One of the most common arguments against the mass adoption of electric vehicles is that between the production process and electricity source, EVs don’t actually reduce emissions compared to a standard internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle. It’s an important issue, especially as major automakers roll out a deluge of fresh electric vehicle models, including GM, which promises to launch 30 new EVs globally by 2025. Now, one study is taking a closer look at that argument.
According to a recent study published by Reuters, electric vehicles do in fact create fewer emissions than an equivalent gasoline-powered vehicle – but only after it’s driven 13,500 miles.
The findings are the result of a data analysis using a model developed by the Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago, which incorporates thousands of parameters to determine the environmental impact of electric vehicle production and operation, including things like the metals used in the battery, as well as the amount of plastic and aluminum used in the body. The Argonne model is one of many tools used by the Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board to help guide vehicle regulations.
According to the principal energy systems analyst at Argonne, Jarod Cory Kelly, EV production creates more carbon than an equivalent ICE-powered vehicle. The “break-even” point is then determined by a variety of factors, including battery size, energy source, and the fuel economy for the equivalent ICE-powered vehicle in question.
Using the Argonne model, Reuters compared a Tesla Model 3 EV to a gas-powered Toyota Corolla. After running the numbers, a 13,500-mile break-even point was determined.
However, the calculations were run using the United States power grid as the energy source, where coal provides an estimated 23 percent of available electricity. If, for example, the Tesla Model 3 was powered up in Norway, where renewable energy prevails, the break-even point arrives much sooner – 8,400 miles, to be exact. Conversely, if the Tesla was recharged in country where the majority of electricity is generated by coal, such as China, the break-even point comes much later – 78,700 miles, per the Reuters calculations.
What’s more, Reuters found that even under a worst-case-scenario wherein electricity is sourced exclusively from a coal-fired powerplant, electric vehicles will, on average, still generate less carbon than an equivalent ICE-powered vehicle, even when accounting for the carbon-intensive production process.
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Comments
Now this is a good article and I’d like to read more of this report. Without reading more, I come out of this article with a few conclusions:
1. To make electric vehicles truly work, we must begin to use even more renewable energy sources such as solar and wind.
2. The article compares an all electric to an all gas. Thus, cars like my Volvo S60 T8 (plug in hybrid), which only gets about 25 miles of range with electric only, would require a LOT more miles to break even. Thus, they are kind of useless. It needs to be either all electric or not.
3. Although not brought up in this article, recycling as much as possible on the electric cars is a must.
What I don’t think many people take into account is the much lower operational costs of the electric with almost no fluids/oils being wasted with routine maintenance. The two years I had my little 2015 Chevy Spark all electric was great with never having any services required in that two years. I am looking forward to the great electric vehicles that will be offered soon.
They don’t take into account the energy needed to create the batteries nor the trashing of batteries at end of life.
Most charging is done at night when most renewable is not online. That is also not taken into account.
Study was slanted to get a specific answer.
When do they become cheaper to drive, about 100,000 miles?
Assuming the battery lasts that long.
Nate: Not for sure if you are commenting from the article only or more about my comment. Anyhow, i will take a stab at your question.
An EV is cheaper to drive the second you roll off the lot. There are variables of course, but let’s assume averages on the price of gas and electricity. Not by much, but the EV is less costly to drive per mile than ICE. Let’s also assume you are comparing two similar priced vehicles like a Bolt (base car) and maybe a fully loaded Equinox. Yes, the Equinox is bigger and probably has more features at the same pricing at the base Bolt. I’m just trying to give a bigger picture of overall costs including the purchase as well as the cost of ownership. So even if the Equinox has the first service covered, after that one it will begin to cost you out of pocket. Most all vehicles today use synthetic oils and the services can run between $80.00 (on the very low side) and up to $300.00 or more if driving an import luxury brand. You don’t have those costs on the Bolt like you would every 5 to 10,000 miles on the Equinox. You also don’t have transmission services that will run over $300. About the only thing a car like the Bolt has is tires (assuming they will go as long as a standard car), brakes (usually replaced less due to one pedal driving), wiper blades and washer fluid.
Sorry that got long. But there are a lot of other savings with an electric other than the gas.
It costs more for an EV by far to begin with though, and with the cost of electricity I bet it takes almost the life of the vehicle to pay for itself.
Although in a lot of places the electric is cheaper than where I live. So it could work out if the battery lasts.
Even my Cruze Diesel with it’s ridiculous Dexos 2 was only about $80 an oil change at the dealer, and that was about twice a year. Not terrible at all.
