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2004-2006 Pontiac GTO Designer Explains Why It Flopped

Although it may have been a Holden Monaro at heart, the 2004 to 2006 Pontiac GTO has been quite the hot topic for debate since it debuted for the American market. Arguments center around the fact that it wasn’t a true GTO despite its superb performance dynamics. With that in mind, the man who designed the Pontiac GTO for the 21st century recently shed some light on why it flopped.

During a roundtable discussion with Australian media, GM Global Design Vice President Mike Simcoe explained why the fifth-generation GTO failed in the U.S. in the way that it did, placing an emphasis on improper branding.

Side profile of Pontiac GTO.

“As a Chevrolet, it would have been really successful,” Simcoe commented. “It really didn’t carry itself as a GTO; it didn’t meet the expectations. The last thing you want to do is take a vehicle that’s unknown, an iconic badge/brand, and put the two together because all you’re doing is putting a target on that vehicle.”

It’s worth noting that it was actually Simcoe himself who designed the third-generation Monaro, which the badge-engineered GTO was based on.

Of course, it wasn’t just a branding issue that destined the revived GTO to fail. Other often-cited reasons for the reboot’s failure are that it was just too expensive, there wasn’t a convertible option, the design didn’t scream Pontiac muscle car, and it was competing with the retro-styled S197 Ford Mustang that came out in 2005 at a much lower price point. Even the V8-powered Mustang GT was considerably cheaper than the GTO.

That being said, the quality of the product itself is universally applauded. The interior was well-appointed—especially by mid-2000s General Motors standards—and the drivetrain was stout, with the 6.0L V8 LS2 standing as the sole powerplant for the 2005 and 2006 model years. It certainly makes one wonder what would have become of the badge-engineered GTO if it had been a Chevy product instead.

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As a typical Florida Man, Trey is a certified GM nutjob who's obsessed with anything and everything Corvette-related.

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Comments

  1. Here is the reason it failed. Lack of money to do it right.

    Bob Lutz arrived and Pontiac was a Performance division with an Aztek and no rear wheel drive performance.

    GM just killed the Camaro and Trans Am due to crash standards and lack of money to bring a totally new platform. Lutz went to the Holden as he wanted to save Pontiac. But there was no money to do all and everything right,. This is why the car had the Holden body panels and only changed the bumpers. This is why it did not have scoops in the first year. This is why the exhaust was not split to both side till a year later. Finally this is why the new gas tank was in the trunk.

    A GM head was impressed that they did the car as cheap as they did as there just was no money to get it all for 04. Even Fred Simmons told me there just was no money left for 04 so some of this waited.

    Yes they could have done a Chevelle to replace the Camaro but Lutz was more worried about saving Pontiac in the Bail Out. Chevy was safe.

    As it is the car did about as well as any coupe in this era. GM made a mistake sending it to the mid west only to find sales in California were greater. They shipped the cars back to the coast.

    A convertible would have not moved the needle much. It would have been nice but the addition of 4 doors changed the sales. Even with pending closing the G8 sold well.

    There was plans for a new GTO based on the new Camaro platform it did not look like the Camaro and was a bit edgy. This is the car they had hope to buy time for.

    But as it is Pontiac may have been better off closed. In this SUV market all GM did not need was more SUV Variations. The coupes are dying and even the Dodges mostly worked out as they were so cheap based on old platforms that were over weight and they just added power to off set it.

    Even then these cars did not save Chrysler as they were sold to the French now.

    There is a lot of could of would of and should have but that is all 20 years ago.

    The best thing for Pontiac is to return as a focused limited model sold at Buick and GMC. They would not have SUV models and just focus on Coupe Sedan and roadster models.

    I would love to see a Banshee on an updated C7 platform.

    Reply
    1. @Hyperv6 The GTO was 04-06. You’re talking about Lutz trying to save Pontiac in the bailout. The bailout was at the end of 2008. GTO was long dead by that point. Your story has merit, but not for the GTO. Timeline doesn’t match up even remotely.

      Reply
      1. Pete. GM was broke and GM was going down and Lutz knew it the day he started, the GTO was a quick start low cost project to see if it would buy time. By then the G8 was here and the Solstice. The GTO was never a long term car as the plans were for the delayed Camaro platform that came too late.

        There is tons of merit if you use all the facts and admissions of those tied to these cars. I would recommend Lutz book.

