GM Says It Already Offered Hybrids, EVs Are Long-Term Answer
45
Sponsored Links
General Motors and Volkswagen are both betting big on electric vehicles and looking to skip the hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicle stage – a decision that they believe will save them money and give them a jumpstart on the technology that will one day power the world.
Ford and Toyota, meanwhile, are investing in both hybrids and pure electric vehicles, which they believe will give customers more choice and put more green vehicles on our roads in less time.
The Detroit News recently spoke to representatives from both GM and Ford to have them elaborate on the hybrid vs. EV topic – which surfaced after a report was published last week detailing GM’s and VW’s commitment to pure EVs.
Doug Parks, GM’s vice president for electric vehicle development, said the automaker has already attempted to make a plug-in hybrid with the Chevrolet Volt, which struggled to sell, and thinks EVs are simply a superior solution.
“We’ve been on this path for a while,” he told The Detroit News. “We’ve done a lot of hybrids, but we think that EVs are the real answer. We think they’re the long-term answer.”
Parks also said that while there is a small risk in having no hybrid offerings going forward, there’s a bigger risk in not being a leader in technology that it believes will be widespread.
“We believe we’re really on the verge of an inflection point here,” Parks said. “Is there a risk? The bigger risk for us is not being a leader in this future EV space. It’d be more risky to take a backseat position in the future.”
Parks also told The Detroit News that GM knows the switch to EV will not be instant – it just wants to be ready for the transition as it happens.
“It’s not going to change overnight,” he added. “What we do know is there’s a transition happening, and we believe the EV is the better play.”
Ford told The Detroit News that while it is “as concerned as anybody about climate change,” they know that not all customers are in the same regulatory environment, so offering hybrids will allow more people to have the option of a greener, hybrid vehicle – even if an EV isn’t viable.
“We try to let the customers make the choice of what is best for them,” said Ford’s global director of electrification, Ted Cannis.
Source: The Detroit News
- Sweepstakes Of The Month: Win a Corvette Z06 and 2024 Silverado. Details here.
Sponsored Links
Sigh…here’s that “leader” thing again.
While GM has convinced themselves they’re “leading”, Tesla, Jaguar and Audi have already released actual EV product, and other “non-leading” PHEV companies from BMW to Kia have released/will soon release actual vehicles that give people fully electric driving in the vast majority of their circumstances, with the nice backup of having a gas tank if they need to make a long trip.
You know, the proposition that made Volt have the most satisfied and loyal fanbase of basically any GM product, until GM largely threw that away instead of building on the actual lead they had by offering additional, more marektable body types (e.g., a small Volt CUV). Instead, those folks will go get anything from a Audi e-tron to a Kia Niro PHEV, instead of waiting around until 2022 for something beyond the Bolt from the “leader.”
Outside of Tesla none of the EV’s listed outsell the Bolt and you can add the sales of Jaguar, Audi and Kia and not equal Bolt sales. Tesla sales more vehicles but Tesla has had a market to themselves. VW and GM will be the first companies to really test peoples appetite for the cost of Tesla vehicles in the coming years.
But I could add those two Jaguar and Audi model’s sales together and get double the revenue (and likely profit, if there is any) than the Bolt — that’s what happens when you sell a vehicle that starts at $75k (Audi e-tron) or $70k (Jaguar I-Pace at $70k) vs just $35k for the Bolt. Start to mix in vehicles like the new BMW 330e and BMW X5 PHEV that will launch next year in the states (at over $50k), and Tesla no longer has that market to itself–though it will remain a leader due to its considerable head-start (both in terms of brand loyalty and charging network).
So no one will be waiting for GM in 2022 to test people’s appetite for non-Tesla near-luxury and luxury electric vehicles — they can choose in 2020 from numerous other auto makers.
The only thing I can see is *if* GM delivers a top-notch EV Escalade by 2022, that could be really something. But as far as sedan and CUVs? GM is definitely behind and I don’t see how they will catch up with their strategy.
There is no way in Hell I would ever own an Audi or Jaguar EV. Their efficiency is Atrocious and Reliability is questionable at best. The Bolt EV is much more efficient and reliable, which is what a entry level BEV customer wants. GM does some stupid things, like making gutless 5.3 engines for their trucks and releasing a bland XT6. But moving to EV’s is a smart bet.
Except for a single model, moving to EV’s 2 to 3 years after everyone else (especially in the luxury market) is not, in fact, a smart bet.
