sloan ladder”: Why so vicious? That business strategy served GM well for a very long time. Of COURSE times have changed, but personally I’m not so sure that there’s NO place any longer for variations on the Sloan ladder.

      “Pontiac should have gone years sooner.” I think I speak for nearly all Pontiac loyalists when I say: Not only should Pontiac NOT have gone years sooner, it should never have gone AT ALL. Isn’t that why THIS thread is STILL going, for TEN months and 30 PAGES now?

    • #40734
      Moanalua
      Participant

      Correction: This thread has been going for JUST OVER a YEAR now. It began in October ’11.

    • #40735
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      Aww, our little love child thread is one year old!

      But seriously, a year?

    • #40737
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy: Yeah. When I was typing the earlier post yesterday, I was thinking the thread had started in December ’11, because I recalled typing some of my earliest posts just before Christmas. But when I happened to check the first page of this thread some hours later, I noticed that the first post of the thread appeared in October ’11.

    • #40739
      gcmeninsr
      Participant

      I trust Pontiac and GM fans far and wide will vote ROMNEY – RYAN on Tuesday. Get the the Government out of private business – and for once build competitive cars w/o the archaic burdens of union early retirement and full health care plans. They’re still not solvent and won’t ever be if Bronco continues to print money for his union cronies.

    • #40740
      RjION
      Participant

      Moanalua …..corn oil……I own a Poctiac, not the first one …. It’s really cute how loyal you are, but it does nothing for GM’s bottom line. Pontiac will not return in your life time whether you like it or not.

    • #40741
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      “trust Pontiac and GM fans far and wide will vote ROMNEY – RYAN on Tuesday.”

      And if nobody in the US wants an ugly theocracy, then what?

      Then your great plan to bring Pontiac back from the dead will be pushed even further backwards into obscurity. Then you’ll have 4 years to get on with your life and find something else to do; something more constructive hopefully.

      And if the US wants an ugly theocracy, then I bet there will be an excuse to make any attempt at reviving Pontiac as “Unamerican” or “Unholy”.

      Personally, no matter who wins on tuesay, NO president will give a damn about Pontiac.

    • #40743
      ScottieDogFLA
      Participant

      Pontiac is dead. Period. It can be argued of course that Buick should have been axed instead- all one needs to do is to go to any of the large Car Shows around the country; still old guys with walkers hovering around the Buick display. My theory: GM will probably ax Buick as well in a couple of years and then bring one of it’s Chinese lines to the US as “entry level”. The problem is that aside from different product managers in Chevrolet or Cadillac, there is NOBODY left at GM Management that is a car guy (engineer, for instance). It’s all bean counters and suits. They probably drive Audis to work.

    • #40745
      CraigInIndy
      Participant

      While it’s true that Pontiac still sold a few performance cars since 2000 (GTO, G8 and some G6’s) the vast majority of the Pontiacs we were selling in those final years were mildly equipped G6’s and Vibes. G5’s and G3’s were dogs in the market and hardly worthy of the Pontiac name.

      It seems to me that most of the “Bring Pontiac Back” people are wanting the Pontiac of the 60s, 70s and 80s. That company has been gone for a long time.

    • #40750
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: I appreciate that you own a Pontiac, and that it’s not your first. However, you still insist on playing God and saying dogmatically that Pontiac “won’t return, whether I like it or not.” I’m not buying it.


      @Grawdaddy
      : gcmeninsr, myself, and MANY other Pontiac loyalists believe that pushing for Pontiac’s return is VERY constructive and worthwhile. Speaking just for myself, I intend to continue pushing for Pontiac’s return.


      @ScottieDogFLA
      : Yes, Pontiac IS dead. Period. FOR NOW. And I, too, agree that Buick will be next. I had made that very same prediction, either on this thread or another. That would be poetic justice: The brand that SHOULD have been murdered (as opposed to Pontiac), ITSELF dies. However, I prefer to believe that PONTIAC MIGHT return. And if Buick DOES die, I’d like to think that that would INCREASE the chances of Pontiac returning. I think GM CAN have two mainstream brands; in fact, I think it SHOULD: Chevy and–once again–Pontiac.


      @CraigInIndy
      : While many Pontiac loyalists want Pontiac to return the way it was from the ’60s-’80s, that’s not absolutely necessary for me. I’d accept ANY kind of revived Pontiac brand that GM feels is best assured of survival. Beggars can’t be choosy; I’m in favor of letting GM decide what a revived Pontiac brand should be like.

    • #40767
      RjION
      Participant

      Your right corn oil ….. your not buying it, and you’ll never be buying it, because it’s not coming back.

    • #40769
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: Care to explain what you mean by “corn oil,” and how that’s relevant to this discussion/thread? And, you apparently misread my post. I’m not buying your claim; not, “I’m not buying a Pontiac.”

    • #40775
      RjION
      Participant

      Corn Oil ………… my new kickname for you. I didn’t miss read anything. You don’t get what I said ….. thats ok. I didn’t really expect you to get it.

    • #40779
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: And may I ask why THAT nickname? And, if you go back to my earlier post, you will see that you clearly misread it. It’s, I’m not buying your argument that Pontiac won’t return. THAT’S what I’m not buying.

    • #40791
      RjION
      Participant

      Help him Jesus …………. or he’ll never get it.

    • #40792
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: Interesting that you would invoke Jesus, seeing that you enjoy playing God, dogmatically saying, “Pontiac WON’T return.”

    • #40814
      RjION
      Participant

      Thats cute cornoil. come back and tell me all about it when you buy your new Pontiac. Till then I stick to …. Pontiac will not return in your lifetime….if ever.

    • #40815
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: Quite frankly, an apropos nickname for YOU (that would be similar to the one you gave me) would be “snake oil.” But I’ll refrain from the childish practice of using silly nicknames.

    • #40816
      RjION
      Participant

      Ok mazola

    • #40817
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      Enough with the stupid names.

    • #40818
      RjION
      Participant

      Grawdaddy ….. how many names have you called me? Troll, Bill Neuhauser? Not to mention you came up with me claiming to be an engineer.

      Like I said
      Grawdaddy: your imagining things again. Never said anything about being an engineer.
      Alex can look up my IP as to calm your paranoia that I have TWO ACCOUNTS….thats scary. Check under your bed, check your pants cause your full of it.

      November 20, 2012 at 4:45 pm
      Reply

      Grawdaddy
      July 26, 2012 at 7:08 pm
      Reply

      He’s claimed to be an engineer.

      Or he, at the very least, a troll who’s posted with 2 different accounts and signed with the same name (‘Bill Neuhauser’ when he posted as “RjION

    • #40819
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: All Grawdaddy said was, “Enough with the stupid names.” Don’t you think that’s pretty good advice? We’re all adults here, right?

    • #40820
      RjION
      Participant

      Your an adult…………would have guessed you were 13 by all the cute thoughts you have on Pontiac’s return.

    • #40821
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: Better “cute thoughts” than “cute” nicknames. So you’re suggesting that only adolescents think Pontiac might return? Judging by all the comments you have made on this page–to both Grawdaddy and I–I would say that you are having a meltdown.

    • #40822
      RjION
      Participant

      The problem is …. the drugs your taking.

    • #40823
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      I’m glad he remembered me enough to copy and paste my posts.

      Not so glad that he missed the post that had him use the name “Bill Neuhauser”. This one by the way:
      http://gmauthority.com/forum/discussion/comment/1817#Comment_1817

      I’m not calling you any more names than those that you’ve given yourself. It’s in the post you’ve made: “Bill Neuhauser P.E.”, Bill Neuhauser the Professional Engineer.

      I don’t care if you are Bill Neuhauser, if you are an engineer, or if you are neither of these things. I don’t want you telling me I said you were “Bill Neuhauser P.E” when you were the one to type it out first.

      I also really don’t care if you have to use two GMA accounts. It doesn’t help the world in any long-term manner, and it doesn’t add to this discussion about Pontiac.

      But please, continue with the names. Show us all the names you know.

    • #40824
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: No, the problem is…your talking about folks you don’t even know. I’ve been drug-free all my life. Perhaps your comment is a case of projection on your part?

      Also, it looks like Grawdaddy blew your cover. Shame on you.

    • #40833
      RjION
      Participant

      Grawdaddy: Have Alex look up the IP’s and let you know if we are one in the same. If not watch out for the boogieman in your closet.

      This entire thread is pointless. Pontiac is not coming back evan if you ask Santa.

    • #40835
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: If “this entire thread is pointless,” why are you on it? Furthermore, we Pontiac loyalists aren’t asking Santa; we’re asking GM.

    • #40839
      RjION
      Participant

      I come back cause it’s just so cute. You can ask your mom, your dad, your uncle. You can ask Obama, you can ask congress, along with Santa and you’ll get no Pontiac from them. So ask GM all you want, they’ll not do it for you either.

    • #40841
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: You and I KNOW that my mom, my dad, my uncle, Obama, Congress, and Santa CAN’T revive Pontiac. GM CAN. THAT’S the difference.

    • #40858
      RjION
      Participant

      mazola: When I’m wrong about Pontiac not coming back…come talk to me.
      rawdaddy: When Alex looks up the IP and confirms I’m not your boogieman..be man enough to admit it, till then your just smoke coming from the Pontiac frying pan.

    • #40859
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @RjION

      You’re still going on about IP addresses when I’ve said 9 days ago “I don’t care”.

      Stop pretending you have a edge, reread the post I made last week, stop putting words in other people’s mouths, and stay on topic.

    • #40860
      RjION
      Participant

      On topic………….RIP Pontiac

    • #40861
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION:

      In response to your comment to me, I’ll stand it on its head: When I’M wrong about Pontiac COMING back…come talk to ME. The logical inference there is that you would never talk to me again, because you’ll probably never KNOW that Pontiac ISN’T coming back. You say you know, but that’s virtually impossible because GM ALWAYS COULD revive Pontiac. That’s been the underlying problem with your position since you’ve been on this thread. As long as GM owns the rights to Pontiac, GM COULD revive the brand. Finally, while your comment to Grawdaddy (“RIP Pontiac”) is somewhat “on-topic,” it doesn’t really say much. Sure, “RIP Pontiac” WHILE THE BRAND IS DEAD. I maintain there’s a chance it might RETURN. Unlike dead PEOPLE, dead CAR BRANDS CAN return, especially a car brand as popular and with as large a following as Pontiac. Look at all the websites/threads you get when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”.


      @Grawdaddy
      : It seems that RjION often PRETENDS to have an edge, but most often he doesn’t. For example, he keeps pretending that Pontiac won’t return, when even GM’s CEO can’t really say it won’t. It’s been rumored that Akerson said Pontiac won’t return, but if he’s replaced, then who knows? What if GM’s NEXT CEO considers it? Therefore, if even GM’s CEO can’t say that Pontiac absolutely won’t ever return, certainly neither can RjION say it.

