Cadillac CTS, ATS Replacements All But Confirmed To Retain RWD Layout
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While we never thought Cadillac would actually move one of its sedans to a front-wheel drive platform, we can nearly squash any remaining rumors surrounding the thought.
AutoGuide recently dug up a clue to the future Cadillac CTS and future Cadillac ATS replacements and it all but confirms the two sedans will continue to ride on the General Motors Alpha platform. Specifically, a LinkedIn profile for one Lisa Graf says that she is a Senior Project Manager at Harman International, the company responsible for premium audio systems such as Harman Kardon, JBL, Mark Levinson and others.
Now, here’s our clue that tips Cadillac’s future sedans. Per the current job description:
Currently serving as the senior program manager on the General Motors E2UL, A2SL and A2LL amplifier program and Faraday Futures speakers.
For those who don’t speak GM code, “A” is the Alpha platform. Currently, the CTS and ATS are classified as A1SL and A1LL, respectively, where “1” stands for first generation, while the “S” refers to a shortened version of the Alpha platform and the “L” translates to the longer variant. The “L” present in both platform codes is GM’s reference to Cadillac, as the letter “C” denotes Chevrolet. Therefore, we can conclude there are short and long-wheelbase Cadillac sedans coming to succeed the ATS and CTS sedans will ride on the Alpha 2 platform that succeeds the first-generation Alpha 1. Cadillac previously confirmed not one, but two new sedans will arrive in the future to “replace” the ATS, CTS and XTS.
For those wondering about the E2UL product code, it refers to the Cadillac XT4 crossover, which is expected to ride on the GM E2 platform — and oddly not the C1 platform. In addition, it’s also safe to say future Cadillac may forego Bose and turn to Harman for premium audio systems.
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Thank you captain obvious.
What is the next new they will have AWD optional?
Not so fast.
If you have been following the recent Cadillac related news closely, especially the Reuters report stating that the XTS, CTS and ATS will be replaced by a single model (which is not the case) and the very nebulous replies by JdN and Cadillac regarding the underpinnings of the vehicles, then it was not as clear before we broke the story of two sedans replacing the CTS and ATS.
Alex as you know there is work being don on the Camaro for new models. As long as there is a Camaro there will be a need for the RWD Cadillac.
The combined sales are needed to survive. The Camaro can not keep the plant open on their own or justify ne platform development at the numbers they are doing alone.
This is why getting the Cadillac and it is important to get the Camaro and Cadillac overseas along with increasing sales.
If the do not get closer to 100k cars in plant it could go the way of the RWD Holden
The Cadillacs will be repositioned and offered in a wider range of trim levels and price. They will be much more different from each other too than they are now.
The bread crumbs were there that RWD was staying the question has only been how they would be arraigned and how many models.
I have owned 15 cadillac sedans. But now I am so disappointed in the brand. They can’t make up their mind about what they want to build. I have the dts, fased out. Want the xts. Which they are fasing out. A number of my friends have left cadillac due to their indecisiveness.the only other car I will buy is the big mercedes. Hate not buying american, but choices are slim.please hire someone with a mind.
You have the CT6 which is close or similar to XTS with a lively personality.
Cadillac use to get slammed by the media for years because their cars were fwd, now Cadillac has fixed this problem and people still complain. I guess it’s impossible to please everybody.
Do people expect Cadillac to build cars specifically for them?
Brian, no Cadillac is expected to build cars for the professional auto writers, period. Those writers prefer RWD and so does 15% of the car-buying public. So now Cadillac will be all RWD and can fight competitively for that 15% of the luxury car market. Ignoring the other 85% makes total sense, because it makes the 15% happier.
Drew, to state the obvious, Cadillac does make both FWD and RWD. Neither type of Cadillac sells because people refuse to pay good money for any vehicle that has a course, unrefined engine, idles poorly, or has transmission issues. People who can afford this class of vehicle can also read and they are two smart to buy crappy cars.
Ex-shareholder, I agree with you regarding the coarse, unrefined engines and fluky transmissions in some Cadillac models/trim levels. This has been a problem whenever they’d gotten away from their core values and tried to chase the Germans (starting with the Cimarron, the V8-6-4, the Catera, etc.).
I’ve long been stating that Cadillac needs to get back to their classic core values, which include refined and reliable motors and transmissions (also roomy seats, plush comfortable rides, strong refined power in all models, all trim levels, angular/elegant styling, up-to-date electronics, not cheap de-contenting of any trim levels – such as vinyl seats and halogen headlights, etc).