Nate: Where are you getting your info from to make the comment that “It costs more for an EV by far to begin with though”? Based on what or what are you referring to? I’m not trying to beat you up on this, but just trying to understand. I find that there is a lot of misunderstanding around electric cars and it’s the industry that needs to address that issue.
But from a factual basis, the electric will run a little cheaper at first and then a lot cheaper over time. Again, there are variables that can skew that, hence why I gave an example of two Chevrolet vehicles that are very close in MSRP. So the comment of taking the life of the vehicle to pay for itself is a moot point. That would be a good point if you were comparing two exact vehicles where one was ICE and the other Electric and the electric was 10 grand more. But then we could talk tax credits, etc.
I think if you just keep it simple, the savings is very good in the long run AND there’s a huge reduction in the oils/fluids being used. That can also lead to less landfill items (oil jugs, etc).
Bolt EV starting price $31,000. Chevy Spark, starting price $13,400. If that’s not “far more”, I don’t know what is.
Sam: Next time try comparing cars that are more similar. Your example is just silly.
But I can see that you and Nate are just teaming up. Maybe the two of you can stroll off into the sunset and continue to live in 1987. And Nate, I guess your reading comprehension is not so good. But if I have to go into even more detail for you to comprehend what’s said, its just not worth it.
You seem to be living in a fantasy world of $300 oil changes, EVs that are on cost parity with ICE, and a Bolt that isn’t just an overpriced econobox with terrible range, but is somehow equivalent to an Equinox.
This is a pointless discussion.
So Nate. $300 oil changes are quite common, especially if driving a higher end car (just like a said above). Many of the people buying electric are also higher end buyers. Most people driving a Chevy Cruz diesel are not. You may not be the target group for electrics, but someone driving an Audi A8 with $300 oil changes would be interested in a high end electric with almost zero out of pocket maintenance costs. You know, Google is a wonderful thing:
“The average Audi maintenance cost is between $200 and $300 every 10,000 miles for minor maintenance services, … Cost: A regular oil change for an Audi car runs between $130 and $145.”
Also, if you feel the Bolt has a “terrible” range, then what do you think the average ICE vehicle range is? Here’s a common example. Average fuel tank holds about 15 gallons. The average MPG (let’s say on the Equinox) is about 23 MPG. 15×23 = 345 miles of range. That’s not much above the range on the average electric car. A pointless discussion simply means that you are not hearing what you want to hear.
If someone is spending $200 or more for an oil change they deserve to buy an electric vehicle because they aren’t too bright either. Oil just isn’t that expensive. Someone is getting greased alright but it’s not for the oil product.
Are you being paid to post? Because you post ridiculous arguments. I drive a Mercedes and my oil changes are free. My wife drives an Audi A3 and her oil changes are free. My Camaro 1LE takes upwards of 11 quarts of oil, it’s about $100 for full synthetic. Most dealers give free oil changes when you buy a new car. I only know of one car that requires a $300 oil change and it’s a Lamborghini, and I personally know the owner. It also has several oil drain plugs and takes a couple of hours.
ICE cars are practically full recyclable. I can’t imagine millions of bad battery packs laying around. Or the strain on our terrible power grid with everyone going electric. How are apartment renters going to charge? Low income people? Do they just get left behind so we can virtue signal? Millions of 30amp 240v outlets installed in older homes with 100amp boxes. Who pays for all this? Electric rates will skyrocket… For everyone. Making life even more difficult for low income people.
I will wait around for hydrogen cars. The tech is becoming more viable everyday.
Try taking a physics class, Substandard. Your understanding of materials science and energy conversion is a little…
(wait for it)
Substandard.
Oh! An agruement from authority. How big brained of you! You must be brilliant! Now for my turn. I’m a lead engineer at the Wolf Creek nuclear power station and you’re not. Your understanding of our power grid and supply is.
(Wait for it)
Substandard.
Oh, I also have a PhD from K State. You know.. one of the colleges with a nuclear reactor..
Makes sense that someone whose job involves maintaining a gigantic entropy-spewing heat engine would be a bigger fan of hydrogen or gasoline than lithium 🙂
All jokes aside, keep up the good work.
Moderation????
they are using as a comparison a gas powered corolla gets 30mpg combined.
how about comparing EVs to a hybrid corolla that gets 52mpg combined?
