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Alfa vs Alpha: Giulia Quadrifoglio vs Cadillac ATS-V

We have spent extensive time with the Cadillac ATS-V. And we recently tested the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde (QV) as well. With both vehicles fresh in our minds, notes jotted down, and feelings still lingering, we figured it to be a strong opportunity to compare the two. They are both, without question, the driver’s choice in their segment, thanks to their incredible chassis tuning, rear-wheel-drive dynamics, and relatively light weight for the class. Let’s begin.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V sedan side profile

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde side profile

Powertrain

At an SAE-rated 464 horsepower and 445 lb-ft of torque, the LF4 twin-turbo V6 engine was the most powerful vehicle in its segment, for a while. A 4.2-second 0-60 time also comes at the rush of being sucked through a vacuum tube. At least, that’s what the engine noise suggests. The LF4, more than any other GM engine before it, sounds like a pissed-off Dyson at full chat from the inside. The sound coming out the BMW-mimicking exhaust pipes is crisp and raspy, if not a little restrained. Power delivery, sent through either through the 8L90 8-speed automatic or a six-speed manual transmission is strong down low (peak torque starts at 2,400 rpm) in the power band, and hearty through 6,000 RPM. Then it just… runs out. The lack of power between 6,000 and the 6,500 rpm redline does dilute the driving experience a bit, as the fun of running out a gear is minimized. The LF4 would rather have its user shift early. On the flip side, the six-speed manual transmission is a definitive unique selling proposition that the ATS-V offers here in North America, unlike the Giulia QV. This matters.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Coupe Engine Bay - GMA Garage 002

Engine bay of the 2016 Cadillac ATS-V

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio First Drive - Engine Bay

Engine bay of the 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde

Then there’s the Italian Alfa Romeo’s purely paisano powertrain panache. Paisano because of the brotherly benefits the Giulia QV receives from Ferrari. The engine is a Ferrari V8 with two cylinders missing, and the whole vehicle program was developed by an elite handpicked team led by Ferrari 458 Speciale chief engineer Philippe Krief. There’s a seductive push-button start right there on the flat-bottom steering wheel. And the soundtrack is nothing less than a mechanical interpretation of the Biscione growl before it swallows up cowering men as if they were Ciauscolo sausages. But that can only be unlocked in “Race” mode. Why there isn’t a simple button to open up those exhaust valves is one of those quirky head-scratchers that Alfa exhibits seemingly with every car they’ve ever offered. The 505-horsepower punch coming from that snarling 90-degree 2.9L twin-turbo V6 is also delivered in a different way than how the Cadillac provides thrust. Blessed with a 7,250 rpm redline, the crescendo builds and builds, all the way to the redline finale, where a swift flick of the massive (appropriately column mounted) upshift paddle directs the transmission to swiftly claw into another gear. Sheer joy and satisfaction are guaranteed every time, even if it’s only available in automatic.

2017 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan Carbon Black 003

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde rear three quarters

Winner: Alfa Romeo.


Handling

The driving dynamics are incredibly close here, but the Alfa Romeo does every single thing with more gusto, more power, and a completely different personality than the Cadillac. But the Alfa Romeo is also far more on the edge. The very character of the Giulia QV is that of initial defiance, especially in Race mode. And at times, it feels like domesticating a wild horse. The process turns into a hard dance of figuring out how the car likes it, rather than what the driver thinks it wants. And in this dance, Giulia is the lead. Only when the driver can earn the respect of Giulia will they ever find control. Finding this space can be both equal parts challenging and rewarding, as the assertive telepathy from the steering wheel, the damn fine suspension, and the adhesive Pirelli P Zero Corsa Asimmetrico 2 tires will gladly communicate with the driver to achieve a visceral enlightenment. The result is a memorable accomplishment.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan - Quick Spin 14

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde front three quarters standing

Alfa Romeo’s DNA driving modes offer varying flavors of spice, with “Race” highlighted red on the rotary dial as a bonus track. Race mode is the only mode where the exhaust is fully activated, so it’s the only mode the Giulia QV needs to be driven in. Race mode also gives the ride a supercar firmness, disengages the stop/start function, and overboosts the turbochargers to amplify throttle response (and erotic mechanical noises). For more pedestrian days, the Dynamic or Natural modes are impressively compliant, especially for how stiff Race mode is, even without the magnetic dampers enjoyed by the Cadillac. The brake-by-wire system makes the pedal feels overboosted and firm, which can feel abrupt at lower speeds, but does negate pulsing sensations. More spirited driving and corner carving reveals the reasoning for such a firm bite. The Brembo carbon ceramic disc brakes, measuring a generous 360 mm in the front and 350 mm in the rear, can withstand Nurburgring-levels of punishment, and can wash speed off from 60-0 in just 100 feet, basically even with the Cadillac. Like we said, this car is a dancer.

Piloting the ATS-V is less of taming a wild animal, and more of a tutorial. The multiple driving modes, both from the console-embedded selector as well as the initially-hidden PTM system, encourage gradual ramping up of one’s abilities and Dares Greatly to test the lateral grip of the Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires. In PTM Sport 2 or even Race mode, the Cadillac ATS-V is fully alive, and the layers of computerized systems that disengage the driver from sensation are as peeled back as they can be, and with the integrated Performance Data Recorder, drivers can log their progress in real-time. The gradual elevation in difficulty makes the ATS-V very approachable for the uninitiated, but comes short of satisfying the utterly desensitized among us. In contrast, the Alfa Romeo exposes and punishes all vulnerabilities of novices, and aims to please only the darkest of driving deviants.

Winner: Alfa Romeo


Exterior Design

By no means is either vehicle an eyesore. Both are visually striking. The Cadillac ATS-V radiates with sharpened angles that Giorgetto Giugiaro would be proud of and is a design bound to age well into the next century, even if the rear exhaust pattern apes the BMW M3 too obviously.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan at the track 09

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde turning on track

The Alfa Romeo with its radical aerodynamics and iconic triangular grille. Just ignore people calling its somewhat beakish face the “Owlfa”. Of course, design is entirely subjective, and it’s hard to choose between these two distinct lookers. But if there was a Beretta pointed at our heads, we’re going to have to make a decision.

Winner: Cadillac

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde Alfa Romeo logo and grille


Interior Design

Anybody setting themselves within the cabin of the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio for the first time will quickly realize that the car means business. Obvious clues are the carbon fiber framed performance seats, vibrant stitching, more carbon accents, and the most inspired steering wheel and instrument panel in anything with four doors. The (column mounted!) gear selectors are large enough to resemble daggers, while the red push-button start is capable of turning on the driver before the ignition even fires. Are all of the materials perfect? No, not really. The electronic gear selector could have come from a discount store, and the cupholder situation can certainly induce an eye-roll. Regardless of the nitpicking, the interior of the Alfa Romeo sets new standards of athletic intent from all major components. Big paddles, a perfect steering wheel, a vibrant IP and a big-red-go-button all contribute to its paisano panache.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan - Quick Spin 20

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio First Drive interior 002 driver cockpit

From the outside, general onlookers tend to understand that the Cadillac ATS-V is fast. Its wider stance, hood extractor, and quartet of tail pipes imply all of that. There’s not much on the inside to imply the same. The Recaro seats, sure. The minimal V-badging, yeah. But that’s it. That’s not to say we aren’t fans of mature and subtle looks – Alex himself drives an ATS and Sean’s gone the route of the even sleepier looking Chevy SS performance sedan. It’s just that the gauge cluster remains terribly uninspired, the CUE interface has not changed much, and we can’t say we’re that fond of the (optional) alcantara wrapped steering wheel. Its fuzzy texture can also be a tad slippery.

Winner: Alfa Romeo


Quality

A concerning amount of automotive outlets have reported buggy experiences with their Alfa Romeo Giulia QV media cars. Some for failing to complete a lap around a track without a Check Engine light emerging (this is a car that holds the Nurburgring record for sedans), and others completely broke down under simple highway driving. It’s obviously not a good first impression for a brand re-entering a rather commodified and extremely competitive segment. Italian brands have historically struggled with quality in high-volume, commodified segments. Exotic marques like Ferrari and Lamborghini have also been known to spontaneously combust for no reason, but they continue to be given a pass due to their sheer curb appeal. So the news that early Giulia QV builds are experiencing problems plays into a negative stereotype, while also coming in at an extremely inconvenient time. Alfa Romeo is crucial for the future of FCA because it’s where the future underpinnings of Dodge will trickle down from.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan at the track 11

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde rear three quarters 002

All of that said, we put 1,400 miles on one – likely more than just about any other outlet – and the experience featured none of the glitches that have been reported elsewhere. We were able to enjoy our road trip from Detroit to Montreal and back with a ride that was surprisingly comfortable with exotic overtones. Canadians loved looking at that car.

In the case of the ATS-V, the Cadillac has seemed to have mostly dodged any reporting of catastrophic failures in the hands of the press – unlike what recently happened with the Giulia QV at VIR in the hands of Car & Driver. Though it doesn’t take long to pull up serious powertrain failures on various forums. Our ownership experiences with an ATS 2.0T haven’t been entirely perfect, either. But it does seem that right now Cadillac is winning in initial quality over the Alfa. Which is a good thing, because nobody really wants to spend time in a rural GM dealership.