Cadillac currently has no core values, other than trying to do whatever BMW does. Which as I’ve said, makes as much sense as McDonald’s shifting from burgers, shakes, and fries – to sausage, sauerkraut, and potato pancakes.
Unfortunately, there’s a value clash between those who would emphasize “sport” and “complex technology” over “luxury” and “reliability”. And under a “sport” oriented person like JDN, that side is going to be emphasized. So Cadillac winds up with some coarse sounding engines, because that’s something you just accept (and even embrace) on the “sports” side. And they’d rather give you an unreliable 8 speed transmission than a reliable 4 speed, because 8 speed looks better (i.e. more complex) on the spec sheet, so that’s a nice “bragging rights” thing for some people. Ask Susan here how much she likes the transmission refinement and reliability of her new CTS with the 8 speed, however.
Regarding FWD or RWD sedans, yes Cadillac currently offers both, although only 1 FWD vs 3 RWD. But all signs point to Cadillac going “all RWD” for their sedans (and probably all vehicles, eventually), hence the topic here.
This luxury vs sporty argument is a joke, Cadillac doesn’t have to pick one or the other. Having a mix of luxury vehicles with different performance levels seems like the smart way to approach the luxury car segment.
I have driven plenty of Cadillac DTS cars and they ride nice but they can’t compare to the ride of a CTS-V.
I say leave the fwd stuff to Buick and chevy make Cadillac rwd so that GM can have the best of both markets.
Now this idea that rwd cars can’t be driven on wet or snowy road is a joke. People have been lead to believe that fwd cars are preferred. For a person that is not racing down a snowy road rwd does just fine. How many two drive trucks drive in the snow? Yea alot with zero problems I might add.
Fwd cars have never been the preferred type of car, the change to place mainly in the 80’s because manufacturers found out that building fwd was cheaper. So for about 25 years we have gotten a steady stream of fwd which for the most part is the only choice a buyer has in a normal car.
The customer never told the manufacturers to build fwd cars! It was driven by cost now people are just use to it!
Do you think people were happy in 1988 when GM switched from rwd to fwd monte carlo? No! This is one of the reasons that the monte carlo is not around anymore! No rwd!
I hope Cadillac picks rwd to go into the future and leaves fwd to Buick and Chevy. And if they lose one customer because of that I am the other customers won’t mind!
Brian, there’s generally a trade off between “sport” and “luxury”. To think you can have both together is like imagining you can have a spicy/bland meal, or a spacious/small house. “Sporty” cars want the driver to feel the road, through the steering wheel and through the seat of their pants, and they want the driver to hear the engine roar; “luxury” cars want the driver to be shielded from vibrations and feel like they are driving on a cushion of air, with a quiet and refined engine. Tell me how Cadillac can choose “both”?
On top of that, “sporty” cars don’t care if the driver is cramped, but that’s a big negative for “luxury” cars. With “sporty” cars, the driver is willing to sacrifice a lot of comfort for “handling”, while a “luxury” driver doesn’t care about being able to drive like a maniac and they don’t want to trade off comfort for handling.
As far as RWD/FWD, I do remember when FWD became popular around 1980, and it was not due to being cheaper to make. People across the northern half of the US loved not being stuck in the snow, or having to carry sandbags for rear ballast, or having to change to snow tires every winter, thanks to the emergence of FWD.
I’ve owned 2 RWD cars myself, and I can tell you that I will never own one again, and that has nothing to do with the cost. Yes I like the extra legroom for my long legs, but mainly I like the traction. I will always buy FWD cars, until no one offers a roomy FWD car. At which point I suppose I will get an AWD (for the traction), but I don’t like those due to the extra weight and lack of legroom, the extra stiffness that generally comes with them, and the idea that I’m throwing away money on something I don’t want. RWD, forget it, not going back to that, ever.
Despite what people here may think due to the circles they run in, RWD has never been the preference of more than 15% of the public. Poll after poll shows that. And test after test shows that most people can’t tell if they are driving a RWD car or FWD car when on dry pavement.
It’s fine for you all to think that Cadillac is headed in the right direction, but the sales results clearly say otherwise. Not just due to RWD but due to the “sport” emphasis over luxury comfort and reliability, and the pure imitation of BMW instead of being an American leader. Cadillac is being destroyed, and it will soon slip from number 5 in the US to 7th or 8th. It was number 1 when it had classic Cadillac values, but those are gone now. Enjoy your “sport luxury” BMW-wannabe Cadillac while it lasts, which won’t be for much longer. I guess it’s fun for some people to see 100 years of history thrown away, but I find it a bit sad, not to mention unnecessary.