        Reply
    2. As a retired GM worker I had to experience the ineptitude of Roger Smith when he became CEO. His policies were the death knell of the Pontiac and Oldsmobile lines. When Roger came through our Fort Wayne truck plant when H Ross Perot was running for US President. It was well known that Perot and Smith didn’t like each other. I had bought a couple of H Ross Perot for President and wore one that day to work. When Smith and his entourage came through on the electric carts of the plant, I jumped off the line and pointed to my T-shirt just to rub it in a little. Roger Smith was an IDIOT!

      Reply
      1. Roger also ruined the Cadillac, and it never recovered.

        Reply
      2. Roger was only a symptom of the damaged GM culture. They had ways and rules that really were counter productive and often cost them money and sales. Divisions were competing with each other vs working together.

        There were many issues and while Roger was responsible there was much more to it than just him.

        Read Lutz book about car guys vs bean counters and learn how deep the problems when at GM.

        Reply
      3. Well, Roger Smith retired in 1990 and Ross Perot ran for President in 1992…so I’m wondering when and if this actually took place……but hey good for you, I’m sure he thought about your shirt while he flew his private jet back to his mansion…..

        Smith gets a good amount of blame, and deserves a good amount too….. but GM under Smith is 10,000 x more interesting, I would rather be in the Smith era than the Mother Mary era, at least there were interesting cars, if only the line workers could put them together correctly now and then….

        Reply
        1. Maybe if the engineers designed them better the line.workers would have been able to put them together better.

          Reply
    3. What’s interesting is they did more when they were broke than they do now that they are flush. For the most part they don’t even try anymore. Just a bunch of phoned in crossover garbage with lazy styling and too small engines. The restructure just let them wipe a lot of their debt and obligations. Just more runway.

      Reply
  2. It was so bland, especially from the side and rear. The first year without hoods coops was plain also. I went to my local dealer to see one and he had to point it out to me as it was parked with the Grand Prix’s and I visibly couldn’t pick it out at a distance.

    Reply
    1. Success as a Chevy for all the thousands of potential buyers who lamented the lack of a second generation Lumina coupe (nee Monte Carlo).

      Reply
    2. The 04 Grand Prix was delayed a year due to a Aztek like nose on it Lutz rejected.

      Bland is not great but it could have been worse. Also a new body if they had the money would have delayed the car.

      Not sure a Chevy would have better. The Caprice SS did not top the G8.

      Reply
    3. Yes, bland off the charts. And would’ve bombed as a Chevy too.

      A GTO needs to look like a… GTO!! Not a midsize front drive from 1996. Had GM properly done the retro look, this car would’ve turned out very differently and would be a sought-after collector today.

      Reply
      1. What does a GTO look like? 64? 66? 69? 73?

        It does not matter as GM did not have the time or money to do this the way they wanted. It just was not in the budget of bankruptcy. GM started going broke long before the bailout.

        Reply
  3. Not so sure about it as a Chevy, either. The Aussie Caprice was also a bomb outside of police duty. The GTO was bland and looked European, nothing that a GTO should look like.

    Reply
    1. The Caprice was ONLY sold as fleet here. It did quite well.

      As for the GTO. Yeah, it looks a bit mild. But it isn’t unattractive by any means — and, realistically, it nailed the ’64 GTO formula perfectly. Take a good car, bolt on some good stuff and call it a GTO. I know one thing, I LOVE my ’06. And that’s coming from someone who thinks the WS6 Trans Am is prime modern Pontiac. Every time I think of selling my GTO, all I have to do is drive it and I fall in love with it again.

      -TheFOG

      Reply
      1. The Caprice sold as the SS. Non fleet.

        Reply
        1. The SS was a Commodore, the Caprice was a long wheelbase version of the Commodore.

          Reply
          1. Same platform and generally the same styling.

            It would make little difference.

            Reply
      2. When I hear comments that doesn’t look like a GTO I get fist clenching mad, why because not one automotive journalist never made mention of the Dodge Charger not looking like a Charger 4 doors and all.

        Reply
        1. Remember, its only bad when GM does it….

          Reply
    2. I think the real point was the GTO was not a Pontiac.

      The real problem was The Pontiacs since the Fiero were just styling exercises. They really were not Pontiacs.

      The GTO lacked the only thing Pontiac had left styling.

      Many are too young to have experienced the real Pontiacs. The cars with real Pontiac engines, Tri powers and hurst shifters were very much their own cars.

      I grew up with Pontiac collectors and drove many of these cars and raced them.

      They were the full package.

      The real trouble is even retro the new cars are still not what a real Pontiac was. It was more than a screaming chicken or split grill.

      Reply
      1. Do you remember the late 70s Trans Am ? Pontiac put Olds 403 and Chevy 305 in them, and this was at the height of the Smokey and the bandit popularity of the Trans Am.
        GM has been pulling nonsense on customers for a long time.

