Cadillac CT6 sales decreased in the United States and in Canada in January 2018.
Cadillac CT6 Sales - January 2018 - United States
In the United States, Cadillac CT6 deliveries totaled 628 units in January 2018, a decrease of about 1 percent compared to 634 units sold in January 2017.| MODEL | JAN 2018 / JAN 2017 | JANUARY 2018 | JANUARY 2017 |
|---|---|---|---|
| CT6 | -0.95% | 628 | 634 |
Cadillac CT6 Sales - January 2018 - Canada
In Canada, Cadillac CT6 deliveries totaled 17 units in January 2018, a decrease of about 19 percent compared to 21 units sold in January 2017.| MODEL | JAN 2018 / JAN 2017 | JANUARY 2018 | JANUARY 2017 |
|---|---|---|---|
| CT6 | -19.05% | 17 | 21 |
The GM Authority Take
The 1 percent drop in January CT6 U.S. deliveries was significantly lower than the segment average of 7 percent. The performance places the full-size Cadillac sedan in second place in its competitive set in terms of overall sales volume – behind the Mercedes-Benz S-Class, which outsold the entire segment combined and outsold the CT6 almost three-fold.
Even so, the CT6 outsold the Genesis G90, BMW 7 Series, Lexus LS and Audi A8 (see Audi A8 sales). Both the Lexus and Audi are seeing abnormally low sales volumes as a result of ongoing launches of all-new models. As such, both the Lexus and Audi posted higher year-over-year sales drops than the CT6.
We attribute the January CT6 sales performance to the following factors:
- The CT6 being a competitive vehicle that delivers greater value than many other vehicles in its segment (net positive impact on CT6 sales)
- A dominant acceptance and market position for the Mercedes-Benz S-Class (net negative impact on CT6 sales)
- The ongoing shift in consumer buying dynamics that favors crossover utility vehicles at the expense of other vehicle types like sedans and hatchbacks (net negative impact on CT6 sales)
Sales Numbers - Full-Size Luxury Cars On Rear-Drive Platforms - January 2018 - United States
| MODEL | JAN 18 / JAN 17 | JANUARY 18 | JANUARY 17 |
|---|---|---|---|
| S-CLASS | +29.46% | 1,569 | 1,212 |
| CT6 | -0.95% | 628 | 634 |
| G90 | -20.94% | 370 | 468 |
| 7 SERIES | -33.58% | 362 | 545 |
| LS | -58.57% | 116 | 280 |
| A8 | -55.91% | 112 | 254 |
| TOTAL | -6.96% | 3,157 | 3,393 |
The full-size luxury sedan segment contracted 7 percent in January.
Below, we have included sales of the Cadillac XTS, Lincoln Continental and Acura RLX for informational purposes. The vehicles are full-size like the rest of the segment contenders, but are priced significantly lower than the rest of the segment, and therefore are not entirely in the same segment as the other models.
Sales Numbers - Full-Size Luxury Cars On Front-Drive Platforms - January 2018 - United States
| MODEL | JAN 18 / JAN 17 | JANUARY 18 | JANUARY 17 |
|---|---|---|---|
| XTS | -34.02% | 1,220 | 1,849 |
| CONTINENTAL | -30.16% | 815 | 1,167 |
| RLX | +67.50% | 134 | 80 |
| TOTAL | -29.94% | 2,169 | 3,096 |
About Cadillac CT6
The Cadillac CT6 is a full-size prestige luxury sedan. It slots above the mid-size Cadillac CTS and compact Cadillac ATS as the largest Cadillac sedan.
The current model was introduced for the 2016 model year and represents the first generation of the CT6 nameplate. The 2018 CT6 represents the third model year of the first-generation CT6 and introduces such features as Super Cruise, Rear Camera Mirror Washer and an updated CUE infotainment system (to version 2.6). The vehicle rides on the advanced, high-tech and lightweight GM Omega platform that is currently not shared with any other vehicles, though a full-size crossover on the architecture has been rumored.
For North American markets, the CT6 is built by GM USA at the GM Detroit-Hamtramck factory. For China, the model is built at the Cadillac China factory, aka SGM Jinqiao. The CT6 Plug-In model is built at this plant for global markets, including the United States.
About The Numbers
- All percent change figures compared to Cadillac CT6 January 2017 sales
- Cadillac CT6 sales include all CT6 variants, including CT6 and CT6 PHEV
- Mercedes-Benz S-Class sales include S-Class Sedan, S-Class Coupe and Mercedes-Maybach S-Class
- Audi A8 sales include Audi A8 and all variants, including A8L and S8
- Sales figures for the Jaguar XJ and Maserati Quattroporte, which compete in the fullsize luxury sedan class, are not included since Jaguar does not disclose sales by vehicle line
- In the United States, there were 25 selling days in January 2018 and 24 selling days in January 2017
- In Canada, there were 25 selling days in January 2018 and 24 selling days in January 2017
Related News & Info
- GM news
- GM incentives and offers
- Cadillac CT6 information
Related Sales Reporting
- Running GM sales results
- Running Chevrolet sales results
- Running Cadillac sales results
- Running Cadillac CT6 sales results
- Running Buick sales results
- Running GMC sales results
- January 2017 GM sales results
- U.S. GM January 2017 sales results
- U.S. January 2017 Chevrolet sales results
- U.S. January 2017 Cadillac sales results
- U.S. January 2017 Buick sales results
- U.S. January 2017 GMC sales results
- GM Canada January 2017 sales results
- Canada January 2017 Chevrolet sales results
- Canada January 2017 Cadillac sales results
- Canada January 2017 Buick sales results
- Canada January 2017 GMC sales results
- GM China January 2017 sales results
- Global January 2017 Cadillac sales results
- U.S. GM January 2017 sales results
Comments
The Lexus LS is slowly dying, from a 2007 high of 35,000 units to a little over 4000 last year, yet no one writes about that, but the minute that the ELR didn’t sell 100,000 units on the first day it was a huge flop.
No doubt.
It’s not dying, it’s just in a strange spot when units of the old model have been mostly sold out and the new model will begin to arrive next week and more so in March.
No its slowly dying
2013-10,727
2014-8,559
2015-7,165
2016-5,514
2017-4,094
This is from a vehicle that reliably clocked 20,000-30,000/yr for more than a decade.
Sorry, but its dying.
No, not really.
You need some context to the numbers. The last, third-gen LS (XF40) was introduced in 2006… it was the oldest car in its class by 2011… so the slow decline in sales volume was due to the fact that it became the oldest and least competitive car in its class, which is a normal turn of events.
By the time it was replaced with the new model, it had the longest life span of any car in its class IN HISTORY – running from 2006 – 2017… that’s 12 model years.
So now, it’s not slowly dying… it’s just in need of some new blood – which it just got… and I expect sales to grow as availability grows.
Translation: it’s still dying. Model age contributed to it but no work around to the numbers. Where’s the confusion!!??
Slowly dying is highly subjective, so perhaps that’s the source of confusion.
The car just got an all new generation, which is far from “dying”. does that clear it up?
Sales numbers will determine that.
Lexus LS went into sales decline when customers realized that the LS460 had gone to more of a “German ride” vs. the more plush riding LS430. Sales of the LS460 were good in the first two years, since it was a new model, but since then they’ve been terrible compared with the LS430. Cadillac could learn from this (not everyone wants a German ride), but instead they have doubled down on imitating the Germans. Even to the point of hiring guys named Johan and Uwe to run the brand.
Drew, I must agree with you my friend. I have ridden in and driven an XTS before, and I must say that is doesn’t hold a candle compared to the DTS. I recently rode in a 2008 DTS for the first time and here’s what I have to say.
1. the parts sharing was more than obvious. Rear view mirror straight from… almost every other gm vehicle from that time, Tahoe window switches, Tahoe “infotainment” system, and mirrors that looked liked they came from an Impala (not to mention, too small).
2. Material quality sucked. Cheap plastic everywhere.
3. the ride was AMAZING! best I’ve felt from a modern automobile.
4. I was surprised when I got in and the seat was so wide that the distance from the seat to the door arm-rest felt huge.
5. After riding in an XTS, I can say that the XTS feels so under powered, not to mention more “screamy” and loud, compared to the DTS. I knew about the 4-spd trans in the DTS, and went in thinking that it was going to be slow, but it just felt so much more powerful and smooth compared to the XTS.
Honestly, the materials sucked, and its probably one of the ugliest cars I’ve seen. BUT, the ride, engine and seats were the best of any car from the “modern” era. If Cadillac could make an XTS or even CT6 with a MUCH better ride, and an EcoTech V8 (to save fuel), I would buy one, maybe even 2 in a heartbeat!
I owned a 07 DTS and it was a great car. I agree with many things you said here and I would add that sitting in the XTS feels like your in a mid size car in terms of width. I feel like the XTS and Impala for that matter seem much too narrow in the fact that they are 73 inchs wide. The CT6 and DTS are both wider and much better in terms that you don’t feel like the passenger is 2 inches away from you.
Henry, thanks for your comments on the DTS – I certainly agree with most of them. Whats great about the car are the ride, seating, engine power, smooth transmission. And the Bose stereo is adequate, I’m kind of a stereo snob and I’ve heard better, but it’s far better than in most cars. I also like the way the sunroof is over my head and not too far back like some cars.
