Unlike Ford, GM Won’t Split Up ICE And EV Operations
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GM has elected to keep its internal combustion engine and electric vehicle operations together instead of splitting them into separate entities.
This news comes a week after GM’s crosstown rival, Ford, announced its plans to divide its operations between Ford Blue and Ford Model e. Ford Blue represents the American automaker’s arm of ICE-focused endeavors, while Ford Model e is dedicated to electric vehicle affairs. Ford hopes to become more competitive as a result of this decision.
According to a report by the Detroit Free Press, Tim Grewe, director of GM’s electrification strategy, says that the automaker simply does not see a need to follow suit and separate its ICE operations from that of its EVs. “We’re not feeling any disadvantage to keeping them common,” he said.
Grewe said GM’s development of two proprietary systems for its EVs – Ultium battery technology and the Ultifi software connectivity system – make it simple to keep ICE and EV operations together. “Because of this fundamental building block approach and the ability to say we have this data farm in Ultifi, we’ve made investments in the infrastructure and technology to say we’re keeping [EV and ICE] together,” Grewe said. “We’re benefitting from that.”
Grewe brought up the GMC Hummer EV Pickup as an example of how keeping the two propulsion systems common can actually be beneficial. When GM engineers working on the Hummer EV discover something innovative, it makes its way to the Ultifi data farm, and can then be applied directly to ICE-powered vehicles under GM’s umbrella.
“Having that capability to run the same across our entire business, from a technical point of view, is enabling,” Grewe said. “We don’t see it at as a problem. We’re able to accelerate our schedules. We’ve redefined our process so we can develop a vehicle in half the time, when it’s an EV.”
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Very misleading.
GM is opening up joint ventures or GM subsystem plants for EV manufacturing. When the ICE plants close current GM hourly workers cannot work there.
This is happening now in Lordstown with the new Ultium battery plant. Traditional workers from the closed Lordstown car plant cannot work there.
So basically GM is doing the same thing as Ford but using a different plan.
Lordstown isn’t a good example. It went from a traditional car manufacturing plant to a brand new battery cell facility which is highly automated and is basically a large clean room. Detroit Hamtramck to Factory Zero uses a lot of the same skills. Same with SpringHill and Orion.
gm should have split up ICE and Lectric so when they file for bankruptcy due to millions of defective batteries they won’t go out of business.
Not yet anyways. But just wait until the EV’s start bleeding money. Just count the number of operations that were spun off over the years when times got tough.
Easier to bury EV costs shadowed by ridiculous gas trucks and SUVs prices/profits
The profits from big truck & SUV sales will crater now that gas is back over $4 gal 🙁
OU fan?
The process of producing the batteries for EVs releases many more emissions than the process of producing normal automobiles, also the batteries can’t be recycled.
I’m not a pro-EV pusher, but you’re wrong on both accounts. If you’re getting you information from people against EVs it’s going to be BS. Need to fact check yourself.
Your kind of close about the battery emissions, but even if the case for certain cells, it doesn’t take much once that vehicle is on the road to offset any impact during the manufacturing process.
Best to educate yourself before opening your mouth, especially on popular topics where it doesn’t take much for someone to counter.
The ‘fact’ about recycling is utter BS. And just because the cells may be degraded for vehicle duty, they can be very very easily repurposed for other needs and used for a long long time before they ever need to go to a recycling facility.
The best part is we get to tear up the mountains looking for the rare earth material. We don’t need mountains anyways. gm needs to be smart and move all manufacturing to china to maximize profits
I disagree. The best part is where the costs of EV’s double where the costs of ICE stays fairly constant and ICE gets more efficient. Considering EV’s require tons of nickel, silver and copper, all rare earth metals that require extensive electricity to melt and refine, and diesel to extract, rising fuel costs are going to kneecap them real soon. Rivian has already raised the price of their trucks by 12k…. And they’re still forecasted to be in the red this year.
Also, all that magic electricity that comes out of the wall…. Is powered 95% by fossil fuels. Back in 2019, hydro accounted for 3% of the grid, and all others combined accounted for 2%. In 2020, when manufacturing was shut down the DOE took advantage of the drop in load to point out “look! Renewables were almost 20% our load!” Completely neglecting that as factories come back online the load will have to switch back.
This is all false information.
Cost of EV is declining as the development cost of ICE is now at all time high levels.
The cost of Batteries have declined from $1400 KwH to below $100 KwH since 2015
Many of the metals you describe here are also used in ICE too.
Add in the extra cost of all the electronics for the ICE vehicles it is all the same materials. The trouble is we have to keep adding content to the ICE to meet the numbers required.