        Reply
        1. That was 79 and later and look at the sale as they declined from that point and on. The last 400 Pontiac V8 was made in 79 and most true Pontiac enthusiasts avoid the old and 301 powered Trans Ams.

          They only fooled the unwashed. The true Pontiac buyers knew.

          Reply
  4. It failed because it WASN’T a throwback, retro design of the original GTO. It looked like a Grand Prix. We wanted a new GTO that looked like an old GTO. If not, don’t call it a GTO.

    Reply
    1. Which is funny because no one in 1965 wanted a GTO that looked like a 1935 Pontiac…..they wanted a modern car.

      Reply
    2. So what year GTO should they have made it look like 1973, 1974 ? 64 ? Real GTOs.
      The 64-67 body style would be extremely difficult to design as a modern car. Possibly the 68 to 70. But come on, GM is not even producing cars anymore it’s either cross over and SUVs.

      The original GTO capitalized on the common GM A body. Which included 6 cylinder engines in cars like the Chevy Malibu and various combinations in the Buick and Oldsmobile. GM just realized an economy of scale common A body platforms.

      Even the modern Mustang has different engine levels from a 6 cylinder 4 cylinder 8 cylinder over the years.

      Reply
  5. It was an embarrassment to the GTO legacy. Had they gone retro they would have had a winner.

    Reply
    1. Performance wise is not an embarrassment.
      Go to research what most average GTO did in the quarter mile stock back in the day.
      Statistically the average vintage GTO was low / mid 14s. Yeah the Ram air IV was an exception. The LS2 would beat them stock to stock. Way better handling way better braking way better gas mileage in great comfort. Compare a stock air conditioned vintage GTO towards the modern GTO. Vintage Air condition GTOs got really high gears with killed quarter mile performance.

      I like them both and honestly my LS1 GTO is superior to my classic Pontiac.

      Reply
  6. I always thought it looked like a Sunfire on steroids.

    Reply
  7. Great car, wrong name. Pretty simple.

    Reply
    1. Great car…..wrong fans.

      Reply
  8. The biggest thing that kept me in an LS1 Trans Am then eventually into a 2005 Mustang GT back then and not a GTO was the GTO styling was bland, very bland. IMHO, both the LS1 Trans Ams and S197 Mustangs looked MUCH better than the GTO.

    Reply
    1. To add to this. This is the same reason I think the Chevy SS didn’t sell while the Chargers were a relative home run. The SS was very bland looking, too.

      Reply
      1. I agree about the SS. Like the GTO, its looks brought a yawn from a niche that values style with their performance. Every article I’ve read about the SS was a glowing review praising it’s handling, ride and performance, much like the GTO. But it just looked boring. If they brought either back and they looked the same, I still wouldn’t buy one.

        Reply
      2. My Great Grandfather opened one of the very 1st full line dealerships in the U.S.
        In 1915 he started Casner Motor Co. As other divisions were added, he added. He had Chevrolet, GMC, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, and even Opel for the short time. It’s a sad sight. GM today, for the most part, is a joke. Legacy Pensions, Suck Egg Mules being in charge too long and caring more about their bank accounts and their personal portfolios and social positions than customers. Hill billy sister kissers caudeling the testicals of China….maybe one day they’ll wake up and smell the pavement…..or just get buried under it….

        Reply
        1. He’s absolutely right. I’ve been saying it for years. GM is their own worst enemy. They’ve made some incredible things over the years but they think who they are now. Rather then ask the customer what they want, they’d rather just tell you what you want. Plus they’re sucking off the corrupt government and epa now. They need to just take a knee at this point and run the clock out

          Reply
  9. The car didn’t fail because of bland styling. After all, the first GTO looked just like a LeMans. It failed because the market that existed in the mid-60s wasn’t there anymore. In that decade. youth was king, performance was the measure of success, and nobody cared about the cost of gas. All that disappeared with Go-Go dancers and boots made for walkin’. So it was unreasonable to expect the consumer preferences of that era to return.

    Notice that the Camaro, Firebird, Barracuda, Javelin are also all gone. And Mustang has become a niche product in an SUV market.

    Reply
    1. We’re taking 2004-6 with this GTO. The 2005 Mustang was a HIT back then while the GTO missed.

      Reply
  10. Lol @ this article. Slapping a Chevrolet badge on that car would have done nothing to change it’s fate and what a farce to think otherwise. Comment section answers it – bland looking car that looked too much like a 2 door Grand Prix despite a pretty great engine. GM had terrible mismanagement of Pontiac along with most of their other subsidiary brands.