I agree that the interior could be more luxury. There is a lot of hard plastic, which doesn’t bother me but it’s not right for a luxury car that was over $50k about 10 years ago (in luxury III or premium trim. Also the dashboard is not as good as more modern Cadillacs. I like seeing a big digital speedometer like most of the current Cadillacs have (maybe they all have them now). DTS digital speedometer is there, but it’s small and low, hard for me to see given my head and steering wheel position. I do like the controls however, no CUE, useful buttons on the steering wheel. Heating and AC work great. It does lack a backup camera, which it would certainly have on an update – would be nice to have.
Certainly this is a car that could have been improved and modernized, not dropped from the line-up. Keeping the ride and roominess, the power and the smooth transmission. Sure they could move it up from 4 speeds (for marketing sake), but make sure it’s reliable first. Frankly I doubt most people who would buy the DTS or a successor care about more forward speeds, or the slightly better gas milage that it might yield.
I don’t actually care about using parts from other GM vehicles, as long as they are Cadillac worthy. But it does make sense to change the styling on certain things such as the window lift switches, so that people won’t actually recognize them as being directly from another GM product. In other words, the parts that the customer can see and identify should be uniquely Cadillac, even if other parts are used across GM platforms (but Cadillac quality).
And as far as looks, that’s up to the individual, but I don’t think the DTS is ugly. It does look somewhat dated, but that would be true in almost any case. Maybe a bit stodgy, but that’s usually the case with big luxury cars. To me it looks like a somewhat fatter STS, and the STS in its day was considered a sleek looking, attractive car. My DTS is white, and white is a color that is going to show the true nature of the styling. I think it looks good in white, even though it’s the ride that impresses, not the styling. An update of the DTS could have been very nice, and Cadillac should have promoted the ride quality.
After the XTS goes, the CT6 will be Cadillac’s only big sedan. My hope is that the CT6 ride quality is improved, the transmission becomes more refined, and the car isn’t offered in cheapened versions. The Cadillac flagship should not cut corners. And once they’ve got it right, they need to actually advertise it. I still don’t like the name – CT6 sounds less worthy than A7 or A8, Series 7, S class, G80, G90, S90, etc. At the very least they should have called it CT8. Or been truly bold and given it a real name (funny how the Escalade carries on under a real name, and sells very well). Maybe once the CT6 is revised and perfected, they’ll give it a real name.
Ride quality in the CT6 has to date been rather well reviewed and received.
Quite a bit of your feedback is based upon personal impression (CT6 sounds less worthy than A7 or A8, Series 7, S class, G80, G90, S90 – really!!!???) which at the end of the day means little save for what car it influences you to personally buy.
And that ‘s the rub in this forum when it comes to many things about Cadillac. Impression Bias.
If the brand came out with an uber expensive no holds barred model, there’d be that camp complaining that the brand is delusional to think someone would pay for such. So the well engineered CT6 is strategically priced and introduced with competitive engine choices similar to those of competitors who also offer 4 cylinders in their full size flagships, an interior that’s been properly outfitted if but for what has been said to be too many different materials (read: not cheap) and it still doesn’t get a fair shake.
Lexus LS sales have especially declined during the LS460 model. That model had a stiffer (more German-like) ride than the previous LS models. It appears to me that the public didn’t like the stiffer ride. It wasn’t merely about an aging model.
Lexus LS model sales (US) by year:
LS400
1st year: 43k
2nd year: 37k
3rd year: 33k
4th year: 24k
5th year: 22k
6th year: 24k
7th year: 22k
8th year: 20k
9th year: 21k
10th year: 16k
11th year: 16k
LS430
1st full year: 31k
2nd year: 26k
3rd year: 24k
4th year: 32k
5th year: 26k
6th year: 20k
LS460
1st full year: 35k
2nd year: 20k
3rd year: 11k
4th year: 12k
5th year: 10k
6th year: 9k
7th year: 11k
8th year: 9k
9th year: 7k
10th year: 6k
11th year: 4k
Your surface-level analysis needs context to be useful.
I was actually at a certain Lexus dealership when Akio Toyoda visited the store and a close relative of mine spent two days with him at the launch of the third gen LS during this time.
The third gen LS saw a significant increase in price over the second gen, seeing many buyers move out of the vehicle into something they could better afford… or those who could afford it went to buy the “true” class-leading S class and 7er, which were all new at this time.
This was strategic as the prior LS was priced similarly to the current CT6, and Lexus wanted to become a tier 1 luxury player, charging tier 1 prices.
Then, the car wasn’t updated for a while (the facelift wasn’t enough to entice the loyal existing owners to upgrade), leaving many to hang on to theirs until the all new model… thereby causing the sales drop.
Nothing to do with ride. It was still the softest car in the segment. Good atrempt to prove your theory Drew… but you’re wrong once again.
“Nothing to do with ride. It was still the softest car in the segment”
There you go again with the “segment”. Every car is its own segment. The reality is that the LS460 did not have as nice a ride as the LS430, a lot of people didn’t like that, and declined to buy. When you lose what your customers expect, you lose sales.
Your zero experience in this industry continues to shine through.
Vehicles in a “segment” refers to those that customers cross-shop the most/the most frequently. People shopping the LS look at least at one other car that is within these cars: MBZ S-Class, BMW 7er, Audi A8/S8, and now the Cadillac CT6 and Genesis G90. That’s its segment. So like it or not, segmentation is important. This isn’t a term or a concept that I invented, it’s an industry term and general understanding and has a lot of meaning behind it… so not sure why you keep trying to argue about it.
As for the product, the LS460 became a little more sporty in some configurations over the LS400 and LS430. Why? Because Lexus saw that its customer base and the market in general wanted a more sporty option. Unfortunately, it wasn’t executed as well as it should have been: the price increased on a car that was typically the value choice (the least expensive car in the segment)… this pushed many customers to go down to a GS or “up” (in price/payments) to a tier one car/brand (and associated status) like the 7 series or S-Class. Many of the “customers” that you describe in your last sentence were no longer alive and/or were no longer driving when the LS460 was released compared to the LS400 and LS430, both of which had the highest average purchase age of almost any car in the industry. Hence, the move was in order to make the product more attractive to a younger audience, which was increasingly buying full-size luxury cars from Germany and not considering the Lexus LS.
This is yet another example of why you need to have a good understanding of the segment, and can’t throw it away just because you feel like it.
But to know and comprehend this beyond raw sales data, you have to have experience working in the industry… which you don’t. So your perspective is highly limited.
Tell me – have you ever driven the Lexus LS, or a Mercedes-Benz S-Class or a BMW 7 Series?
Doubling down on German road manners has propelled CT6 into second place. The effort seems to be working.
Buick is the brand for plush premium cloud-like comfort. XTS is just a jacked up Lacrosse.
I love CT6. I especially love the headlights to are rumoured to be going vehicle like it’s brand rivals.
Porsche still works in its iconic round headlights and Cadillac should be the same.
Am I in the minority loving Art and Science more than Escuela? I question whether European metoo styling will boost sales. Art and Science must always evolve but is a radical change necessary?It was unique, eclectic design that put Benz back on the map.
Steve, we can argue about what being in “2nd place” means for a cherry-picked category to which the CT6 might not even belong. And remember that it is a Cadillac, that automatically gives it a very large dealer base and very large base of customers who still view Cadillac in a positive way. Is giving the CT6 German road manners “working”? It’s the worst-selling new Cadillac sedan since WWII, by a long-shot. Whether or not it would have done better if given an American “Cadillac ride” instead of transmogrifying into a German-like car is unknown at this point.
I do like the styling of the CT6, and I too prefer Art & Science to the Escala approach. But getting away from the angular American look is just more of Johan’s approach to Europeanize Cadillac with a bland subtly rounded look. It’s called being a follower instead of a leader, or as you put it “metoo”.
“Is giving the CT6 German road manners “working”?”
This German reviewer seems to think that the CT6 has great road manners and is quite comfortable.
https://youtu.be/zWHoOI4y_98?t=1092
I don’t know why you continue to think the CT6 is a flagship car. It most certainly isn’t one. I also don’t know what your deal is with the Germans in general, as I’d hate to be the one to tell you what the largest single ethnic group in America is.
Grawbuddy, why am I surprised that a German (in Germany) would like the way the CT6 rides? It may be great for the Autobahn. I’d like to see the big Cadillac designed for the USA, not for Germany.
“I don’t know why you continue to think the CT6 is a flagship car. It most certainly isn’t one.”
Flagship sedan, defined. It’s simply their biggest, most expensive sedan. Maybe in Canada you have a different definition of “flagship sedan”; I can’t help you there.
“I also don’t know what your deal is with the Germans in general, as I’d hate to be the one to tell you what the largest single ethnic group in America is.”
I’m not against the Germans, in fact I’m ethnically German. So what? I’m American and I don’t think Cadillac should drop its American heritage to become a German-wannabe. I happen to not like the way German cars ride, I don’t like the way they are styled, and I don’t think they are right for American roads and American driving habits. And guess what? If you like your German car, you can keep your German car. It’s not as if there’s a lack of choices among German cars.
I’m interested in Cadillac/GM as a business story, as well as in the actual cars. And I can see that Cadillac has gone from a profit-center for GM to a profit-drain, all while trying to reinvent itself as a German-like brand. I also like the fact that as an American, Cadillac was a proud and successful brand (until it started imitating the Germans). Which is more likely to be successful and command the profits of a unique offering, an attempt to copy what someone else has been doing (one generation later), or being a leader and offering something that the competition doesn’t have?