Winner: Cadillac


Infotainment

The pragmatically named Alfa Romeo Information and Entertainment System utilizes a center-console-mounted rotary dial that controls the optional 8.8-inch infotainment screen. The dial could be tilted in each compass direction, flanked by a large Menu button on the left and an Option button to the right. These controls are supplemented by a separate radio control volume knob that also has the power to skip tracks or go back. Voice commands are also accounted for. There’s just a slight learning curve to it, but being able to rest the hand over the IES controls and pick up the muscle memory that’s quickly gained from a tactile knob quickly makes the experience seamless. However, the 2017 model-year Giulia family does not feature Apple CarPlay nor Android Auto, but will feature these traits for 2018. The Cadillac ATS family already does.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Coupe interior - GMA Garage 008 center stack

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio First Drive interior 005 infotainment display

Cadillac has made strides to update its CUE system, as seen by a more user-friendly layout found in the much larger CT6 sedan and XT5 crossover, with a rationed amount of actual buttons and knobs. There’s also the latest version (CUE 3) in the 2017i CTS sedan, which immensely speeds up processing power, but still features nay a button nor knob. The ATS has yet to reap any of these benefits, although the third-gen CUE system reaches the ATS for the 2018 model year.

Winner: Alfa Romeo


Ergonomics

This one, like the handling, is incredibly close. Both the Cadillac and the Alfa Romeo are optimized for the driver. The seating positions are optimal. The sight lines are track-ready. Both cars have floor-mounted pedals, both have metal shift paddles, and both have athletic seat bolsters. The Alfa just feels a slice or two sharper. The flat bottom steering wheel, wonderfully large paddle shifters, and infotainment controls all play to its favor here.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan - Quick Spin 24

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde front seats from front

Winner: Alfa Romeo


Back Seats

The numbers don’t lie: The Alfa has 35.1 inches of rear legroom and 37.6 inches of rear headroom, while the ATS-V Sedan has 33.5 and 36.8, respectively. In fact, the Cadillac has the least amount of rear seat space in its class, for those that care. Normally, this vehicle segment tends to skew towards more personal use. The coupe even more so. It just was a surprise to find the Alfa Romeo’s backseat to be less cramped.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan Rear Seats

The rear seats in the Cadillac ATS-V Sedan

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde rear seats

The rear seats in the 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde

Winner: Alfa Romeo


Price

As the entire segment continues to creep closer and closer to $100,000, both performance vehicles are unquestionably expensive. As tested, the Cadillac ATS-V comes in at$60,695 starting MSRP. But let’s talk about the options. There’s the $5,000 Carbon Fiber Package, $2,500 Luxury Package, the $2,000 8L90 8-speed automatic transmission option, and several grand more of various options, totalling $17,045. This blackened ATS-V was topped out with content, and tipped the scales with a $78,735 sticker price.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan - Quick Spin 18

The ATS-V’s hood vent

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde hood vent

The Alfa’s hood vents, aka the “nostrils”

In the case of the Alfa Romeo, which starts at $72,000, the most expensive add-on is the $1,595 destination charge. Then comes the $1,200 Customer Preferred Package, yielding forward collision and lane departure warning alerts, automatic high beam control, and an infrared windshield (which deflects the rays of the sun). The Harmon Kardon audio system is listed at $900, the Montecarlo Blue paint job is $600, the 19-inch wheels are an additional $500, and the carbon fiber steering wheel is listed at $400. The total price for this 505-hp Italian predator? $77,195.

2016 Cadillac ATS-V Sedan at the track 07

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde rear three quarters

The ATS-V is underpowered to the Alfa, heavier than the Alfa, and is not as nimble around the track (despite being incredibly capable). Nevertheless, in this instance, it costs more. Yet, the Cadillac is perceived to be a more risk-averse option when the quality is considered. And there’s both the truth of starting at a lower MSRP, as well as the Alfa Romeo offering unfavorable lease deals.

Winner: Draw


Verdict: Alfa Romeo

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde from front off-side

We theorize that somewhere in development, it feels as if the ATS-V lost the plot of being a uniquely American offering in an import-dominated segment. It didn’t get a V8, and therefore it sometimes feels as if it suffers from copycat syndrome. At the end of it all, its European-inspired appeal tends to be eclipsed by actual European cars, while the remaining American features fall into negative stereotypes, like dealers struggling to sell them to their familiar customer base.

Meanwhile, the Alfa Romeo Giulia QV is representative of what has always made the brand so enchanting, even if the quality clichés suggest consumer caution. Regardless, the awakened emotions from driving an Alfa Romeo in any location, in any condition, shouts over any nay-say and doubts coming from the logical receptacles of the brain. It’s a passion play through and through, and both looks and plays the part, and serves as a reminder for brands to be themselves.

For what it’s worth, the ATS family is significantly older than the Giulia, and will be replaced by an all-new model likely called Cadillac CT3 in the not-too-distant future. Whether that model has a high-performance CT3-V derivative is currently unknown. But if it does, here’s to hoping that it addresses the weak points of the ATS-V.

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Former staff.

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Comments

  1. Great comparison article!

    To nit pick, I don’t believe interior dimensions should be listed as cubic inches, as these are just plain old linear inch measurements.

    “The Alfa has 35.1 cubic inches of rear legroom and 37.6 cubic inches of rear headroom”

    Reply
  2. “We theorize that somewhere in development, it feels as if the ATS-V lost the plot of being a uniquely American offering in an import-dominated segment. It didn’t get a V8, and therefore it sometimes feels as if it suffers from copycat syndrome. At the end of it all, its European-inspired appeal tends to be eclipsed by actual European cars…”

    Bingo. In fact one of the few “wins” for the ATS-V in this comparison was with the linear American exterior design, something that Johan de Nysschen intends to take away from Cadillac, to make it all the more European-looking. Cadillac used to be the American luxury leader, but it dropped the ball when it decided to become a Euro-imitator.

    Sad also that a car with the “Cadillac” badge would lose out to a European model due to being less roomy inside. And I will even give the “Giulia” points over the ATS-V for having a real name, something that JDN would never do, since BMW doesn’t do it that way.

    Reply
    1. Much context and understanding is needed.

      1. Age

      The ATS is a generation older than the Giulia… so the issues we see here (such as with the rear seat, for instance) should be addressed for the next generation model… assuming that the replacement for the ATS will continue being positioned as a direct rival to the vehicles in the C segment, rather than as a tweener (as some previous rumors have suggested).

      2. Time, Money, Vision, Direction

      The ATS family was developed with very little money (funded by “Old GM”) and in a very fast period of time. It’s actually quite amazing that the final product is as good as it is.

      The initial plan for the ATS involved using the Delta 2 platform from the Cruze to underpin it… until someone realized that cutting corners with something as vital as the car’s foundation (platform) would not work whatsoever in this space/customer subset. But the low budget and short development period did mean that the final product was compromised in other areas, as we see in the review.

      In addition, and possibly more importantly, the ATS was developed during a time when there wasn’t really a clear, uniform, concise vision for Cadillac. All of GM was still shaken from the bankruptcy of 2009-2010 when the car was halfway through development. During that time, Cadillac didn’t even have a leader for almost a year (it was being led by the VP of sales and service for GM North America as his secondary responsibility). From there, Cadillac was headed by a revolving door of execs switching out every 7-16 months. None of these execs actually actually knew what they were doing until GM’s appointment of JdN to lead the brand as a division of sorts.

      Heck, Bob Ferguson – a lifelong lobbyist who has no clue about the car business – was even given the reigns for a period of 8 months or so:

      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/10/cadillac-gets-first-ever-global-brand-chief/

      So in an industry where competent leaders need a good 5 years to 7 to see their vision through (and those who are less competent needing a decade or more), this revolving door of execs prior to JdN had accomplished pretty much nothing… if not a negative amount.

      The bottom line is that the follow-on model to the ATS should address these issues… and should be a very good product since it was developed under a clear vision for the brand and its products… not to mention that chief engineer for all Cadillac vehicles will be the same person starting in 2015.

      3. Is JDN your enemy?

      Your comments about JdN are mis-directed. Cadillac’s change in naming was well underway before he even began interviewing for the job. But regardless, the Giulia is the only model in the segment with a non-alphanumeric “name”… and that works for Alfa Romeo as it has one sedan in its lineup… it doesn’t work when you have two or three or more models that need to be easily identified in the lineup (like Cadillac).

      4. Negative conclusions about future Cadillac design, sight unseen.

      It looks like you making negative conclusions about Cadillac’s future design language based on JDN’s highly general comments… but all of us have yet to see what this design will look like.

      First things first: the revised design language will be evolutionary in nature. Don’t expect Cadillac to declare war on creases or edges, like Mercedes has done:
      http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/01/cadillac-exterior-design-to-remain-evolutionary-not-revolutionary/

      Personally, I do not expect that the design changes will carry a negative consequence, but rather be a positive. After all, GM and Cadillac have some of the best designers in the world making some great-looking cars.