Your wrong! There is no trade off! Not today with the technology we have today a suspension can be dialed in to produce the softest ride and then the hardest bone jarring ride. Ever driven a car with MRC? Now they have spool valves shocks that are even more advanced.
When Cadillac was number one their cars were rwd, the industry switched not because customers wanted it it was changed by bean counters. Who realize they could save a buck. You don’t remember when classic cars like the monte carlo, impala, regal, were changed from rwd to fwd? The public was pissed and the monte carlo is not around anymore because of this change, the Impala sells are lagging if the current impala was on a rwd platform then it would sell in higher numbers like the dodge charger! The chevrolet ss doesn’t sell much because there are no cheap lower versions that can be purchased by a family.
You are trying to force your preference on the industry, companies don’t build cars for one person unless you are a millionaire.
You seem to me like this scared guy who’s afraid to drive, you had a scare in the past driving in the snow and now you expect the rest of us to panic like you are!
The cts has three level of performance
Base
V sport
V series
If you can’t find comfort in one of these version then you are just nitpicking trying to find a reason to complain.
You may want to drive around at 40 mph and never hit the red line but there are other people who do that on occasion. And those people are not crazy drivers who have had speeding and reckless driving arrests. So stop making it sound like we get in our cars and do donuts and power slides everywhere we go.
Now if your old bones can’t take the jarring (which is a joke) then go to another manufacturer and try to get them to change. Stop asking Cadillac to change for you!
Now I am going to go out on a limb here and say if Cadillac made all the changes you want. You would then look even harder to find something to complain about! Your happy unless things are not done your way which says a lot about your character! My way or no way!
Brian, there’s always a trade-off between sports and luxury, unless you are talking about an ultra-expensive car like the MB S-class. Cadillac doesn’t make anything like that, despite the wannabe claims for the CT6.
As far as Magnetic Ride Control (MRC), yes that’s nice in theory – you COULD make a car with a smooth ride, that tightens up some for curves and such. In reality you can only get MRC on the top Cadillac trim levels, but those top trim levels are already made extra-sporty with harder suspensions and larger wheels (i.e. even lower profile tires) than on the base models.
What Cadillac is doing is to use MRC to make a really stiff ride somewhat more bearable, instead of using it to give a very comfortable ride better handling. There are no MRC settings in any version of the ATS, CTS, or CT6 that yield anything approaching the plus comfortable ride known as “The Cadillac Ride”, back when Cadillac was the number 1 selling luxury car in the USA. The current offerings of RWD Cadillac sedans are stiff or stiffer, regardless of the existence of MRC or the “plushest” possible setting.
So yes, there’s a trade off between “sport” and “luxury”, and Cadillac has chosen to give up their “luxury” ride for a “sport” one. Cars like the ATS actually ride even more stiffly than the German cars of comparable size (hey we out-Germaned the Germans!), and guess what – Cadillac sales keep falling.
I wish we could see into the future, so that we could find out if Cadillac’s current “imitate BMW” strategy will succeed, or continue to fail. Until then, both sides can imagine we will be correct. I feel very confident that Cadillac will continue to fail under this strategy, but I won’t be happy to be right about that.
So the reason that over 94% of the compact, midsize and full-size luxiry sedans sold in the US are based on RWD platforms is because they are built for auto writers?
Or is it because people who actually buy these cars value the inherent dynamic benefits that a RWD car delivers, without necessarily knowing that its RWD.
When expanded to the global market, 98.9 percent of total luxury passenger cars are based on RWD layouts.
Alex Luft, first I disagree with your totals there. All of the Audi luxury sedans are on FWD platforms, and Audi as a brand accounts for about 10% of US luxury sales. Then there are the top of the line Volvo -90 series sedans, also FWD platform. And the Lincoln sedans are all FWD. And the Cadillac XTS. And while not a sedan, the high selling Cadillac XT5 is on a FWD platform.
But without arguing the exact number, yes the majority of today’s luxury sedans are on RWD platforms. Yet only 15% of car buyers actually express a preference for RWD. So yes, the reason that the majority of luxury sedans are RWD is because that’s what the automakers are making. Cadillac for example has 3 of their 4 sedans as RWD. And in a few years it will be 100% RWD – so if you want a new Cadillac sedan in about 5 years, you get RWD, you have no choice. I’m guessing that as soon as Cadillac goes to 100% RWD sedans, then 100% of the new sedan sales will be RWD.