What I don’t understand, is why people who don’t like Cadillacs and prefer German cars would want anything to do with this website. If you think German cars are better, why not post your thoughts on German car websites?
Drew, The entire sedan market is shrinking so WW2 figures don’t on their own shock me.
As for Cadillac having any domestic advantage, I disagree. In fact, for anyone under 54 Cadillac is viewed as a profoundly damaged brand due to the product disasters of the 1980s and 1990s.
Exactly correct, Steve. Cadillac sales are held back / negatively impacted by a weak brand image/perception, especially those under the age of 50… and even those above 50 don’t have much respect for the brand, and are really unfamiliar with its offerings.
The only way to fix this and turn Cadillac into a relevant luxury automaker in the near-term and for the future is to make products that are relevant in the market and that appeal to younger buyers… products that are exciting, that attract attention, that are wanted. Conversely, resting on the feeble, worn-out laurels of Cadillac’s past – a solution wrongly suggested by Drew – is not the answer. Or rather, it is the wrong answer.
“Conversely, resting on the feeble, worn-out laurels of Cadillac’s past – a solution wrongly suggested by Drew – is not the answer.”
Actually, I’ve never suggested this. What I have said is that they should build MODERN Cadillacs in terms of styling, interior, electronics, etc. and use modern engines and platforms too, as long as they remain true to their classic core values. Somehow when I say “classic core values”, someone thinks (or pretends to think) that this means making exact replicas of old Cadillacs, including landau roofs, gear-shift on the steering wheel, bench front seating, etc. No no no no no.
I’ve laid out the classic Cadillac values in the past, and apparently it’s time for me to do that again now. Note that these values are the minimum, not the maximum. For example I say that all Cadillacs should have a smooth comfortable ride. That does not mean they can’t handle well, if that good handling can be accomplished without reducing ride quality.
So here goes:
CADILLAC CORE VALUES (historically and should be the case today)
– Seating should be roomy, head and legroom for driver and passengers.
– Ride should be comfortable, best among the mass-produced cars
– Car should be very reliable, such as Lexus today
– Car should be very refined – no loud engine, no hard shifting gears, no squeaks and rattles, etc.
– Interior should be real luxury, no cheap-o base models. Seats comfortable and supportive.
– Electronics should be up-to-date, including very good sounding stereo.
– Engine should be smooth and powerful; easy merging and passing
– Exterior styling should be bold, angular (inc. trademark vertical taillights), American.
– Cadillac should not sell cheap cars under the Cadillac name, including “base” versions with cheap seating surfaces, cheap headlights, cheap stereos, downgraded engines, etc. in other words, every Cadillac should be worthy of the name.
– Cadillac flagship especially should be offered with very few if any options, so that all who drive or ride in it will be getting the best that Cadillac has to offer.
“German Ride” = Any Cadillac that doesn’t lose wire wheel covers on every turn and doesn’t handle like a drunken magic carpet ride……oh no, thats it, its an M5 DTM car now…….
The LS has not been updated since 2007 when it was an all new redesign. It received a minor refresh in 13 and that was it. The design was dated as was most of its technology so its not real hard to figure out why the sales were in decline. That was the same as the A8 which had also been long in the tooth. I am quite sure the all new model of both of these cars that are on the way will put them both back on top in sales.
A good number of the cheapskate luxury buyers may have been tempted by the Genesis and the K900 something or other too, not all of them, because there just isn’t the level of butt kissing at a Hyundai dealer, but the LS is no long the generic luxury car choice for rich people that can’t be bothered to care.
Hmm, XTS out sells the CT6 AND the Continental……. and people want to get rid of it?
But wait…. isn’t the Continental also sold to fleets, and converted into limousines?
Interesting…
Roughly half of XTS sales are to fleets. It’s a rental car queen.
And no, the Continental is not sold as often to fleets as the XTS is. As I have said before, the XTS is the only car in its class to have a full livery upfit programme. The CT6 nor the Conti have such a thing. That alone accounts for 10-16% of monthly XTS volume.
The comparison of the XTS the CT6 is in size only. The cars are substantially different, starting with price.
Continental is all over Avis lots. Half the new limos in Vegas are Conti. The other half are XTS. The MGM’s XTS limo looks much more rad, in my opinion.
Source: Just got back from Vegas.
Also, Escalades everywhere for livery in SoCal and Vegas. CT6 is everywhere for livery as well in SoCal. In fact, if you drive from LA to Vegas on the 15 freeway, most often you’ll see CT6’s as livery transporting. I don’t see where you think XTS is the livery queen. It’s becoming far and few on these streets near me for that service.
Also one one more thing, the comparison to the CT6 and XTS is absolutely necessary. People browsing the Cadillac dealership lots wanting a classic large sedan will always cross-shop the two. XTS wins more than not. What they want, is a flashy smooth boulevard cruiser that embodies what they know Cadillac used to mean. Cadillac still has that persona.
I think the two are equal in looks now and with the new V-Sport XTS, it’s the slickest looking Cadillac, bar none; blacked out grill and all.
Anecdotally I’ve seen the XTS win out in every instance. Oddly the XTS is more expensive to lease than the CT6, too; by almost a hundred bucks.
Why is the CT6 always gettin the reputation as an under performer when it is the number 2 seller in it’s segment? True it has a ways to go to catch the S Class but so do the others and you don’t hear about them being called under performers. I agree the CT6 has catching up to do in other areas other than sales, but it’s not doing too bad despite it’s short comings. Hopefully the refresh will address some ( hopefully all of them ) those short coming. Ok to be honest I don’t think the refresh will correct all of the short comings, but hopefully the next generation will.
What “segment” is CT6 in that it’s the number 2 seller? It appears to me that it’s in a segment of its own. Below the Mercedes Benz S-class segment, maybe above the Lincoln Continental segment (maybe).
It was put in the catagory of full size Luxury cars on rear drive platforms by the person who wrote the artical. I am just saying if that is where they are going tom place it, it is not doing too bad. I did state that it had short comings. Being in a class of its own or being an in betweener could very well be one of those short comings. Never the less that is where they placed it and that is the references I am using to say it is not doing too bad.
If the category is “full size RWD luxury cars” then might as well include the Chrysler 300, which sold 2320 units in the US in January, which would put the CT6 in 3rd place. But it’s phony to make RWD some sort of “luxury” distinction, as only the “performance nuts” think RWD is a luxury feature. Also that list is inconsistent, since the A8 is on a FWD platform.
One way to look at the “segment” is to look at the price. Here are the starting prices of the cars compared in the article:
Cadillac CT6: $55k
MB S-class: $89k
BMW 7 series: $83k
Audi A8: $82k
Lexus LS: $75k
Genesis G90: $68k
And for the “other” cars added to the article (as FWD)
Cadillac XTS: $46k
Lincoln Continental: $45k
Acura RLX: $55k
If the starting price of a CT6 was $75k or above, then I would consider it in the “segment” that it supposedly belongs to for this article. Although then you still have to look into specs, features, and average selling prices for each model (including rebates).
The reality is that the CT6 is by far Cadillac’s worst-selling sedan since WWII, comparing the first full calendar year of sales (which was 2017 for the CT6) to other first full calendar years of sales. Now part of that could be attributed to it being Cadillac’s most expensive sedan also, but it’s not nearly expensive enough to be considered with the “big 4” entries (MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus) or even the Genesis entry. Plus its a Cadillac. The brand name still carries some weight in the US and it still has a large number of dealers, thanks to the legacy of having been the #1 selling luxury brand in the US for 5 decades until 1999. So it’s not like Genesis with a far smaller dealer base and far lower brand recognition.
So do you compare cars based on Cost or performance numbers?
Drew – the distinction between FWD and RWD is one that is vital for the purpose of reporting and clarity of information.
The FWD-based premium full-size sedans are notably less expensive, a primary reason for them selling in higher quantities.
The RWD-based luxury full-size sedans are notably more expensive.
That’s that. Moving along…
The Chrysler 300 is in the same category of the Impala. It’s a full-size RWD sedan that is NOT a luxury car. If we followed your ill-advised logic, we would have to think like this:
– Criterial 1: size and body type (full-size and sedan)
– Criteria 2: drive wheels (front-drive vs. rear-drive)
If you think using ONLY those two criteria, you make the mistake of omitting the third criteria: class (mainstream vs. premium vs. luxury) – which impacts features, content, equipment, warranty, refinement and ultimately price. Using that line of thinking, we should also group the Impala, LaCrosse, Taurus, Azera, Cadenza and Avalon in the same class as the XTS and Conti, right? Of course not – the former cars are in totally different class(es) than the latter two.
Lastly: I clarified the Audi A8 positioning for you in the past, but I guess I have to do it again now. The car might be based on a chassis that somewhere long ago had a front-drive origin… but it is sold exclusively (that’s key) in the quattro AWD configuration, with 60-70 percent of the power sent to the rear wheels via the gen 3 quattro system. So it feels, drives, behaves, etc. like a rear-drive car. It also commands the price of a rear-drive full-size lux sedan. Hopefully that clears things up for you.