      Bottom line: no one outside of team Cadillac knows about Cadillac’s future design language and how future models will… so to make premature conclusions with a negative spin about it today is just not an astute thing to do.

      Oh Drew, we have been over this before, haven’t we? 🙂

      Reply
      1. Hi Alex. No JDN is not my enemy. He’s just the wrong person to lead Cadillac, and I don’t like seeing him kill off this American icon. JDN did an acceptable job as the head of Audi USA, as long as Audi Germany was pumping out worthy product during a time when German luxury brands were treated with awe by Americans (and much of the rest of the world). But JDN himself had very little to do with the success of Audi in the USA, something of which Ms. Barra seems unaware. Let’s keep that in mind ourselves.

        My problem with JDN is not personal at all. What I don’t like is that he wants to destroy all vestiges of what made Cadillac an American icon, and he doesn’t even realize that he’s doing this. It would be a little like an American going to Europe, tearing down the great cathedrals in order to make room for steel and glass McDonald’s restaurants. Yes McDonald’s has its place, so do steel and glass buildings, but you have to appreciate the local history and culture in order to sell there, and it’s obvious that JDN has no understanding with regard to the USA and the Cadillac brand.

        What I can’t understand is why some people would cheer on JDN’s destruction of Cadillac. Aren’t there enough Euro-brands and Euro-clones already? Why do you want another one? Why would people even care about the Cadillac name, if they don’t like classic Cadillac products and values, if they don’t even like the angular American styling? What IS Cadillac to such people? This honestly baffles me.

        Could someone please explain? At least I can understand JDN, Uwe, and Melody doing what they do to collect big paychecks. But is it possible to be a “Cadillac fan” and not actually like the historic Cadillac brand? Thanks in advance for enlightening me.

        Reply
        1. JDN is not my enemy, My problem with JDN is not personal at all:
          – He’s just the wrong person to lead Cadillac, and I don’t like seeing him kill off this American icon
          – JDN himself had very little to do with the success of Audi in the USA
          – What I don’t like is that he wants to destroy all vestiges of what made Cadillac an American icon
          – it’s obvious that JDN has no understanding with regard to the USA and the Cadillac brand.
          – What I can’t understand is why some people would cheer on JDN’s destruction of Cadillac.
          – This honestly baffles me.

          Could someone please explain? Thanks in advance for enlightening me.

          Here’s your explanation Drew – Dunning Kruger Effect, you got lemon juice all over your face.

          Reply
          1. “Here’s your explanation Drew – Dunning Kruger Effect …”

            Gee that’s really clever, Trombone. Why not just say “Here’s your IQ Drew” and hold your thumb and forefinger into the shape of a zero? I was looking for a serious answer, and obviously you have none. Nor does anyone else here.

            You can disagree with my belief that Cadillac should continue to be linked to their strengths as an historic brand, but you can’t argue with the market share numbers – falling drastically ever since Cadillac started to abandon its own values and imitate the German ones instead. Those are real numbers, objective analysis rather than subjective “feelings”.

            You apparently have blind faith in JDN, the foreigner who had no real impact on the success of Audi in the USA, and who merely re-arranged the deck chairs at Infiniti. You love posting on a Cadillac-oriented message board, yet you have no interest in Cadillac’s core values and history as the number 1 US luxury brand. You refuse to address the basic conundrum there – why do you bother to care about Cadillac if you don’t like the products? And what makes you think JDN has any idea of how to make and sell Cadillacs to Americans?

            Reply
            1. As expected, no response from “Old Trombone” or anyone else. No answers to the above questions, but 5 downvotes currently. Downvotes are not responses or answers.

              “Dunning Kruger Effect” is not an answer either, because even if true about me, it does not explain why people who don’t like classic Cadillac values are interested in a Cadillac website, and it doesn’t explain why people here have so much faith in JDN. “Old Trombone” thought he was being clever – and evading my questions – but where are the serious answers?

              Well I tried. It’s been fun and interesting. Enjoy the New Cadillac aka CMW. Thanks again to Alex Luft for providing this website; good luck to Alex and the rest of you.

              Reply
        2. What exactly is JDN doing that has you so upset about the direction that Cadillac is going? None of us have seen a single Production vehicle yet. And the Escala Concept was highly praised by everyone!!!

          Reply
          1. Momolos, JDN has already told us where he intends to take Cadillac as a brand. You can find this in the recent New York Times article and elsewhere. He is essentially running the same playbook he started at Infiniti, so you can also look there to see where he’s going.

            I’m not going to keep repeating the same quotes and sources, either look them up yourself or remain in denial, but he has in fact told us where he’s going with the brand, if you choose to look. And if you don’t choose to look, I won’t lose any sleep over it. But to say he’s given no indication is simply wrong. #driverscars #roundedstyling #bmwfan.

            As to the Escala concept, JDN had little to do with that and he chose not to produce it, despite a good deal of market interest. JDN has shown that he’s not bold, he’s an imitator. But enjoy his presence just the same, I think you’ll love his cars if you love Euro-clones. Maybe when JDN changes the name of Cadillac to CMW, you’ll finally realize where he’s taken the brand.

            Reply
            1. I have indeed read all of the interviews that JDN has done. I am still confused by what you are considering him making Cadillac Un-American. What does that even mean?
              He wants properly sized sedans (which is what the market dictates)
              He lost out to the Bean counters at GM and is stuck making the all too popular and much needed upcoming CUV’s utilizing GM parts bin FWD platforms. Not what he wanted to do or was probably promised by GM I’m sure when he took the job.
              Like I still DO NOT understand what JDN has changed or stated that has you up in arms over the direction Cadillac is going in.
              If anything, I really like JDN a lot and I’m extremely disheartened the upcoming CUV’s will be FWD instead of going after the big boys properly with RWD.
              He obviously doesn’t have the free reign in GM as you think, even though he should.

              Reply
  3. Cadillac dropped the ball long before they decided to become a European imitator. The ATS was in the works before JDN came along therefore we should not blame him for any of that or at least give him the benefit of the doubt. I for one am willing to wait and see what JDN brings to the table. If the new breed of Cadillac’s fail the I will blame JDN.

    Reply
    1. VCAT, I’m not blaming JDN at all for the ATS. Cadillac did drop the ball on reliability, but the answer was not to become a Euro-imitator.

      I’m simply observing that the article rightly points out that Cadillac has failed as a Euro-copycat, when it could have embraced being an American brand; JDN deserves no blame for the ATS, but JDN has stated his intention of making Cadillac even less American and more European. So he’s doubling down on what the article notes has been a bad strategy.

      By all means however, let’s not judge JDN’s results until they are in. Sometimes doing even more of what failed in the past, leads to massive success in the future – right?

      Reply
      1. Drew,

        1. You characterize Cadillac as being a “European copy cat” and wish for all Cadillac models to become differently-sized variants of what you consider to be the pinnacle of Cadillac – the Cadillac DTS. I get that you love your DTS… but that’s not where the market exists.

        On the other hand is the perspective that the cars Cadillac is making today are getting closer and closer (though not totally there… yet) to what luxury car buyers expect and want from a luxury car.

        So while Cadillac was finding itself with the likes of the ATS and third-gen CTS, there is no reason to believe that continuing to improve on what are already very good starting points will not work.

        2. “but JDN has stated his intention of making Cadillac even less American and more European. So he’s doubling down on what the article notes has been a bad strategy.”

        No idea what you’re on about here. Have specific examples of this?

        3. “Sometimes doing even more of what failed in the past, leads to massive success in the future – right?”

        Who said that the past is a failure? A starting point from which to build on? Absolutely. A failure? Not at all.

        And who said that Cadillac continue doing what has been done on the past, anyway?

        Reply
        1. Alex, JDN wanted to make Infiniti “The BMW of Japan”. He’s running the same playbook at Cadillac that he started to run at Infiniti – including the move of HQ (in their case it was Tokyo to Hong Kong), the new letter/number sequences, the creation of a super-duper-sport version of an existing sedan, etc. And in the NY Times recent interview, JDN said he’s going to make the cars rounded (a la the Europeans) instead of angular, and that all the cars will be “driver’s cars” (sounds like an Autobahn thing). He’s also shown that he wants to build cars to Euro specs, rather than boldly making Cadillacs regardless of what the competition is doing. So that’s the way he’s making them even more European. What’s vestige of American Cadillac will remain under JDN? Just the name?

          As far as what’s been going on at Cadillac being a failure, realize that Cadillac was #1 in the US luxury market for 50+ years in a row (until 1999), last year they were 5th, the past couple of months they have been 7th. Sure if your measure of success is “now they are doing what I want them to do”, then any brand can be a success if that’s your yardstick. I was talking about market share and profits. And yes I know GM doesn’t break out profits by brand, but when you spend more money developing cars and you sell fewer of them, it stands to reason that profits are down. That’s not even counting the cost of moving to NYC.