Now how are the professional auto writers driving the move to RWD? Because they are in the 15% that sees cars as toys rather than transportation, and they love to “drift” their RWD cars, it feels really cool and fun to them. So they deride FWD cars as “boring”, because they lack that “drift” feel when pressed hard. And to these people, FWD cars are not just “boring” but “cheap”, because it costs more to make RWD cars than FWD cars.
So those professional auto writers will knock off points for any FWD models vs. RWD models, plus they’ll make additional comments of “boring” and “cheap”. The average luxury car buyer doesn’t know why RWD is “better” but that’s what he’s been told, and he wants the high-rated car over the low-rated one, he wants the “exciting” car as he’s been told, not realizing that excitement is going to mean some exciting accidents in winter, unless he lives in a desert. And of course he doesn’t want the “cheap” luxury car, if he cars about sticking it to his neighbor with his status symbol.
Alex, you made a very astute comment recently that certain cars have overly complex engines and transmissions simply because their buyers liked the “bragging rights” of that complexity, even though the utility was no better than a less complex design (I’m paraphrasing, but I think that was your point). It’s much the same with RWD today, as the “bragging rights” people are more concerned with how their neighbors will view their vehicles than the way they actually function. Again, since the professional auto writers are telling them that RWD is “best”, that’s what they go with. So then the car companies make more RWD vehicles, and the average consumer is left with no choice these days.
Alex, let me ask you this – do you think that most high end luxury sedans have low-profile tires today, because that’s what the public really wants? Or is it simply because that’s an auto-maker driven fad, and the public has no choice? I doubt most of the public truly wants the very tiny increase in “handling” that they get for low-profile tires, in exchange for a much rougher ride and higher repair/maintenance bills on their tires and suspensions. But offer only low-profile tires on 100% of all new luxury sedans, and amazingly you’ll find that 100% of new luxury sedan buyers “choose” cars with low-profile tires.
Then again, luxury sedan sales are not very good these days, compared with luxury CUV sales, which tend not to have the RWD and low-profile tire fetish of today’s “luxury” sedans. Could there be a connection? Hmmm.
But today’s auto execs will never admit that they are missing sales by failing to build – and advertise the merits of – cars that the majority of the public would actually find to be useful and enjoyable. Instead they look to the professional auto writers to tell them what to build, because they know that if they build it (to the professional writer’s desires) then the positive reviews will come.
Even if I believed in what you are saying which I am not, GM has every right to make Cadillac’s lineup rwd because GM has Buick for that.
The other manufacturers don’t have this luxury.
This is exactly how GM should build its luxury brands.
Cadillac rwd
Buick fwd
Chevrolet fwd/rwd
Brian, Buick doesn’t come close to Cadillac in terms of luxury. Buicks don’t have the room, comfort, luxury, or styling that Cadillacs traditionally had. There’s a reason Cadillac was the number 1 US luxury brand, and it had nothing to do with “sports” performance. Buick is actually the GM brand (of the two) that should be the “sports” brand, given the history of cars like the Buick Grand National. Otherwise, GM should have made Corvette into a separate brand, and let Cadillac remain Cadillac.
Buick should not be Cadillac, they should be Buick. I don’t care what you think of Cadillac and Buick for that matter. And majority of your posts about Cadillac being harsh and chasing after BMW is far from true.
I have a ’15 Buick Regal 2.4 in-line 4 Fleet that I bought couple of months ago and love it. The car is bullet proof reliable. The car is very refined, smooth, ride supple over bumps and potholes, adequate power and sufficient mix of luxury and technology to be satisfied with. The brakes and steering feeling excellent with feedback to the hands and feet. Also, the car has an excellent balance of ride and handling. IMO, this vehicle comes close to being a Cadillac which it is trying not to be but have its own personality.
The styling of the current regal is gorgeous same as for the other Buicks of that design era. The current Lacrosse I don’t care for but take it or leave it if give to me for free.
Drew – you’re either off completely or partially in your way of thinking. I’ll stay up late to reply, which is not a luxury I always have.
First, my statistics are correct in regards to FWD vs. AWD. You state that Audis are front-drive based, and to a certain extent you are correct. But as I have stated time and time again, you can’t really count Audi as being FWD because the way they do FWD is different from everyone else. Are you familiar with the differences? If not, I will explain.