Alex Luft – so RWD is more “luxury” because it costs more than FWD? What about the “luxury” of more legroom with FWD? What about the “luxury” of not slipping and sliding in the snow with FWD vs RWD?
If merely costing more makes a car more luxury, then customers should all opt for gold plated engines, exhaust systems, wiring, etc. Maybe some big shiny hunks of gold in the interior too, instead of real wood.
As to the Audi A8, yes it’s AWD but it is FWD based. Whatever it is, it’s not RWD. You can’t have the same “fun” of spinning out at 90 mph in AWD that you apparently have in RWD. So no, the A8 does not qualify as RWD in any form.
Alex Luft, you have a funny habit – I actually enjoy it but it’s something you might want to think about. Whenever you disagree with someone, you present your side of things, that’s fine and helpful. But then when the same issue comes up again, you tell us that you’ve already educated everyone on this topic. As if your opinion has been accepted as the only possible explanation, because its yours, and you’ve already stated it. Watch out if you get married, because merely stating your view does not mean that your opinion is the only valid one, or that the other person has come to your way of thinking as soon as they hear your opinion.
Oh Drew. You’re a hoot, but continue to be wrong. It’s quite entertaining yet sad at the same time.
To address your comment:
1. “so RWD is more “luxury” because it costs more than FWD? What about the “luxury” of more legroom with FWD? What about the “luxury” of not slipping and sliding in the snow with FWD vs RWD?”
That’s not a distinction that I made, so you don’t need to challenge me about it. Instead, this is a distinction that simply exists in the market. The most expensive and prestigious cars today are rear drive or rear-drive based AWD. You can argue about room or whatever other factors all you want, but rear-drive full-sizer luxury cars have plenty of it.
2. “As to the Audi A8, yes it’s AWD but it is FWD based. Whatever it is, it’s not RWD. You can’t have the same “fun” of spinning out at 90 mph in AWD that you apparently have in RWD. So no, the A8 does not qualify as RWD in any form.”
The idea of “spinning out at 90 mph” is only something that you continue to push in your comments… but in reality it has nothing to do with that. It’s about achieving that perfect balance of vehicle dynamics, which you simply can’t achieve with a nose-heavy rear-drive car.
I drove an A8L for 6 months… it’s for all intents and purposes a rear-drive car. It’s very different from a front-drive car, starting with its powertrain configuration. Have you driven the A8? Have you driven any of the cars in this class. I believe the answer is no.
So until you have some experience with the products in question and study said products in depth, you really have no leg to stand on. All you are doing is sharing an opinion that is backed by very little substance. But hey, everyone has an opinion, especially today.
3. Though I didn’t ask for it, thank you so much for the life advice. I’ll be sure to take it under advisement. I do wonder – is giving life advice to people you have never met something you do on the regular, or am I an exception? Because you have me feeling so special!
4. Perhaps it is you who should heed your own advice and listen to those who disagree with you about the topic at hand. In contrast to you, those who disagree with your baseless opinions actually know what they’re talking about… but all you do is refuse to accept or consider an opinion that’s different from yours, despite the fact that you have zero (or close to zero) knowledge or experience on the topic.
I recommend educating yourself by first driving the cars in question… then doing at least some brief analysis on their purchase considerations, and only then discussing the topic. That way, we can talk in an educated manner. Until then, your comments are simply outdated opinions based on some perception about luxury cars that you developed a decade or two ago.
Alex Luft, thanks for the thorough response. In reply:
1. If RWD defines the segment, and the proof is that the segment is about cost – then how is a car that starts at $55k in the same segment as cars that start at $89k, $83k, $82k, $75k, and $68k? Again, if it’s just about RWD, size, and a stated category of “luxury” then then Chrysler 300 fits too. I’m not saying that it does, but that case can be made. The top of the line CT6 may be very nice, but to truly “compete” they need to remove those cheap base models and thus raise the minimum price on the basis of content. At that point perhaps sales numbers can be compared.
2. The reality is that 85% of luxury car drivers experience no difference between RWD and FWD on dry pavement. You might personally like the way the alleged “balance” feels when you push the car, but that’s not how most people drive and/or perceive their driving. They do notice however when they slide around in snow. Perhaps you’ve never experienced driving in the snow.
3. You’ve been plenty full of “life advice” yourself. You keep telling me that I should imagine myself at a GM/Cadillac corporate meeting, and I need to listen to people who are all in agreement with each other, absorbing it all for years, before speaking forth. If Cadillac is as antagonistic toward contrarian ideas as you are, no wonder they’ve fallen from 1st place in the US luxury market to about 6th or 7th now.
On the other hand, I offer my views but I don’t imagine that once stated, I’ve suddenly “educated” everyone here to proper thinking. You act as if it’s a burden for you to keep “explaining” your version of reality, and can’t understand why anyone would continue to have a different opinion, once you’ve given them your view. Is this normal for GM? Sounds like an insular corporate culture closed to outside opinions, including those of the actual customers.
4. I’m sure I have a lot more life experience than you have, but I don’t hold it above you or others as a trump card that says “therefore my opinion is more worthy than yours”. I feel that all opinions are worthy of being heard and considered. That’s all I expect here, be open to an opinion even if it’s not what you hear at insular GM. Unless of course sales and profits are through the roof at GM, then I wouldn’t blame you or anyone else for not being open to outside views.
I do have experience driving or riding in most of the autos and brands in question. However, I don’t make a habit of test-driving cars that I have no interest in buying, since I feel it would be unfair to waste the sales person’s time in that way. So in some cases yes I do rely on write-ups from professional car testers, such as JD Power regarding the CT6. As well as the test-drive reports of the general public, which are freely available on the internet.
As to actual sales numbers, those are fact. The CT6 sold 10,542 units in 2017, the first full calendar year of sales. You can spin that any way you want, but the reality is that its Cadillacs worst first full year sedan sales number, by a wide margin. You might not think Cadillac still has a good name with buyers, yet it still is a good name for a lot of people. The people who don’t like the name don’t need to buy it, but as long as a lot of people think its a good name, there are plenty of potential sales. Cadillac also has a huge dealer network. For Cadillac to sell only 10.5k units of a new, flagship sedan is unprecedented. Unprecedentedly bad. Regardless of the car’s merits, it didn’t sell well for a new Cadillac model starting at $55k. Spin that as you wish.
If the car is slipping and sliding then that means the driver is not very good at well driving a car! Regardless of which wheels drive the car
“If the car is slipping and sliding then that means the driver is not very good at well driving a car! Regardless of which wheels drive the car”
Brian, with that kind of thinking, I wonder if you are a Cadillac executive. Blame the customer if their car slips and slides in the snow, they are not a worthy driver! I’m pretty sure that the market for all drivers is a lot bigger than the market limited to “very good” drivers.
But what the heck, maybe Cadillac should stop making automatic transmissions. If you can’t drive a manual transmission, you aren’t a very good driver. Everyone knows manual is better than automatic. Plus the Germans love them. If JdN wants to truly make all Cadillacs “drivers cars” (as he claims), go all manual gear shifting. Who cares about those darn automatic-reliant customers, let ’em learn to drive, or buy something else!
I don’t understand why people can wait for the process to be completed. Cadillac is restructuring restructuring their line up and people can’t wait for it to be complete!
Drew, I like driving stick on open road. It’s not fun in bumper to bumper traffic. Best of both worlds Is one of each.
Brian wrote: “I don’t understand why people can wait for the process to be completed. Cadillac is restructuring restructuring their line up and people can’t wait for it to be complete!”
What I don’t understand is why some people are so gullible to “trust the process”. Why do so many want to trust some random “Johan” who claims he can make Cadillac great again? How long do you think it will take? I believe JdN has said it might take as long as 15 years, which would be 2029. Melody Lee has likewise said “15 years”, though she seems to say it every year, as if the target gets moved back every year. Meanwhile she gets great pay and lavish perks for herself. Not bad for an “International Affairs” major, whatever that is.
I’m not saying JdN is a con-artist, but the easiest way to scam people is to make promises far off in the future, while collecting their money right now. Think of “Professor Harold Hill” in “The Music Man”. He promised that his music students would learn to play well, effectively telling their parents to just “trust the process”. Then he would skip out of town before they realized they’d been scammed, that the process was merely a way to separate them from some money.
So what is JdN’s magic process anyway? He’s obviously got the same generic game-plan that he started to use at Infiniti. He wisely left after only 2 years there.
The generic plan is:
1. move the HQ (Tokyo to Hong Kong, Detroit to NYC)
2. Rename all the cars (Q for sedans and coupes, QX for SUVs/CUVs; CT for sedans and coupes, XT for SUVs/CUVs)
3. Copy the Germans, with the goal of making your brand “The BMW of..” (Japan, USA).
Wow, inspiring. Let’s face it, JdN is a sales/marketing guy. He’s very good at selling… himself. And even though Cadillac sales plummeted massively last year, he’s got answers (or excuses). Trust the process. I need another 12 years. No pain no gain. Rome wasn’t built in a day. We only want our cars in the “right driveways”. Those grapes must have been sour. The sun was in my eyes.
Personally I’d rather have someone who understands and appreciates why Cadillac was so successful in the USA for so long, what the brand means to Americans. Not just some generic plan to build cars that might be right for short trips on the Autobahn, or fast track times on the Nurburgring Nordschliefe, but someone who wants to continue and upgrade the Cadillac brand, not throw it all out and remake it as a BMW clone.