Rivian struggles like most start up companies with no scale. They have nothing else to fall back on and have to pass on all the cost. They also buy so little of materials they have no savings.
As for saving the environment this is all about making money or spreading out money in the global market. That is the true hidden costs to us here. The Globalization people are calling the shots.
Hey it is ok to hate EV cars if you like. But at least do so with true honest facts or your creditability is gone. Even if you hate it just for personal reasons that is ok just don’t lie.
Liar nothing you said is true.
Put up or shut up.
https://insideevs.com/news/552010/electric-car-battery-prices-dropping/
Add to this the added cost of lighter materials used, Complexed systems to meet emission and added components to build a turbo 3 cylinder in a Chevy is much more expensive than it was to build a full size V8 truck just two decades ago. These cost continue to rise and had the average vehicle cost just over $40K before the Chip deal.
Yet EV cars while still more today are on the decline and expect to be at $36 KWH on the batteries by 2030
I am not a EV fan either but I am not going to lie to make my point.
You sir are FAKE NEWS now sit down.
He is backing up his statements and providing sources. You are just pulling stuff out of your ass.
I’m not speaking to you.
Nothing more needed to add to this.
Wow only 8 more years 🙄
It’s not about hating anything. It’s about people who scream I’m doing my part I’m saving the environment but facts are you aren’t. If you are tearing the landscape up then you should keep your mouth shut about saving anything.
Fracking for oil isn’t tearing up the landscape?
It matters little what they say as they have no call in this. They are only the fools if they believe it or the liars that are spreading the lies.
It is all about money. income redistribution and people making profits off of green industries.
The automakers are not fighting anymore as they can see they can make more money on EV vs ICE in the long run. Also their stock will reflect more tech vs just old time MFG. Again it is about money.
Incorrect. Cost of all things are going up. But EV’s are going up faster (materials, yes as battery R&D is coming down a little, but not as much as materials will go up at these rates)
Couple facts,
This week rivian increased prices $12000 across the board
Also this week, nickel is up 60%
Also this week, copper at close to all time high, might surpass that by this time next week.
Cars are mostly aluminum and steel. All metals that are readily available. These will go up 20-30%, but not the 60-200% we are seeing for rare earth metals.
Something nobody seams to understand,
Batteries are only a fraction of EV costs. Teslas cost 80-120k for most models and that’s with only 20-30k in batteries. So where is the rest? The body is only another 10K, the rest is in drives and 20-40K is in the motors and transaxle depending on if you get a 2 or 3 motor Tesla. Tesla also has a minimum profit on their vehicles and as they use the same battery for most vehicles, even the low range ones, their “budget” cars are sold at a loss. That’s why the only year they’ve been in the black is 2020, when they sold preorders and maintenance schedules, but produced minimum cars.
The grid is still only 5 % renewables. That’s a verified number from 2019 when the economy was “normal.” There’s no way you can convince me that in a 2 year time period where we had nonstop supply chain and labor shortages that we managed to increase our renewable energy sources tenfold over the last 20 years of what was actually normal production. Any stat that is claiming it’s greater than 5% is playing some serious games, which in effect is more or less lying.
The main difference in cost is the battery and that is what is keeping the EV more expensive right now.
But the battery cost are dropping and the their efficiency it getting better.
The rest of the car is made of the same materials as any other car. ICE is using a lot of aluminum, magnesium, high cost Boron Steel.
But then the EV lack all the cooling system, engine and turbo system. Also no fuel system rear end and transmission.
just the aluminum in the drive line alone would make most of the body panels.
EV’s also have 5000lbs of copper coils. IDK if you’ve ever been into purchasing for a manufacturing plant, but eletric motors, the size used in most EV’s cost 10K a pop, and these things have 2-3, sometimes 4 of these.
Also, ICE is simpler when it comes to accessories. Brake booster, AC, heater, all driven by the engine. EV’s have to have a separate heating coil, and AC compressor and motor, and still require radiators for the AC and on many EV’s battery and transaxle cooling. EV’s are way more complex. That’s why Tesla is still in the red year after year as a luxury car MFG, while companies like ford and GM are selling vehicles for half the price and ridiculous profits. Tesla hasn’t even had many class action suits to face yet!
Sorry, but I’m an engineer, and everything needs to be justified by numbers. Even Elon Musk isn’t an engineer (his degree is physics) and the financial performance of his companies are showing it.
5000 pounds of copper?
Most Tesla cars are not even 5000 pounds and most EV batteries have little to no copper.
If you are an engineer it must be Lionel.
All these EV trucks are weighing in at 8-9000 lbs, Tesla model S and X both weight just under/over 6000. So 5000lbs in motors is a line down the middle.