The regular maintenance on any late model ICE vehicle is very low. Simple oil changes every few months, air filter change (which are cheap BTW) once a year, coolant flush every 3 years, and let’s throw a tranny flush/drain refill once every 50,000 miles to me isn’t much of an expense over the life of the vehicle vs an EV.
Because at any given moment, one of those batteries could give out or something expensive electrically, and cost a fortune to replace. Say if one battery pack died within a 5 year period, and it cost $5,000 to replace that battery pack, I bet even with all the regular maintenance done to an ICE vehicle within that same time frame, the overall cost would still be thousands of dollars less than what the total cost of one replacement battery cost you. Thus, literally wiping out all the savings and reasoning why one purchased an EV in the first place was to eliminate maintenance cost of an ICE, but in turn winded up costing the EV owner more money to own the car at the end of the day, vs an ICE vehicle.
Most modern car and truck engines can go hundreds of thousands of miles without much fuss, and rarely do they break down or blow up on the side of the road. On the other hand as more EV’s become more common we truly don’t know how well they’re going to hold up over time in extreme weather conditions or just in general especially when larger ones start coming out.
Also if one honestly believes that they are going to save more money by buying an EV and charging it at home is foolish. Because in the coming years utility companies will have to raise rates on the homeowners and EV charging stations as the demand will become higher and higher therefore prices will rise astronomically.
It will be a supply an demand problem, and the power companies in the US will eventually become one of if not the most powerful entities in the country if EV’s do take off in popularity. Gas prices will eventually drop since demand will wither away which will be great for ICE vehicle owners. Then the possibility of blackouts and telling people to cut back on their power use because the power company isn’t sure how the grid or the operating system will hold up with such high demand.
Until they can build an EV that can fully charge in 5-10 mins that can go 300+ miles and it only will cost me a few bucks, i will be all in the EV movement, but I don’t ever see that happening and I honestly don’t believe that the government nor do the utility companies truly want to make EV’s cheap to own if there isn’t any money to be made from the public.
Mr Cadillac: I’ll try to keep this short and address each of your paragraphs.
P.1: Those services do add up to a lot over 100K. But the bigger point is that you are not taking into account the amount of waste oil/fluids and filters going where?
P.2: You are going on a lot of hypotheticals here. There is actually a lot of test and real world miles on electric cars going back as far as the late 80’s and early 90’s. Plus, the costs is coming down greatly now and will continue as more electric cars come out. They are now also able to replace only a “bad” part of the battery in some cases.
P.3: Again, I’d suggest Googling history on electric cars and how many miles have been put on them.
P.4: Stability in electric has been a little better than the instability in the gas markets. They both have issues and if you think gas prices will come down, you are wrong. With less demand, they will produce less to keep prices up.
P.5: See response above.
P.6: There are electric vehicles now that can charge to about 80% in about 20 minutes. The ranges are increasing. But ask yourself this: How often to you jump in your ICE vehicle and drive more than 200 miles? Almost nobody does that.
Overall, you make some great points and I think you are expressing the same thoughts that most Americans do. But that doesn’t make what you are saying correct. It just means that the industry must do a better job at educating the buyers before pushing for all electric. Personally, I’ve had one all electric and loved it. I currently own one ICE and one ICE/Hybrid/Electric and can see both sides of the debate. I certainly want to see them continue to improve the ICE and reduce waste. But the future is certainly in electric.
Mr. Cadillac:
You are just another guy who likes to Find Fault. If you don’t like Electric Vehicles, Plug-in Hybrids or Hybrids and want to drive 100% internal combustion engines (ICE’s) forever – that is perfectly fine.
Todays 100% gasoline vehicles are so much cleaner than they used to be decades ago, that there isn’t much point in splitting hairs about their relative cleanliness. Can’t say the same about VW’s ‘Clean Diesels’, when many Children in London and Paris ended up with asthma after breathing all those particulates.
Of course defining Carbon Dioxide as ‘Carbon’ is actually much less accurate than calling plain water Hydrogen or Oxygen.
It is much more accurate to call Carbon Dioxide ‘OXYGEN’ – since that is what you get after the sun shines on plant life. And starving the Amazon Rain Forest – ‘the planet’s lungs’ – of plant food, is a bad idea.
Besides that prologue, I’ve just purchased my 7th plug-in, a 2022 Bolt EUV (a totally battery-electric vehicle), and I’m very satisfied, as used car prices are extremely high, and therefore even with taxes and fees I only paid $20,031.
The car’s appointments and size are much better than the 2017 Bolt EV it replaced.