Actually Cadillac has been trying to imitate the Germans for over 35 years now, with disastrous results (Cimarron, V8-6-4, Catera, ATS, etc). That all predates JdN. What I can’t understand though is why people think JdN is going to succeed with the “just copy the Germans” strategy; that another 15 years is going to accomplish what the first 35 couldn’t. Imagine if Cadillac had stayed true to their own values, rather than wrecking the brand with the “copy the Germans” strategy.
Why will what failed for 35 years suddenly work (well in 15, make that 12 years now). Because he’s JdN! He was in the right place at the right time, when Audi of Germany was coming out with good product, and German luxury sedans were becoming faddish with the American public. Nothing succeeds like being in the right place at the right time. I commend JdN for his salesmanship. But I don’t see him as any sort of visionary.
Trust the process. Keep on trusting it. I’ve seen this show before, in real business situations. The longer you can extend “the future”, the more paychecks you can collect along the way. Again, I’m not saying JdN is a charlatan (maybe he really believes he has the magic formula), but don’t be too surprised in 12 years (or is it still 15 away). It didn’t have to be this way for Cadillac, putting so much trust in a random Johan from South Africa and his generic plan. I realize he doesn’t know what Cadillac means to Americans, but it’s sad to see an icon destroyed like this. Yet some people will cheer him on anyway, trusting his “process”, until they don’t.
Drew, I agree that maintaining blind trust in the process would be naive. Cadillac may yet fail. I do know that like it or not German luxury has become the global automotive benchmark just as Silicon Valley is seen as the world’s technological apex. Just as Italy sets the standard for suits.
GM has poured boundless resources into the brand since 1999 with Alpha and Omega emerging just as the sedan slip was set to begin. Opel’s loss tally is nearly as high as Cadillac R&D.
Can Cadillac be saved? I’m well below 50 and not one of my friends dream to Dare Greatly. Would GM have been wiser going to Lincoln route–a fluffed up Ford resting on retro laurels? Can any of GM’s high quality brands ever regain full luster? Chevrolet now tops Toyota with JD Power but buying habits take decades to change.
I read an analyst estimate Cadillac as a 20 billion dollar brand and winced. I have little hope for the future SUV line up as Buick Avenir has quite a few of the bases covered and this may cause Cadillac consumers to flinch, suffer sticker shock.
I see Cadillac’s best hope as the production of Tesla beating EVs. Something on par with the fantastic Lucid Air concept. This move might allow for Alpha and Omega to migrate down to to Buick.
Then again none of us know nothing of GMs true future plans.
Thank you Steve, I’m glad to see that someone thinks it’s naive to put blind trust in some Johan who happened to be the marketing guy for Audi USA, at a time when the German luxury car fad was taking hold, and Audi Germany was putting out some new, good product. What gets me are the people who think Johan was somehow the great maestro of Audi who resulted in doubling US sales. Or that he has a plan specific to Cadillac, when he started to use the same plan at Infiniti for 2 years before leaving.
As far as German luxury cars being like Italian suits, I don’t think so. More like Nehru suits. Popular now, but not necessarily in the future. It would be sad to see Cadillac continue to chase German-like luxury cars, only to find out that the world craves real Cadillacs once Johan’s work is complete. I’ve seen trends come and go. Such as the whitewall tire craze – at one point you could hardly get tires that didn’t have whitewalls. Now they’d be pretty hard to find.
Germans do well with their “sport luxury” cars but Cadillac built their brand on luxury “cruisers”. And realistically, luxury cruisers make much more sense for the majority of luxury car buyers, than the cramped hard-ricing sports-luxury ones. German cars are designed for short trips on the Autobahn, but they don’t make a lot of sense for long American highway rides, or daily commutes on potholed roads. Eventually the public will figure this out, but a little salesmanship wouldn’t hurt to nudge them in the right direction. Too bad Cadillac is going the opposite way.
I also hate that Johan plans to eliminate Cadillac’s classic angular styling, and replace it with Eurobland soft rounding. Not to mention he favors the German approach of gee-whiz engine and transmission over-engineering rather than classic Cadillac refinement and reliability.
But Johan is not American, did not grow up with Cadillac. He doesn’t “get” Cadillac, but that’s understandable, given his background as a German-car loving guy. What is strange is that Barra thinks it’s just fine to let him destroy the brand and remake it as a me-too Euro-clone. The market just isn’t that big for German-like cars, and people who truly do like them are going to want the real German deal, not some imitation.
Drew, Cadillac has been a damaged brand for a generation long dead since the 1980s, and a damaged brand not earning much money since the 90s.
German has been the global auto benchmark since the 80s and has grown in popularity since. 40 years is more than a Nehru collar.
Cadillac has little to loose. Buick will continue for people looking for the American style traits you mention.
The Cadillac you grew up with has lost all meaning. Gen X and Millennials just don’t feel the connection you do. This has happened to every GM brand, Chevrolet not selling on the coasts.
Steve, thanks for the response, you make many good points. Here’s the thing, even if German luxury cars continue to be highly popular with the US public, and even if Cadillac matches the Germans ride for ride, feature for feature, quality for quality, and look for look – there’s a good chance that Cadillac will never be viewed as a “German” car, and people who want German-type cars will go for the actual German ones. Furthermore, if Cadillac has to wait to see what the Germans are doing before copying them, they’ll always be a (car) generation behind. So Cadillac might become great at perfecting the prior generation of German cars, not exactly a big selling point.
Also, not every American driver likes German-style luxury cars. Not even every German likes them. Cadillac has the opportunity to build something else, a luxury car that is truly modern but has a different ride than German cars, a different look than German cars, and an emphasis on roominess, refinement, and reliability that the Germans don’t have. It may not matter to Millennials that these traits were once prized by Americans who made Cadillac number 1 in the USA. But those are traits that can be advertised to the public once again, rather than saying “We copied the Germans, one generation behind”. It will be offering the public an alternative, rather than building the same car as everybody else.
Two of the best tv Cadillac commercials I’ve seen are “Breakthrough” and “Roll”. Both of them linked modern Cadillacs to Cadillacs of the past. These are commercials that make people feel good about Cadillac brand history, rather than being embarrassed by it. Much better than the commercial showing 3 ditzy young women in a rainstorm inside their XT5. And much better than pretending that Cadillac is some new brand with no past.
As to the supposed “bad reputation” of Cadillac stemming from the 80’s and 90’s – if the Millennials don’t remember Cadillac’s glory years, then they probably don’t remember the missteps of the 80’s and 90’s either. So it’s time to connect with the gIory past, skipping over the missteps of the 80’s and 90’s. Ironically, it was an attempt to “fend off” the Germans by imitating them that led to the disasters of the 80’s and 90’s. The Cimmarron of the early 80’s was Cadillac’s attempt to compete with the little BMW 3 series. It was clearly not a real Cadillac and severely hurt the brand. The V8-6-4 engine was Cadillac’s attempt to yield the high gas milage of the imports, while still offering strong Cadillac power. It didn’t work well, further hurting the brand.
Then in the late 90’s Cadillac tried to be so German that they simply put a Cadillac badge on a German designed, German engineered, and even German built car, the Catera. This car was ugly, didn’t have the plush roomy ride of a Cadillac, had German unreliability issues – and was not loved by Americans. The greatest irony here was that the Catera disaster drove people to buy German-badged cars, perhaps not realizing that the Catera itself was a German car. If only Cadillac had stayed true to itself, it could have avoided the reputation damaging moves of the 80’s and 90’s.
So now GM has hired a South African named Johan to run Cadillac. A guy who grew up thinking German cars were the best, and knowing nothing about Cadillac. It’s clear that he wants to go even further than before in imitating the Germans. He even wants to change the angular styling to German rounding. He doesn’t “get” Cadillac, and that’s understandable, given his history/background.
But I don’t think Cadillac will succeed with a me-too copying scheme, rather than taking a bold leadership position that offers a different type, and different looking luxury car than the Germans. One which is proudly connected to their past rather than embarrassed by it. Unfortunately, that’s not the way GM has chosen to go.
As to Buick, no thanks. They already have the Euro-bloat rounded look (that Johan plans to put on Cadillac), not to mention the rear-headroom robbing “swept” design, not roomy like classic Cadillacs. Buick has never been an appealing brand, just the middle ground for GM, about on a par with their now-deceased Oldsmobile. Buicks don’t look like Cadillacs, they don’t ride like Cadillacs; they are what we thought they were, a boring mid-sized, mid-level brand, not America’s best and boldest luxury cruisers.
Alex, the Chrysler 300 may not be your idea of luxury, but it’s often called a luxury car. And it’s RWD, for whatever that’s worth. It is a lot cheaper than a CT6, but then a CT6 is a lot cheaper than an S-Class, a 7-series, an A8, and an LS. The difference in starting price between the 300 and the CT6 is roughly the same as the starting price difference between the CT6 and the S-Class.
So maybe the CT6 could be viewed as being in a “segment” (if you like those) between the 300 and the S-Class. But if the 300 is not in the same segment as the CT6, it’s hard to make the case that the CT6 is in the same segment as the S-Class. It seems to me that you want to cherry-pick a “segment” for the CT6 so that it appears to be a success.