I’m neglecting the bolt purposefully as it can be better in all aspects by a focus RS in speed, range, cargo, price, total cost of ownership, and even carbon emissions considering grid composition.
“EV lack all the cooling system”
Really?
Sure about that?
I’m positive about that for the bolt.
ERRRR-wrong
The Bolt’s battery uses “nickel-rich lithium-ion” chemistry, allowing the cells to run at higher temperatures than those in GM’s previous electric vehicles, allowing a simpler and cheaper liquid cooling system for the 60 kWh (220 MJ) battery pack.
Liquid cooling system, it has a reservoir and everything.
They have a smaller system to cool the battery but not as large as a ICE car.
Note no large radiators.
It is to keep the battery at a consistent temp warm or cold.
They have several radiators and or heat exchangers, a Telsas cooling system carries between 17-19 LITERS of coolant, an ICE car by comparison holds on average, 5-7 liters of coolant.
Logan:
A lot of materials that cannot be recycled are buried or sunk in the oceans. Windfarm materials are buried in excavated sites. I do know that battery materials are recycled. There are several car battery recycling operations in New Jersey and a couple planned for Nevada. Nevada and Utah are sites for toxic materials processing and containment. In fact the Nevada Test Site the size of Rhode Island has been set aside in perpetuity for nuclear waste.
I do know that EV car battery trays are very expensive. The individual batteries in the trays are connected negative to negative, positive to positive. When their is a short in any of these like connections it is a tremendous hunt and search to find the fault.
Batteries can be recycled, and are currently being recycled. They have a use for other applications after their life in a vehicle is over, and then after that, the materials are extracted to make new batteries.
Look to create separate divisions and companies like this cost money, a lot of money.
GM learned with Saturn and Hummer that running them separately was very expensive and even more costly to change or close down.
There really is no added cost to just treating EV models as regular production models as you can sell them the same, change them if needed or discontinue them with no real effect on dealers and other parts of the divisions.
Lutz said years ago that one of his greatest errors was not to make Hummer a GMC model. The cost of buying out dealers was crazy.
Ford is going this way to try to drive up investment in the division with out the issue and debts they have with the present brand. They still hold a great deal of debts under the Ford brand and this is what has held back their stock.
No one is hiding anything as this is all clear and out in the public domain.
Like it or not outside of global war changing things EV is going to be part of the future like it or not. If a automaker wants to survive they will need a EV program of some kind to compete.
This is being forced on the customer and MFG alike.
The correct initials are ICEV and EV. There are also HEV and PHEV.
They already gutted and moved the traditional Powertrain division, so what’s the difference?
Yea, still cars, share a lot of common things, why split, gonna just cost more
I think it’s a wise move at least for now.
Imagining working on the ICE side while being told all the resources will be poured into EV division eventually. All of my friends in Ford ICE are desperately looking for a new position.
If you are hell bent and totally going ” all in ” on electrics makes sense to keep the plate full of one item and don’t mix anything with it.
The war in Europe will be a stimulus to EV’s. Who knows what this huge mess will bring. However I think hybrids will be the final answer versus a big heavy battery tray that needs constant recharging with expensive kwh charges, and will be very expensive to replace. We certainly don’t want throw-a-way giant battery trays or vehicles.
These fuel prices are going to tank full size pickup and SUV sales. It seems that we go from one mega crisis to the next now. Oil stocks are booming.
People don’t realize the war in Europe is far from over. Depending on what else goes down it might spread farther then what it is now. I read an article a few days ago that some big hedge fund guy said he believes ww3 has already begun. People need to pay attention to china they are heavily allied with russia and if this thing spreads they will come to their aid.
War in Europe won’t stimulate EV’s as nobody has the money to buy these. If anything they’ll stimulate sedan sales. I saw a forum just yesterday with a couple people trying to find a new Chevy Malibu. People already cracked the EV affordability secret. As gas goes up so will electrical bills. People are also scared of rolling blackouts….. which will be more prevalent in a wartime. EV’s are on the verge of their death. Zealots are dropping off and skeptics are growing
A survey last month by car gurus said it all. When asked if by 2033 ( you know after the ICE engine ban buy 3 years) when respondents were asked if they think they’ll be driving an EV, over half responded no. Aka, Over half of respondents (and car gurus is used mostly by gen Z and millennials) believe that the 2030 deadline is a load of BS. The EV narrative is fragmenting royally.
Logan:
A lot of materials that cannot be recycled are buried or sunk in the oceans. Windfarm materials are buried in excavated sites. I do know the battery materials are recycled. There are several car battery recycling operations in New Jersey and a couple planned for Nevada. Nevada and Utah are sites for toxic materials processing and containment. In fact the Nevada Test Site the size of Rhode Island has been set aside in perpetuity for nuclear waste.