          Reply
        2. Alex, I don’t remotely consider the DTS the pinnacle of Cadillac history. It was simply the best riding Cadillac sedan this century, the best example of Cadillac classic values of roominess, ride comfort, and not being cheap on the lower trim models. Every DTS got a V8 engine, power leather seats, and xenon headlamps. That’s something JDN could learn from, but he won’t.

          Appearance-wise, the DTS is a bit stodgy. In terms of luxury interior and electronics, it’s outdated. There were many other Cadillacs in history that were bigger, bolder, roomier, more elegant, edgier, more comfortable riding. The brand name and brand values were well established before the DTS. The CT6 could have been a worthy successor, but it’s lacking true Cadillac values in too many ways, including the cheapened base version.

          Classic Cadillac values are not about recreating the DTS. If you don’t know what the brand is about, I’m not sure why you have any interest in Cadillac. No one has explained to me why they are so confident in JDN, yet at the same time they say no one knows where he’s going with the brand.

          By the way, JDN’s pet project while at Infiniti was called the “Eau Rouge”. Which is named after a famous race track in Europe, in case you don’t know where JDN’s sentiments lie. It was to be a souped up sedan much like the CTS-V. After JDN left Infiniti for Cadillac, Infiniti killed the Eau Rouge project. JDN couldn’t leave well enough alone, and derided the Japanese management and engineers and Infiniti for being more interested in luxury features than “performance”. Maybe just maybe the Japanese management and engineers understood the Japanese market better than JDN understood it.

          Reply
  4. Great comparison test! Thanks for an enjoyable read

    Reply
    1. Will,

      I agree with you. I’m a long time Alfista and lifelong Cadillac buyer. I like both marques. ATS compared vary favorably. In Cadillac’s glory days it was a luxury brand. Alfa Romeo is a performance brand. Cadillac is a company in transition. A buyer looking for a performance car would do well with either.

      The first time I saw an Alfa Romeo in the real it did a total swoop. I had to have one! There is something about Alfa that can’t be described. It can only be experienced.

      Cadillac is my natural habitat. Cadillac has always been home to me.

      I enjoyed the read!

      Reply
  5. Y’wonder how ‘uniquely American’ Cadillac will be –

    The Prez is Rwandan/South African.

    Uwe is German.

    Melody is Taiwanese.

    That could be an interesting recipe, w US mgt, but so far, seems to needs more time to cook down.

    Reply
    1. Immense diversity has largely been an American cornerstone. The only ingredient missing would be the context of when Cadillac went without equal, and what special attributes made it that way.

      Reply
      1. I believe that Cadillac changed for the worst back in the 80’s when GM, for cost saving reasons, put it on the same front drive platforms as the rest of it’s large vehicles. That was an overreaction to the need to downsize some of the excesses of the 70’s. It seems like cost cutting has been the main driving force for all of GM for decades. Barra and top management are richly rewarded for squeezing costs out of vehicles even if that produces mediocrity and not excellence. Have you ever heard the management of BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus brag about how cheaply they have produced a product ?

        Reply
        1. Well, I’ve never heard of an GM executive from the “new” GM discuss how “cheaply they have produced a product” either.

          But make no mistake about it – everyone (include GM, Daimler-Benz, BMW, Volkswagen Group, etc.) talks about scale economies, margins, etc…

          Reply
      2. Some foreign perspective can add a bit at times. But when you are talking about a major American icon, major American success story as a brand – currently lacking significant American input at the top, then how do you expect Cadillac to understand their most profitable (home) market?

        The problem is that neither Johan nor Uwe nor Melody has the background to appreciate what Cadillac means to Americans. They further have no idea why Cadillac was the #1 luxury brand in the US for many decades.

        They are trying to treat Cadillac as a blank sheet of paper. They are throwing away 100+ years of a successful brand, in return for nothing, cheap Euro-imitation. It’s not working and Cadillac is falling fast in the US market. But the culprit is GM upper management for not realizing you need some Americans to run an American brand; can’t blame Johan, Uwe, and Melody for accepting the big bucks while they destroy an American icon.

        Reply
      3. I’m sorry – I don’t think I was clear.

        I like that Johan, Uwe and Melody are part of an internationally diverse team – didn’t mean for it to sound xenophobic. (Reads like it in hindsight, but that wasn’t the intent).

        Reply
        1. Yeah, I wonder how ‘uniquely American’ Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Adams, etc etc were with their British passports. If they were good to change passports to American, then so is everybody else who changes their passport to American.

          Perhaps the most uniquely American car business was Scott Tucker’s Level 5 Motorsports, sponsored by Indian Tribes’ authorized payday loans, until the FBI jailed him under RICO. Tucker got multi millions, the American Indians got a few thousand. THAT’S American!

          Reply
  6. Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen wants it this way.. or he would have allowed the ATS-V to borrow the 640 hp LT4 supercharged 6.2L V8 from the CST-V then borrow some suspension components from the Chevrolet Camaro 1LE as this would have allowed the ATS-V to leapfrog the Alfa in overall performance and handling.

    Reply
  7. The design of the engine cover and plumbing tells you all you need to know about Cadillac’s attention to detail compared to it’s competition.

    Reply
    1. How can you say that, TD?
      Poor quality and horrible attention to details, boring and dated design is the ONLY way to express Cadillac. And if somebody wants to change it, then he is a traitor, who wants to turn this American brand into the european one.

      lol its funny,but some people really think so))

      Reply
  8. I love most all my Cadillac’s.

    I’m on with engine options etc.

    But my V series cars need to ALWAYS HAVE A V8 option.

    Reply
  9. I have never seen so many take a simple topic as Cadillac and turn it into some major personal disfunction.

    Some of you need to seek help to grasp the simple fact we have not seen a JDM model car yet. They have done some simple and cheap fixes but the true investment was put into the models he wants.

    To give a legitimate comparison of his models you need to wait till his models arrive. Unless you are a Cadillac engineer indon’t Think you have a clue.

    Second Cadillac lost its way long ago and has come back to a degree but was held back by a GM that interfeared with the vision of many that tried to change the division for the better. They were never given the money or the full authority to fulfill their vision.

    Finally everyone is not trying to be German. The reality is the type of cars the German made have defined the segment and have become the bench mark. Like it or not this is what sells the most at the highest price. Not FWD, not bench seats, not big floaty barges loaded with chrome everything and fender skirts.

    Cadillac has tried to do this segment their way with cars that would never be mistaken for a BMW. What has hurt them is the lack of focuse to make the complete car as they were sent to the parts bin too much. They were forced to use stylist that styled a Cobalt in Monday and a DTS on Friday.

    Today they have finally been given the money, their own focused stylist, their own focused engineers that only work for a Cadillac. They were given the chance to isolate themselves from zgM to prevent interfearance. And Finally we will get in due time engines built by Cadillac, for Cadillac.

    I wish people would drop the oh all they need to do is drop a Camaro engine in the car. Sure it is a great engine but should Cadillac not have better everything including engines in their cars than a Chevy? Also you already have a CTS v if you want the V8. Offering am ATS with the V8 will just cannibalize the CTS. The TT V6 was there to make a different car with an engine not available elsewhere at GM.

    So stop the bi$#ching and at least know First hand if you hate JDN or not. Hell I may hate him too but I will first wait to see his product and watch the results come.

    Also be fair as one model and one car is not going to make the whole division different. It will take more models and time for the public to discover them and for the models to earn their trust.

    Frankly I see several of you never being happy and so be it. I just want to see results no matter what direction JDN takes.

    Results no matter what any of us like or want are what we all should seek.

    Reply
    1. +100 Scott3

      Reply
  10. One thing the review leaves out. The Alfa will be a high cost maintenance vehicle compared to the Cadillac.

    Italian cars have never been cheap to buy and often not a car you want to keep post warranty.

    Cadillac on the other hand has made a good impression on the used market with the ATS. Many have sold to first Time a Cadillac owners and most have been pleased with the low cost of maintenance and durability. I have 4 of these owners at work and all plan to look to Cadillac on the next purchase and will look for it new.

    Reply
    1. No problems with our Alfas. Maintenance and wear and tear just like the Caddys.

      Reply
      1. I can see you never owned an Italian car by these comments.

        You can not bluff your way through lthst one.

        Reply
        1. Scott, there is an Alfa Romeo in my garage now. My name is on the title so it’s obviously not a stolen car.

          Didn’t you post some nonsense on another thread about Alfa having chassis issues? Another posted called the falsehoods out.

          @Alex Luft

          Why do you tolerate this type of post? Long time Cadillac buyers are bashed on this forum.

          Now I’m called liar.

          Reply
          1. https://blog.caranddriver.com/report-claims-crash-test-troubles-behind-alfa-romeo-giulia-delay/

            That was before

            https://jalopnik.com/here-are-all-the-problems-that-fca-has-attempted-to-fix-1797069082

            Susan do not try to bs your way through this. Fiat, Alfa and Ferrari have a well known history of quality issues and high cost intensive maintenance issues.

            Ever hear about the 30,000 mile Ferrati maintenance that is required at a large cost.

            How about the 25000 mike timing belt changes Fiat required for years.