    Reply
    1. It wasn’t bland. It was actually a beautiful car. It shouldn’t have been marketed as a GTO. It wasn’t a GTO, it didn’t have any throwback to a GTO. Also, the badge engineering made it look worse than the Monaro it was based. If it looked like the GTS from Holden, it would have sold like hot cakes. This is the problem when you don’t want to do it right and expect it to sell because of “costs”, that likely would have been relatively minor if not trying to use a name that didn’t fit.

      Reply
      1. Throwback, because in 1964 everyone wanted a 1934 car…..

        Reply
        1. I’m completely with you on the stupidity of nostalgia. That being said, this is marketed to different generations. In the early 2k’s, 20 somethings couldn’t afford to buy new GTO’s, which can’t be said for muscle cars during the “muscle car” era. I would have bought this if I had the money then, but I didn’t, as a college kid. I guess we can thank the fed and USgovco for decoupling from gold and devaluing the dollar so egregiously.

          Reply
        2. “because in 1964 everyone wanted a 1934 car…..”

          In the muscle car era, there probably wasn’t much nostalgia for the days of <80 hp engines and a 30 mph speed limit.

          Reply
      2. The retro thing is so played out and also a lazy way to market a car. Imagine if they had not taken the risk on the second Gen F body.

        Reply
  11. I always liked these GTOs; however everything Pontiac produced at this point was just a badge glued to someone else’s car… even tho it had the performance chops, it looked 10yrs older than the Mustang of the same period. Seriously, look at this GTO next to an F body or SN95…

    Reply
  12. Nah, it wouldn’t have worked so well as a Chevy either. Witness what happened to the so called ‘Chevy SS’ as if Simcoe didn’t know about that one either. The platform and engines were great of course, but they needed American styled exteriors to come off in North America. The G8 kinda worked to an extent design wise, but was too little too late to save Pontiac. Old GM was carrying too many burdens to properly invest in product.

    Reply
    1. Part of that burden is the UAW and its dead weight.

      Reply
  13. The basic engine and chassis platform were fine. Get behind one of these GTO’s and listen to that engine fire up or take off from a stop and you will agree it has one of the sweetest exhaust notes of the modern era.

    The problem as I see it is the basic styling….. it was far too close in appearance to the late 80’s and 90’s Grand Am. Take the basic design, which is much too Euro-Centric and clean and dress it up in a 69 or 70 GTO Judge paint and styling cues and that could have made it far more attractive to the very people it was trying to bring in.

    Reply
  14. It failed because the Fbody was gone and everyone wanted a proper replacement. While the GTO was a better platform, it didn’t perform like an Fbody due to its increased weight and carryover LS1. The GTO eventually got the LS2 but what it needed from the start was the LS6. Period. End of story.

    Reply
  15. It looked like a smooth-sided 1994 Mustang with a hood scoop added.

    Reply
  16. It’s simple, you used an iconic vintage name but the car was neither.

    Reply
  17. Everyone that has commented so far must be blind,

    The 04 – 06 so called GTO looked like a dressed up Chevy Cavalier/ Pontiac Sunfire.

    I’ll stick with my Vette!

    Reply
    1. Funny, you got that right.

      Reply
  18. Can anyone from Pontiac fans tell about my uncle, Jack Collman, a designer at Pontiac. He married the daughter of mayor Cobo and was considered quite successful by his family.

    Reply
  19. The car looked too much like others. I still have to look at the badge to tell what car it is.

    Reply
  20. Except it was a successful car, when they put a new grill on it and called it the G8. It was the name and the name alone. As a car it was, and still is, a fantastic car. Could have positioned it against the Dodge Charger and it would have competed just fine.

    And big long Bob Lutz story guy… dude… Lutz had already been at GM for quite some time…. Car development takes longer than you think. Next year’s model has been being worked on since 2018. When the Solstice and Sky came out it was hailed as astounding that they went from concept to showroom in only four years. And that was with the opel/vauxhall base the were already working with. Hell, I think even Lotus had a sister model.

    What Lutz DID immediately do when he got there was to tell pontiac to knock it off with all the plastic door cladding, which is why the gto looks so damn plain and ovoid. Every single car in the world was shaped that way, companies just slapped plastic all over them.

    Injection modeling is a lot cheaper and easier than actual sheet metal and hydro-form and what not.

