Senator Joe Manchin called into question the need for an expanded electric vehicle tax credit during a Senate budget hearing on Thursday, arguing this portion of the federal budget would be better spent on developing hydrogen solutions for heavy transportation sectors.
Manchin, a West Virginia Democrat, questioned whether or not the tax credits were necessary given the current demand for EVs and the production backlog many automotive manufacturers are currently facing.
“There’s a waiting list for EVs right now with the fuel price at $4. But they still want us to throw $5,000 or $7,000 or $12,000 credit to buy electric vehicles,” Manchin said, as quoted by Reuters. “It makes no sense to me whatsoever. When we can’t produce enough product for the people that want it and we’re still going to pay them to take it – it’s absolutely ludicrous in my mind.”
The Senate Finance Committee last year proposed a $259.5 billion clean energy tax credit package, which included $31.6 billion in consumer incentives for electric vehicles. Under this proposed system, EV buyers would qualify for as much as $12,500 in tax credits if the car is assembled in the United States by a unionized workforce. The bill indicated the credits would expire once battery-electric or fuel cell vehicles achieve 50 percent market share in the U.S.
The proposed package would also make vehicles from companies like GM and Tesla, both of which have passed the 200,000 unit threshold, to once again qualify for federal tax breaks.
Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, who testified at Thursday’s hearing, defended the Biden Administration’s proposed EV tax credits, saying the White House feels “an enormous sense of urgency to accelerate not the just the uptake of electric vehicles, but as you note, their production and our productive capacity for them.” EV tax credits are intended to drive demand for battery-electric vehicles, as the relative purchase price remains high compared to an equivalent internal combustion engine product.
Companies like GM and Ford have seemingly had little trouble generating demand for their electric vehicle offerings thus far. GM, for its part, has raised its production targets for both the GMC Hummer EV Pickup and the Cadillac Lyriq, and has also received more than 140,000 pre-orders for the Chevy Silverado EV in only a few short months.
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Comments
He is right buy ab EV,flip it for a profit and get government money on top of it?
You’re not getting government money, you’re getting TAXPAYER money
Just like when I get on line at the grocery store behind someone that has a cart full of junk, food, candy, soda, ice cream, etc. and they pull out their EBT card to pay for the whole bill, but the person is holding a brand new $1k cell phone, expensive pair of shoes, then pushes the cart out to the new BMW or Escalade…all while I am thinking to myself, I just paid for their groceries and I didn’t even get a thank you!
Dan
You Republicans have some weird fantasies. Ronald Reagan fantasized about a lady in Indiana. picking up her welfare check in a brand new Cadillac. Every media outlet in the country tried tracking her down. Only to find out Ronald was full of shy!
1st, I am a conservative. 2nd this happens all the time! My own daughter worked in a grocery store for 2 years, saw it all the time as well! Welfare is a pile of shit! It was supposed to be for disabled people or people that really needed a hand, temporarily!
Time to realize that J Manchin is a Republican mole!
That’s not a bad thing either.. it’s better for him to have common sense than most of his party who are running our country to the ground.
Travis
Really?You preferred the Present who completely ignored the pandemic, and told us to shove a blue light in our butts.
More covid deaths on joes hands then the previous administration so yes Peter I agree joe has completely ignored covid. He once said in 2020 anyone who has that many deaths on their hands is unfit to be president, with him having more I take it that applies to him to.
This will all be gone by Easter….DJT March 2020
With this many covid deaths on his hands he is unfit to be president the racist joe Biden 2020. 2021 far exceeds the death count.
After the attack on the Capital. Anyone who still supports Trump is unfit to breath
Get your money up travel little boy go outside America & learn what a real attack is punk.
Koumbaro
That’s a common greeting around the Mediterranean. Technically it means brother-in-law, In practice a better translation would be: I think of you like family because I’m Fking your sister.
That ain’t what it means in the states big boy. If you took that as friendly then I suggest you google it, you’re on the internet now so look it up.