            Sorry there are many documented quality issues on this car and you are not going to bluff your troll way out of his.

            Hey This Alfa is a fun car to drive for sure. It has some neat things about it but Quality was, has been and still is a problem for this car.

            Reply
            1. Thanks Alex.

              As we can now see this was not my opinion.

              If anyone likes Google Alfa quality issues and there are many stories.

              On well known web site had a major failure on the test.

              Simple things like the timing chains of the Cadillac vs belts of the Alfa. Chains add much more durability and no expensive labor to change the belts more often. This is important to many buyers do not want the added cost and down time.

              There are many more examples of better quality in the Cadillac.

              GM often nail the suspensions and drive trains but they fail on the inside.

              The truth is a Fiat and FCA has a well documented history of major quality issues. Neat cars and fun cars but the old term Fix It Again Tony still applies.

              Reply
          2. Alex remove the hold on my post with the links to show Susan the well documented issues with this Alfa.

            It is not my opinion it is media documented. I only posted two but more are out there.

            Reply
        2. scott3
          September 10, 2017 at 4:02 pm

          Well here is the deal. The ATSV is an old car and the Alfa just arrived and still came up short.

          The reality is the CT5 is coming and will be better than the CTS and ATS V models.

          Aldo the Alfa long term will show the Italian quality issues they are well known for that will kill the resale value.

          The Alfa had a long gestation not because the were sweating the detail vpbut because they had major chassis issued in crash testing. You think having cue issues is bad how about a chassis issue? That is a major problem and really hurt FCA as they were depending on Alfa volume that has yet to arrive even 2 years later.

          Alfa is like the Cleveland Brown. They may win a game here or there but they are not going to the Super Bowl soon.

          Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/09/cadillac-ats-v-bested-by-alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-at-vir-but-not-by-much/#ixzz4vpEFVlwy

          Scott,

          This is your post on another thread claiming that Giulia Q had chassis issues. Kevin refuted your claim. You did not respond to Kevin.

          Are you that guy who tries to disparage women in an attempt to make yourself a big man? I hope you are not. You’re better than that.

          Please link the post were I claimed to own Giulia Q. I’ll wait. It will take the rest of one of our lifetimes as I never made that claim. Giulia Q is not the first or only model Alfa Romeo ever produced.

          I am an Alfa Romeo owner. My experience with Alfa has been positive. I shared my personal experience with Alfa just as I have with Cadillac. I’ve enjoyed many Cadillacs. The one I have now not so much.

          I love my Alfa!

          On the thread I linked to remind you of your chassis allegations against Alfa I posted the link documenting that Fiat is the #1 producer of lemons with Cadillac in the #2 rank. Arguing quality may not be a strength.

          As to the cost of maintaining a car it could be relative. Caring for a Cadillac or Alfa may seem prohibitive to you but not to me. It may not. You have your preferences. I have mine. I don’t pay your bills. You don’t pay mine.

          It’s disappointing that GM Authority continues to entertain posts that disparage other posters. Disagreeing on content is one thing. Personal attacks are entirely different. There is no reason for personal attacks or name calling.

          I hope this type of behavior can be laid to rest. It’s appears that Alex Luft is good with it. That’s unfortunate.

          Reply
          1. I am not here to make friends. I am here to debate. I call out those not being honest and that is what happened here. You got upset when I called you. Then you try to get sensitive when I back up my claims with links.

            As for treatment I treat you just as I do anyone else not behind honest there be it Drew or a number of others.

            I stated you were not being honest on the quality and provided links to back it up. You fail to counter and now try to deflect.

            Thanks for posting m6 old post to show I am consistent with this to. As for Kevins reply I never saw it and had moved on as I do have a life outside here.

            I never said you had a new Alfa but that changes nothing of a long history on Fiat and FCA quality issues. Odds are you have a restored older model that I am glad you enjoy. But if one sets out to drive most Alfa models as a daily driver they are in for many issues and high maintenance that is required. Like my Fiat that required timing belts at 25000 mikes. Not 26 because they break taking al, the valves. Good thing we had a second engine sitting around from a rusted out coupe. The car finally failed as the unibody broke hitting a snow drift.

            The bottom line here is I stared the new car has had quality issues and linked to prove it. You offer nothing to counter this and just defect.

            I invite you to bring something legit to counter my links and prove them wrong. The Quality issue is not opinion it is proven.

            I am glad you like your car and I am sure it is a fun ride but I wager that you do not daily drive it in the Midwest even in the salt and see it last 10 years with minimum issues.

            You can drive a Restored Yugo on weekends for pleasure too and see few problems too.

            The reality is the Giulia has has issues with the chassis and that is what delayed tbe intro so long. The car has shown First adopters and magazines issues with quality.

            Also you have the reality that Sergio had promised something like 500,000 units by last spring. At this point they are not even close.

            As for the ATS it needs replaced, it is old and while the platform was great the discounted interior and nagging short cuts have denied it from being what it needs to be,

            As For JDN I can not give him a win and you honestly can not give him a loss as we have yet to see his first car. He may very well fail but a honest person will condemn him only after seeing his actual work.

            I am optimistic but to be honest it could be a fail. But I will judge the actual product unlike you condemning JDN with out seeing a single product from him. Again not being honest.

            Susan we are on opposite sides here and as long as you are not honest I will call you on it as I would anyone else. As long as you are fair and honest then I have nothing to counter. It is up to you.

            For now I recommend we all wait to see the new product and judge it o pence it arrives. But we both need to be honest in like or hate.

            While I am optimistic I am honest that JDN could fail or GM could step in and mess this up again. Time will show us the results.

            By the way the cost of maintaining is part of the deal but in this day and age when many cars go 150,000 with only brakes and oil changes required timing belt changes and other required work often becomes troublesome to many not just for the cost but for the down time. Heck even a 911 no longer need valve adjustments every 15000 miles.

            Reply
          2. Sue you are deflecting.

            You are treated no different than anyone else I disagree with. Stop playing the victim.

            If you want to make a point then counter my links if you can find any legitimate source. What I posted was not my opinion but reported cases of issues.

            Thanks for posting my past comments to show they are consistent.

            I appreciate you have an older Alfa. I never said you had a new one. But a daily driver Alfa is not a reliable vehicle or long term car with little up keep. They never were.

            I am sure yours is well kept and is a pleasure vehicle which limits the issues.

            You may not like hearing what I state but you know it is true and have no way to respond with evidence of anything different.

            Sorry if you don’t like hearing the straight truth but lying is not going to change it. Even on things I like I have to post counter to my own personal feelings as to just post my wishes would be dishonest.

            Reply
            1. Scott,

              I’ve never purchased a used car. My Alfa is not Giulia Q. My Cadillac is not ATSV. I did not make representations to that effect. This article is on those two cars.

              I currently own a Cadillac and an Alfa Romeo. It’s a curious that you attempted to school me on the care and feeding of my Alfa. You are a Chevrolet guy. I have no direct experience with Chevy. I wouldn’t begin to tell you about the reliability or repair of your cars.

              My Alfa is a seasonal vehicle. I don’t want to subject it to the chemicals used to treat the roads in winter. The car is driven regularly with the exception of winter. I was out in my Alfa today.

              My comments are on my personal experience with my cars. I can tell you that my husband had an Alfa Romeo for a daily. He loved the car. He traded a Cadillac in on his Alfa Romeo. An OB-G specialist can’t call in and say my car won’t start. He had no reliability issues. Maintenance and wear and tear only. We don’t take our cars to a track. He drives his cars a little harder than I do.

              I read your links earlier today. The links read that Car and Driver said that Automotive News said that some supplier(s) said the Giulia Q supposed delay may have been due to crash test issues. That’s an interesting he said that they said that they said maybe. Are you able to provide a specific citation with actual sources?

              I understand that there was/is legend that Alfa Romeo is not reliable. I was aware when I bought mine. I fell in love with the car when I saw it. My husband is a great enabler. He encouraged me to buy it. I needed very little encouragement. I never regretted my Alfa purchase.

              He likes imports. We’ve had quite a few luxury imports over the year. I loved my Cadillacs and I always bought Cadillac. My husband’s friends teased him about my cars. They wanted to know when he would buy his wife a decent car. They are import people.

              I’m not playing the vicitm. I am not deflecting. You posted that I never owned an Italian. You went on a tangent about cost of care and feeding. I have an Alfa not a Lambo.

              You posted that I am trolling and cannot BS my was out of my Alfa comments. Insults do not make a good argument.

              The Cadillac section of GM Authority entertains people who are hostile to Cadillac buyers. Not easy to understand but that is at Alex Luft’s discretion.

              Has it ever occurred to you to try to understand why a person who loved Caddy and never considered anything else for a daily is unlikely to buy another one?

              Again, I posted my personal experience. If you had grief with your Alfa or joy with your Cadillac please share.

              Reply
              1. Your personal experience is just that. Not a daily driver. As for your husband I will have to take your word for it a some Alfa’s are better than others. You never stated what he had so that makes it difficult to be specific.

                Thank you for being honest about the history of Alfa being sketchy.

                The truth is today’s are better than they were but everyone else is a whole lot betters.