    • #40862
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua Was Akerson “rumored” to have said that Pontiac won’t return? When? Where? To who? I mean it’s conjecture upon conjecture… it doesn’t help this discussion as we can’t rely on it whatsoever. But that’s really not what I wanted to chime in for.

      It seems you’re placing way too much emphasis on a single person (Akerson) as the ultimate decision maker for the brand. As is the case in most companies where the people running it didn’t found it (and therefore don’t have a thorough conviction on how it should exist), most “modern” execs will simply make decisions based on hard numbers, market studies, and various other analyses. So it’s not that Akerson may or may not “want” for Pontiac to return; rather, it all comes down to market research data that’s compiled and deciphered by a multitude of people. After the research and analysis phase, the findings are presented to the executives, who discuss the matter further.

      Here’s the crucial part: no CEO (or any other exec) will want to put his ass on the line and make a risky decision. And if there ever was one, Pontiac is the definition of risky in automotive environment. Simply put, there’s no major upside in sticking one’s nose out to revive the brand; but the possibility of a downsize is huge.

    • #40863
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: As I mentioned to you on another thread, it was a rumor. That’s why I can’t substantiate it. But just as I can’t prove it, by default YOU can’t DISPROVE it either, unless YOU can find hard evidence.

      I think that in some ways you’ve touched upon the crux of the problem when you talk about “hard numbers, market studies, and various other analyses.” UNTIL SOMEONE COMES UP WITH “HARD NUMBERS, MARKET STUDIES, and VARIOUS OTHER ANALYSES” that show Pontiac ISN’T viable, no one can SAY that Pontiac won’t return. The brand has a large following.

      We Pontiac loyalists are saying that we want the brand back, that it’s worth reviving, and that it has a large following. Don’t forget that WE, TOO, are car-buying customers. We WANT GM’s CEO to revive the brand. If he DOESN’T, well, I’ll be purchasing a new vehicle from some OTHER automaker. That’s the long and short of it. And I’m VERY sure I won’t be the ONLY former Pontiac (and GM) customer to do so, nor will I be the LAST. How’s THAT for “hard” market reality?

    • #40864
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Moanalua why does one need to disprove something of which there is no evidence? There literally is no evidence of Akerson, or anyone at the current GM, saying anything regarding Pontiac, positive, negative, or otherwise. I find it ludicrous that one needs to “disprove” something that doesn’t exist in the first place.

      The fact that Pontiac is not around means that it isn’t viable. I hope you understand that it wasn’t discontinued due to some deep-rooted hatred… instead, it was dropped because it didn’t make business sense to keep it, large following or not.

      As for your example of a hard market reality… reality is reality. If you’re going to purchase a non-GM vehicle, that’s your prerogative. GM’s is to build the world’s best vehicles at a profit. So you may not be able to resist the “switch” for long, especially when the next-gen Chevys are unleashed.

    • #40876
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @alex: You’re begging the question. As I had told you before, I’ve read SEVERAL claims that Akerson said Pontiac won’t return on his watch. I’ve ALSO read that as a result, Pontiac loyalists have called for his removal. Now, have YOU any evidence that Akerson DIDN’T take the aforementioned position? How do YOU know he never took that position? There’s nothing “ludicrous” about it at all; it’s a pretty serious charge. Also, why would Pontiac loyalists make that up? What would they gain from it? If you can PROVE that Akerson DIDN’T assume such a position regarding Pontiac, I’d be happy to see the proof. Since the charge HAS been made, you can now no more assume that he DIDN’T take that position, than I can that he DID. The charge HAS been MADE; if you dispute it, provide evidence that it’s false. Personally, I have nothing against Akerson. In fact, I hope the charge ISN’T true.

      I think it’s ridiculous to say that a brand that was #3 at GM, was possibly the most popular American brand in Canada, and has such a large following, “isn’t viable.” For God’s sake, why do you think there are so many Pontiac websites and threads? Google “Bring Back Pontiac”. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the Great Recession had something to do with Pontiac’s murder? And, the last sentence of your second paragraph is something of a contradiction in terms. If a car brand has a large following, it probably SHOULDN’T be dropped, except for extenuating circumstances. The extenuating circumstance was the Great Recession, which ENDED THREE YEARS AGO. At present, the only reason I can see that GM might not consider reviving Pontiac right-away is that GM is having problems in Europe. Once THAT clears-up, GM ought to take advantage of Pontiac’s large following in the US and Canada, and revive Pontiac. I think it would also be a tremendous PR coup.

      I never suggested that GM had a “deep-rooted hatred” for Pontiac. Why would it? Why would an automaker have a deep-rooted hatred for one of its own brands? That was never an issue.

      Finally, don’t you worry that I might “not be able to resist the ‘switch’ for long” to Chevy or any other GM brand. Unless GM revives Pontiac, hell will freeze-over before I purchase a new GM vehicle, “world’s best” or not. For decades, I’d been loyally purchasing only Pontiacs because I like the brand, and its products have served me well. Then GM kicks the brand into the gutter. I’ll be darned if GM is going to smell any of MY business (again, unless Pontiac is revived).

    • #40898
      RjION
      Participant

      This thread reminds me of Abbot and Costello’s who’s on first.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M&feature=player_embedded

    • #40901
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @RjION

      I’ve always had Gallagher vibes from this thread.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPrYulad8W4

    • #40915
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I have not gone through all the thread here as much of this is the same as I have seen other places. There is a lot of emotion here and while that is great it does not pay the bills. It is much like better with you heart and not your head.

      Pontiacs death was not a short term affair as it was the work of many years and in the end the fact GM has too many models for the market share they control. Like a house hold budget in tough times you have to cut back.

      The two final nails were the fact that one Buick was making tons of money in China when Pontiac was sold only in North America.

      The second nail is the fact Pontiac was the so called performance division and only really had two real performance cars one of which we will see coming back soon as higher level Chevy performance car. The Solstice was a car I loved but it’s sales were not going to save Pontiac.

      One only has to learn the real history of the Fiero to see how and where GM and Pontiac were not on one page and GM just mis managed them for years. Pontiac was reduced to a fancy Chevy and really offered nothing more or different than could be offered in a Chevy if the need should arise.

      Sad as I see it Pontiac is gone and there really is little to no need for it in the near future. GM has it’s plate full right no just getting Chevy, Buick and Cadillas to where they need to be. They still have billions of dollars needed to make these division what they need to be.

      I am as Pontiac as can be as I am still an owner and have been a Pontiac guy since they brought me home from the Hospital in a 60 Ventura. My heart says bring em back but my brain knows that this is the real world and buisness is buisness and it is just not in the cards as things stand today.

      Till GM has things like a Malibu that outsells a Camry and Accord, till Cadillac outselling a BMW and Benz at a profit and GM has a market share that is nearer to 40% vs 20% Pontiac will just not appear.

      The truth is the odds are better Opel may join Pontiac vs Pontiac coming back.

      I know you can never say never but as time goes on the possibility decreases more and more. Just look at Olds and how few people today know or care about the brand and all the great cars they had. Even some of their national events are not drawing people and cars like they used too.

      I don’t mean to be harsh here but just realistic.

      Even at the largest Pontiac show in the world at Norwalk Ohio few people shed a tear as many there feel as if Pontiac has not really been around for a good while. Some even stopped the clock at 1979.

      The only hope we had was Bob Lutz and he was 10 years too late.

    • #40916
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @HHRSS:

      What you are forgetting is that for car buyers, purchasing a new car is often just as much a matter of where your heart leads you, as it is a matter of where your head does. It’s precisely because purchasing a new car is often your second biggest purchase (in terms of dollars) next to purchasing a home, you KNOW you have to really WANT the particular vehicle you’re purchasing. I.e., this is not something as mundane as purchasing, say, a new washing machine. Obviously, GM as a business does have to heed the “bean counters.” Trouble is, CUSTOMERS simply aren’t concerned about GM’s point of view. When YOU are the customer, you want a certain kind of vehicle, and any excuses that a particular automaker may have as to why it can’t sell you that vehicle, simply doesn’t cut it. I think I speak for many–if not most–Pontiac loyalists when I say, I WANT PONTIAC BACK. If GM will NOT revive Pontiac, I will purchase a new vehicle from some OTHER automaker.

      Pontiac had been GM’s performance division since 1964, when Pontiac introduced the first musclecar, the GTO. Just a year later, Chevy introduced its answer to the GTO: The Chevelle SS. The Chevelle SS may have also been around in ’64, but it could be ordered with a six-banger(!), if I’m not mistaken. It didn’t become a true musclecar until ’65. You seem to suggest that unless each and every Pontiac model is a performance car, Chevy alone can suffice. That isn’t true. For some forty years, Pontiac offered all KINDS of vehicles, and for that reason it was #3(!)–behind only Ford and Chevy–throughout much of the mid- to late-’60s, and through the late ’80s and early ’90s as well. In fact, when Pontiac was murdered, it was #3 at GM, outselling #5 Buick two-to-one.

      You dismissively describe Pontiac in its later years as nothing but a “fancy Chevy”, yet wasn’t that what Pontiac always had been, since the mid-’60s? That didn’t make Pontiac any less relevant to its many followers here and in Canada, nor did it prevent Pontiac from being #3 NATIONWIDE, not just at GM.

      Now, you claim that there is “little to no need” for Pontiac. Unfortunately, that’s not how we Pontiac loyalists see it. And, as Pontiac loyalists, we DON’T CARE about whether Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac are where they need to be; we’re PONTIAC loyalists.

      I appreciate that you are “as Pontiac as can be”; however, I would imagine that a person who is “as Pontiac as can be” would INSIST that Pontiac return. I find the murder and continued absence of Pontiac INTOLERABLE. I will NOT accept excuses as to why the brand “can’t” be revived; I’m sorry. And if we’re going to talk “harsh business realities,” the harsh business reality is that unless GM revives Pontiac, GM will never smell my business again, I’m sorry.

      I understand that you’re not trying to be harsh, but realistic. You use Olds as an example. Consider that Pontiac has a much larger following than Olds does. Also, Pontiac lasted some five years longer than Olds. There must have been a reason for all that, and I think the reason is that Pontiac would simply be a better candidate for being revived than would Olds. Pontiac would be more viable, would have a better chance of success. When you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, you can see what I’m talking about. A VERY LARGE NUMBER of folks want Pontiac back. This is all about consumer demand, market demand. It’s praiseworthy and somewhat unusual that an American brand commands that kind of large and loyal following; I say GM can’t afford NOT to heed it. GM HAS to revive Pontiac and bring this large number of Pontiac loyalists back into the fold. Retaining customers is extremely important to an automaker. Every percentage point of customer retention is equal to 25,000 customers, or about $700 million in revenue.