Also, how many people cross shop a Bolt with an e-tron? It’s not only about efficiency when you get to the luxury market — it’s about ride, space, status, design, interior materials, safety, brand equity, etc. If someone looks at an Audi or BMW and decides they don’t like it for efficiency (which is a valid reason, as the Audi only gets 205 miles per charge), they’re going to go with a Tesla 10 times over rather than a Chevy.
Luxury vehicles are great as EV’s, but can only be owned by a few. A mainstream EV that the masses can purchase is important to replace those who just need a car to get around and not much else. The Bolt is much cheaper to lease, service, and insure than a Tesla. The reliability also means a car will be available in the used market for a while. Displacing more ICE’s with EV’s for the middle class is a good thing and really pushes adoption more than Rich people buying new Tesla’s every few years. There is lot of value remaining in used Chevy Bolt’s which will help address barriers to entry.
At this point it’s not about profit – it’s mindshare. Tesla as a bunch of mindshare and GM by selling about 300k Volts, Sparks and Bolts isn’t doing badly. For GM it’s more about what’s next. For the others, it’s about introducing products for the first time. Everyone loves talking about Kia and Hyundai for their entries but these cars were released almost 4 years after the Bolt was announced. Guess what they are barely better. The problem with $70k+ vehicles the market is really small. That why VW is counting on their ID vehicles to really sell in the millions of vehicles – not just 100k’s.
Took the words out of my mouth!!!
Volt was more than a hybrid. Like Honda Clarity it was an EV with a tiny back up gas engine for emergency /long trip. To toss this redundancy when we have so few charging stations is insane.
GM never properly explained Volt to the masses. They made sure that consumers did not view Volt as just another hybrid yet GM never took the time to explain why it was more real world useful than Tesla.
The gas engine had the power to recharge the electric motor. One could view it as a generator or even gas powered alternater or sorts.
Volt was impressive yet doomed due to poor branding not to mention Chevrolet hasn’t been seen as the go to technology brand in a few generations. Neither Volt (or even Bolt) provided the sort of halo Chevrolet so desperately needs. Corvette, regardless of how amazing, has little effect on your average driver who values function over form and shuns toys for boys as obnoxious relics from Detroit’s heyday.
GM has the technology but produces nothing. PSA has more EVs on the road. Already Cadillac should have a Tesla rival. If GM lacks the technology and has been bluffing a simple solution would have been buying Lucid with its Air prototype that received race reviews. The Lucid Air produced with GM’s industrial might would have changed the game two years ago and transformed either Cadillac or Buick.
it is silly to suggest gm doesn’t have the technical know how to build EVs.
as far as the volt, what is there to explain? no amount of explanation will convince many buyers to buy a $40K for something that looks like a cruze.
Well, we really don’t know if your statement “no amount of explanation will convince many buyers to buy a $40k for something that looks like a cruze” because GM DIDN’T TRY! GM advertises the hell out of their truck line and trucks are selling like hotcakes. Where was the advertising for the Volt??? Crickets. Maybe the reason was that the Volt wouldn’t produce the double-digit profit that their trucks do. In the long run, I think that GM will suffer badly for their greed.
nobody has ever tried to sell ice skates to a headhunter in borneo either so we’ll never know if that would’ve worked.
i agree with you that this is risky but i think gm is figuring that low gas prices are here to stay. US shale has completely upended the oil markets and supply isn’t a problem foreseeable future.
so a non-hybrid strategy with EVs as luxury vehicles(i.e. cadillac) is reasonable.
The Volt is a very hard sell with cheap gas. And no matter what a Volt based vehicle will always cost more than an ICE only vehicle. So you’re always trying to explain the benefits of an EV. Meanwhile Tesla just goes on selling EV’s only and stealing headlines. If Tesla didn’t exist you would probably see a lot of follow-ons to the Volt. But Tesla has shown people the promise land, so the Volt became an also ran.
Right. Do away with hybrids. Thats why when I traded my ELR I had to go to another manufacture. Nice job.
But they are the “leaders” it says so in the article! I have been impatiently waiting for someone to come out with a practical AWD CUV to replace our Volt and an EV truck to replace my gas hog Silverado, but from how things are lookin’ I think I will just grow my hair out and but an ID BUZZ soon and say F em all!.
You can’t really be serious, Rob? It’s obvious that your anti-GM mindset has you blinded.
I’m not entirely sure I agree with only building EVs instead of hybrids. I guess mostly because I could possibly see myself spending the extra on a proper hybrid version of a normal car.
I don’t see myself buying an electric car at all, given how expensive they are and how limited they are.