Starting with the A4 and Q5 and up (A5, A6, A7, A8, Q7, upcoming A9, Q6 and Q8), the majority of Audi models have a longitudinal powertrain configuration, thereby resulting in better weight distribution and, by association, better driving dynamics than a FWD car with a transverse powertrain placement. No other car sold today is set up the way the aforementioned Audis are. That’s what makes them so attractive from an engineering and driving perspective: Audis generally tend to not exhibit the inferior driving tendencies and characteristics associated with other FWD cars. They are better balanced, more stable, and thus are much more engaging and fun to drive. Because of this longitudinal configuration, they can also take much more powerful and much larger engines than traditional FWD cars can, and their drivetrain can handle the power. This applies to the majority of Audis on the market.
Outside of that, about 75% of Audi models A4/Q5 and up are actually sold as quattro AWD with 65/75 percent of the power being sent to the rear wheels. They might as well be RWD, since Audi is trying to emulate RWD with its quattro setup. Again, only a small handful of Audis in the classes discussed here are actually sold as FWD, and the ones that are, are much better than typical FWD vehicles. That is and advantage that no other automaker in the world has due to engineering differences that are deeply engrained within the core of Audi because of the unique quattro system and the way it is configured within the vehicle. It is something that GM (or any other automaker) doesn’t have. When GM (or anyone else, for that matter) builds a FWD car, they build it not like Audi does, but like every other automaker in the world does. There is nothing unique, there are no inherent engineering advantages, and therefore it is as plebian and as incapable as a Chevrolet Cavalier… no matter how much tuning and suspension work you do.
So, the point about Audis being FWD is moot. They are not FWD… they are FWD with an asterisk. And even then, the overwhelming majority of Audis A4 and up are sold as quattro AWD.
Moving right along, the reason that the overwhelming majority of luxury cars continue to utilize a RWD layout has NOTHING TO DO with auto journalists. It has to do with the fact that people… that’s right, normal, regular people who buy luxury cars like the BMW 320i and BMW 328i/330i can tell the difference between a car that drives and handles well vs. one that does not. And it just so happens that the cars that drive well, as measured by the masses, are the ones that are RWD or RWD-biased AWD.
That right there is the choice being made on a daily basis by consumers in the real world. They’re not picking RWD/RWD-based cars because they are inferior or because they have no other choice or because they are following what writers say in a review or a website or a magazine. Not at all. Normal, regular people are picking RWD/RWD-based AWD luxury cars and paying solid sums of money for them because they want a car that drives well, that puts a smile on their face, that feels as solid as a rock at highway speeds. And those factors are ones that are typically delivered by a RWD/RWD-based car. Again, no one is “forcing” people to buy these cars or because of some other factor like limited choice, as you suggest. They always can choose to buy Volvo, Lincoln or Acura… or the Lexus ES or the Cadillac XTS. But in the grand scheme of things, very few do so.
Go ahead and put any “normal” person who has no bias on the topic of RWD vs. AWD vs. FWD in any of the compact, midsize or full-size luxury cars on the market today and tell them to drive them for a week. You take the badges off and don’t show them the price tag… in other words, you do what is called in the industry a blind clinic. What you will see is that an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of these people will pick the RWD-based offerings over and over and over again. They will do so purely based on the feel, the sensation, the joy of driving these cars… it is intangible to them, they don’t know why it’s better, but they know that it feels better — just like a Parker pen feels better to write with than a BIC. This, in part, describes some of the decision making factors in the strategy for the first-generation ATS and third-gen CTS.
I have been part of such studies several times in my life and it always works out this way. With the badges covered up, Acura and Volvo seldom win. Lincoln never wins except with the set that is way too old to drive, and don’t buy cars or are on their last car. This has been true for almost two decades now. Audi consistently lost in these studies as well until it got its act together and switched to an architecture with an longitudinally-mounted drivetrain that it now uses across its vehicle range with the A4/Q5 and up, starting with the B7/B8 generation and newer, followed by other Audi models.
This resulted in Audi sales picking up… way up, and this was no accident: they made a better driving car. People took notice. And the engineering work that came along with moving that engine and transmission longitudinally, resulting in the car driving better, also brought with it secondary advantages: it enabled designers to pen a car with elements that in normal society are associated with luxury and premium — a longer dash-to-axle ratio being one of these cues.