It’s a passive aggressive greeting. Much like something you say to your moms new boyfriend. When you meet him at the breakfast table.
Again not in the states. I can care less where you are from, trust me it’s no sign or respect. Here’s a good way to put it, if we were face to face & I spit in your face that’s what it means here.
Dick
You must not like your teeth. In Canada, their called summer teeth (summer here, summer there)
BTW Your little hick town doesn’t represent the real America.
When did NYC become a hick town? Also Peter you don’t need to change your name to run your mouth on here. I told you what’s up & what it means as far as not liking my teeth boy I would smack you around like a female then go in your pockets & rob you.
Jake
Sounds like you haven’t been outside since the towers came down. Do you even know what Falafel is?
Also I like the new name. You won’t steal this one.
I am you don’t you remember you little weasel.
Fake news. Don’t spread it!
I could care less if he is democrat or republican, he is showing more common sense than anyone else in his current party!
I want to see the existing EV credits continue but he’s kinda got a good point that the US public is going in that direction without any credits.
His points on Hydrogen, especially for passenger cars, are just dumb though. It makes it sound as if he’s getting paid by Toyota. I will say though that Hydrogen does make more sense for heavy trucking. There would be a lot less infrastructure required and semi’s don’t usually sit so long that you have to worry about their fuel boiling off. The only other downside to Hydrogen is that the vast majority of it comes from Natural Gas. It’ll be a long time before NG is supplanted by electrolysis.
Please try keeping up with new technology that has Hydrogen being separated from common water by a Catalytic process that takes very little Electricity to accomplish it. Hydrogen, not scarce Lithium/batteries/electric that the grid cannot support, is the actual fuel of the future.
Old saying, “Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be”.
Let alone the fact that these batteries are not currently recyclable at this point.
I agree with you that hydrogen is preferable to EVs, however, the technology that I am familiar with (not using natural gas, only electricity) requires 39 kw/hrs of electricity to produce 1 kg of hydrogen in theory and about 52 kw/hr per kg of hydrogen in actual production. With electricity at about $.125 per kw/hr this puts the electricity cost alone at about $6.25 per kg of hydrogen (good for about 75 miles). If we used the 50 kw/hr in a BEV in could travel roughly 150 miles. Not trying to be argumentative, but could you explain this catalytic process?
I have replied to your polite inquiry with two links to scholarly and scientific articles about catalytic Hydrogen separation technology. This site is stating the reply, which contains good information and a logical question, is “under moderation” for some unknown reason so we’ll see if it gets past the censors.
Thank you, the links did not come thru, could you resend please?
I copied and pasted the links again, and once again, this site has put a message ” your comment is under moderation” on my reply, again, for some unknown and unneccessary reason. If this one doesn’t come through, just Google ” Catalytic Hydrogen Production” and you will get several results.
I did your Google suggestion and found several articles, most of which were very technical and suggested that most of the technology is in the research phase. I did find an article (Hydrogen production from water / past and present – ScienceDirect.pdf) which gave a good overview of all the technologies and had a specific section on page 9 called “Electrocatalytic Water Splitting”. An excerpt from this section is below:
“Electrocatalytic water splitting is the most mature technology for making hydrogen from water with many commercial systems available for small and large-scale applications. With respect to making hydrogen from renewable, electro-catalysis is attractive because electricity can be generated from photovoltaic cells. At present, this system offers probably the least expensive method for making hydrogen with an estimated cost of hydrogen between $1.5 and $2/kgH2 if electricity is provided at a cost of $0.02/kWh, which is three to four times lower than the present cost [20]. ” To your point, the process is feasible, however, the $.02/kWh cost for electricity is far below the national average of about $.125/kWh. If we use the national average cost for electricity then the cost per kg of hydrogen would be $9 – $12 in this process.
Credits should not be given, if it’s actually so great for us and the world, then it will become reality fast enough on its own. Instead, current administration is trying to force upon us through all there likely illegal mandates.