                I gave up on buying Italian cars as they do take extra care and they would rot out if even driven in one winter. The only good one I had was from Texas.

                The one regret I did have was I passed on a Dino in 1985. It was offered at $15k and would have been a daily driver. The future of rust and expensive maintenance kept me away. Both legitimate concerns. If I had known the values were going to skyrocket I would have bought it a bought a cheap Chevy to drive, at the time I was in school and just had little extra money.

                Reply
                1. Also Susan. You are not singled out for being a woman you are only called out for you comments that are not true.

                  I appreciate you did fess up to Alfa being less than good in the past. Cadillac was not much better in many ways back in the 1980’s.

                  But while Alfa has improved they are still well behind most products out there.

                  The joke today is how do you make a Miata less reliable. You make it a Fiat.

                  But you made false statements though you may believe are true. You condemn JDN but have yet to see one single product he has made or even understand the time line or process of Cadillacs make over of their line. You also are out of touch with where the market is today.

                  I also note most car fans over look the warts of their brands. Italian cars are prime for this just ask a X/19 owner on quality.

                  I see the same in you. After you falsely accused me of you owning a new Alfa I correctly predicted you had a older one that was not a DD and was a weekend play car. Most Alfa’s are and most have less issues like this because they never see weather or many miles. That still.does not make them a quality built car.

                  In the near future you will see the new Alfaon used lots at prices even lower than a used ATS. They just will be more expensive too keep on the road than they are worth. We see that today with the Boxster. A car you can get for $10k but you need work that could cost half what you paid. The 928 is the same while air cooled 911 models keep going up.

                  I take it that you have nothing to counter my post to the Quality issues. I posted mine to Counter your false statements and it is up to you to prove otherwise.

                  Reply
                  1. But you made false statements though you may believe are true. You condemn JDN but have yet to see one single product he has made or even understand the time line or process of Cadillacs make over of their line. You also are out of touch with where the market is today.

                    Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/10/alfa-romeo-giulia-qv-vs-cadillac-ats-v-comparison-test/#ixzz4vyX2WKXM

                    Scott,

                    I give little thought to Cadillac’s division chief. I’ve seen lengthy repetitious posts on this forum with people arguing that Johan de Nysschen either walks on water or is endowed with horns, tail and cloven hoof. The posts are tiresome. I skip over them.

                    Early on he came off as a little arrogant to me.

                    My only concern is that the car I own now be made right by Cadillac. If that happens my impression of the brand will improve significantly. If not Cadillac will be a distant but fond memory or my previous Caddys.

                    I have no interest whatsoever in cars that Cadillac my sell in the future. If mine is not made right it’s the end of the line for me.

                    A Cadillac owner has no obligation to hold on to the company’s gonnado’s. We buy a car to use not to worship or suffer until the outfit claims they got it right.

                    I’m a customer. I don’t care what Cadillac will do in the future. I am interested in right here and now. If the issues on my CTS are not resolved satisfactorily GM won’t do anything to me in the future.

                    That’s business. Take care of your customers or someone else will.

                    Reply
                2. Your personal experience is just that. Not a daily driver. As for your husband I will have to take your word for it a some Alfa’s are better than others. You never stated what he had so that makes it difficult to be specific.

                  Thank you for being honest about the history of Alfa being sketchy.

                  Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/10/alfa-romeo-giulia-qv-vs-cadillac-ats-v-comparison-test/#ixzz4vyQCUNGC

                  Scott,

                  I did not state that the history of Alfa is “sketchy”. That is your word. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

                  I used the word legend. This is the dictionary definition of legend.

                  Define legend

                  leg·end
                  ˈlejənd/Submit
                  noun
                  1.
                  a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated.
                  “the legend of King Arthur”
                  synonyms: myth, saga, epic, tale, story, folk tale, folk story, fairy tale, fable, mythos, folklore, lore, mythology, fantasy, oral history, folk tradition;
                  urban myth
                  “Arthurian legends”

                  At no time in any of my posts did I make any reference to Alfa Romeo being unreliable. That has not been my experience.

                  As for daily driver if we are speaking literally I don’t have one. Daily use would require me to return home and change cars each day. I don’t do that.

                  I purchased the Cadillac I have now with the intent of using it as a daily. This winter will determine if that is feasible. The car has no traction in the slightest amount of snow. I am specifically referring to a light dusting of snow. I’ll try winter tires in hopes that partially resolves the issue.

                  The heat on the driver side is insufficient. I’ll ask the dealer to take another look at it. Driver side is uncomfortably cold. Passenger side is like a sauna. I was told that is the way it is.

                  There are many other issues with the car that I have never experienced on a Cadillac. If I had I would not have purchased this one. In my now experience GM’s Cadillac division is an excuse machine. The B2B warranty has a distinct tail light flavor .

                  I’ve been advised with other issues to bring the car back to the service department when the system/feature fails completely and they will look at it whatever that means.

                  Your attempt to frame my Alfa as a garage queen is fallacy. The car is driven regularly. I use it more frequently than the CTS.

                  Rust is a consideration for any car in my area. Every Cadillac I’ve retired was due to rust. I never attempted to condemn the brand because the communities use road salt in winter.

                  Your devotion to Cadillac is interesting. You will defend Cadillac to the end of the earth but will not buy one.

                  I understand we all have different points of view. I appreciate the more civil tone to your post. Courteous discussion is more productive IMHO.

                  Reply
            2. https://usat.ly/2yzWNy2

              CR item on reliability. Cadillac in last place. I’m not surprised.

              Reply
              1. You have got to do better than that.

                https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=dRTpWYqgDcjQ0gK8_oSQCA&q=alfa+romeo+reliability&oq=alfa+romeo+reliability&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.3..0l5.3667.13100.0.14261.23.23.0.15.15.0.236.3491.0j19j3.23.0….0…1.1.64.mobile-gws-hp..0.23.1499.3..41j46j0i131k1j0i46k1.140.1OWmY2mmWYg

                Pick a horror story pick any of them.

                You want me to go into the issues on the vintage cars that are so very documented.

                You are not honest about Alfa and to no surprise you miss cat agonize my comments and opinions.

                Anyone who knows cars and reliability know Alfa is not one of them and never really was accept in the eyes of some delutional owners. So I see few running to your side.

                As for Cadillac I have been one of their biggest critics here. Just look at my comments on the 80)s and 90’s models. Even today I have no issue stating they still have work to do and I hope to see JDN fix it. Time will be the judge not you or I.

                Reply
                1. Scott,

                  I have posted that I am speaking of my personal experience with cars I own now or have owned in the past. That does not make me delusional or dishonest.

                  Let’s just say I lived a charmed life until I bought a ’16 CTS last year. Hopefully that will work for you.

                  Have a good evening!

                  Reply
                  1. Just because you are mentioning your experience doesn’t mean that’s what the industry norm is!

                    If 99% of the buyers have zero issues with a car and that 1% has negative out come. The 1% isn’t more important than the 99%!

                    Reply
                    1. Cadillac is cheating customers out of original manufacturer’s warranty coverage by scheduling service appointments then not checking the car into service when presented by the owner.

                      A service advisor or service manager will take a quick look at the car and tell us there is no issue. Sometimes they will even take out a tiny code reader trying to fake us into believing the car has been scanned. More sophisticated equipment is necessary to diagnose. A tech never sees the car.

                      There is no service record so no documentation that the customer presented with a warranty concern.

                      I’ve posted before that my car does not downshift for highway maneuvers. The bruised knuckle Chevy driving intelligentsia at GM Authority diagnose lose nut behind the wheel via I’net.

                      I would be OK if issues that present were dealt with per the warranty. That’s not the way Cadillac rolls.
                      The transmission issues on my car were present from day one. Cadillac finagles out of coverage.

                      The helicopter rides, coffee houses, fashion shows and other extraneous grandstanding is typical of a concern that is squeezing the last drop from an oversized lemon before shutting it down.

                      Reply
                  2. Sorry Susan ‘‘tis is not all about you or me but as Cadillac as a whole.

                    Did you even read the CR rating and note that Cadillac was 6th last year and could drop with just one limited issue on one model.

                    You have to put this in perspective.

                    As for my Alfa examples of issues it was not jus one road test but multiple road tests and multiple customers.

                    Alfa had a chance to make an even greater impact but squandered it due to rushing a car through with many mistakes. GM did this for years too but are correcting this.

                    I have read many of your complaints and they are a mixed bag of complaints. Most are not common or even mentioned by other owners.

                    There is a chance for a bad car coming out for anyone but your experience does not represent the whole.

                    Like I said Cadillac for sure has some issues to correct but they are no where as bad as you like to make it.

                    When you speak you look in your world and not outside. When I speak I speak on the big picture and look at Vadillac as a whole.

                    Hell if I spoke from my GM experience it has been nearly perfect from the 40 Cars we have had in our family in the last 50 years but I know better than that. I know there have been issues and things that should have been done better.

                    But as it goes today they are not far off and most cars are as good as most others and better than many.

                    My in laws DTS was a train wreck but I know other models at that time were much better cars.