The reality is that for a new Cadillac sedan – 2017 being the first full calendar year of CT6 availability – CT6 sales were historically very weak. Check out the history of other Cadillac sedans in their first full calendar year of sales, since WWII. The 1993-96 Fleetwood for example was full-sized, RWD, luxury, and did about 3x the first full year sales of the CT6 (despite a smaller and less-wealthy US population then). The DTS was of course FWD, but it did about 5x the sales of the CT6 when comparing first full calendar years of sales. It’s fun to pretend that Cadillac under Johan is hitting on all cylinders, but then there’s reality.
It is not and has never been about “my idea of luxury”. That’s not what this is about. But if you want to put the Chrysler 300 in the same class as the CT6, S-Class, etc., go right ahead. Add in the Dodge Charger while you’re at it. I’ll leave you to play that game in your own sandbox.
I just realized this and it all makes sense now: you’re arguing this point because you have zero experience with the cars in question. If you had any clue, or had you actually driven them, your take would be quite different.
Furthermore, had you actually driven these products, you would understand the essence of each model. You can’t get a good grasp of this concept just by looking at pictures or spec sheets of a model on the web… instead, you have to spend some time with them. Working in the industry also helps, but that’s something else you’ve never done.
The essence of the CT6 has S-Class and 7er written all over it. The fact that it is priced lower (something that will likely change for the 2019 MY) is either a problem of product planning and/or of brand equity, or the advantage of a strategy. We don’t know. But I don’t expect you to understand things at this level, so I’ll just leave it at that.
It’s funny how you keep ragging on JdN… but in reality the CT6 wasn’t his product, developed under his strategy or vision. He arrived right when it was already launching. More importantly, it’s such a shame that you feel the need to introduce fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) into a conversation, just to smear anyone and everyone (like JdN) who does not share your woefully ill-founded opinions.
And you’re trying to hard to try to convince everyone that the the CT6 is a commercial failure, but what you fail to understand the actual strategy behind the vehicle and GM/Cadillac as an organization, something that continues to show your utter lack of understanding of the business, the industry, or the market.
To educate you: the CT6 launched and is sold at a time when 1) Cadillac as a brand is extremely weak (in part thanks to cars like your beloved DTS), 2) sedan sales are way down industry-wide, 3) GM has drastically reduced sales to daily rental fleets, 4) GM/Cadillac incentives are controlled much more tightly than ever before in history, and 5) the CT6 facing internal competition from the cheaper XTS. And then there’s the most important factor – GM’s go to market strategy has been flipped on its head in the 2016-2017 timeframe – the years that launched the CT6. They’re not going after all-out production or sales volume any more. This is key. That reality that you speak of? This is it.
I’m sure you’ll do your best to come up with more sightless, ill-conceived reasons not to accept any of those facts as the reality that they are… and instead continuing to compare sales of apples (CT6 sales in 2016) to watermelons (Fleetwood sales in 1993). Next, you’ll compare sales of the Ford Model T in 1920 to the Focus in 2016.
Alex, JdN wasn’t involved with the CT6 through its entire development, but he had a lot of input on the final product. He’s been Cadillac’s president since August 2014. He gave the CT6 its name. He must have initiated or approved the pricing and content strategy. He must have approved the marketing (or lack thereof). He’s a marketing guy after all, that’s supposed to be his strength.
Maybe Johan was more focused on moving the HQ to NYC than he should have been, who knows. He might not be the biological father of the CT6, but he’s the step-father and had a hand in shaping the outcome. I’m pretty sure he could have nixed the idea of offering a cheap base version with 2.0 engine, if he’d wanted. Again that’s a marketing thing, not an engineering one, but as a marketing guy he should have done better. Not to mention at least giving it a more inspiring number than 6. Be seeing you!
As someone who actually worked at GM when these events were taking place, I have a first-hand perspective on what took place… and let me tell you – you’re way off in your comment, again.
1. JdN’s hire date is summer 2014.
2. The CT6 went on sale in early 2016 (February/March 2016)
3. Most of the CT6 was already locked as a product 12-14 months before its launch.
This puts us at November 2014 – January 2015 as to when the product was already locked (meaning development work was completed and the car was being brought to market – parts, suppliers, production, marketing, etc. were all being worked through). As such, JdN had from August 2014 to November 2014 to make any changes to the CT6 as a product, which is an extremely limited amount of time that could only result in minimal changes.
To illustrate this: the suppliers have already been chosen, contracts for the product have been signed, investment for assembly and logistics have already been made and were already being implemented. The train was already rolling… and JdN’s impact on CT6 could only have been null or minimal. It’s reality in the world of developing cars and bringing them to market. I wouldn’t expect you to know this, since you have never worked in the industry and have zero experience in the matter… but I at least would expect you to understand it.
“Nixing” the 2.0L engine when it was already baked into the business case for the product would not have been possible without delaying the entire product by another 6-12 months in order to to restructure the entire business case (production costs in labor and materials, supplier contracts, and the overall strategy for the car). So it wasn’t realistic. Again, the train had already left the building at this point.
Furthermore, early plans to change Cadillac’s vehicle naming nomenclature and move its head office to New York were already well underway prior to JdN coming on board. These weren’t his ideas.
So, those are the facts, which you can corroborate with publicly-available information and interviews. You’re welcome for setting the facts straight.
Ultimately, JdN is not the problem at Cadillac. He is a breath of fresh air. Now, I’m not singing his praises yet I’m not criticizing him either, since I understand his position. More importantly, we have nothing on which to make our assessment of his work or leadership just yet. If nothing else, he brought much-needed new blood to the brand that was on a path to nothingness… especially as it relates to Cadillac dealers and the sales processes. Before him, Cadillac sales ops were being treated like any other high-volume/mainstream GM brand (Chevy)… and he changed this and continues to change it.. and that says nothing about the product, which we have yet to see.
We have gone over this multiple times. In fact, myself and many others have outlined this already to you and it is fact. Yet your stubborn stupor prohibits you from understanding it. That’s why it’s so frustrating to discuss these topics with you – one tells you facts, and you come back with opinion, conjecture, guesstimates, and guesses… having not spent a single day working in this industry.
I’m sure now you will reply with a life lesson… which I am not interested in hearing… so I’ll just leave it here.
Alex, things aren’t going as you planned when you first considered writing the blog, huh? Didn’t expect more irrational opinion, hysteria and “fake news” than the Alex Jones site when you first began? 😉
“Fake news”, really Steve? JdN moved Audi USA HQ from Detroit to Reston, VA. Then he moved Infiniti global HQ from Tokyo to Hong Kong. The Cadillac move from Detroit to NYC has JdN written all over it.
And in fact, the announcement to move to NYC was made in September 2014, after JdN had come aboard as Cadillac president. From the “Detroit News”, September 23, 2014:
“GM executives, including CEO Mary Barra and President Dan Ammann, have given de Nysschen authority to move to New York and reorganize the way Cadillac runs and operates.”
And from that same article:
“We are creating Cadillac as a very clear division, with a very clearly defined boundary, and it will be far more self-sufficient and autonomous than what has been the case before,” de Nysschen said. ”
Also from that Detroit News article:
“This is not the first time one of Detroit’s Big Three has sought a new location as a means to jump-start a brand. In 1998, Ford Motor Co. announced it would move the headquarters for Lincoln and Mercury to trend-setting southern California. But that was short-lived. Ford in 2002 said it was moving Lincoln-Mercury headquarters back to Dearborn.”
Show me where Cadillac said it was going to move to NYC, before they named JdN president. All the announcement I see are from late September of 2014.
As to my comment that the CT6 was named by JdN, is that “fake news” too? Isn’t that his own naming scheme? He’s the guy after all who decided to rename all the Infiniti models so that they start with Q, QX for SUV/CUVs, just plain Q for the sedans and coupes. Sound familiar?
The CT(number) and XT(number) naming is straight out of the JdN playbook. Why 6 for the Cadillac supposedly in the “same segment” as 7-series, A8, G90? Who likes to be told that they are number 6? (My nod to Patrick McGoohan).
So now we are down to whether or not the CT6 could have been offered without the 2.0 engine. That engine was already being used in the Malibu, the Regal, the ATS, and the CTS when JdN joined Cadillac. I’m not buying the “parts were ordered” excuse. It’s not as if this is a unique engine to the CT6.
Also, production on the CT6 didn’t begin until 16-17 months after JDN became Cadillac president. So it’s a matter of opinion between Alex and myself as to whether the 2.0 could have been nixed for the CT6. I believe it could have been (I did write “I’m pretty sure”), Alex thinks otherwise, but that’s opinion, not “fake news”.
I would classify the 300 as “Premium Rental”, not sure what category that falls under, but its not the same as the CT6.
I just finishing going down this thread and up-voting every single Drew comment, because he deserves it.
He’s a contrarian to today’s popular auto-journalist viewpoints, but I think he’s more than just looking at things at an not-so popular perspective – he’s correct.
Anyhow, the CT6 is a fine automobile and the journalist love it, but it’s not in the same class as the S-Class, at all. It’s not only the price difference however – the S-Class is all about effortless comfort. Give me a revised smooth riding XTS with added back seat amenities any day over the current CT6, for this job. GM needs to wake up, make it happen.
Thanks Yoshiaki, good to have you back commenting here. I know that you appreciate the roomy, nice riding Cadillacs more than the ones that put “handling” at the expense of ride quality. And I believe there are a lot more Cadillac customers or potential customers who feel that way.