Doug Parks is not visionary enough to be a VP at EZ Go Golf Carts, much less at GM electrical vehicle development. At Lexus, Hybrid sales are up 44% this year alone. Cadillac discontinued their only hybrid, the Chinese made CT6, last year after a half-assed attempt to sell a few of them. GM’s go to excuse for incompetence, “Canceled due to lack of demand.” GM is about 5 years behind the curve on electrical vehicles and probilly 5 years from irreverence.
General Motors never gave the Volt architecture a chance to succeed as the Cadillac ELR disappeared before people even got a chance to know it, a true test would have been to build other vehicles using the Volt architecture like the new Chevy Blazer CUV or a Volt variant of the Malibu as this would be real world testing.
That is true. If GM placed the Volt technology in the Equinox (which now share the same platform), it would have out sold all the other hybrids. Buyers are going for hybrid CUVs now! Just look at Toyota sales numbers for the hybrid RAV4, and why Ford will offer the Explorer and Escape in hybrid models next year. GM is blind!
A Volt based hybrid is very different than what Toyota has in the RAV4. The RAV4 hybrid is just Prius technology in a different vehicle. Would you be willing to pay $10k more for an Equinox – Volt based vehicle? Remember the tax credit decreasing and an Equinox sized vehicle will require more batteries than a Volt.
You already have people complaining about cost of the Chevy vehicles like the Blazer. So you want to add another $10K to it?
Best to move this to Cadillac where they can afford to add the EV package and offer the luxury add ons that add value to the vehicle. It makes the extra cost look like a better value.
The Volt was a good idea that time moved on from and pricing just never worked out. If it had been cheaper things may have been different.
It all comes down to cost and value. People will take a hybrid if it is the same price but most will not pay the extra cost with out some value in return.
Also image pays. The S had image that people would pay more for. The Taycan will do the same if not more so.
Not interested in EV, and judging by sales, most the public isn’t either.
You are old fashioned and almost extinct in mental abilities. EVs are the best way to move people and cargo! Most trains and all subways are electric. Even the Apollo astronauts used a EV Moon Rover! Would you use a gasoline powered drill, or let your children use gasoline powered toys? How about gasoline powered appliances in your home??
Electric transportation is the best form because it is the most efficient. Even the two NASA Crawler Transporters, which were built in 1966 yet carried ALL the U.S. space vehicles since 1967, are hybrids (using Diesel motors as generators and eight motors as the movers), are the two largest vehicles on Earth, and will carry over ten million pounds each! All the new ships, either military or cruise, are hybrids, too.
I’m far from convinced the public has no interest.
I would rather blame the price as the first weak sales culprit.
I think this is a play on cost versus value. Pure electric is starting to prove to be something that can be done on the cheap in the near term. The cost of an engine and batteries will always be more expensive and complex, adding to the overall cost, over pure electric. If they can figure out how to produce a Bolt like product for the cost of a Sonic/Cruze, then whey will have an opportunity to lead. If they don’t lower the cost to that range, this gamble will never pay off.
Two simple things to say about GM’s Bolt and Volt.
Nice gifts. Wrong packaging.
I agree with others who believe GM could have easily spread the Volt love across multiple venues.
I’m confused as to why they didn’t?
And, yes, the ELR was priced out of the game.
Im very curious to see the “leadership” GM will allow Cadillac to rule the EV charge. No pun intended.
To be honest, I hate EV cars. And, even more, EV Cadillacs. That seems so wrong. I guess it’s just me?
EV is probably the future? But I will miss the sound and fury of an ICE, as opposed to the almost silent whir of electric. I feel like my toy cars as a kid are being made, grownup size.
With a grownup price to match:/
“I agree with others who believe GM could have easily spread the Volt love across multiple venues.
I’m confused as to why they didn’t?”
Woah there, lunatic – you’re using logic! Can’t be doing that!
The Voltec powertrain, in a form, made it to the Malibu Hybrid, which really made for quite a nice vehicle…and something that seemed rather modular and prime to be put into almost every other vehicle Chevy (and GM, overall) made…and yet…nothing. As for the Malibu Hybrid? GM chose not to advertise it, and based on the order guide…appears to have killed it for 2020, likely due to “slow sales” of their own fault.
I have a 2017 Volt and it is absolutely wonderful. My regular roundtrip drive is 34 miles, which I can easily make using about half my range. I fill up roughly twice a year and after factoring in electrical cost, I save over $100 a month compared to my gas vehicle before. Yet they never thought to shove that exact powertrain in anything else. Absolutely nonsensical.