    Reply
    1. I had a Pontiac G8 for a couple of years. It was a great performer especially when you moved the shifter to the left and engaged the Sport mode. It was perfectly 50/50 balanced and you could really feel the chassis rotate through a curve. I got rid of mine due to living in the snow belt (snow and RWD just don’t mix), paint that didn’t match (I could never get the body and the bumpers to match), poor interior quality (the leather felt just like a cheap belt), and the windshield glass chipped very easily (allowing all kinds of little blips of light shining through it on a sunny day). I referred to it as a poor man’s BMW 5 series.

      Reply
    2. Bud the GTO was started not long after Lutz arrived. The GTO was done over two years and on a shoestring budget. Getting the money delayed things even then.

      Scott Settlemire FBodFather the head of the F body program outline this to us when he came yo an event with the prototype of the GTO.

      The Holden was not a long term fix but a short term patch yo a performance brand that really lacked performance.

      And no the GP was not enough. I owned a Comp G GTP and it was fun but not real Performance.

      Yes he got rid of the cladding as it was time to go.

      Look up the Zeta GTO and this is where the plans were going but time and money ran out.

      This is not my narrative but the way it went down and was related by those at GM and Pontiac.

      Reply
  21. Failed? Isn’t that the time the banks all stopped lending? Causing the great recession? Millions of people lost their homes and businesses? Their livelihoods. That is, unless you were ” in the know”? Most people didn’t know what was going on, had the carpet literally pulled out from under them. They were sucked into variable interest loans and then the lid was blown off of the indexes. Looks to me like we are avoiding some pretty big issues around that time, putting Pontiac and other car companies and many other major companies and financial institutions out of existence. And now instead of learning from all of that, we are just going to pretend like it never happened and just say “oh, the GTO failed because it was too ugly”? This is why freedom of speech is so important. Because if we don’t start being honest about things, and talk about it, its all just going to keep happening again and again. It looks like used GTOs values are going up. The folks that have them love them, so I don’t agree with the title at all. Thats what you call a hat trick if you ask me.

    Reply
  22. I had an 04 that I miss all the time. It was such a fantastic car. But I do admit it looked and awful lot like a Cavalier.

    Reply
  23. Nah, the Pontiac face fits it better. If it was a Chevrolet, they’d have probably called it Camaro and ticked off the Camaro fanbase more than the GTO did the Pontiac fanbase.

    Reply
  24. Price and looks killed it and same for the A8. Lutz came up with money for the Solstice and Sky. His is cry of money is false.

    Reply
  25. This designer was a idiot who apparently got beat up in high school and don’t know what a muscle car is or a girl. He absolutely embarrassed the GTO name. Which he also pretty much single handily bankrupt pontiac, or atleast started the beginning of the end for them. He needs to go get a job at Burger King.

    Reply
  26. Since 1988, I bought around 15 different Pontiacs and was excited when the GTO was announced. I was so disappointed with the style and price that I could not bring myself to buy one. I eventually ended up with a Grand Prix GXP (V8) and was very happy with that car. Hoping GM decides to bring back the Pontiac brand.

    Reply
  27. All these comments make me think, you know what, y’all deserve all the electric Korean crossovers that gm will shove down your throats……

    Reply
  28. It should have had a whole range built up around it, but when you’re importing cars from 7,000 miles away thats kinda hard.

    This gen Holden Commodore had a coupe, sedan, wagon, ute , lwb sedan, and even a chassis cab and 4 door ute too.

    The coupe/sedan/wagon would have been a great replacement for the Grand Prix/Bonneville, offering both V6 and V8 models with the GTO as the top model in that range, the ute could have been pushed through Chevrolet and GMC dealers as an ElCamino, the lwb-sedan could have gone to Buick to replace the Park Avenue, also an idea GM considered at one time with the Buick XP2000 show car from 1995.

    Though really the only way to make this work would have been to make a version of the Holden VT platform in the US.

    It’s a shame the GM could never figure out a global RWD platform that could have worked for the US, Europe and Australia, but hey we got BrightDrop panel vans, so woo-hoo?

    Reply
  29. I bought my 2004 GTO at the end of the year. The MSRP was too high and was in Mercedes territory. I waited it out, GM came to me with a deal I couldn’t refuse and 19.5 years later I’m still smiling. I didn’t get my driver’s license till 1976 so those 60’s and 70’s GTOs were in the past and I wanted a modern car.

    Reply
  30. Simcoe dreamed of a 1995-2001 Chevrolet Lumina coupe when he designed the Holden Monaro…

    Reply
  31. By the early to mid-2000’s the entire “large two-door coupe segment” sales were collapsing. What was left of those buyer types migrated to the smaller sporty-coupe segment (Camaro, Mustang, etc) or they life-staged out to other segments. The GTO was a nice product overall (styling subjective) but it was doomed no matter who marketed it.