The current view at Cadillac is that they have to make every car a “sports driving” car, because that’s what the Germans do. That’s not Cadillac’s history, not what made them the #1 selling luxury car in the USA. And that market is already filled by the German cars. It’s sad to me that Cadillac wants to ignore its own proud history of bold angular styling, roomy comfortable ride, up-to-date electronics, refinement and reliability – all in order to become a generic “me too” German-wannabe brand.
I can see how this well end – pretty much the same way it’s been going ever since Cadillac decided to stop being Cadillac in the early 1980s, in order to imitate the Germans. The Cimarron, the V8-6-4, the Catera – all were disasters that resulted from not being Cadillac and imitating the Germans. The trend continues now with the weak-selling Germanized sedans, the ATS, CTS, CT6. The last sedan even remotely like a Cadillac, the XTS, outsells all the others – therefore it must be killed.
It’s like when Coca-cola decided to imitate Pepsi and come out with “New Coke” (tastes more like Pepsi), even though Coca-cola was #1. At least Coca-cola had the good sense to quickly switch back to the original. Cadillac has been falling hard in market share ever since they started imitating the Germans – from #1 to #5 by 2016 and probably #6 now.
The answer from Cadillac – be even more like the Germans. And when someone challenges their thinking on this, they would just like that person to shut up. That doesn’t sell cars. Blame the customers, great move. If Cadillac were selling well and making big profits, they could well afford to tell people to shut up. At this point however, it might be smart of them to at least listen to the actual customers.
Chrysler 300 is my favorite rental, I love it! Don’t go there. It is better than any Lincoln.
In ways it’s better than the CT6 let alone Lincoln. Give me a 300 with Hemi V8 and chrome rear view mirrors for extra cool points any day over the anemic CT6.
The CT6 is popular because it photographs well.
Yes, I finally have a Chrysler ally! 300 may be old but I love this car. This is my uncool secret.
I feel ill when I hear Lincoln praised when 300 offers such a comfortable driving experience and sharp look.
I still like CT6 wins on styling and handling but with that FCA would build a new evolved 300 on Guilia for 2020.
Is the new line up of cars out? No! Then why is it a bad thing to wait the process out.
When the new cars come out they will be the best cars released by Cadillac. But you want them now
Despite all the naysayers of the CT6 it has pretty much remained in 2nd place despite the BMW 7 series being a relatively new model as well.
BMW came out swinging with the 7 series with all kinds of engineering and techy stuff and it still isn’t selling better than the CT6.
Save for the absence of a V8, the CT6 doesn’t come up short in this segment except for length. And being a bit over 2 inches shorter in length than the S Class does not displace it. What, because is doesn’t come with an elbow warming arm rest is why it shouldn’t be in this class!!!???
Well engineered chassis, presence, luxury appointments. One shouldn’t allow inherent bias to cloud sound judgement.
Yep so because MB is #1 in it’s segment means Cadillac can’t compete…
BTW the next Continental will be rwd on Ford’s CD6 platform, even Ford got the hint. Looks like all you big fwd lose..um lovers gonna get use to Carmax soon, lol.
This just in – the ad agency partner for Cadillac is now the global agency for Mercedes-Benz … how’s that work?
A “prestige” entry in the class? Really? Most of the CT6s on the local Caddy dealer’s lot have the sorry, 2.0T that powers Chevys, and about every other GM brand brand around the planet. There is no prestige in driving a luxurious premium car with a leaky, noisy and rough 4 banger, even if it has good power. My old ATS was a great car, save for the 2.0T, but I learned my lesson. My neighbor bought a CTS with the 2.0 despite my warnings, and he hates it.
Interesting that every German car in this segment is available with a 2.0L turbo in Europe… but when Cadillac offers it in the US, it’s all of a sudden “leaky, noisy, and rough”.
The LTG (the engine in question) is far from perfect… and its refinement is a peg or two below those of the Germans’ 2.0L turbo engines. But let’s not go overboard on the hyperbole. Even then, it’s a done deal for the 2019 MY CT6.
Why is it always ok for an American brand to do what the Germans do? Do you understand American cars and Cadillac history? Real American cars, real Cadillacs – offer V8s not four cylinders. Sure the Germans offer four cylinders, as well as noisy, smoky diesels – let them do it, but there’s no reason to outright copy them. If there’s nothing to differentiate Cadillac from the Germans, then why should Cadillac even exist? You want a German car? Go ahead and buy one!
Put a vinyl top and a connie kit on something so you can feel at home……..
Oh jeez. We’ve been over this over and over and over again. Even so, I’ll oblige.
It’s not about being “ok” to do what the Germans or “copying” the Germans. It’s the fact that the Germans have figured out the formula for the modern luxury car. The sweet spot of the market is the German luxury car. That’s why they dominate in terms of sales in every market they compete in, whether it’s the Americas, Asia, Europe, Russia, and even Africa. That’s why German luxury cars are a desirable product and are generally accepted as the standard of the class. Meanwhile, the likes of Cadillac and Lincoln were slow to adopt the formula… peddling rebadged Chevys and Fords and resting on their laurels.
Now, nobody is suggesting that Cadillac doesn’t differentiate itself. This is where you continue to not get it. Cadillac should differentiate itself. But it needs to differentiate itself in the right areas. Trying to sell apples when the market is buying bananas is not differentiation… much in the same way that offering land yachts when the market is buying more sporty cars is not differentiation… it’s simply creating a product that is simply not that relevant. And that’s what Cadillac is doing now: it’s creating cars people want to buy.
Drew – you seem to have an unhealthy obsession in hating the word segments, but the reality is that people shop within a segment – whether they know it or not. I have seen the data in my days in the industry. But if you don’t believe me, I welcome you to spent a few hours in a dealership of a luxury brand. That couple who are in middle management and just refinanced their home are looking at the C-Class at the Benz store, while also doing the same at the BMW dealer, the IS at the Lexus dealer, the A4/S4 at the Audi dealer and maybe the Infiniti Q50. Cadillac is becoming part of the conversation, but it’s not part of that conversation as often, because of the weak brand – one that is not as attractive and not as sexy… it doesn’t carry as much class, prestige, impact or cachet as the others.
So why is Cadillac not part of the purchase considerations today in key segments, despite having good to very good product? Because it fell behind decades ago… roughly in the 80s and 90s, when Cadillac was not much more than a Chevy with some lipstrick. That has hurt the brand, its image, reputation, and desirability immensely.
The solution is to change course and make products that are relevant to market demand, which exists around the car and SUV products offered by the Germans and the Japanese luxury brands, which have now transformed into segments that customers are well aware of. The CTS, ATS and CT6 were good starting points… but it will take a lot more than a generation or two of decent product to change the damage that was done over the last 30 years.
PS: the fact that the CT6 offers (offered?) the 2.0L Turbo while the Germans, Japanese and Koreans did not in their full-size luxury offerings is proof that Cadillac isn’t “copying” anyone.
Times have changed. Big doofy overpowered rides that wallow along are no longer in. Cadillac held onto that profile way past it’s expiration date which led to it’s downfall.
Takes more than a minute to turn around public perception about a brand. Even with a few missteps, they’ve intro’d class competitive rides but missed the mark on the market shift to CUVs.
I’ve seldom seen a CT6 with the 2.0, most of the ones I’ve seen are 3.6 or 3.0TT, base CT6’s are few and far between, even on the Cadillac dealers lot there was one among the 15 or so CT6’s on the lot.
You do know the 2.0 is history in the CT6 for ’19 if not this year.
Just returned from the Chicago Auto Show. Escala on the turntable, wow! The CT6 is also a standout and one of the best looking cars at the show. The Panaray sound system blew me away. The Cadillac personnel promised a V-8 in the near future, but loafers with no socks on the guys New York image thing in the middle of one of the coldest, snowiest winters in a long time didn’t seem wise. The 300 definitely not my idea of luxury.
This thread it just too funny and also the most ridiculous yet. I’m not going to point out everything but some of the things:
1. The Lexus LS 460 was not dying. All of a sudden, people on here think the LS is dying because it sold way less than the prior first three generations. The ’07 LS 460 went up on pricing with little technology when the ’07 S Class came out at the same time. The ’07 S-Class easily outclassed it in every which way from technology, luxury, design and etc. The current LS will continued to be outclass by the competition. Don’t be surprised if the CT6 and G90 outsell the LS 500 this year, same as the competition. The LS modest technology does not match its pricing. I don’t see anything that is a stand-out in the class. The ten speed transmission is nothing to write home about in the LS since the Navigator, Escalade, F150 and Camaro ZL1 already have ten speed transmission at the same time.
2. The Chrysler 300 is a vehicle I considered attainable luxury like the Buick Lacrosse. I could not believe people would put 300 in the same conversation with the CT6. The 300 is a different class of vehicle and the size of it does not match the size of the standard wheelbase models of the premium luxury brands which none of them are not available in the States any longer. I like the 300 too and would like to own one one day, but lets not go there.
3. People on here are not pointing out that the reason, the S Class is leading sales is because they have various models from the standard S Class, AMG V8 & V12, Mercedes Maybach, coupes and convertibles lumped into one under the S Class sales volume each month. A good percentage of S Class sales are sedans no doubt but lets just take none sedan models out of the volume and we can see that the S-Class sedan sales volume is not vastly greater than the CT6. So the S-Class and CT6 is apples to oranges in comparison since we don’t know how the percentage of sedans are form the S Class. Also, the S Class is the only brand in this niche that have various models while the others in the competition solely have sedan.