                    Again this is about being honest about it all not just cherry pick issues. Hence my listing of so many Alfa issues. If it were just one car my call out would not have happened.

                    Like ratings here on our comments they mean nothing as people can manipulate them all they like but it never changes the truth.

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                    1. Sue Cadillac is not cheating anyone.

                      The Service you get at the dealer often is up to the dealer you are working with.

                      GM has guidelines but due to the government regulations it is difficult to punish dealers for poor service and near impossible to remove them.

                      Add to this that they have 3x the Cadillac dealers they really want.

                      About the only options they have is to make discounts difficult and to with hold other incentives and allocations.

                      The other option is to buy them out but that is way beyond the budget.

                      As for what they plugged in odds are it is a GM Tech 2 tool. Dealers really don’t use code readers. The Tech 2 is s very advanced tool that can read, diagnose and even program the vehicle with new software. It is not something you buy from Autozone.

                      One of the issues of today’s vehicles is if there is no code issues can be very difficult to find.

                      Also and not saying this is your case but some customers feel they have an issue when in truth often noting is wrong. Many cars today do not drive like they used to do at times they will drive differently.

                      Cadillac has had some issues with odd shifting but that is what they do.

                      Sue I would have to drive your car to be sure but I suspect you have no issues and just personally just don’t like how it drives.

                      How much of a test drive did you have. Many customers today seldom drive a few miles before they Plunk down $60k plus on a car and end up with remorse due to not driving the car enough.

                      Note I am not saying this is you but many buyers in general.

                      When I buy a vehicle I have driven several of the same model. Then I drive the one I buy a good number of miles. At this point I take off for a couple hours. Some dealers will let you take it overnight.

                      I would wager that you just have a tranny you don’t like.

                      If there were no reports on this they may have done you a favor for when it is time to sell or trade as Carfax would hurt you with many reports. Many dealers may tell you they do not even want it.

                      There is s lot more to this than just Cadillac being evil.

                      I would recommend another dealer and get a second opinion. Not all dealers are incompetent. Also if you could drive a similar model you could gauge if it is normal or not. You could show them better the difference. Odds are they have a similar on on the used lot.

                      I truly hope this helps and is not any criticism of you in anyway.

                      I am no as evil as you think. Passionate but not evil.

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                    2. FYI.

                      Not sure what driv3 line you have but the V6 and six speed is the clunky drive line. Not horrible but some people take issue with it. The new V6 and 8 speed is much smoother and has better throttle response. It is a much better set up no matter what application Cadillac, Chevy Or GMC.

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  11. The only thing I disagree with is the Price being a draw. People don’t get the “V” version of a Cadillac and add on stuff like the carbon fiber and luxury package. Some people will but let’s get real. Caddy wins the price.

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  12. Damn foreigners ruin everything at GM. Especially the corvette. Them foreigners zora arkus duntov and Larry Shinoda sure did ruin its American heritage. What a joke it became after foreigners were allowed to work in the corvette program.

    (This is sarcasm)

    Reply
    1. Corvette Stingray was not an American icon before the foreigners made it what it became. The problem here is that Cadillac is an extremely successful brand to Americans (number 1 for over 50 years straight in the USA, “the Cadillac of ____”) which has no meaning to Johan, Uwe, and Melody. Furthermore, none of them have a background of successfully remaking an auto brand prior to arriving at Cadillac. Why are you trusting them more than any Curly, Moe, or Larry off the street?

      This is a bit like taking McDonald’s of the USA and deciding to sell sausage, potato pancakes, and sauerkraut instead of hamburgers, fries, and milkshakes. I suppose some people want to push the world to a mono-culture, but there are still regional differences in taste, some driven by geography and local conditions (e.g. US drivers tend to make longer trips than Germans, on roads less smooth and less fast than the Autobahn).

      Pointing to the success of a foreigner here or there in the USA does not negate the stupidity of removing all Americans from a position of power in an American icon, one which is still profit-dependent for the vast majority of its sales in the USA. Furthermore, part of the cachet of Cadillac is as an American brand, not one handed over to clueless foreigners to destroy and remake as simply another Euro-clone. If Cadillac no longer has any vestiges of its American heritage, why would anyone buy these cars? If you want a Euro-like car, why not just go for an actual European brand? Which was actually one of the conclusions of the above (Giulia vs, ATS-V) article, if you bothered to read it.

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    2. Don thank you for the notification that it is sarcasm.

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  13. Almost all the current Caddys created before JDN look dated, boring, cheap and simple. Inside and out. And if they are the “true” Cadillacs as some people say here then this “thruth” does not worth a dollar. And the proof is that they don’t sell. Because people want smth better. And they see it in the German cars.

    So,please, shut the *uck up and wait to see what JDN can offer. Cadillac won’t be an European brand. When they say European they mean quality, attention to details, prestige e.t.c. In this term, Cadillac should be an European. But nobody says that it will look like a Mercedes or a BMW.
    Cadillac will be a Cadillac, but with a new style, new tech, engines, quality… Etc

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  14. Also Cadillac got a lot of money, their own designers , who are independent now. They got a big autonomy in all the aspects from the GM.
    Cadillac has never been in a better position than it is right now. Well at least a long time ago. And all this thanks to JDN.

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  15. Alpha is a frail, useless, overpriced, Underpowered, uncomfortable, worthless whoever wrote this has never driven one for more than a simple test drive what a POS. I still do not understand why Cadillac spends 80% of its effort on less than 5% of its market. Almost any Old worn out Cadillac is a better car.
    But then again, they expected Hillary to be President.

    Reply
    1. “… I still do not understand why Cadillac spends 80% of its effort on less than 5% of its market. Almost any Old worn out Cadillac is a better car….”

      Great comments Steve. It’s especially baffling given that the change in direction has clearly cost Cadillac a major chunk of market share, has cost GM boatloads of profits, AND GM chooses to double down on a losing strategy by hiring JDN to pursue the losing Euro-imitation strategy to an even greater extent than was already the case coinciding with the market share decline.

      My only explanation – and this is a theory, essentially a guess – is that the 15% of the public who care about Euro-sporty cars rather than American luxury, are essentially the drivers of car-production policy. It’s a little like wondering why Hollywood makes content with ultra-liberal values when the vast majority of the public is not with them politically. They do it because even though they may only represent 15% of the public in terms of outlook, they are the vast majority in Hollwood. They assume that they are not out of touch with the market.

      The people who tend to go into the auto-making business, and the people who become professional auto writers, tend to be much more strongly “sport performance oriented” than the general public. They tend to forget that there’s an 85% that does not share the same view of what they want in a vehicle. At least that is one possible theory as to why Cadillac has been devoting so much of its engineering, production, and marketing energy to a very limited slice of the US luxury market (i.e. the compact, cramped and hard-riding ATS and even more so with the very limited market “souped up” ATS-V).

      The Cadillacs with classic values have been grudgingly made by recent management, they have had virtually no marketing budget, and they are being taken away despite still strong sales. From a business perspective that makes no sense, but again it’s like Hollywood making content that they want to see personally, rather than what would be of interest to a large swath of the American public.

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  16. There’s no mention of braking, 0 TO 60 times, 1/4 mile times, or any other performance driving numbers!

    They added 17k in options in order to get the ats v to be about the same price! And only added 5k in options to the other car.

    Does the Alfa even come with a carbon brake option? Clearly that would make the price difference between the two be much more!

    They tried to make it seem like both cars are the same price but they really aren’t!

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  17. lol the comment section of anything Cadillac related is always interesting but its really repetitive and tiresome. the old timers swear the answer is a 20 foot long loping V8 boat with two couches and 7 ash trays. the luxury car market is nothing like it was 50 years ago. GM can barely sell their large Buick sedans or their iconic impala nameplate these days. The reason why Cadillac cant sell its sedans is cause GM spent the last 30 years neglecting the brand and tainting its image as an American icon. times have changed and the Germans have made themselves established leaders. new generations think of Mercedes Benz or BMW when they think of luxury. not Cadillac the cheap quality poorly engineered re badged Chevy’s that their parents told them about. To sell cars like the other players you need to directly compete with the other players. JDN is not to blame for anything. A 12 billion dollar budget is a dream for designers and engineers. Cadillac will have a FULL and proper line up in just a couple years for the first time in a very long time. you people need to let this man do his job. every respected main stream luxury brand has a similar formula which is small medium and large sedans with rear wheel drive and good driving dynamics mixed with big SUVs and a line up of crossovers. its the same argument on these posts. this is the best effort from GM in decades to give Cadillac what it needed. a lot of money and proper leadership with a strategy. I personally have faith that Cadillac will do well under its new leadership.

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    1. It just seems hard to believe that a 3 year old brand, Genesis, can build a better Cadillac than Cadillac. Genesis G80 vs CT6 reviews rate it a better luxury car. That’s not even considering the G80’s optional V8. They barely have any dealers and it’s close in sales to the CT6.

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      1. Not True, It is just that Cadillac is not listening. They lost their vision. No leadership.