    Trust me, the Monte Carlo product folks knew exactly what was happening to the segment first hand and there’s no way GM needed two large coupes in a dying segment. A few years later they had none.

    Reply
  32. This was sold as a Chevy back in 2004-06. I remember this car very well when I lived in Saudi Arabia. This was sold as the Chevrolet Lumina SS Coupe. It was so successful in the Middle East, as the top three sedans being sold in the market at the time were the Chevrolet Caprice (Holden Estate), Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis, and the Chevrolet Lumina (Holden Monaro). They were reasonably priced, provided huge amount of space and lots of power compared to the competition, which were all much slower. I owned a Caprice LS with the 5.7L V8 and a Lumina LTZ with a 3.5L V6. Great cars and are dearly missed.

    Reply
  33. It was WAY over priced.
    The 04 version was too bland.
    The interior was not great, and only available in black at first.
    And coupes don’t sell as well as 4dr sedans.
    They brought out the G8 as a 4dr replacement. Was also overpriced (and all the stupid dealers added absurd levels of ADM). And came out right when gas prices went way up, and then the recession hit and killed GM and thus Pontiac.

    Reply
  34. Friend bought a black Chevrolet SS new ($50K). He took my college age son and I for a ride it it and scared me to death. It would scream and boy, did it stick to the road. He and I knew everything about it, but we are “car guys”. He and his wife worked at two of the largest employers in our NE MS/NW AL area. He said no one at either workplace knew what it was and kept asking him if it was a Malibu. He traded it for a SUV as his daughter came along. I spotted another one that was white in our small town later, looked great. Problem with the SS, G8, and later the Camaro that was allowed to die on the vine the second time was very few people knew they even existed as gm didn’t advertise or promote. Then. “KILL IT, NOT SELLING”.

    Reply
  35. In my view, had GMH built this coupe in genuine pillarless hardtop (no B pillar) form with perhaps a few exciting body features then this otherwise excellent car would have been an absolute success.

    GMH in Australia was the world wide centre of GM rear wheel styling at the time and was turning our exceptional work. GMH did build a single example of this car in convertible form but the cost of producing one would have been prohibitive.

    Pillarless hardtop styling would have meant much higher production cost, but it would set this car apart from other vehicles. Otherwise a great car whether its wearing GMs Pontiac GTO or Holden Monaro badging.

    Reply
  36. It was a great idea. The 05 Mustang sold well because the public is more impressed with perception rather than reality. The 04-06 GTO is a great car and SHOULD be called a GTO. The people that bought chargers, challengers and mustangs for the retro styling are the same people that miss the GTO/Monaro/242 connection and there is no point trying to explain it to them. The comparison of the GTO to a grand am/Grand Prix/cavalier/SN95 is ironically proof of their disconnect considering the original GTO was a tempest which could be had in a 4cyl and looked like every other sedan on the road. Most of these people also don’t know the legacy of the Monaro either. They may not have sold as fast as GM wanted but that was part of the allure when mustangs and later Camaros sold with markups. They never intended to make much more than the 40,000 they sold here, it was just meant to bridge the gap left by the 4th and 5th gen Camaro which is exactly what it did.

    I always knew the retro thing would become played out. I’d rather have a fox body or even a 94-95 5.0 over any Mustang 2005+. But taste is subjective.

    Reply
  37. I agree with most of the comments here the GTO was too little too late most of the people who bought performance cars back in the day were either out of that phase of their life or had families to support and just had no money left over for factory Hot Rods times change and people change I’m 78 yrs old and still drive my 2 performance cars my kids will probably hall me to the cemetery in on of them 🥸

    Reply
  38. I daily drive my 2006 GTO Automatic here in Arizona… Very good simple car. My Father purchased it brand new back in early 2007… It’s like an Australian/American BMW M2/M4 without the expensive repair bills….

    Reply
  39. I felt the Pontiac GTO flopped not because it wasn’t retro, but because it did look too much like the previous gen pontiacs, and not enough like the next gen pontiacs. The G5, G6, G8, and solstice all had a pretty coherent design language. The GTO did not fit that design language, and the “wide track” style of the 98-04 cars that it would have gone great with was played out. Should have basically been a 2 door G8 with a drop top option and a modernized 455 super duty.

    Reply
  40. I never did understand Chevy tooling up for the SSR while demand for a new Camaro was much greater then demand for a retro UTE. The GTO needed hood scoops, bright colors and to co-star on a TV show.