I do know that EV car battery trays are very expensive. The individual battery in the trays are connected negative to negative, positive to positive. When their is a short in any of these like connections it is a tremendous hunt and search to find the fault.
Mary’s new found best fast friend is Vlad Putin for her all in EV strategy. Both Vlad and Brandon are best marketing tools for EV’s since stellar Superbowl TV commercials. Putin is also the new best fast friend for California Governor Newsome. EV’s forever ???
This really makes no geo political sense what so ever.
C8.R.
Putin and has wacky plans and war with Ukraine has created mega turmoil in the world’s oil market driving prices into the stratosphere and driving pump prices of gasoline and diesel into the finski, five spot or five dollar+ a gallon range. More costly than a gallon of pasteurized milk. This is crazy.. This leads to substitution. Economics 101. Hence EV vehicle consideration.
Brandon and his team who are clueless on applied science and atmospheric contamination are promoting laws and regulations favoring EV’s and the offing of fossil energy.
All this is a symphony to Mary’s ears, since she is all in on EV’s. Now to you get it bro?
You really confuse the motive with the results.
Putin for years long before Mary was even at the top that he was going to reunite Russia. That is what he stated for a long time. This was long before the oil issues too. To be honest he has Europe in a head lock all ready because of their dependence on his oil and he has already become one of the worlds richest men.
But his ego needed to be amended and he never counted on the Ukraine’s fighting back as strong and that his army is not as well prepared as he thought.
He is now in a fix. He backs out his ego takes a hit and if he stays he will probably face attacks in his own country. He also has no place to go as he is now a war criminal.
As for China Putin is just a lacky and with as badly as things have gone they will sit back and keep at arms length.
They already are keeping distance from him now. The odds of them bailing him out are not great.
The only wild card now is how much damage will he do and how long till someone stops him. He is dealing with an incompetent American president and VP. So I expect if he moves on Poland or other Nato member Europe will destroy him. To be honest I wager Poland alone would take him out.
Mary is just trying to get GM to where it can meet the numbers in the future and remain very profitable. The numbers in the government are not going to let ICE live and even if they change they will be only till the next election. Then some states like California, NY NJ etc. will continue with their own agenda.
Also if you expect to sell cars globally you will need EV products.
Don’t underestimate the countries that would come to Russia if this gets bigger.
GM is doing the right thing for creating long-term value. Ford is only trying to get a short-term price lift.
The reality is that EVs will be in all GM brands. GM’s designers and product development work across both EVs and ICE.
Most of the activity in building an EV is the same as for an ICE vehicle, they both have a body, seats, electronics, wheels etc. They both need large highly automated factories to build them.
GM will evolve into an EV-only business over the 20 years at a speed driven by market demand/uptake.
Yes many fail to note GM has never set an end date on ICE.
The transition is over time and the new cars are being sold with and not yet replacing any cars.
C8.R
Thank you for your rebuttal argument. Great points. A+
Currently at play is Putin’s ego which is like Hitler’s. Putin like Hitler is all in for territory to strengthen his base. Oil and gas ⛽ are the Supreme and universal commodities for energy and also modern products – plastics, carpets, building materials, wire sheaths, tires, etc.
This European War turmoil like Covid is an inflation driver. Also a wake call about how our world with all it’s resources, wealth, science and greed is heading on a major traumatic adjustment course. In Daniel Yeargin’s book, THE PRIZE, oil and gas has determined the events of world history since whale oil. The internal combustion engine is man’s greatest invention, next to harnessing electricity.
Take the best of both of these worlds and produce hybrid vehicles and machines like Caterpillar is doing gradually starting with their D7 and D11 bulldozers and Deere is doing with their big wheel loader, and what Toyota is doing with their Prius.
The Japanese automakers are playing it cagey. They are watching and waiting for GM to founder on their all in EV objective. When this occurs, Toyota and Nissan, et. al, will release their waiting in the wings hybrid line.
If you are going to sell vehicles globally you have to consider that 70+% of the globe is backward third world. Most of the third world does not have anywhere near the electric plug in infrastructure to support pure electric cars and trucks. EV’s in arctic climates ???
Also to be considered is that the heavy battery tray weights are wearing out tires at around 20K miles.
We are at an extremely interesting turning point in our history. Sadly the climate card has been the Joker card in the deck that the current administration is playing to feather their own nest for political advantage. This has suckered the people most of whom do not know applied science.
Where or where have all the great leaders gone ???
For the comment by Dave 8 more years I sure hope not