      I would insist that GM MUST revive Pontiac.

    • #40922
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      You can google “Bring Back Pontiac” and get 1.7 million hits

      You can also google “Bring Back Saab” and get 59 million.

      If just on the google hits alone, for every 1 “Bring Back Pontiac” fan, there are 34 “Bring Back Saab” fans.

      If you insist that GM should listen to the consumers, then the consumers have spoken.

      Granted, GM divested itself of Saab ages ago, but there is a larger and more active base of “Saab loyalists” then those self-described “Pontiac loyalists”.

      I also don’t feel your case for Pontiac is well supported by sales figures from 20 to 30 years ago. Sales from that long ago tell nothing of sales in 2013; nevermind the shifting consumer base.

    • #40923
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy:

      1. This is a PONTIAC site, not a SAAB site. Frankly, I don’t care how many hits SAAB gets.
      2. SAAB wasn’t a traditional American GM brand, whereas Pontiac was; SAAB was originally Swedish. Also, GM had an interest in SAAB for a very short period of time, whereas Pontiac had been solidly a part of GM for many decades. When you mention SAAB, I would venture that very few people think of GM. When you mention Pontiac, the link to GM is clear.
      3. SAAB will re-appear as an electric-vehicle brand in March ’14. Pontiac has not yet been of assured of returning. Therefore, SAAB loyalists aren’t in quite the predicament that Pontiac loyalists are. So, why have SAAB loyalists spoken? At least their brand IS returning in some form. Pontiac loyalists would like to be told the same about THEIR brand.
      4. So there are more SAAB loyalists than there are Pontiac loyalists; I really don’t care. I don’t concern myself with SAAB at all. Not only that; GM doesn’t own the rights to SAAB anymore. GM DOES still own the rights to Pontiac. Therefore, your mention of SAAB is actually irrelevant to a GM website, and to this thread in particular. This thread is about getting GM to revive a brand; there is absolutely nothing that GM can do about SAAB now, even if it wanted to. You would have made more sense mentioning Olds.
      5. You’ve defeated your own argument when you said Pontiac’s figures of 20 to 30 years ago tell nothing of sales that might occur next year. That argument cuts both ways. If Pontiac were still around, its sales might have been higher next year than YOU seem to suggest. Shifting comsumer base? That occurs all the time. Who knows how it will shift next year? If you intended by your post to throw cold water on the movement to revive Pontiac, I’m afraid you’ve failed, and quite miserably, too.

    • #40924
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      This will be fun.

      “This is a PONTIAC site, not a SAAB site.”

      No, this isn’t even a ‘Pontiac site”, as I’m sure a quick glance at the URL will tell you otherwise.

      “SAAB wasn’t a traditional American GM brand”

      So what is a ‘traditional American GM brand’ anyway? Was Pontiac anything you’d call ‘traditional’ like that in the last 30 years? Heck, wasn’t Pontiac just the afterthough tacked onto the more traditional Oakland brand if you’re going to be pedantic.

      As I’ve said time and time again on GMA, ‘tradition’ means anything you’ve done more than once…such as a bowel movement or talking smack in online gaming.

      Futhermore, so what if Pontiac was American and Saab was Swedish. You’re not trying to be xenophobic by suggesting that because Saab was Swedish that it was worth less to GM than Pontiac was, are you?

      “So there are more SAAB loyalists than there are Pontiac loyalists; I really don’t care.”

      Numbers are scary, especally when they aren’t in your favour.

      “Therefore, your mention of SAAB is actually irrelevant to a GM website, and to this thread in particular.”

      Incorrect. It doesn’t matter if Saab is no longer tied to GM via intellectual property. The HISTORICAL fact that GM once owned Saab is more than enough reason to include it in this discussion, and even this website.

      Also, you Moanalua, cannot ever dictate what car brands are mentioned in this thread or even this entire site; it is not a decision you are in authority to make, ever.

      I won’t let your announce that “Saab cannot be mentioned in this thread because I say so”; the very fact that history of GM and Saab crossed paths at one point can never be erased from history or this thread no matter how hard you try or wish it to be otherwise.

      “you said Pontiac’s figures of 20 to 30 years ago tell nothing of sales that might occur next year. That argument cuts both ways. If Pontiac were still around, its sales might have been higher next year than YOU seem to suggest.”

      And that’s the real problem with this thread; standing by sales stats of 30 years ago when the gas was cheap….versus the G3, G5, and SV6’s sitting on a used lot because they were what Pontiac sold more of.

      The G8 and Solstice might have made sense 30 years ago, but as consumer demands changed and the price of gas climbed, where was Pontiac to go? What was it to do? What was it going to become of the brand that Chevrolet wasn’t already doing? Why would GM waste the money making “Two Chevrolets”?

      The only way GM could have kept Pontiac around after the 80’s was to make them a Chevrolet clone. The message should have been clear when the Trans Sport first rolled out.

      But hey, at least GM followed consumer demand with the Trans Sport. The last thing Pontiac needed then was a V8 powered full size coupe….something some people call a “traditional American car” and what other people nowadays call “unsellable”.

      “Shifting comsumer base? That occurs all the time. Who knows how it will shift next year?”

      Likely futher away from some would call the ideal traditional Pontiac. I mean nobody thinks fuel efficient subcompact and city cars when you mention Pontiac; probably for the better anyway as Pontiac loyalist would bemoan a reborn Sonic-based G3 because it doesn’t have RWD and 300hp.

      Finally, if all my arguments don’t move you, may I remind you that a summary of all you’ve typed for the last year was “GM better do what I say and uphold tradition or I’ll hold my breath”.

      Heck, we can do this again for another year. We’ll see what becomes of Saab and Pontiac and any other brands that can’t hack it. I’m not worried as I feel GM made the best decision in both cases and that everything is right in the universe.

      The same universe you live in too, by the way.

    • #40925
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy:

      1. I should have said this is a Pontiac THREAD, not a Pontiac SITE. And what have you to say to THAT?
      2. It was moronic of you to suggest that SAAB was somehow as “traditional” a brand as Pontiac. If either brand was an “afterthought” as far as GM was concerned, it would be SAAB. HOW LONG was SAAB associated with GM? HOW LONG was PONTIAC associated with GM? Get real. Was Pontiac EVER a foreign brand?
      3. It was a real stretch on your part to attempt to link traditional GM brands with such things as bowel movements and smack-talking. You do seem to do a lot of the latter, and as for the former, well…
      4. It was also a stretch on your part to link my position on SAAB with xenophobia. Yes, I’m an American, and yes, I prefer American cars. That wasn’t necessarily the point. The point was that SAAB was far less identified with GM than Pontiac was. Like, perhaps that’s substantially because SAAB was a Swedish brand for SO long?
      5. If SAAB wasn’t worth less to GM than Pontiac was, why does GM still own the rights to Pontiac?
      6. I am not at all “afraid” of SAAB’s numbers; I simply don’t CARE about them.
      7. Did I ever attempt to “dictate” which car brands can be mentioned on this thread? Am I the administrator? Did I say you CAN’T mention this brand or that? Seems you’re back to your old habit of defensively jumping to unwarranted conclusions.
      8. You’ve AGAIN demonstrated faulty logic. For decades, Pontiac was known for V8 performance. And then you mention G3s, G5s, and SV6s sitting on used-car lots. Notice that all those models AREN’T V8s. What, did Pontiac DEMAND that those models be equipped with V8s? Both GM AND Pontiac were aware that gas isn’t cheap any more. So, what was your point? What were you thinking? WERE you thinking?
      9. In a very real sense, Pontiac always WAS a “second Chevy.” For decades, Pontiac hadn’t offered models that Chevy didn’t. Yet Pontiac was very competitive, and for years was #3 behind only Ford and Chevy.
      10. I personally have no problem at all with Pontiacs being Chevy “clones.” If the vehicle wears Pontiac nameplates/insignia, it’s officially a Pontiac. That’s good enough for me.
      11. As far as I’m concerned, a revived Pontiac need not be an “ideal traditional” Pontiac. A revived Pontiac brand can be whatever GM decides it should be.
      12. You’re right: ALL of your arguments don’t move me. And allow me to correct you regarding the position I had taken all year: It’s, “GM had better revive Pontiac, or I’ll take my business to another automaker.” Pontiac’s tradition was never a “requirement.”
      13. I would suggest that the only reasons Pontiac “couldn’t hack it” are that it didn’t sell vehicles outside of North America, and also, because of the Great Recession. The Great Recession ended over three years ago, and I would be glad to see a revived Pontiac selling outside of North America, and not just IN it.
      14. I think GM made a TERRIBLE decision murdering Pontiac.
      15. Finally, you and I may live in the same universe, but that’s about ALL we have in common.

    • #40926
      RjION
      Participant

      END OF STORY

    • #40928
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @RjION: It might be the “end of story” for YOU, but not for Pontiac loyalists on this thread and other threads.

    • #40929
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      “I should have said this is a Pontiac THREAD, not a Pontiac SITE. And what have you to say to THAT?”

      That I still can mention Saab in this thread and you can’t stop me; irrespective of GM’s historuical ownership of the brand.

      “It was moronic of you to suggest that SAAB was somehow as “traditional” a brand as Pontiac.”

      You’re not telling me what makes Pontiac more traditional than Saab apart from it being American. That doesn’t tell anyone anything apart from the nation of orign and says nothing of tradition.

      “HOW LONG was SAAB associated with GM? HOW LONG was PONTIAC associated with GM?”

      Too long on both counts…

      …but at least in Saab’s brief tenure their engineers opperated independantly. You do remember the 9-3 convert was done without influence from Detroit, or how the Haldex AWD system was orchestrated by Saab’s engineers. Not great, but not bad for 20 or so years of ownership.

      But in over 70 years, what can Pontiac lay claim to? If the only thing you can retort with is “Wide-trac”, then I will remind you that was a styling distiction concived by Harvey Earl and was not in the least anything to do with handling.

      Pontiac never contributed anything in 70 years; Saab had it’s own hardtop convert and it’s AWD system inside of just the last 10.

      The lenght of time is meaningless and does a diservice to your argument.

      “Was Pontiac EVER a foreign brand?”

      It was in Canada, as are every American car sold here is of a foreign brand…that includes Pontiac.

      “It was a real stretch on your part to attempt to link traditional GM brands with such things as bowel movements and smack-talking.”

      Well then what good is keeping a tradition in automotive circles if it doesn’t work after 30 years?

      When you figure that one out, you’ll understand why ALL traditions are garbage.

      “It was also a stretch on your part to link my position on SAAB with xenophobia.”

      Not really, as you’ll see.

      “Yes, I’m an American, and yes, I prefer American cars. That wasn’t necessarily the point. The point was that SAAB was far less identified with GM than Pontiac was.”