Sgt. Beavis
Toyota has an engine/transmission plant in West Virginia. So yes, Joe Manchin is owned by Toyota.
There should be an end date for the incentives, because we’re now supporting the companies that dragged their feet on EVs. It seems like eliminating gas subsidies (estimated at $20.5 billion per year, including $14.7 billion from federal subsidies and $5.8 billion from state subsidies, according to a 2017 study) would be a better place to start, though. One reason for people to switch to alternative fuel vehicles is the price of gas. If it stays predictably high, people will continue to reduce their use and automakers will have consistent demand for EVs. I also really like the idea of limiting the incentives to vehicles built in the U.S. That not only helps reduce our dependence on oil, it encourages companies to build new plants here and hire more U.S. workers.
Totally agree. Bought my Bolt with no government help (on my end anyway) new for 22k out the door. And people seem to be buying the hummer EV and reserving the Silverado EV without a subsidy. Let the market take over.
What that idiot doesn’t understand because he’s bought off to the tune of 500K per year from the Fossil Industry is that it is placing GM and some other Legacy Automakers in a big disadvantage to startups like Rivian and Lucid amongst others. And more specifically when Chinese Automakers hit our shores. As a GM fan this scares me and it should upset everyone here!!!
Tesla doesn’t need Rebates as they have solidified the Apple position in the Auto Industry as I have stated for years now.
I can see it now, Ford and GM get zero Rebates and the Chinese Automakers which will be selling their cars at a lower price point will also on top of it get $7500 rebates on their vehicles. What a complete and utter moron. But he has at least $500,000 worth of reasons not to care every single year!!!
Aww poor legacy automakers we should give them free money to help with the issues they have.
If you can afford a Hummer or large EV in that price segment, you don’t need a subsidy. Nine-thousand pound beast wreaking havoc on road surfaces. They should to pay their ‘fair share’ for road maintenance like Brandon always says.
@No EV
Well if you actually read the proposal you would see that the Hummer is too expensive and would not qualify.
True, but it still illustrates that people are buying them without subsidies.
You can’t even compare the damage done by a 9000# vehicle to the damage done by a big rig weighing in at 80,000#. Just the front axle alone can weigh 20,000#. Check out a pavement design manual to see what really affects pavement thickness and life.
@John
So you would rather our Government give out $7500 to each Chinese BEV Vehicle sold in the USA than to help our American Auto sector?
Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
They should all go away. Proposal also states that the “Chinese” EV would still get 7.5k. Extras if made in USA and union but like other commenters said the auto manufacturers will jack up the price knowing you will get a rebate/credit.
Actually GM has lowered the price of the Bolt by $5500 for 2022. I have one on order, replacing my Volt with a pure EV. No shortage of reservations for the E Silverado, the Hummer and the Cadillac. Tesla hasnt had a rebate for quite some time. Toyota will lose their credit soon. Also many of us do not qualify for the tax credit anyway. You have to have $7500 in Tax liability to get the entire credit Many folks don’t understand that
Do I hear crying from you? Because it sure sounds like it.
And the legacy automakers can go out of business.
Like Packard and Studebaker.
I would not bet on the long term success of either Lucid or Rivian.
The tax credits mean you over pay for the vehicle by the amount of the tax credit at the point of sale. The automakers know this so they increase the MSRP by the same amount. There is no discount. Pull the tax credits away and watch the price of the vehicle drop by the exact amount.
The automakers are the one’s who benefit from the credit because you finance the difference over the period of the vehicle, unless of course you apply the credit (if you get a tax refund equal to the credit) afterwards. The automakers get the higher revenue at the time of the sale, accounting for tens to hundreds of millions of extra dollars.
NO rebates. NO government hand outs. Buy your own vehicle. No one is handing me money to buy a V8.
Enough with the damn rebates! Government needs to stay out of the way, stop making companies build electric junk vehicles, nobody wants them!