    Reply
  41. I was at the unveiling to a large group of Pontiac enthusiasts in 2003 at the Pontiac Oakland Club International convention. The GM Brass played a sound bite of the engine and the crowd went wild. They showed the car and the disappointment was deafening. Having said that, I actually had a friend who bought one and the performance was unbelievable. 143mph and still pulling strong. The Camaro and Challenger clearly demonstrated that retro styling sells.

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  42. It failed because the radio volume knob was on the wrong side of the radio.

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  43. I definitely wouldn’t say “it did as well as a coupe could for those years” because the Nissan 350z and Infiniti G35 (basically the same car) sold a TON of units from 2003-2007.

    Look, I REALLY like those GTO’s but the corporate bosses f’d it all up and killed the brand. Nissan stepped up and delivered a better product. Ford won in the end.

    At least that’s how history will remember it.

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  44. Didn’t need to read 1 word. The car is an Australian Holden Monaro because it was the only rear wheel drive car in production by GM at the time to fit the application. They decided not to apply, wait and get a new chassis approved by the US regulations for a “Challenger” type reboot

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  45. The first year had no hood scoops as they were trying to rush it to the US market & used the EPA certification with the flat hood of the Grand Prix or maybe Grand AM I read back in the day. Hood scoops for year two. First year has a 5.7 & year two a 6.2 (?). Remember Pontiac did try to promote with a commercial before its arrival, guy burning off the tires off in his driveway in a suburban neighborhood. Made me rush to Tupelo, MS dealer that had Pontiac franchise. Then the salesman had to point it out to me as it was parked with the Grand Prix & Grand Am’s and sadly didn’t stick out at all with its bland looks.

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    1. Hood had nothing to do with emissions. Have you ever looked at an 05/06 in person? The scoops are blocked with a rubber insert. There was no “ram air” or cold air possible with it. Air box is in the left front corner of the engine compartment, behind the left headlight.
      The 04 hood with no scoops was because they rushed it to production and basically used the off the shelf Holden hood

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  46. It was very successful for what it was, a performance placeholder in the lineup — think about in 2005, when Pontiac got the details right, it could compete favorably with the BMW M3 of its day. With the LS2 engine and 400HP, it was a screaming deal.

    That said, it was going to take a while to get car enthusiasts to even look at Pontiac — so how could it be surprising sales were slow?

    And unlike BMW, there was no base 3-series to offset a lower production M3-like high-performance model.

    Things did get better with the more appealing 4-door G8, particularly the GXP with the LS3, which vanished with Pontiac’s demise. I was close to buying one, but I managed to snag a Cadillac CTS-V at a good price. And the CTS/CT5 has persisted, thanks to higher volume lesser siblings, fleet sales, etc.

    By the time the G8 was repackaged as the Chevy SS (and it took years for some reason), the LS3 was already obsolete and a throwback to an early 2000s M5 that was interesting for a rapidly shrinking audience.

    The SS also suffered from the original problem of a low-volume car available only in high-performance trim (unlike its competition, the Dodge Charger). So it was doomed from the start to be killed by the bean counters at GM, who seem content to have only one purpose-built performance car in the entire lineup.

    Moral of the story — only high-volume models survive at GM. I predict you’ll be writing about the demise of the crazy $300K Cadillac Celestiq soon, because history has a way of repeating itself at GM…

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  47. Let’s face it. It was ugly. Looked like a flipping Cavalier. I’d have bought one if not for that. Decent power, nice rumble. Just a Cavalier with a couple of hood scoops.

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    1. Cavalier was square and boxy. Didn’t look anything like it. It looked like a 2 door grand am

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  48. It flopped because the bean counters at GM wouldn’t spring for a reskin.

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  49. I think the bigger reason was the price point of the GTO. When they showed up at dealerships, every dealership I went to in California was asking 40k+. They were trying to milk the GTO name for profits and most people couldn’t afford that price for a 2 door “toy”. It also looked very similar to the grand am and Grand Prix of the time which were half of the asking price of the GTO and had 4 doors. It was a small Niche market for them at the time and slow/lack of sales were the main reason it flopped

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  50. Having been an F-Body driver, I can tell you my Yellowjacket M5, 2005 LS2 GTO was miles ahead in ride and build quality. I could sit in those seats all long without fatigue. However, the factory suspension did not do it justice. I replaced it all with Pedder’s ( 1” drop in front) and it changed the handling considerably for the better. I sold it when I moved to the Frozen North, but sure miss the rumble of the LS2 and its monstrous torque.