      Not on the worlds stage it wasn’t. The world knew what a Saab was. Nobody but Americans and Canadians knew what a Pontiac was.

      Thats the xenophobia. You’re suggesting that because Saab wasn’t as close to GM as Pontiac as in the US, that it was worth less on a whole on the world stage where Saab was far better recognized; it’s connection to GM less obvious.

      You gotta give that attitude up.

      Who cares if the connection to GM is evident or not. As you’ve stated before, this thread is (supposed to be) about Pontiac, nothing else.

      “If SAAB wasn’t worth less to GM than Pontiac was, why does GM still own the rights to Pontiac?”

      Merchandising! Die casts, T-shirts, key rings, and barstools – you name it, you can slap a red arrowhead on it. They make great chirsmas gifts too!

      GM did the same thing with Saab, Hummer, and Saturn, and still does so with it remaing brands. It shouldn’t be a shocker to you as to why the rights to the Pontiac name are still owned by GM, they can cash in most with merchandise.

      “Did I ever attempt to “dictate” which car brands can be mentioned on this thread?”

      With statements like this:

      “Therefore, your mention of SAAB is actually irrelevant to a GM website”

      Sounds like you saying that there would be no reason to mention Saab on GMA. You’re not to tell me it isn’t relevent when it is.

      “For decades, Pontiac was known for V8 performance.”

      Nope, just for one decade; the 60’s. There was nothing in the Malaise era. (google that phrase)

      After those years, you could get V8’s in select Pontiacs, but with the Astre, the Phoenix, the Grand Am on into the 80’s, cars like the Bonneville and Grand Prix weren’t exactly thrilling cars to drive.

      From the 90’s on is pretty much a given. The Firebird got clumsier, the GTO fisseled, and the G8 was good when it would have mattered 15 years earlier. GP GXP? forget that W-body footnote.

      If you think Pontiac was being revered by the public for it’s v8 powertrains after the 1960’s, you’re profoundly deluded.

      “And then you mention G3s, G5s, and SV6s sitting on used-car lots. Notice that all those models AREN’T V8s.”

      But they are the cars that sold the most. See? Pontiac’s best cars were the ones that people wanted and were the ones that sold. Performance didn’t matter to those people as Pontiac offered a car without a V8 that did what the consumer wanted.

      “What, did Pontiac DEMAND that those models be equipped with V8s?”

      You probably wanted it that way. I’m glad you didn’t get your way.

      “So, what was your point?”

      That for the past 30 years, NO average majority consumer walking into a Pontiac showroom cared about about Pontiac powertrains from the 1960’s.

      So where is this nonsense you’re fabricating; that ‘For decades, Pontiac was known for V8 performance” when even you admit that for decades Pontiac was offering cars without V8’s.

      “What were you thinking? WERE you thinking?”

      What are you smoking?

      “In a very real sense, Pontiac always WAS a “second Chevy.” For decades, Pontiac hadn’t offered models that Chevy didn’t.

      Huh?

      “Yet Pontiac was very competitive, and for years was #3 behind only Ford and Chevy.”

      Proof? I’d like to see what position Pontiac was in compact and mid-size sales from 1990 onward. Otherwise, I don’t belive Pontiac was anything as compeditive as you may belive it to be.

      “I personally have no problem at all with Pontiacs being Chevy “clones.” If the vehicle wears Pontiac nameplates/insignia, it’s officially a Pontiac. That’s good enough for me.”

      Thankfully, you’re one of the least demanding Pontiac loyalists.

      “As far as I’m concerned, a revived Pontiac need not be an “ideal traditional” Pontiac. A revived Pontiac brand can be whatever GM decides it should be.”

      …also one of the more sure-footed loyalists.

      “You’re right: ALL of your arguments don’t move me.”

      I don’t care what anyone says, HAN SHOT FIRST.

      “I would suggest that the only reasons Pontiac “couldn’t hack it” are that it didn’t sell vehicles outside of North America, and also, because of the Great Recession. The Great Recession ended over three years ago, and I would be glad to see a revived Pontiac selling outside of North America, and not just IN it.”

      Povided GM can shake off that image of “unreliable American cars”. Hell, GM’s trying again to get a foot in Europe and who knows how well the ride will last in China. Be prepared to wait until that affairs are sorted before anyone inside the Rencenter says anything about Pontiac.

      “15. Finally, you and I may live in the same universe, but that’s about ALL we have in common.”

      Stellar nucleosynthesis, atoms, common decent…the lists goes on.

    • #40930
      RjION
      Participant

      Piss, moan, whine, cry, sprawl out on the floor and kick your feet, and you can’t change that.

    • #40931
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy:

      1. You have again evinced a childish defensiveness by insisting that I forbade you from mentioning SAAB on this thread. Even after stating my quote again, you STILL didn’t get it. Yes, you CAN mention SAAB all you want. Bully for you.
      2. Amazingly, you put SAAB in the same group as Pontiac, Olds, Chevy, Buick, etc. Yeah, never mind that SAAB was originally a Swedish brand, and remained so for a very long time.
      3. Then you go ahead and mention the engineering leeway that SAAB enjoyed, as compared to Pontiac. Even THAT doesn’t clue you in to the fact that SAAB really shouldn’t be lumped together with Pontiac or any of the other traditional GM brands.
      4. “Nobody but Americans and Canadians knew what a Pontiac was.” That’s so stupid, I’m not sure that I should waste time mentioning it. By your thinking (or lack thereof), the Mexicans didn’t know what a Pontiac was, either, even though it was sold there.
      5. You persist in your position that SAAB was “more important” to GM than Pontiac was, even though GM hasn’t divested itself of Pontiac yet. MORE stupidity. Then you tell me that I “gotta give that attitude up” about SAAB. I can’t tell YOU not to post about SAAB, but you can tell ME which attitude to give-up.
      6. You say GM hasn’t yet sold the rights to Pontiac because GM can profit from the merchandising of Pontiac memorabilia. And why isn’t SAAB memorabilia just as valuable?
      7. You display ignorance of Pontiac engine history when you say Pontiac V8s were hot “only in the ’60s.” Funny, I could swear that there were some pretty hot, multi-carbureted V8s in late-’50s Bonnevilles. And then there were the ’71-’72 455 H.O. engines that were pretty hot for their times (the ’71, in particular, was pretty hot for a smogger). Then there was the SD-455 in the mid-’70s, which NO other American brand could touch during that era. It would be helpful to learn about the history of Pontiac V8s before you shoot-off your mouth.
      8. Pontiac had to be more sensible than to offer ONLY V8-powered vehicles; NO American brand could survive that way.
      9. Which American brand DIDN’T “fizzle” in the ’90s? Look at the top brands of the Big Three: Chevy, Ford, Dodge. I think Pontiac did pretty well, considering it wasn’t the volume brand of GM. You simply couldn’t expect Pontiac to sell as well as Chevy, just as you couldn’t expect Plymouth to sell as well as Dodge, or Mercury to sell as well as Ford. (Remember, we’re talking about the ’90s).
      10. I’m perfectly content to see a revived Pontiac sell “whatever vehicles the public wants.” I never insisted that any and all Pontiacs HAVE to be V8s forever more.
      11. I never suggested that “people walking into Pontiac showrooms during the past 30 years” cared about ’60s powertrains. I’m glad simply that they purchased Pontiacs.
      12. It is the height of stupidity to suggest that simply because Pontiac as a performance brand was known for V8 performance, implies that V8s were ALL that Pontiac sold. That was EXTREMELY stupid on your part. No one even SUGGESTED that.
      13. I don’t smoke; never have.
      14. I notice that you prefer to lay emphasis on Pontiac in the ’90s. Why arbitrarily pick THAT decade? So you can ignore Pontiac’s sales success from ’62 to ’70, and ’87 to ’90?
      15. “HAN SHOT FIRST.” Care to elaborate?
      16. The image of “unreliable American cars.” That may have been the case up to, say, the early ’90s. No longer. Ask the administrator of this site.
      17. I DO agree that Buick can’t continue to count on China to save its hide, for two reasons: 1.) The Chinese economy seems to be slowing-down, and, 2.) Buick is facing increasingly stronger competition there.
      18. Yes, GM isn’t perfectly robust yet; I think its biggest problem is in Europe, as opposed to China. But if and when those problems are sorted-out, I look for RenCen to take a look at Pontiac again.

    • #40932
      Grawdaddy
      Participant

      @Moanalua

      “Yeah, never mind that SAAB was originally a Swedish brand, and remained so for a very long time.”

      So whats your point? Why does the nation of origin matter in the first place?

      “Then you go ahead and mention the engineering leeway that SAAB enjoyed, as compared to Pontiac. Even THAT doesn’t clue you in to the fact that SAAB really shouldn’t be lumped together with Pontiac or any of the other traditional GM brands.”

      Again with the traditional nonsense.

      Do youself a favour first; tell me what a “traditional GM brand” is.

      If you’re going to say a “traditional GM brand” that has been around 50 or so years, does that mean Opel counts or should it be xenophobically excluded because it’s not American? What about Saturn? It was American, but it lasted less then a generation, and I don’t think you’ll accept that as a mark of “tradition”.

      Here’s a better, less bullshit idea. I put forth the motion that there is no such thing as a “traditional GM brand”, that is there are just “GM brands”. Nothing else. Some come, some go, some remain, some faulter.

      See how much better the world is when you remove the vaccious idea of “tradition”?

      “By your thinking (or lack thereof), the Mexicans didn’t know what a Pontiac was, either, even though it was sold there.”

      I know there is an unfair stereotype of an American knowing nothing beyond his borders, but the stereotype does remain. You’re still limiting your sight to just the US.

      So I ask you to think of how people outside of North America precive Pontiac. I can assure you it wouldn’t be favourable, and it wouldn’t be appealing if Pontiac was sold overseas.

      “You persist in your position that SAAB was “more important” to GM than Pontiac was”

      None, never had. The only slight advantage Saab had over Pontiac was the in-house engineering talents, but even I know that wouldnt’ be enough.

      I maintain that GM was wise to discontinue BOTH brands (as well as Hummer) and I feel that GM should have done so sooner, before the bankruptcy.

      “even though GM hasn’t divested itself of Pontiac yet.”

      No, GM is only wrining the last ounce of cash to be had from the name. That’s why they haven’t sold the name…but from a realistic standpoint, Pontiac is as good as gone and cashing in on it’s name doesn’t bring it back.

      It’s just like Elvis. The idiot has been dead for years, but he still rakes in millions every year in the form of merch.

      Tell me Elvis is coming back, and you’ll know why Pontiac isn’t.

      “Then you tell me that I “gotta give that attitude up” about SAAB.”

      It was about your xenophobic attitudes about looking down on the Saab brand because it was Swedish and not American.