The problem with making a Volt type Malibu is cost. Adding Volt technology to a Cruze added about $15k-$20K to the cost of an ICE only Cruze. A Malibu would have been a $50k+ car, with a low to mid $40k’s price after tax rebate. After all that you would still be competing with Tesla which could go faster, quieter and would have been $10k more.
Also, you appear to be a perfect candidate for an EV. If you only fill the Volt twice a year it means you’re normally driving in the Volt’s EV range which most EV now do 4x – 5x the Volt’s EV range.
The EV movement is hijacked by loud mouth Tesla fan boys….more bark then bite. GM says there is a market for EVs. I am sure there is a market for EVs is at the premium level. Cadillac, Merc, BMW, Porsche etc. Yes, Tesla is a force there, but in the 25,000 segment Tesla is non existanant. Tesla backed off of the 35,000 model 3. The fanboys try and say a model 3 is cheaper to own than a camery. Their voodoo economics take in gas savings, charging at home and the tax break. Not everyone will get the whole tax break, not everyone can charge at home.
All GM is doing is abandoning that segment to KIA, and the Asian brands. Many people still need ICE affordable cars.
Bottom line: GM failed at hybrids and this is an attempt to cover it up by making promises that seem to be further and further out in the horizon.
I used to work for the Volt program, and here are the facts:
PHEV’s are dying because:
1) Companies get more credits for selling a BEV than an equivalent PHEV
2) BEV costs are going down while PHEV costs stay high.
The Bolt initially lost money, but it will break even by 2021. The Volt was never meant to turn profit, it was designed to experiment with EV drive in the real world and improve it’s reliability, until they have been perfected for a BEV. The Bolt still has much better efficiency than Audi or Jaguar, and is on track to break even by next year.
The Hybrid was a compromise for people with range anxiety, to reduce the price of the very high priced EV models etc. It was a compromise that was intended to be a bridge between the two vehicles.
It worked at first witht he Prius. GM tried to out engineer them with the Volt but the price crept back up. Great car but you were back to paying a premium for a small car again.
Today the range is up and prices are coming down. There are two camps of buyers those who want EV and those who want ICE and not many bridge between the two. If you are going to pay more you may as well get the full electric package.
GM made several mistakes. One the Volt cost too much for what you got. Great vehicle but it was not cheap. The second was going to Chevy with a low cost EV that has no profit and really still has a price penalty on it.
To be fair the entire industry did not see people paying $120K for a Tesla and being happy to do so. Now that they have seen this everyone is going higher priced EV models to make them profitable and to make things cheaper with volume. Cadillac is where they should have been and are now there.
But Hybrids are not anything an ICE fan will pay more for. Then today the EV fan is willing to pay more to get the full EV.
Companies are now starting to drop the Hybrid if they have a good EV program. But there are those who are far behind and have little money to pay for the development so they are buying systems from others to go hybrid to buy time. FCA is a perfect example.
GM and VW have major EV programs now so they will not need to make that step with Hybrids anymore.
Other than the Prius there has not been one Hybrid that people said Damn I need one of those. Most were systems that were forced on the consumer much like the start stop mode. Or they were like the GM SUV Hybrids that were offered and they cost more and few bought them till they were rebated to the same price as a non Hybrid.
Like it or now EV has to be part of the future due to regulations. The sooner the MFG’s find a way to make them and make them profitable the better. EV is not going to be dominate over night but it will be slow growth. Same with ICE as it will be with us at least till 2050 based on industry plans at this point. new tech could change that but right now.
There is a problem with following Tesla, the S/X demand is weakening to the point where Tesla just had to offer free supercharging again and not to mention you can now buy a Performance S with more range than ever for just under $100K…The Model 3 has been cannibalizing those sales…
The problem with Tesla at this point is the S was their money car. It was paying the bills. The X was terrible and under performed. This hurt the 3 that makes little money and struggles to provide funding for new product.
The truth is they left the S rot on the vine and with the Taycan coming it will really struggle as it will no longer be the image car. The S need to be redone like last year but there is no money to do it.
Tesla also should stop the 3 till it can make the money they need. It is their Bolt. Lots of investment and labor but little return.
The S was lower labor less investment and much greater income.
Like all new technologies they are introduced on high end models till prices come down.
Watch what Porsche does. They will garner the EV image car and they will make a lot of money. As time goes on and tech becomes cheaper they will move the tech to cheaper cars at prices similar to ICE models and no more high price penalty for EV.
Even then if it reaches 25%-30% of the market they will be doing good.
GM will be much further along than Ford and Toyota if they play their cards right.
The key to EV’s for GM will be interior quality (Bolt levels will not suffice) leading Technology, and some sort of Autonomous level.