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  51. When i first saw the magazine ad in 03 for the 04 i knew i had to have one. I eventually bought a 06 6speed. I miss that car more then some dead relatives. Greatest car I’ve ever owned

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  52. I would ‘really question’ this view that the 2004 – 2006 Pontiac GTO was ‘a flop’. Many probably don’t appreciate or understand that GMH in Australia had extremely limited production capacity that was only a fraction of what its parent GM had and still has in the United States.

    GMH, had no difficulty selling every one of these vehicles that rolled off their assembly lines. In Australia GMH dealers had waiting lists for buyers wanting the RHD version badged as a Holden Monaro. The reality is that GMH simply could not build enough to satisfy Australian buyers as well as the export markets that in addition to the USA included the United Kingdom where Vauxhall badging was applied.

    In the end, I don’t believe that GMH really wanted increased production of the export LHD examples. The car itself was built on the omega platform and had conservative but not unattractive lines. In time, people will in time begin to realise just how good this car is. It had an excellent compromise between ride comfort and handling with a simply legendary drive train.

    I would have liked it to have been a pillarless hardtop but apart from that it was and is a pure Pontiac GTO in every other respect. No ‘flop’ here. Everyone built sold with ease.

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  53. Everyone on this “thread” got it right, GM did not. Yes, you could clearly see the 2005 Mustang had classic Mustang lines.

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  54. These sold well when available and certain markets. I remember my buddy at his dealer could only get 2 and had a waiting list. From the beginning I always felt like GM wanted an excuse to close down the Holden plants and farm production to Thailand and China in that region.

    To bad the money wasn’t there, but should’ve brought the entire Holden lineup at once. Just rebadge Holden as Pontiac…. Let’s not forget the 5th Gen Camaro was zeta… based on Aussie RWD that was to be global AWD…. Ended up to heavy of a platform so Sigma to Alpha was where GM put the money. An 04 CTS-V was lighter than a G8 and about the same as a GTO. In hindsight, a GTO based on the CTS Coupe for its second gen could’ve been the answer. The Camaro pairing with the ATS worked pretty well for Gen 6.

    Although I will say my 04 Grand Prix GTP CompG was a good front driver… The peak of the Wbody platform, aluminum front cradle etc separating it from the Impala and Buick side, 3800 Series 3 supercharged a good motor… It was no G8.

    They had a Bonneville with a Northstar, Grand Prix GTP CompG, later GXP with the V8…and the GTO. Sales were picking up despite that lineup. The G8 was what finally turned the corner. That was a loved car, but 08 changed everything. Heck can blame the pandemic on Buick and the Regal dieing… Great cars at bad times forcing a other brand off of general motors in Europe. The execs at the top who apparently thinks of cars more like appliances assimilate everything down and only see Corvette as the sports car. Heck they’re behind on competing Ramcharger and they had the perfect car for this transitioning market, the Volt… Killed off. Factor in a heavy reliance on China and it’s sad to see where it’s come from that era.

    It’s a repeating theme and seems like they fire anyone who learned a lesson only to let it all repeat.

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  55. It bombed because it looks like a Cavalier!!

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    1. Cavalier looks like the newer lumina and impala.

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  56. Loved my 04 and still miss it. I understand the critics but I liked the bland styling. Made it a true sleeper car. People didn’t expect that power by just looking at it. The LS aftermarket is excellent and those cars could be made to really surprise some people.

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  57. Even though I’m a young guy (born in 1971), my uncle’s GTO’s always hald special memories in my heart. Whenever the car was mentioned, or seen, it evoked emotion. And this is what a foreign car company from Australia could not understand. Not to mention that GM is too Chevy focused. Why did the car have to have an LS motor? GM has always treated Pontiac like the stepchild of all it’s brands. When you talk about Super Duties, Tri Power, and Royal Bobcat performance packages, that’s REAL GTO! Not HOLDEN! And let’s be honest, the styling was just horrible. It was pure disrespect to a legend. The styling was so bad that it didn’t matter what type of engine the car had. The styling didn’t have that “GTO” spirit! Any young person who had been told about, or had seen the older GTO’s had bo choice but to be disappointed in the Holden model. Maybe GM didn’t have the money to do it right, well they should’ve let the legend rest. But to disrespect the Pontiac GTO like they did was unforgiveable.

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    1. What engine would you suggest?

      See the problem was the Pontiac made serious drivers coupe when what most boomers wanted was a wanga-danga mobile they could store in the garage, take to cruise in’s and set next to in their lawn chairs and New Balances with their time out dolls……

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      1. Ok, I laughed hysterically at that. I actually don’t think you are wrong, either.

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