      I don’t care where or how GM aquires or forges brands. You, on the other hand, see fit to dismiss them because they aren’t American and that they aren’t “traditional GM brands”.

      BTW, remember to define what a “traditional GM brand” is. It’ll really help your argument.

      “I can’t tell you not to post about SAAB, but you can tell me which attitude to give up.”

      I can when you’re being a dick.

      “You say GM hasn’t yet sold the rights to Pontiac because GM can profit from the merchandising of Pontiac memorabilia. And why isn’t SAAB memorabilia just as valuable?”

      Because the kind of person who would have drove a Saab would have never has a need for a Saab barstool or t-shirt. Sure GM tried, but you can’t sell blue collar merch junk to people who have the money to buy white collar cars.

      That’s why with every officially licenced Pontiac die cast you get a free tin of Skoal.

      “You display ignorance of Pontiac engine history”

      Of course I would as would millions of other consumers. Pontiac’s V8 history is boring imposible to be made interesting. It also didn’t bring people into the showroom.

      “It would be helpful to learn about the history of Pontiac V8s before you shoot-off your mouth.”

      OMG! If only the consumer of 2010 knew of Pontiac’s V8 history from 40 years ago! Why think of how many G3’s would have been sold!?!

      The point is that nobody apart from the automotive reactionaries care about Pontiac’s V8 history. It certainly doesn’t apply to anything meaningful nowadays, and probably even less so as time went on.

      “Pontiac had to be more sensible than to offer ONLY V8-powered vehicles; NO American brand could survive that way.”

      Glad you got that message.

      “Which American brand DIDN’T “fizzle” in the ’90s?”

      That fissle you heard in the 90’s was the collective disinterest of Pontiac by the buying public. The brand could have got it’s act together and been more of a Chevrolet clone, but they choose plastic ribs on the rocker panels.

      “I’m perfectly content to see a revived Pontiac sell “whatever vehicles the public wants.””

      If Pontiac were to return, you may risk being thoroughly disapointed with what might pass as a Pontiac.

      “I never suggested that “people walking into Pontiac showrooms during the past 30 years” cared about ’60s powertrains. I’m glad simply that they purchased Pontiacs.”

      You may also be disapointed to know that the vast majority of them didn’t care about Pontiac’s V8 history.

      “It is the height of stupidity to suggest that simply because Pontiac as a performance brand was known for V8 performance, implies that V8s were ALL that Pontiac sold. That was EXTREMELY stupid on your part. No one even SUGGESTED that.”

      You seem to think that Pontiac’s V8 history is important enough to bring into this thread. Why anyone would ever care about such crashing trivia is beyond me.

      Tell me, what good is knowning Pontiac’s V8 history in this day and age? What’s that going to do for the humanity at large?

      “I don’t smoke; never have.”

      Me neither.

      “I notice that you prefer to lay emphasis on Pontiac in the ’90s. Why arbitrarily pick THAT decade? So you can ignore Pontiac’s sales success from ’62 to ’70, and ’87 to ’90?”

      Because in the 90’s, Pontiac ceased to be important, or even threatening to other automakers. I see it as the juncture in time in which GM could have moved Pontiac into a better, more stable long term sales position. Yet GM thought they could brand Pontiac with the image of “sportiness” in the same way that “we build excitement” almost did for them in the 80’s.

      “”HAN SHOT FIRST.” Care to elaborate?”

      Watch SW: episode 4.

      “The image of “unreliable American cars.” That may have been the case up to, say, the early ’90s. No longer. Ask the administrator of this site.”

      Or you could ask me. I have no outstanding problems with my car.

      My concern, however, is that the image of ‘unreliable American cars’ still persists in the public mind not just in the US, but the world.

      It’s that world that needs to be convinced otherwise.

      “Yes, GM isn’t perfectly robust yet; I think its biggest problem is in Europe, as opposed to China. But if and when those problems are sorted-out, I look for RenCen to take a look at Pontiac again.”

      Even if the problems in Europe and China are sorted out, there are a host of other concerns that will demand GM’s attention. You could be waiting for a very long time before anyone even thinks of the name. The challenges the GM faces in the future may continue to outweigh any concerns for the return of Pontiac. It’s also possible that absense of Pontiac may outlive you and the brand would never return.

      Nevertheless, enough with the morbid stuff. You have homework to do. You are to define what a “traditional GM brand” is and to do so in no unambigious terms.

    • #40933
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @Grawdaddy:

      1. GM is an American company, isn’t it? That’s why I lay emphasis on GM’s traditional American brands. It has nothing whatsoever to do with “xenophobia.”
      2. I would define a “traditional GM brand” as one that BEGAN in the US. That simple. No homework required.
      3. Did Opel begin in the US? I don’t think so. Saturn did, so yes, I would consider Saturn to be a traditional GM brand. By the way, shortly after Pontiac was murdered, a post was made featuring bar graphs illustrating the sales of GM brands. The ONLY brands featured were Chevy, GMC, Pontiac, Saturn, Buick, and Cadillac. I don’t remember HUMMER being listed. Perhaps THOSE brands that were listed, should be considered traditional GM brands.
      4. HOW can you “assure” me that Pontiac was perceived “negatively” by people outside of North America? And HOW can you assure me that if Pontiac WERE sold outside of North America, people wouldn’t find it appealing?
      5. Elvis isn’t coming back because dead people CAN’T. Dead car brands CAN.
      6. I don’t “look down” upon SAAB; I simply don’t CARE about it.
      7. I’M being a dick? YOU are a dick for CALLING me one. And I invite other people on this thread to weigh-in on that one.
      8. I would imagine that Chevy is more blue-collar than Pontiac; you have your signals crossed.
      9. I have SIX “officially-licensed die-cast” Pontiac models. Not a ONE of them came with a free tin of Skoal.
      10. Not everyone was interested in Pontiac V8s, but not everyone is interested in ANY one thing. So what’s your point?
      11. If I recall correctly, you’ve criticized Pontiac on this thread for being a Chevy clone, and now you say that “if Pontiac had gotten its act together, it would have become more of a Chevy clone.” You’re making no sense at all, and you’re contradicting yourself.
      12. YOU are the one who started talking about Pontiac V8s. I’m simply about the brand returning, with V8s or not.
      13. You say it was a mistake for GM to emphasize sportiness for Pontiac; that GM “could have moved Pontiac into a more better, more stable long term sales position.” And how, pray tell, should GM have done THAT?
      14. I have an ’84 Pontiac, and all it needs right now is a new carburetor. Not bad for a 28-yr-old car (and that’s the original carb that it has right now). Otherwise, it’s quite reliable.
      15. I didn’t say that Pontiac will return tomorrow. But however long it takes, I plan to keep pushing for it.

    • #40934
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Fact is we hits do not equal sales.

      As it is now GM still has too many models and are still working to get just three divisions in line. It takes time and a lot of money to fix what they have now. We are looking at 10 years to get GM from Chapter 11 to where they need to be if all goes as planned.

      Adding Pontiac back to the mix while a emotional idea is not a good buisness move.

      GM is already rolling Holden into a Chevy division and the greatest difference will be a lion head in place of the Bow Tie and the wheel on the right.

      Opel right now is up in the air and with Chevy already making inroads to Europe it is not impossible to see Opel go away if the money loss is not stemmed and agreement made with the German Unions.

      First thing we all need to do is step back and see what GM has ready for Buick as none of their present cars are new clean sheet of paper cars yet. All activity has been given to Chevy to get volume and cash flow up and Cadillac to move up to give Buick some room.

      I love Pontiac and can say I was not proud of what they had done to Pontiac for many years. While the die hards may have accepted the fancy Chevys they did not fool many others.

      It was good for me as I got my 04 GTP for almost $10K off sticker with my GM money and incentives they were offering. I had wished I had pulled the trigger on the G8 when I could have gotten $7K off sticker. Note the GTP not a great car as some would like you to think. It did some good things but lack much detail for what a car in this class should have had.

      The bottom line of all of this is Pontiac is gone and it is not coming back anytime soon if ever. May be in the long distant future if there is a need for a HSV like division they could do something like that but with the increasing CAFE that would be difficult.

      I drive a HHR SS now with 290 HP because Pontiac did not offer the Turbo in anything but the Solstice. I wanted MPG, Power and the ability to haul a Soap Box Derby car that is 6 feet long. This vehicle does it with 13 sec quartermiles, 25 MPG around town and will easily top 150 MPH. Note I never was a HHR fan and was not really a Turbo fan but one test drive showed me what I wanted and Pontiac had no real performance outside a Solstice or the G8.

      To repair Pontiac would have been very difficult and expensive. Even today it would still be the same. To be honest GM is just now getting a handel on performance models again and learning how to market them with the divisions they have. Lets face it I still get people who see my HHR SS and think I built it or just added the emblems till I show them the Turbo engine. GM had no clue or money to market performance till after the Chapter 11. We are now seeing them advetise the Camaro and Vette. They are now just starting to push the SS sedan and we will see much more to come.

      Untill you see what more is to come it is crazy to judge GM based on what is just anounced. THings are not like they used to be where they would release much of the info 5 years out like they did on the Camaro. Much of what you will learn will be 16 months out unless you have a inside connection or a leak. GM is dark today on what you will see till late in the game. I think you will be shocked as some of the things to come.

      Trust me the cry for Pontiac will always be there with the die hards but GM will not live or die based on them.

      Pontiac is like my grand parents and my dad, They are gone now and not coming back to this world. But they will always remain in my heart.

      If GM can make Chevy #1 in the world, Make Cadillac able to out sell BMW and Benz in the US market and make Buick a viable choice to many in the US market then we can sit down and talk Pontiac.

    • #40935
      RjION
      Participant

      RIP


    • #40936
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @HHRSS:

      1. As a Pontiac loyalist, I have no intention of “stepping back and seeing what GM has ready for Buick.” I’m not a Buick loyalist.
      2. I thank you for loving Pontiac. However, I’m not sure that GM was actually TRYING to fool anyone about what it had done to it. I think it was fairly common knowledge that Pontiac was a “fancy Chevy”; I certainly knew it. But it didn’t bother me; a Pontiac is a Pontiac. If the vehicle has Pontiac nameplates/insignia, it IS OFFICIALLY a Pontiac, isn’t it?
      3. I’m glad that you own a Pontiac; so do I.
      4. Yes, Pontiac IS gone, FOR NOW. Yes, it might NOT be coming back SOON. I do NOT agree that it will NEVER come back.
      5. It was never suggested that GM can’t survive without Pontiac. I DO suggest that reviving Pontiac will bring MANY Pontiac loyalists back into the GM fold, as well as be a PR coup. I think it would be a major plus for GM, a coup.
      6. I’m sorry that your grandparents have passed-away; so have mine. Yes, your grandparents are gone now, and aren’t coming back to this world. That’s because PEOPLE who have died CANNOT come back. CAR BRANDS that have died, CAN.
      7. I’m all for Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac achieving the goals you mentioned, IF IT MEANS PONTIAC CAN RETURN.
      8. Finally, it’s interesting that you mentioned BMW. How popular was Pontiac? It had roughly the same sales as BMW!