I agree yet the EVs are set to have an influx of capacity in 2 years. If gas is $2.75 a gallon in 2 years and the EV capacity is there, they will need the incentives. If they pull the EV credits now, automakers may lower the capacity due to knowing the demand will be lower.
Perhaps it just needs to be better scaled. 10k off A 40k EV, but only 5k on a 50k.
Incentives manufactures to not try to upsell to the moon too.
This makes no sense. If gas is 2.72$ in 2 years, and nobody wants EV’s why in the world are we subsidizing things people don’t want???? Current EV planned production is 1% of ICE production, so the demand is in all honesty, abysmal during a time where EV’s should shine.
Sounds like the real problem is EV’s aren’t a good product, not that the government is telling you what to do and what to think, though as far as the freedom of thought is concerned, all that government money that went to create Tesla is really coming back to roost as Musk takes over twitter and will finally stop supressing all the build back better nonsense
The reason there are waiting lists is because of the federal $7500 rebate. Which came first the chicken or the egg?
You Can no longer get the tax rebate with a GM EV. They hit the 200,000 sold mark in Dec 2018.
You Can no longer get the tax rebate with a GM EV. They hit the 200,000 sold mark in Dec 2018.
Joe Manchin’s views on Federal incentives for EV purchases is about what might be expected from one who drives a Maserati (or is that just a rumor?).
Surprised he doesn’t want rebates for coal powered vehicles.
Aren’t the EV rebates being phased out anyhow? By time congress gets anything done to end rebates, the’ll br gone!
Unfortunately, I have to side with Manchin. Giving the trucking industry fuel options to get supplies delivered provides transportation options to get goods to the shelf. On the political side, maybe the WH doesn’t see hydrogen as a future option in their green EV steal plan. But, if these potential hydrogen manufactures are union, Biden will give them hundreds of millions in subsidies if hydrogen “could” be part of the green steal deal. Main point, he doesn’t care as long as they are union for votes and not promoting fossil fuel.
Unfortunately for the GREEN believers, there will most likely always be a need for fossil fuel to make the stuff needed for their so called green vehicles. What is even more concerning, is they want to make our GREAT MILITARY all electric if they can get by with it.
I don’t have problem with most alternative energy vehicles, but disagree with offering incentives or any kind of government funding to help them get started or help encourage people to purchase. It’s still the tax payers paying for something that is basically being mandated at this point. It’s just another way that freedom of choice is being taken away and the vast majority of AMERICANS can’t afford these vehicles, let alone the fact they are using tax dollars to pave the way for the EV infrastructure.
Mr. M simply target it then to those making lower income say 100k for singles and 150k for family of 4 because it ant the average family buying those booked up orders that exist for the most part buying the now what $75k plus truck first pass thorugh. OR REMOVE ALL the tax breaks for big oil too including the pipleine servicers not just drillers. Then I am ok.
The prices for Cobalt, Lithium and nickel are soaring. All the manufacturers agree that the cost of batteries need to come down for EV adoption to take off. I am sure GM is aware of this as they just did a deal with Glencore, the swiss mining company. My advice to Mary Bara is don’t lay off all those ICE engineers yet!
I guess I am the SOLE Republican and Conservative here.
I am in favor of tax credits since they are TAX DECREASES and therefore, the year that I buy a car is the year that the Gov’T only robs me HALF-BLIND.
Thanks to Senator Machine, he’s put the brakes on the dementia ridden, lying do nothing “resident ” in the white houses agenda which is destroying our once great country. Biden wouldn’t know the truth if it hit him in his face. He’s never had a real job, just milking the public his whole career while accomplishing nothing. Lying about his law school grades, pretending not to know anything about his drug addict son and his nefarious business dealings. To quote Dumbo ears ” don’t underestimate Joe’s ability to “f ” things up. The only time Obama was right. #FJB ” let’s go Brandon”