To be honest, the biggest issue with the Bolt’s interior is the use of hard plastics (the design is fine, just needed more soft-touch surfaces), seats (add additional padding and wider seatbacks) and body style (add additional overhang) and ACC (easy fix). These are really the only things GM go wrong with the Bolt and easily fixed in a mid-cycle refresh.
Ed Asnwer?
Li-Ion EV batteries are going to be a big problem for landfills as they are toxic and too expensive/hard to recycle. Pb acid batteries (easy and cheap to recycle) and a Volt like system(for much better efficiency) that can be also be retrofitted to older vehicles may be cost affective and better for the environment which is why most buy EV.
Maybe we need a better cost effective battery before we fully go fully electric!
What is it with GM for years cannot get a CEO with some testicular fortitudes and have to follow political correctness? I thought when Barra became CEO perhaps GM would finally have a CEO with balls. NOPE!! She is even worst!!
I think the last CEO that was worth a shit was Roger Smith. They must be cursed. GM could kick everyone’s but if they had a CEO that was bold and didn’t follow or care what elitist environmental nut jobs say and just listen to their market.
Pure Electric cars will continue to be a pipe dream, as long as sufficient charging stations are few and far between. Even after finding a charging station you may have to wait for hours for your turn to charge your car. The VOLT was the perfect solution for both around town and long trips. GM lost a great opportunity.
I completely agree. The main problem with the current offering of EVs is the amount time required to recharge. It’s not too much of a problem at the moment since there isn’t an over abundance of EVs on the road. What would happen if half of the ICE vehicles were replaced with EVs. Does anyone remember the ’70’s and the gas lines, same thing would happen with the EVs. Too many vehicles taking too long to recharge at a public charging station. If/When they are able to safely get the EV recharge time down to 5 minutes or less then the EV may be ready for prime-time and the masses. As improvements are made in battery tech and charging methods/rates are made those same improvements obliterate the resale value of current offerings.
I think the real question people need to ask themselves is how many long distance drives do you take yearly? And by long distance I mean the need to charge multiple times in one day, so greater than 300 miles. Even the Bolt could travel 300 miles with a 30 minute stop to charge and it’s one of the lowest of the long range EV’s. That’s about 5 hours of driving with a 30 minute stop – that’s fairly normal.
For local driving EV’s are a lot more convenient because you have a full “tank” daily charging at home.
Id agree, for many city dwellers, home changing is not an option. For suburbanites, EVs are an excellent option.
The ace up the sleeve for EVs is home charging.
GM tried hybrids : Yes again GM management is a check box management , they just like to fix check boxes. For them put ticks on
GM Hybrid Tries :
1) 2 Mode hybrid on Trucks (tick)
2) 2 mode hybrid on SUVs (tick )
3) BAS hybrid on cars (tick )
4) Mild Hybrid on Trucks (tick )
5) EREV on cars (tick )
6) BEV on CUV (tick)
The reality is they just want to do only those ticks and they didn’t want people to understand the vision or buy them. The truth is Volt was a good vision with poor execution. All the above check boxes were poor execution. They were not a vision, they were just engineering answers that we can do also.
Same is Bolt or EV strategy too, They don’t have a vison. They just have engineering answers.
What model 3 / Tesla sells is a vision not a car. They create super charging infrastructure (its addressing different pieces in a puzzle ) so that people buy the vision.
The correct BEV at this moment GM can bring out is Traverse BEV, similar to Rivian R1S and R1T or Bollinger B1 and B2 which cab be a Unibody truck and CVU and dont do checkbox filling work.
125 years ago a new emerging industry was sweeping the country, Edison’s DC electric grid and the Westinghouse AC grid. Both were in battle for the standard. AC won the world over. Fourth five years ago another battle started, JVC’s VHS and the Sony Beta Max, VHS won. Now are we in a similar situation? Hybrid or all EV?
With these three samples both sides had advantages over the other, but the real reason a standard won over was what the customer bought. Hybrid allows us to cut our teeth into the electric powered vehicle before many will go to full EV. But GM and all other manufactures must looking as who will the future customers be. My two grand daughters ages 9 and 12 can run circles around me using their iPad and iPhone and interface with a MAC computer. They never had to battle Window’s OS crashes and will never learn what it means to change the spark plugs every 10k miles as I had. One day when they are making a choice to purchase a vehicle, all electric with touchscreen will only feel natural and less complicated.
I’m retired and if there was a hybrid pick up truck, I would really favor in getting one. I can drive 600 miles in one day with the AC on full blast when it is 95 degrees on the road without any anxiety.