    • #40958
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      Good grief, give it up allready… Moanalua, Pontiac is not returning, I thought we settled this over a year ago…

    • #41086
      TheWahlberg
      Participant

      I find myself a Chrysler fan. While I’m only 17, I was very excited to hear that they brought back the Challenger and have plans on bringing back the ‘Cuda by 2014.

      I believe that if there is any chance at restoring Pontiac, then they should try going at it this way. They could release a Firebird Or GTO that is a slightly modified Camaro and perhaps use the Chevy badging, give it a limited run, and see how things go.

      Just a thought.

    • #41091
      Lex
      Participant

      I have good news for Pontiac fans, I was at my local Buick GMC Cadillac dealer and noticed they have a 2012 Pontiac Trans am. Well it’s actually a rebadged Camaro, but it was brand new! And it’s actually something that this dealer does, they modify Camaro’s to make them look like Trans am’s with all new front end, rear bumper, taillights and all that badging. Now anyone can actually buy a brand new Trans am (little over priced though). Also, that sales guy told me that there is a big chance that GM will revive Pontiac.

    • #41093
      TheWahlberg
      Participant

      I’ve seen those redesigns for a couple years. It looks alright, but eh. What all did the sales guy say about it, Lex?

    • #41094
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      Lolz @Lex The sales guy must have connections that “Run Deep”. He must be looking for “new roads”. 🙂

      Also — this:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/12/hot-or-not-transam-depot-6t9-goat/

    • #41105
      Babersher
      Participant

      Wow, this thread is still going on, hasn’t been a couple of years of the same people(im looking at you Moanalua ) arguing the same thing over and over again?

      Long Live Pontiac! 🙂

      With the arrival of the SS, I think we can officially say Pontiac is never going to come back, the time has arrived to let go of Pontiac and focus on the future of GM.

    • #41113
      Catarbloodlock
      Participant

      One of the top comments said that GM refused to sell the brand to another interested automaker, I think that GM is making a huge mistake, there is another iconic American brand that we almost lost to stupid corporate desisson, and the employees steped up to buy the brand from its parent corporation and turned the company around.

      The brand is Harley-Davidson, it’s parent company AMF ( a bowling ally manufacturing company, not a transportation manufacture ! DOH!!!) and if the employees hadn’t bought it, it wouldn’t have become one of the most recognized American brands which is the only one really behind the top four or five known world wide brands, those being McDonalds, Coke a Cola, Ford and Microsoft, and or GM and/or Chrysler

      We as fans of Pontiac should come together and pool our money and give GM a good reason to sell to US! There is millions and millions of fans of the Pontiac brand!!

      UNITED WE STAND…. ooops to corny but you get the idea.

      Just a thought… How about you tell me yours?

    • #41115
      Deralds
      Participant

      Pontiac (gto 496) 🙂 p.s. Pontiac 6.6L trans am GM shoulded have the right to a car like those. Pontiac should be able to make cars like those again spank chevys and everyother auto companies butt and put them back in line. Sorry but chevy is too expensive for crap cars when pontiac sells they’re stuff for half the price and still looks better and hauls the same or half the time more power. Gm just needs to bring the company back and let them do their own thing, its not their fault the other companies coulded keep up 😉

    • #41116
      Deralds
      Participant

      Just think what would happen if GM came back in five years and revived a sleeping beauty. Brought back the legendary cars at this point in time when the other companies were creating monster cars like 2014 viper and corvette and boom out of no where gm says pontiac is coming back, and out of nowhere liike whoa where have you been pulls out the 2015 or whenever pontiac trans am on the starting line all pontiac’d out and the new camaros and mustangs lined up beside it and not knowing what this cars about to do to this world. Its headlights open up and it says,”..did you miss me” voom!! Gone. 6.6l power made by pontiac engineers into a 21 century monster that transcends from the last great transam the 78 smokey and the bandit 6.6l. Wouldn’t the other companies be pissed lol. That’s would be the best commercial ever… go pontiac.

    • #41119
      Alex Luft
      Keymaster

      @Deralds Let me bring some realism to some of your posts:

      “Pontiac should be able to make cars like those again spank chevys and everyother auto companies butt and put them back in line.”

      Pontiac hasn’t “made” cars since the 70s. It has been GM engineering, GM design, and GM manufacturing, among other things. Pontiac was just a brand…

      As for the “spanking” and putting other others “back in line”… good luck with that. What you’re suggesting will result in a higher price of the vehicle, and most consumers who don’t happen to be Pontiac die-hards will not pay a premium for a product (no matter how good) from a tarnished brand.

      “Sorry but chevy is too expensive for crap cars when pontiac sells they’re stuff for half the price and still looks better and hauls the same or half the time more power.”

      For the last decade, all Pontiac vehicles were rebadged Chevrolets or Holdens. They sold for pretty much the same price (give or take) as Chevys. The difference was that Pontiacs were heavily discounted, and Chevys (for the most part) were less so… hence, Pontiac was deeply unprofitable, hence its demise.

      As for Chevy making “expensive crap cars”… well, that could qualify as the most misinformed statement of the year. Name me one Chevrolet vehicle on sale today that meets your criteria for being “expensive” and “crap”.

    • #41121
      Babersher
      Participant

      @alex

      Chevy Colorado 🙂

    • #41150
      Kevin_A
      Participant

      The Chevy Colorado isnt crap, it’s just out dated. It’s still a good little truck.

    • #41152
      PontiacKid
      Participant

      Sup guys im new here and just wanted to let my thoughts out to see what others think about it so let me know.

      To be honest i was a little upset they Pontiac filed for bankruptcy. the reason i was
      upset was because i think Pontiac could have been saved and probably never even

      come close to being bankrupt if Saturn, Saab, and Hummer were never born(Again imo
      not trying to start fights). think about nowadays people look at style and “fancy” or

      “cool” and dont forget cheap. to be honest thats what i think Pontiac would stand for. Pontiac was actually my favorite car company growing up cause its american muscle

      unique and you dont see them in the streets as much as you see Camaros, Mustangs, Chargers, Civics, Accords, etc dont get me wrong if GM had to choose i would choose

      giving up Buick i see way less buicks then pontiacs in the streets. can someone tell my why GM choose to keep buick ? because pontiac and Buick uses the same engines but

      the exterior of pontiacs look better imo. Now GM should have never gone lazy and came out with cars like the Aztec and Sunfire. i also think that pontiac was giving the

      whole spotlight to Chevy if they are basically successful why not sacrifice some models and give it to Buick or Pontiac? Plus Saturn and Saab were going Nowhere while

      Hummer vehicles waste way to much gas since Gas prices started rising when the company was introduced.

      Now on to the style of the vehicles. most cars from Pontiac lived up to their slogan for example the Grand Am GT W/Ram Air Hood with its mean front look? a car that GM

      made some mistakes with such as the car takes only 14 Gallons of gas (-.-). i waste $45per week the car isnt that bad on mileage it just dosent take enough Gas imo. Also

      for a car that as much pull as the grand am i would expect it to come with Manual transmission or at least make some with leather seats… another great car the Grand

      Prix a car that i would like to car the Grand Am’s older brother with instead of a 3.4L its a 3.8L /Supercharged Engine. another car with a mean look to it and great interior

      unlike the grand am. so mistake Pontiac or you would say “GM” was naming the cars for example The Grand Am, Bonneville, Sunfire. Pontiac needed more attractive Names or cars that needed more engine options, leather seats, manual transmission etc.

      to get more attention and to make people get interested. And Finally The G Series Pontiac last attempt to stay in the business. i personally think they actually did good with the sales especially the G6(Grand Am), and G5, G8(GTO).

      i think the G3 was basically trying to be a Honda Fit since they look exactly the same but actually gives more variety in american cars then imports. G5/Cobalt. now i think

      that the G5 might actually have sold more if it had came to compete with the Cobalt and the Srt4’s(Neon,Caliber,Dart) including turbo or atleast supercharged engines. G6(6 gen Grand Am) even though with its weird name the Grand Am was the car that Pontiac Sold the Most the Grand Am has lived up to its Name.

      And finally the G8 or would i say the GTO was both my favorite Cars that Pontiac has had produced alone with the Ws6. is just a beast of a car and who ever has it is probably having fun right now lol.

      and before im done here i would like to say that in my opinion American Muscle cars are dying since alot of american cars are losing money while Japanese are making

      money AND while they have a big variety of cars while American muscle its usually Mustangs, Camaros, Chargers or Challengers. GM needs to make a comeback soon and

      show the meaning of true muscle by letting each company have their own unique body and engine styles. in the end i will miss Pontiac Since i think they would have made more money if it havent been for the little mistakes and maybe even releasing the
      04-06 Gto Ram Air Concepts.

    • #41153
      yabadabadoo
      Participant

      PontiacKid, many of us while disappointed, well actually shocked at the time; when looking at the recent history and poor product managment we see why Pontiac was canceled as a brand. The bottom line is the market is insanely competitive like never before, GM could not continue to support a brand that lost so much market share while its other key brands were also loosing market share. Pontiac has no global presence this is another issue. Personally one of my all time favorite vehicles is the Pontiac Fiero, love this car. And then as you mention all the other history behind the make. Like its other brands GM really lost sight of its brand integrity and strategy for its brands across the board and the consumer recognized this and moved to other brands and products. And thus the rest is histroy ect… Bankrupt ect…

    • #41155
      PontiacKid
      Participant

      Since im bored i decided to express my ideas about trims and cars.

      Trims-

      SE (IMO) 2.2L EcoTech is a good engine as for the 2.4L needs serious work tends to over heat and/or engine tends to get flooded

      GT (IMO) 3.4L Catalyst need some work also tends to overheat in about 130K Miles driving the car.

      SLE (IMO) should be limited edition cars with limited amount made.

      GTP (IMO) maybe all options with be supercharged?

      SSEI (IMO) more fuel Economic 4 Cylinders?

      GXP (IMO) TurboCharged 4 & 6 Cylinder Engines? 5more HP then GTP needs to change waste of money for Pontiac.

      WS6 (IMO) Firebird Trans AM Exclusive engine

      SS (IMO) maybe introduce it to Pontiac?

      RA (IMO) RA = Ram Air for cars with Ram Air Hoods, for example there is a Honda Civic Si – RR maybe we can have
      GT – RA, Ws6 – RA. i think it would look cool and maybe they can be limited editions like only a certain amount would be made.

      Models-

      Grand Am – Compact Sedan / Coupe Option (IMO) needs a package that comes with leather seats, receives more gallons of gas.