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    2. I think you misunderstand the Cadillac Mindset. Quality, Large enough for a family, Quick and Efficient. Kind of like a Bentley without the extra 4000 pounds. Cadillac is on the right track, but they stumble in a few areas.
      Much as I tried to teach my son. Take a sheet of paper and put a black spot in the center, Then ask what do you see? A black spot he said.
      What about the 99% of the paper that has no black spots?
      I just had a customer in with a Maserati 4 door car looking for a Cadillac. Last year I sold 3 CT6 3.0 TT to Ferrari owners. They are doing some things right.
      There are a couple black spots here and there.

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      1. See this is why I don’t say a God dam thing to the salesman when I buy something! Car salesmen are the worst and I have little to know respect for them. They do what kiosk can do only problem is that a kiosk can do it better, at a lower cost, and I don’t have to hear about you talking about my purchase later on. And i dont have to hear about your stupid family or what you did last weekend!

        Most salesmen have no clue what they are trying to sale except price they know that stuff!

        I wish you could go to a dealer a sit and talk to a person about the cars they trying to sale but normally you end up knowing more details about the car then they do.

        As for Cadillac they will be just fine you will see Cadillac will sale once the restructure is complete!

        But wanting it done right now is all you people can think of

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        1. Believe that if you want, it is Sales that actually made this countries business grow. Most of the time the sales managers, do not relay information to the salesperson, or what they really will take for the product.
          Granted, a lot of salespeople are order takers, they sit around and wait for something to happen. I see a lot of sales people do not have any idea what they are selling, that is true, look up lazy in the dictionary, and you will find a lot of them under the explanation. A lot of dealers use them for cheap labor. But they bring it on themselves. Our dealership, spent $10,000 per salesperson, of the 10 the owner sent, only 2 of us are left, most quit within a month and moved on. Makes it hard to invest in training.
          As another example, Cadillac requires the sales people to down load for the customer, on their phone, the “My Cadillac” App and show them how to use it. However, GM has no provision for the salespeople to download the app on their own phones so they can understand how it works. So most have no idea what it is.
          You say that you would like to sit and talk about the car you want. I try to do that with my clients, What are they driving now, What they are planning to use the car for, what are their desires, what color they want, equipment, any physical issues they might have. What kind of budget they were hoping to stay within. Often times someone will come in and desire to pay nearly half of what the car costs. Usually they want more than Retail for their trade in. Your salesperson then becomes your buffer between the Dealership, and what you want to do.
          I have been doing this now for 40 years. I love it, It is a new experience every day.
          My complaints, are based on customer comments, not my own likes and dislikes.
          You are welcome to call me any time, and we can get together, even remotely. I have shipped used cars to Europe and the Middle East, and from NY to Fl, Texas, up to Wyoming, and most places along the way. I even have customers from China that have bought cars from me, some take them home, some just use them here.
          Customers are as varied as the vehicles they want.

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    3. Frankiebx, you make some very good points there. I appreciate that you give some explanation for thinking Cadillac will succeed from here. I don’t agree though that those who appreciate classic Cadillac just want to make 20 foot land yachts. The classic Cadillac values can be incorporated into many types of cars, including SUV/CUVs and smaller footprint sedans, and of course I’d love to see a Cadillac convertible again.

      You are right that the $12 billion budget may help the brand (that’s a huge amount for Cadillac), if properly deployed and if GM actually follows through on that promise. I don’t think JDN is the right person to do this (not American, no real background in auto development). And I don’t understand why he wants to take away the angular American styling, one of the few things that gave the ATS-V a “win” over the Giulia in this article. If only the $12 billion were spent developing and marketing modern Cadillacs with the brand values known and appreciated by the American public.

      It’s true that we won’t know the actual sales results until the all-JDN line-up is here and has had a chance to prove itself in the marketplace, which will probably be by 2022 or so. If it’s a disaster, I hope GM will recognize this, rather than giving JDN, Uwe, and Melody ANOTHER 10 years at the high-paycheck trough. And I hope they’ll bring in some Americans who actually like Cadillac’s values and history next time, if there is a next time after JDN.

      IMO there was a much easier and better path for Cadillac, one that did not involved killing the iconic American brand to become a Euro-clone. But that decision has already been made. Meet the “New Cadillac”, not the same as the old Cadillac. Cost of New Cadillac, 12 billion dollars. Killing off Cadillac’s brand identity, and handing the brand to a South African with virtually no qualifications? Priceless.

      Reply
      1. Sorry, but who told you that ur favourite angular styling = American styling?
        Angular stylight is angular styling. That can be used everywhere.
        Just because Cadillac uses it now, it does not mean they should use it forever.
        And a rejection of it or an evolution does not mean a rejection of their traditions.
        Does the 56 Eldorado have an angular styling?
        I hope, you won’t give an example from the 70’s or 80’s, because most of the cars back then had an angular styling lol.

        The way they use it the A&S today is bad. It looks boring.
        I’m not against the A&S, which we see on Elmiraj/Ciel.
        But the A&S that we see on the ATS, CTS, CT6(except for the front) is just MEHHH.
        Don’t worry, its gonna be an evolution. As we can see on their last concept. Softer lines, but still far from the Korean school.

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        1. Rye, where have you been? Cadillac has been defined by angular styling since the 1967 Eldorado (now over 50 years old) at the very least, and the big tailfins of the 50’s were a forerunner of the American lines.

          When the Euro-cars started showing up in the 60’s (VW) and 70’s (everyone else), they were all rounded much like the Yellow and Checker taxis. If you lived in that age (latter 20th century), American cars of all brands were of sharp creases and straight lines, with Cadillac leading the way. Angular styling is an American feature, which JDN intends to end, along with the other traits that made Cadillac the dominant luxury brand for the second half of the 20th century.

          What’s ironic is that the article here praises the ATS-V styling, one of the last vestiges that said “this car is American” as well as “this car is a Cadillac”. But hey, who needs Americans at Cadillac (or CMW as it soon may be called). Enjoy JDN’s Euro-bland cars, you want them, you’ll get them.

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          1. Let’s just wait, Drew.

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          2. What about the Escala concept, which was created under JDN? It still has an angular design, but they made it in an evolutionary way. Just a lil bit softer lines. I think it is a great move. And don’t forget it is a liftback.

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  18. I know you all think JDN did a wonderful job at Infiniti. Infiniti’s are still a Piece of crap, and has no sales to speak of. So using them as a model is not very positive. I wish him all the best in his efforts. Success does generate more success,
    I try to be positive, and look at the bright side of things, dumping the ATS is a good move Redoing the CTS and melding it into the XTS is probably a good move also.
    The CT6 is still the best car they have produced in Years!

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    1. He was bound and limited there. He had lots of projects, which did not get the green light… So that’s why he left.

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    2. Are sales the only thing that defines what a great car is?

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  19. Alpha Romeo quality it’s good to see that Alpha has stayed true to their heritage. Bazinga.

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  20. Great unbiased review!

    I’m a big V performance fan (have owned Vs since 2006), but the winds of change at GM are evident. With GM stock at its high point since the bankruptcy, I don’t see a lot of movement by GM to establish performance leadership outside of the Corvette/Camaro. These V performance holdovers from the Lutz era are likely viewed as a distraction by top brass, when the real problem might be how to make mainstream Cadillacs more profitable and contributing more to the bottom line. Projects like the ATS-V+ that would have shoved a V8 in the ATS have been shelved, supporting this hypothesis.

    So my “bold” prediction for enthusiasts is that the Cadillac lineup will likely become more boring and mundane before it ever gets exciting again. Such is life for a public company working on improving shareholder returns. But you can take consolation in the fact that even BMW has lost the ultimate driving machine status in the name of improving mainstream appeal and profits.

    Look on the bright side, if you invest in GM stock and it continues it’s upward trend, you might be able to buy one of these nifty Alfas in the future with all your gains.

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  21. This is what I notice when I see a comparison of cars when Cadillac is involved. When Cadillac has better engine, better chassis, better braking, better performance over all the people doing will focus on the other things the other cars do better while not giving Cadillac credit for what they got right.

    Then when the competition has better over all performance they then put more of the focus on that.

    It seems they can’t let Cadillac win one moment they focus on performance next moment they focus on focus on interior. Always moving the judgement line so Cadillac can never win.

    Saying a car is better because it has 1 or 2 inches more room in the back is pathetic! I sat in the back of a ATS, CTS, XTS,CT6 and I didn’t have any problems fitting weather it was a 2 door or 4 door version

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  22. I think people love to complain, they are not happy unless they have something to complain about. Nothing is ever perfect for these people. They live miserable lives because nothing is ever good enough for them. They live a life of disappointment, they are constantly looking over the neighbors fence to see what they are missing out on. Instead of buying what they want and being happy with that no matter what your co worker drove to work today!

    I think people today have faiglie egos!

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  23. both nice hot rods + only a wet dream for average income people, but hands down its the sexy ALFA, but BUT no manual transmission would be NO SALE to me!!!

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    1. You people who are hung up on MT need to get a life! It’s about how fast you can get to the finish line

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  24. Has anyone ever visited Sky High Vapor? xx

    Reply

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