“I should have said this is a Pontiac THREAD, not a Pontiac SITE. And what have you to say to THAT?”
That I still can mention Saab in this thread and you can’t stop me; irrespective of GM’s historuical ownership of the brand.
“It was moronic of you to suggest that SAAB was somehow as “traditional” a brand as Pontiac.”
You’re not telling me what makes Pontiac more traditional than Saab apart from it being American. That doesn’t tell anyone anything apart from the nation of orign and says nothing of tradition.
“HOW LONG was SAAB associated with GM? HOW LONG was PONTIAC associated with GM?”
Too long on both counts…
…but at least in Saab’s brief tenure their engineers opperated independantly. You do remember the 9-3 convert was done without influence from Detroit, or how the Haldex AWD system was orchestrated by Saab’s engineers. Not great, but not bad for 20 or so years of ownership.
But in over 70 years, what can Pontiac lay claim to? If the only thing you can retort with is “Wide-trac”, then I will remind you that was a styling distiction concived by Harvey Earl and was not in the least anything to do with handling.
Pontiac never contributed anything in 70 years; Saab had it’s own hardtop convert and it’s AWD system inside of just the last 10.
The lenght of time is meaningless and does a diservice to your argument.
“Was Pontiac EVER a foreign brand?”
It was in Canada, as are every American car sold here is of a foreign brand…that includes Pontiac.
“It was a real stretch on your part to attempt to link traditional GM brands with such things as bowel movements and smack-talking.”
Well then what good is keeping a tradition in automotive circles if it doesn’t work after 30 years?
When you figure that one out, you’ll understand why ALL traditions are garbage.
“It was also a stretch on your part to link my position on SAAB with xenophobia.”
Not really, as you’ll see.
“Yes, I’m an American, and yes, I prefer American cars. That wasn’t necessarily the point. The point was that SAAB was far less identified with GM than Pontiac was.”
Not on the worlds stage it wasn’t. The world knew what a Saab was. Nobody but Americans and Canadians knew what a Pontiac was.
Thats the xenophobia. You’re suggesting that because Saab wasn’t as close to GM as Pontiac as in the US, that it was worth less on a whole on the world stage where Saab was far better recognized; it’s connection to GM less obvious.
You gotta give that attitude up.
Who cares if the connection to GM is evident or not. As you’ve stated before, this thread is (supposed to be) about Pontiac, nothing else.
“If SAAB wasn’t worth less to GM than Pontiac was, why does GM still own the rights to Pontiac?”
Merchandising! Die casts, T-shirts, key rings, and barstools – you name it, you can slap a red arrowhead on it. They make great chirsmas gifts too!
GM did the same thing with Saab, Hummer, and Saturn, and still does so with it remaing brands. It shouldn’t be a shocker to you as to why the rights to the Pontiac name are still owned by GM, they can cash in most with merchandise.
“Did I ever attempt to “dictate” which car brands can be mentioned on this thread?”
With statements like this:
“Therefore, your mention of SAAB is actually irrelevant to a GM website”
Sounds like you saying that there would be no reason to mention Saab on GMA. You’re not to tell me it isn’t relevent when it is.
“For decades, Pontiac was known for V8 performance.”
Nope, just for one decade; the 60’s. There was nothing in the Malaise era. (google that phrase)
After those years, you could get V8’s in select Pontiacs, but with the Astre, the Phoenix, the Grand Am on into the 80’s, cars like the Bonneville and Grand Prix weren’t exactly thrilling cars to drive.
From the 90’s on is pretty much a given. The Firebird got clumsier, the GTO fisseled, and the G8 was good when it would have mattered 15 years earlier. GP GXP? forget that W-body footnote.
If you think Pontiac was being revered by the public for it’s v8 powertrains after the 1960’s, you’re profoundly deluded.
“And then you mention G3s, G5s, and SV6s sitting on used-car lots. Notice that all those models AREN’T V8s.”
But they are the cars that sold the most. See? Pontiac’s best cars were the ones that people wanted and were the ones that sold. Performance didn’t matter to those people as Pontiac offered a car without a V8 that did what the consumer wanted.
“What, did Pontiac DEMAND that those models be equipped with V8s?”
You probably wanted it that way. I’m glad you didn’t get your way.
“So, what was your point?”
That for the past 30 years, NO average majority consumer walking into a Pontiac showroom cared about about Pontiac powertrains from the 1960’s.
So where is this nonsense you’re fabricating; that ‘For decades, Pontiac was known for V8 performance” when even you admit that for decades Pontiac was offering cars without V8’s.
“What were you thinking? WERE you thinking?”
What are you smoking?
“In a very real sense, Pontiac always WAS a “second Chevy.” For decades, Pontiac hadn’t offered models that Chevy didn’t.
Huh?
“Yet Pontiac was very competitive, and for years was #3 behind only Ford and Chevy.”
Proof? I’d like to see what position Pontiac was in compact and mid-size sales from 1990 onward. Otherwise, I don’t belive Pontiac was anything as compeditive as you may belive it to be.
“I personally have no problem at all with Pontiacs being Chevy “clones.” If the vehicle wears Pontiac nameplates/insignia, it’s officially a Pontiac. That’s good enough for me.”
Thankfully, you’re one of the least demanding Pontiac loyalists.
“As far as I’m concerned, a revived Pontiac need not be an “ideal traditional” Pontiac. A revived Pontiac brand can be whatever GM decides it should be.”
…also one of the more sure-footed loyalists.
“You’re right: ALL of your arguments don’t move me.”
I don’t care what anyone says, HAN SHOT FIRST.
“I would suggest that the only reasons Pontiac “couldn’t hack it” are that it didn’t sell vehicles outside of North America, and also, because of the Great Recession. The Great Recession ended over three years ago, and I would be glad to see a revived Pontiac selling outside of North America, and not just IN it.”
Povided GM can shake off that image of “unreliable American cars”. Hell, GM’s trying again to get a foot in Europe and who knows how well the ride will last in China. Be prepared to wait until that affairs are sorted before anyone inside the Rencenter says anything about Pontiac.
“15. Finally, you and I may live in the same universe, but that’s about ALL we have in common.”
Stellar nucleosynthesis, atoms, common decent…the lists goes on.