      Grand Prix – Mid-Size Sedan (IMO) a great looking car, change muffler design, maybe better performance package with something different like 3.8L Turbo?

      Bonneville – Full-Size Sedan (IMO) don’t like the front of this car needs a little something that the Grand Am(95-05 Package)

      GTO – Sports Coupe (IMO) needs to come with sun/moon roof Options !!!, should maybe be a sports car thats between the G8 and Trans Am,, compete with Mustang,
      SRT-8’s, needs to fix the way the front looks grills can be pushed back a bit, Headlights can look a little bit meaner.

      Trans Am – American Muscle Coupe (IMO) car needs to be the face of this company and needs that mean monster/Beast look to it(98-04) Package, Also should be a unique car compete with Camaro.

      G3 – 3Ddr & 5dr Options (IMO) compete with honda fit? Something different, affordable, turn some heads from people hellaflush/slam, Gas Saver, if pontiac has money maybe even make hybrid, looks like a car that girls would love to see them selves in?

      G5 – Coupe & Sedan (IMO) this is another car girls would love to see themselves in. compete with SRT-4’s and cobalt SS Turbo? car should come turbo and supercharged options.

      G6 – Family Size Sedan (IMO) Combination of the Grand AM and Grand Prix? G6 name should just stay as Grand AM and use the name G6 and to have a combination of the Grand AM and Grand Prix.

      G8 – Family (full size) (IMO) Sport Sedan be the fasted performance car in Pontiac compete with Gt500? Viper, Corvette.

      Vibe – Wagon/Crossover (IMO) like the look to the Vibe maybe compete with ford focus hatchback ? Turbo engine? fuel efficient engine AWD,RWD,FWD ?

      Torrent – Sport SUV (IMO) compete with jeep AWD, RWD compete with Jeep Liberty?

      Aztek – Family SUV (IMO) Needs a whole new makeover, i dont like how it looks thew the outside but the inside should stay the same.

      Montana – Family Van (IMO) this van is a great van its a great comfortable van that is fuel efficient should be brought back.

      Any Opinions?

    • #41375
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Let me make this clear I am a Pontiac Fan. The first car I ever was in was a 1960 Ventura and even my son first ride home from the hospital was in a SSEI. I still own a Pontiac, Show it and have wins on a national level. I also am a Pontiac historian and have had stories published on Fiero history and worked to verify some of the prototype parts I own. In my life I have driven just about every kind of Pontiac there is and can set up a Tri Power as well as anyone. I even carry a copy of Smokey and the Bandit on my Phone. Now that my back ground is out the way her is my opinion.

      The fact is Pontiac may come back in a model or two but no where in the near future. The fact is GM has a full plate just fixing 3 division and the cost and man power involved it tremendous.

      Now since I am in the heart of the Pontiac collectors circles here is what I observed for year since I love the older traditional Pontiacs and even some of the later models.

      One thing that happened is in 1979 the last 400 Pontiac V8 was built. From this time on it split many of the Pontiac owners as to many Pontiac died that day. I never really wanted to think that way but looking back it was the beginning of the end. Yet to day man Pontiac fans reject anything post 1979 and now I can see there point. Accept for some rare acceptions the later Pontiacs were pretty much a Chevy wit cladding and red lighted dashes with a Buick engine if you were lucky.

      Out side of the Fiero the line up really was not much Pontiac other than styling and some suspension specs. My GTP Comp G was a Impala under the shell. My SSEI was pretty much a Olds/Buick under the shell. Trans Ams were just Camaros with some restyling.

      The fact is GM really did not have much direction or understanding that Pontiac had set itself apart in the 60’s and slowly melted it away over the years. Even in the end out side of the G8 and Solstice the Performance division had no real performance.

      I had expected great out cry at the Pontiac nationals where over 1.000 Pontiac show cars and race cars gather every year. To my surprise no one was thrilled but few complained as Pontiac has been expected to fail and at the end other than two car we really had little to lose.

      Now I also know how the Automotive business world works and Pontiac was too damaged to save at the bail out time. If they had been popular in China then things may have been different but Pontiac had no global salvation to fall back on. Buick would also be gone if not for China.

      Right now GM needs to get back to the core market and get the high volume high MPG cars they need to sell in greater volumes. The market is very tough now and we have not yet seen the last MFG failure as more will come. Few companies today can go it alone as many are working with others to share development cost.

      Pontiac was far from a profit center in the later years. To make the division right would require billions of dollars on a line that would be low volume. To make the money back Pontiac would no longer be affordable. The other paradox is to make it affordable it would just end up being a SS clone already offered at Chevy with some styling changes.

      The one thing will never lose is our cars and history as they will always be with us.

      I am sorry to say there are just too few of us that care to bring it back. You can keep trying and I encourage it but don’t expect miracles just as the business case is just not there.

      There are many in GM that would love to be the one to bring it back. I speak to many who are well placed and still own their Pontiacs. Even Lutz tried to save them but it was too late by the time he arrived. If he had had 8-10 years before he arrived they may have had a chance.

      This is one topic I wish GM would prove me wrong but as much as I wish and hope the reality keeps springing up that it is not to be.

      The fact is GM still has a hell of a lot of work yet to do with Cadillac, Buick and Chevy. They are still 10 years from where they need to be in fixing these divisions.

      While we all love to think as an enthusiast we still have to face the reality that automakers are there to make a profit. It is the ugly truth that sits in the corner. If bringing Pontiac was a easy profit we would have it but the fact is the return on investment would be small when money is much more needed in other areas.

      Keep in mind we are not alone as Mercury, Plymouth and other fans are in the same boat. Companies do not need the many models they once had and if they can not make them different enough then you damage both models.

      To me it was a crime at the end with the G4 an G5. Where was the 2.0 Turbo in the G5 and G6? Killing the TA with no other RWD planned in a performance division? Aztek? GM just had no clue of what Pontiac was or should have been.

      Some may not like what I say but I say it from a Pontiac fans heart and know tossing BS on the realty is not going to change what really happened. Time for us to look at things as they were and how they failed and understand todays market at the cost involved to bring them back vs. profits.

      Also we need to define what a real Pontiac is. Is it a styling change on a Chevy or is it a vehicle built as a Pontiac with its own powertrain/ This is Cadillac dilemma now as they have no true Cadillac engine. I have the same V6 in my Malibu as the CTS.

      Like I said they still have work to do.

    • #45607
      ATSisBest
      Participant

      I hate how everyone wants Pontiac to be a FULL-ON performance brand. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with an I4 engine here and there (Just not the 2.4L I4). They could even add an ECO Hybrid trim to each model. With a 2.5L Twin Turbo I4 with 327 HP. Plug In and 2-Mode technology.

      They should come out with models like the;

      Grand Am (Comparable to Saab 9-3)
      Grand Prix (Comparable to Chevrolet Malibu or Buick Regal) Redesign 97-08 models together and improve
      Bonneville (Comparable to Chevrolet Impala or Cadillac XTS) Keep the GXP body with new interior improvements
      Trans Am (Comparable to Chevrolet Camaro)
      GTO (Comparable to Holden Commodore Coupe)
      G6 (Comparable to Chevrolet Malibu or Buick Lacrosse) Redesign it to look more like the original G6 Concept
      G8 (Comparable to Chevrolet SS or Holden Sportwagon)
      Vibe (Comparable to the Mercedes Benz GLK, Subaru Outback, Jetta Sportwagon)
      Torrent (Comparable to Saab 9-4X)

      Now when I say comparable I don’t mean literally rebadging the cars, GM should take those comparable designs and even redesign those specifically for Pontiac, (kind’ve what GM did with the Equinox, Terrain and Anthem. Acadia, Traverse, Enclave and so on).

      GM should put these engines in Pontiacs;
      ENV –
      Hybrid Plug In / 2-Mode 2.5L Twin Turbo I4 327 HP SIDI
      SE –
      2.5L I4 202 HP SIDI
      2.3L Turbo I4 273 HP SIDI
      GT –
      2.8L V6 215 HP SIDI VVT D.O.D
      3.8L V6 328 HP SIDI VVT D.O.D
      SLE –
      3.2L V6 247 HP SIDI VVT D.O.D
      3.9L V6 341 HP SIDI VVT D.O.D
      GTP –
      3.6L V6 314 HP SIDI VVT D.O.D
      4.1L SC I6 407 HP SIDI VVT D.O.D
      SSEi –
      2.9L SC V6 266 HP SIDI VVT D.O.D
      3.4L Twin Turbo V6 433 HP SIDI VVT D.O.D
      GXP –
      4.6L Turbo V8 459 HP VVT D.O.D
      5.6L SC V8 538 HP VVT D.O.D
      6.5L V8 592 HP VVT D.O.D

      All V8′s and V6′s have displacement on demand (V8′s shut off 4 cylinders while V6′s shut off 2). ECO buttons available with every 6 speed auto transmission.

      Transmissions –
      6 Speed Auto with TapShift / DSG / ECO Low Shift Points
      7 Speed Auto with TapShift / DSG
      8 Speed Auto with Tapshift / DSG
      6 Speed Manual with SynchroRev Match
      7 Speed Manual with SynchroRev Match

      Pricing: (Trying to stick with the “Affordable Performance” ordeal. . . .)

      Grand Am Compact Sedan – $18,000
      Grand Prix Mid-Size Sedan – $21,000
      Bonneville Full-Size Sedan – $24,000
      Trans Am Sport Coupe – $19,000 Sport Convertible – $22,000
      GTO Sport Coupe – $25,000
      G6 Mid-Size Sedan – $23,000 Coupe – $20,000 Convertible – $25,000
      G8 Sport Sedan – $27,000 Sport Wagon – $29,000
      Vibe Sport CUV/Wagon – $26,000
      Torrent CUV – $25,000

      Factories –

      Grand Am – Lordstown Assembly
      Grand Prix – Fairfax Assembly
      Bonneville – Orion Assembly
      Trans Am – Oshawa Assembly
      GTO – Elizabeth Assembly
      G6 – Orion Assembly
      G8 – Elizabeth Assembly
      Vibe – Cami Automotive
      Torrent – Cami Automotive

      What’s your opinion of Pontiac based on this? What models do you see unnecessary? Would you buy a Pontiac listed here? (No cocky comments please)

    • #46414
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Hello everyone, this is Pontiac rulz. it’s been a while, cant believe this thread is still going lol love it.