For those who care about ‘Green House Gasses’, they need not worry about the typical overnight charging – which is the way 4 parts out of 5 parts of electricity currently goes into electrified vehicles. The marginal efficiency improvement (and amazingly for the uninitiated, Vast improvement in Central Station Lifetimes) of additional electrical car loads causes very little actual additional CO2 release.
But since water is by far the most significant ‘greenhouse gas’ (at least 91% of the effect) – you guys tell me how we DRAIN the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, and then get back to me.
Mr. Cadillac:
IF my battery dies at 5 years I call up the dealer, they tow the car to the dealership and give me a free loaner. And I get a new battery (provided it is within 8 years and 100,000 miles – which is the typical warranty for a battery electric vehicle). My 2017 Bolt EV at 67,000 miles which I just traded in was just ‘tested’ during the recall – showing no worrysome cell discrepancies (up to 3.4 volts per module difference was allowed, but they supposedly measured ZERO difference) – and I noticed negligible cell degradation..
If I were a GM 100% ICE driver, I’d be worried about the GM automatic transmission falling out of the car at 104,000 miles, which has happened to more than one friend.
One commenter here at GM Authority has complained about valve-jobs needed on their obviously crappy v-8 engines (no comparison to the fine V-8’s GM USED TO make) at 10,000 miles. Another thing I don’t worry about.
Reuters=Government Propaganda
Where I live 1/3 of the price of gas is tax so the government will be going to get this from EV’s somehow probably through licence plates every year. It already costs more to insure an EV because the government monopoly insurance co. says it costs more to fix an EV. The municipalities are now starting to charge $$ at the charging stations. When the majority of vehicles become EV’s the subsidies will disappear and the taxes will be loaded on!!
A few things bother me here:
1) Nobody seem to think that ICE engines can improve from where they are today. That simply is not true. Improvements are out there waiting for the cost/benefit equation to work out. With the high price of EVs I am sure we will see improvements to lower emissions and further improve fuel economy.
2) I don’t see anyone taking into consideration the cost of the improvements in our national electrical grid that will be required to support the addition of a high number of new EVs. This would be independent of how the energy was created.
3) I dislike States, Countries, etc. that are outlawing ICE engines. I think that is the wrong approach. I think it much wiser to continue reducing ICE emission requirements as is practical and let the consumer decide which to buy. We should continue to discuss the cost/benefit ratio and environmental impact of EVs and ICE powertrains and let the best solution win. We should not dictate the solution.
If you don’t live in a ‘Woke’ area, the US Investor-Owned utilities (with some exceptions to be mentioned) are constantly modernizing – with electric cars or without.
Even though I only drive plug-ins – I agree outlawing IC Engines is a dumb – unworkable Idea.
Places like Consolidated Edison in NY State, and Pacific Gas and Electric – in California charge Confiscatory Rates, yet cannot keep the lights on – and that is with evs or without.
The bottom line to all of the pointless ‘to-and-froing’ is futile.
Face the fact that the old and about to be superseded ICE environmentally polluting technology is about to be consigned to transport history as did the steam engine.
Advances in EV technology in aviation and automotive technology, together with improved materials and production processes and the urgent need to cut atmospheric emissions will accelerate the transition.
It is not a ‘pointless’ to and fro… It is familiarizing people with electric car operation and the day to day effects – which can be, and currently are, minimal.
If you look at the comments overall – most 100% ICE drivers have at least ‘Left the door open’ to modifying their points of view.
As I say, I only drive plug-in electrics (3 car family), but the unreasonable rigidity of opinion – along with totally unreasonable Ultimatims, seems to rest with the more vocal electric car people than not.
The ICE is going as regular transport power source – live with it!
Someone was actually paid to do this report?
I mean a five year old knows this information already HAHA
Just imagine when Battery Recycling will become a closed Loop System and mining will not even be required in the Future. Not sure how close or far to that we are but it will happen.
I still truly believe that GM can have Cadillac become a true Tier One Luxury Car Brand again thanks to the shift to EV’s and more importantly I believe that Chevrolet can totally leapfrog their Competition in Honda, Mazda, NissanSubaru, and Toyota. Hyandai and Kia are in the running too.
Very excited to see what the future holds for GM.
I do not believe anyone will be able to catch Tesla (I think they have solidified the so called Apple Position in consumers minds) and right now it is a Full on Race between the Hyundai Group, VW Group, some Chinese Companies, and GM for dominance in the Vehicle sector going forward.