So anyway, this thread have been hilarious and ridiculous at the same time. We have people on here who never worked at the auto industry all of a sudden predict a nasty future for Cadillac is flat out laughable and ridiculous at the same time. I would not be surprised that someone at Cadillac is reading and laughing at this tread at the same time.
The only thing I can say is that some on here who have various posts of ill-informed opinions don’t have anything better to do with his life and apparently don’t have a life. All of a sudden the ones who never worked at the auto industry, never test driven competitor cars and etc all of a sudden considered being an expert and Internet CEOs who flat-out can’t be taken seriously and reaching more and more and don’t have sense enough to give it a rest because they loved their own opinions too much which a good majority of the posters know better.
Thanks for sharing, Johnls. It’s good to know that only people who have “worked in the auto industry” can have valid opinions about what the public wants in cars. And of course if sales are falling 25% in one year, or if the brand has dropped from #1 to #5 in terms of luxury market share, it’s really ok if the people who “work in the auto industry” say it’s ok.
Likewise, I guess when someone mentions what they like or don’t like seeing on television, their opinion doesn’t matter unless they are in the business of making televisions. Good luck though with saving for that Chrysler 300, hopefully you’ll be able to own one some day. That might be hilarious and ridiculous at the same time, as you say.
Drew, did I struck a nerve?
You can go buy yourself the CT6 which we all know that won’t be the case because you don’t want to waste the sales associates time.
You be better off finding a pre-owned low mileage DTS which will suite you just fine after you accumulate so many miles on your current DTS. Good luck with that.
I still say you can’t be taken seriously of what you say because you never test driven any of the mentioned competitions and go by resources and formed your own opinion as gospel just to rile people up. I have test driven some of the competitors, not all of them and driven just about all of the current models in the Cadillac line-up and my experience of the ride quality is totally different of what you say, who yourself never experience driving any current Cadillac line-up. Just about all the Cadillacs I driven are smooth riders regardless on smooth or broken pavement regardless of their sporty handling. You would never believe people who test driven cars because you love your resources, which you never experience in person, too much and too stubborn to change your perception and ill-advised thinking which is old fashioned.
Every time I read your post, all I read is reruns of assbackwards thinking. You are the only one on here who think is right and everyone on here who is wrong. Continue with your ill-advised post. We all need to continue to laugh sometimes at the most ridiculous stuff you say that is ill-advised of how you think Cadillac should be. This is my last post to you and I have better things to do.
Johnls, you are the one who said you hoped to buy a 300 “some day”. Your words not mine. I could buy a fully loaded CT6 right now, in cash (no financing). I’m not interested in the CT6, partly because I don’t like RWD cars. I’m also not interested in owning a car to show off. I buy what I like, regardless of what others think. I’m comfortable with who i am, rather than feeling a need to project an image via my car.
I’ve driven and ridden in plenty of modern Cadillacs and competing brands. You may think that today’s Cadillacs have great rides, but that’s because you haven’t been in Cadillacs of the past.
Regarding the ride quality of the CT6, that’s been widely reported in the auto press. Do you think that’s a conspiracy against Cadillac? To quote JD Power “Normal, Sport, and Snow/Ice driving modes adjust the car’s response, but even in Normal mode the CT6 feels too taut and stiff. Choose Sport mode and the steering is excessively heavy while the suspension delivers an almost brittle ride quality” .
I’m guessing from your writing style and your inability to afford even a 300, that you must be fairly young, somewhere in your 20’s. That’s fine. But don’t think that what passes for a comfortable ride today, to you, has anything to do with “the Cadillac ride” of the past. It doesn’t. And yet unlike you, I won’t say that I won’t take your opinion seriously. Your opinion is your opinion. You’ve bothered to post your opinion here, and you made a good point about the counting of the S-Class models.
I don’t know if you have “worked in the industry” and I don’t care. Any opinion adds another view, another piece to the puzzle, like the blind men touching the elephant. Pretending to laugh at opinions, or trying to disqualify others simply because they don’t match your own experience, is not wise or helpful to the discussion. You sound a lot like current Cadillac management, wanting to shut out any opinion that doesn’t agree with their strategy. The result of the “Copy the Germans” strategy has been failure for 35+ years, whether you like it or not. Doubling down on a failed strategy does not make sense. But if you don’t want to see anyone challenge the failed and future strategy, by all means don’t read my posts. Or anyone else who doesn’t agree with you.
Regarding the ride quality of the CT6, that’s been widely reported in the auto press. Do you think that’s a conspiracy against Cadillac? To quote JD Power “Normal, Sport, and Snow/Ice driving modes adjust the car’s response, but even in Normal mode the CT6 feels too taut and stiff. Choose Sport mode and the steering is excessively heavy while the suspension delivers an almost brittle ride quality” .
You are wrong! I have driven all of them (ats, cts, ct6, xts) these cars do not drive like you say. They have nice soft in normal mode, and firm in sport mode which is the way it’s suppose to be!
So maybe your bones are just to brittle!
That’s great Brian, so it’s about blaming the customer again? You’d said earlier that if someone had trouble driving a RWD car in the snow, they are not a very good driver. I don’t particularly agree with that, but even if true, I don’t think Cadillac wants to force potential buyers to take a snow-driving test to see if they are worthy of the car.
My bones are not that brittle, but I do appreciate the nice plush “Cadillac Ride”. I thought it was cool even when I was a teenager; you don’t have to be old to enjoy it. Sure you can ride in a modern Cadillac and your back will probably survive, but it’s so much nicer to have a plush smooth “magic carpet” ride vs. a relatively jarring one. The worst ride I’ve ever had was in a tow-truck (not for the DTS), no car has ever been that jarring. I can’t imagine riding in that for 10 hours a day or so like he did. So it’s all relative, but I’m thinking that you’ve never ridden in a car with a really great ride, if you think the rides of today’s Cadillacs are nice and soft in normal mode.
Your assumptions are stupid funny! I have probably driven more different type of cars then you or any other person I know.
I have driven just about every Cadillac made in my life time at some point.
When you say the ride is harsh even in normal mode then I know you are full of it! In the sport mode or higher the ride stiffens up like it should.
As for driving most people have difficulty driving in the snow or rain because they don’t know how to slow down during those conditions. People want to drive 80 mph when it’s 5 degrees and snowing outside!
I grew up driving a old beat up 2wd Chevy C10, I drove that truck all over the country. It didn’t have P/S, P/B, drum brakes all the way around.
Did I ever wreck it because of driving in the snow? Nope! You don’t need fwd or awd to drive in the snow unless it is so deep you car won’t move and that’s a totally different argument.
Hello Brian, I don’t doubt that you are an excellent driver. That wasn’t the point. The thing is, a large number of people have trouble driving in snow with RWD, and it’s silly for Cadillac to say “too bad for them, they aren’t good enough drivers for our cars”. That’s just missing out on sales needlessly.
I am not a bad driver, though I also don’t drive competitively in NASCAR-fashion, that’s just something I don’t want to do. Nor do I think others should do it, and I’ve seen people arrested for it (weaving in and out of traffic at high speed), and I’ve cheered for the police who arrested them. The worst incidents I’ve had on snow were all in RWD cars. One time I did a 720 on a snowy major highway at night. The snow had gotten so bad that the road was actually closed the next day, something rarely done. So maybe blame it on the snow, or me, but I say it was the RWD car (a Torino). The snow was falling but really didn’t seem that bad at that point.
Another time I was driving a Mustang, tires were worn but not bald, got stuck in the snow at a stoplight and had to get pushed out by other drivers. And a few days later I got stuck in a parking lot where I worked, after the snow fell. I had to wait for the snow plows to get out. The same Mustang (with newer tires) even made me do a 180 on WET LEAVES. Never again would I get a RWD car. Plus in winter I would have to put sandbags in the trunk to help the car along, which is ridiculous. And I’ve seen RWD cars with “traction control” have major problems as well, so that’s not the solution that the car guys would tell you. I’ve never had a problem with FWD cars in slippery conditions.
If your C10 was first generation, no wonder you think modern Cadillacs all have nice rides in normal mode. That had to be one of the harder riding vehicles, and you say you went all over the country in it. I think you got numb to riding, and anything else feels great to you. That’s fine but it’s not a normal experience. As for me, I “can take” a harsh ride but I don’t enjoy it, and I certainly don’t want it in a luxury car. I’ve driven rented Chevy Malibus that had better rides than some of the modern Cadillacs I’ve been in, that’s just crazy. The Cadillac ride should be much more than just “good enough”, it should be an experience that is so amazing that people take notice. That’s how it used to be. Now they just copy BMW, and that’s simply not a great ride in anyone’s book.
Cadillac should be able to sell cars to anyone who can pass their state driver’s test, not just people who are very good drivers in snow, or those who don’t have “brittle bones” as you say. I suppose you’d be just fine with Cadillac going to manual-only transmissions, and the heck with the idiots who can’t learn to shift for themselves. The problem though is that it would limit the market for Cadillacs, even when people have the big bucks to pay for them. Again for a sports car, I could see going all RWD, all stiff ride, all manual transmission. But Cadillac has always been a luxury brand, for those who like comfort and convenience.