    • #48800
      tjkroeker
      Participant

      I think it would be nice to have the brand back, but then, I am a sentimental type of guy, and my wife says if you want to have a definition for “sentimental” just drop everything in front of the “m”. My dad was a Pontiac guy. Maybe the reason I miss Pontiac so much is partly because I miss my dad; I really cannot think of one without thinking of the other. If anyone over at GM is serious about bringing it back, there needs to be some pretty firm rules.
      1. No ugly plastic flop-along-as-you-drive-down-the-highway plastic crap on the exterior. For that matter, get rid of the plastic inside as well.
      2. Pontiac needs to be Pontiac. Sure, interchange the invisible stuff like steering wheel shafts and electronic gizmos. But keep the engineering an design separate from the other brands.
      3. No boats-to-bobsleds thinking. You do not need to build every class of vehicle to be great. Pick a niche (i.e. the performance division) and go nuts.
      4. No GTO rental fleet models. The recent GTO was a joke. My wife said it looked like a rental. Ford showed the heritage in Mustang, but it was as relevant to speed freak as it always/ever was.

      I am sure there are folks who can think of other rules, but these would be a good start.

    • #49076
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @PontiacRulz: Nice to hear from you again! How are you? You last post was over two months ago, but I’d like to commend you again for STARTING this thread over two years ago. The last person to post before me, posted only 5 days ago, and his post was positive, agreeing that Pontiac SHOULD return. After over two years, I still agree.


      @EvanR
      : I agree with you that a revived Pontiac shouldn’t HAVE to be a full-on performance brand. For me, a Pontiac is a Pontiac, whether it’s a full-on musclecar like the GTO, or a regular vehicle like the G6. I’d also like to commend you for your extensive list of vehicles that a revived Pontiac could offer, accompanied by details such as engine offerings and how those Pontiac models might compare to models offered by other brands. GM’s front office ought to at least consider your post as a start, and if they want, they can create their own ideas for a revived Pontiac.


      @tjkroeker
      : You’re the person who posted just 5 days ago. I’m a sentimental type of guy, too, and my sentiments revolve around the Pontiac brand. It was my parents’ first new car, and each and every vehicle I have ever owned–including the one I own now–has been a Pontiac. Indeed the ideas you shared in YOUR post would ALSO be a good start, like EvanR’s. I agree that the recent GTO wasn’t much in terms of styling, but that car could FLY, and that’s the MAIN thing for a musclecar. In terms of performance, I think the recent GTO does the earlier GTOs proud. (By the way, I myself have owned 5 GTOs in the past: A ’67, a’68, a ’69, and two ’70s).

      I hope all of you–and others who posted on this thread over the past two years, supporting a return of Pontiac–CONTINUE pushing for Pontiac’s return. As Carly Simon famously sang some 40 years ago: It’s “the right thing to do.”

    • #49078
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @PontiacRulz: Nice to hear from you again! How are you? Your last post was over two months ago, but I’d like to commend you for STARTING this thread over two years ago. The last person to post before me, posted only 5 days ago, and his post was positive, agreeing that Pontiac SHOULD return. After over two years, I still agree.


      @EvanR
      : I agree with you that a revived Pontiac shouldn’t HAVE to be a full-on performance brand. For me, a Pontiac is a Pontiac, whether it’s a full-on musclecar like the GTO, or a regular vehicle like the G6.


      @EvanR
      , @PontiacKid: I’d like to commend both of you for your extensive lists of vehicles that a revived Pontiac could offer, accompanied by details such as engine offerings and how those Pontiac models might compare to models offered by other brands. GM’s front office ought to look at your posts as a start, and if they wish, they can create their own ideas for a revived Pontiac.

    • #49080
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @tjkroeker: You’re the person who posted just 5 days ago. I’m a sentimental type of guy, too, and my sentiments revolve around the Pontiac brand because I grew-up with the brand. My parent’s first new car was a Pontiac, and each and every vehicle I have ever owned–including the one I own now–has been a Pontiac. Indeed the ideas you shared in YOUR post would ALSO be a good start, like EvanR’s and PontiacKid’s. I agree that the recent GTO wasn’t much in terms of styling, but that car could FLY, and that’s the MAIN thing for a musclecar. In terms of performance, I think the recent GTO does the earlier GTOs proud. I myself have owned 5 GTOs: A ’67, a ’68, a ’69, and two ’70s.


      @PontiacRulz

      Evan R
      PontiacKid

      I hope all of you–and everyone else who posted on this thread over the past two years, supporting a return of Pontiac–CONTINUE pushing for Pontiac’s return. As Carly Simon famously sang some 40 years ago: It’s “the right thing to do.”

    • #49081
      Moanalua
      Participant

      My apologies for the double post. The original post–#49076–didn’t seem to register, so I generated posts #49078 and #49080, and submitted them. After I shut-down and logged-in again, I found that ALL THREE registered. I had all kinds of problems getting #49076 posted, originally. My apologies again. I guess the good thing about the second series of posts is that I was able to include PontiacKid, whom I had forgotten to address in the original post.

    • #49264
      PontiacRulz
      Participant

      Don’t get mad at me lol, I just bought a new 2013 Chevy Cruze a few months ago and traded in my 2000 Grand Prix. I will always love Pontiac and I’ll probably buy one again one day and restore it or something. But I have moved on I guess you could say. The Cruze is a great car. Yea it’s fun to think about what Pontiac could have been if it were still around but it’s not and I dont think it’s coming back but who knows. like I said though, you can always buy a used one one day and keep it or something. Heck with all the performance chevys there are between the camaro, corvette, and the new ss coming out, Pontiac being gone is not that big of a deal really. I do wish that chevy would come out with a cheaper 4 door performance sedan like what the Grand Prix was (the new SS sedan is too expensive). We will never forget Pontiac, I know I wont, I grew up around the brand and it will always mean a lot to me but I do think it’s time to move on. Check out the the vehicles that GM has now between chevy, buick, gmc and cadillac….they are bad ass! Pontiac gone but never forgotten! For anyone that hasnt checked out the Chevy Cruze, do it! It is an amazing car. My Grandfather just bought a new Cadillac ATS and it’s also a really nice car. GM is doing so good and I’m glad to see it from my favorite automaker. Buy from American companies! American cars rule!

    • #49280
      Moanalua
      Participant

      @PontiacRulz: Thanks for responding. No, I’m not mad at you. This is a free country, and people can purchase whichever brand of vehicle they want. For myself, however, my roots in Pontiac go deep. Pontiac first entered my life in ’66, when my parents purchased their first NEW car, a ’66 LeMans (they had a series of used cars up to that point). I eventually inherited it, and I felt it was a great car, and it wasn’t even a musclecar like the GTO. It was that ’66 LeMans that hooked my on Pontiac. I agree that if Americans purchase a new vehicle, it SHOULD be from an American brand. If I had to purchase a new vehicle today, it would be a Dodge. Yes. I know that Dodge is somewhat Italian, as it’s majority-owned by Fiat. But, it had long been an American brand, even before it was majority-owned by DaimlerChrysler, a German company. Today, Chrysler Group is still considered part of the Detroit Big Three, so I think it’s sufficiently “American.” I don’t think I could purchase a Ford; it was too strong a rival to Pontiac.

      To all the rest of you out there who remain steadfast in seeing Pontiac return, please continue. I would ask you to note all the websites and threads you get when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”. Pontiac was a strong brand, #3 at GM when it was retired. It may have been the most popular American brand in Canada. If there is a defunct American car brand that makes the best case for being revived, it’s Pontiac. Pontiac has interwoven itself with my life; it’s the only brand of vehicle I’ve ever owned, and I still own one today. If Pontiac has been as much a part of your life as it has been of mine, please continue pushing for its return. We’ve got a lot of company, and as consumers it’s something that we have every right to do. May Pontiac return some day!

    • #51114
      solotworacer
      Participant

      AS a former automotive sales person, 36+ years of selling only GM products, I truly have seen were some of the past GM clients(Pontiac owners) have left and went to other manufacturers. AS much as GM and some misinformed people on this forum would like to think, most people who purchased Pontiacs are not and will not be chevy owners. I have heard this many times on the showroom floor. I being one of them. Since Pontiacs demise my wife has had a Jetta and a 200 and her next car more than likely will not be a GM. I choose the car she drives. Its a fact and GM is afraid to bring up the subject.

    • #51196

      @solotworacer I’ll happily bring up the subject!

      A few points about your comment:

      1. Your assertion that “most people who purchased Pontiacs are not and will not be Chevy owners” is more of an opinion than it is a “fact”. I’m sure we can both cite many individual examples, but such instances aren’t necessarily representative of the entire Pontiac-owning populous. Coincidentally, I have worked in automotive retail as well, mostly on the marketing side… and I’ve seen several Pontiac owners buy a Chevy as a replacement vehicle.

      All that is to say that as much as I appreciate your 36+ years in car sales, I remain a fan of an educated and informed dialogue, and simply can’t accept the claim as hard fact until seeing some hard numbers.

      2. From a statistical point of view, it’s very possible that Pontiac (and even Saturn) customers could have purchased a non-GM vehicle as a replacement for their Pontiac (or Saturn), and could have then returned to Chevrolet (or another GM product) after that. For instance, a Pontiac buyer could have purchased a… let’s say… Volkswagen, and then traded that in for a Chevy (Buick, GMC, or Cadillac). That is more than possible, but the “retention” statistics won’t show it since GM would have “conquested” a VW customer, thereby boosting its conquest rate but dropping its retention rate.

      3. But let’s, for a minute, forget about the conversion rate of Pontiac owners to Chevrolet buyers… whatever that might be. Perhaps an even more important question is whether GM should have “chased” after Pontiac (or Saturn) buyers in the first place. In other words, were these customers “desirable” for GM? I’m not suggesting that the answer is “no”, but rather just wondering about it. The question is interesting to me given that Pontiac was a continuous money loser for GM over the last decade or so of its existence.

      4. In regards to the vehicle choices you’ve made for your wife: I can’t necessarily comment on them from a financial perspective, but I will say this. Not looking at financial figures and payment-related info:
      – The Chevy Cruze is a better mainstream compact car than the Jetta (my ex happens to own a brand new fully-loaded 2012 Jetta Sedan TDI)
      – The Chevy Malibu is a far better vehicle than the 200 (it’s still a Sebring that was designed back in 1999, and dates back to an even older roots)

      There are plenty of examples that one can bring up to demonstrate the above statements (about Cruze vs. Jetta and Malibu vs. 200) to be true, from quantitative measures (such as overall performance, safety, technology & connectivity) as well as qualitative/subjective ones (such as ride & handling and the “perceived quality” metric). Having said that, I’m beginning to wonder about the choices of vehicles you’ve made for your wife. Why are you punishing her? 😉

    • #73376
      Ghanim
      Participant

      Bring the pontiac back

    • #74514

      Wow! Surprising to see that even after pages and how many years’ worth of discussion, this thread continues.

    • #512975
      ThePontiacLovah
      Participant

      I would LOVE to see a return of Pontiac, they were a niche market
      now that ford killed their sedans I think the Bonneville should make a return as the GOLDEN JUBILEE CAR!!!

      Always remain hopeful!!!

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