Let’s talk about auto journalists: in discussing them, we really need to set the basis for understanding this topic. First, these guys know what they’re doing and their job is to talk about a car and how it drives, feels, etc. Nowadays you also have to talk about the overall experience, which includes the in-vehicle technology, the fuel economy, etc. They drive more cars in a year than most people do throughout their lives. And best of all, they have no agenda. Their job is not to make sure the world buys RWD cars by the boatload.
Now, only about 10-15 percent of the car-buying public even listens to (or reads) automotive publications where said auto journalists have a voice. In other words, the majority of the car-buying public DOES NOT READ OR LISTEN TO automotive journalists. They just don’t. They do their research online (mostly as it relates to pricing and rates), go to dealership(s), test drive the cars they are interested in, and buy/lease. That’s the sales funnel for these vehicles. Only a few go in having read a publication’s thoughts or reviews.
Furthermore, what’s this about drifting? I know many a journalist in this industry. I can count on a single hand how many “drift” their cars. Most don’t care whatsoever about doing that. They, like most other “normal” people who buy cars, also want a car that drives well and that they enjoy in every sense that word.
Outside of that, do you know how difficult it is to “drift” a car? I imagine you don’t, so here’s a very brief overview: not only do you need to know how to drive a car to make it drift, but you also need to configure the car do be able to do that, including setting up the proper suspension geometry, tires, and being on the right course to do so. This is highly expensive and time-consuming and most auto journos do not do this. Heck, our own Manny Katakis auto-crosses his Chevy Volt (FWD). I do handling courses and driving challenges in my Cadillac ATS. But drifting? Next you’ll say that we all like to do zero-gravity training, and in doing so, most other “normal” people will want to follow suit “just because” auto journos wrote about it, right? Wrong. Not at all.
Ultimately, people are not stupid when it comes to making major purchase decisions like a car, the second-largest purchase in a regular person’s lifetime. People decide what they like on their own accord. And there is a reason why the majority of the cars offered by the most successful luxury automakers are RWD or RWD-based: because people can still tell a difference between a well-engineered product and one that was engineered half-assed. In this case, a well-engineered luxury product is RWD or RWD-based. A half-a$$ed one is FWD/FWD-based (Audi excepted).
As for your comment about the XT5 being on a FWD platform: of course this is true. However, the “why” is just as important. At the present time, GM has no RWD platform that supports a crossover. This was a planning error rooted in GM way back in 2010. Neither Alpha nor Omega support crossovers. VSS-R could support it, but that’s about 5 years out. So Cadillac’s only choice was to use existing GM crossover platforms for its CUVs… a move that’s far from ideal for the brand. The alternative was to spend twice the amount of time to deliver three Cadillac crossovers — the XT4, XT5 and XT7. This was simply not an option… due to the opportunity… so the answer was to use “lesser” platforms in order to push the product out the door faster. Let’s wait and see what happens with the replacements to these crossovers. My bet is that at least one or two of these switch to a FR (RWD-based) layout so as to better compete with BMW, MBZ, Jaguar, Maserati, Alfa Romeo and Land Rover in the 2020-2025 timeframe.
Regarding my comment of complex engines vs. those that are not: yes, the luxury car buyer continues to be somewhat snobby in certain segments. This is the reason for GM developing the 3.6L V-6 LF3/LF4 Twin-Turbo motors for the ATS-V and CTS V-Sport over the LT1, which is just as if not more powerful, while weighing less, being less complex and having better power delivery and sound characteristics, with equal or better fuel economy. Was this driven by journos? Not at all.
Speak to any automotive journalist and s/he will tell you that they would have preferred the 6.2L LT1 V-8 with its comparatively “old-school” layout/design over the boosted sixes in the aforementioned vehicles. The move appears to have been driven by a snobby subset of the luxury buyer — the people who buy cars in the segments occupied by the ATS-V and CTS-V. Auto journos were not responsible for this.
As for your comment about low-profile tires: every BMW, Cadillac, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus and Audi offers cars with tires that are not rated or considered “low profile”. That’s what the “regular” subset of the customers are fine with. The sporty variants of the same vehicles offer low-profile tires… but that’s what that subset of the market asks for. Different tires for different applications. What seems to be the problem?
All in, the “majority” of the auto-buying public are already buying the cars that they want. But you say this:
“But today’s auto execs will never admit that they are missing sales by failing to build – and advertise the merits of – cars that the majority of the public would actually find to be useful and enjoyable. Instead they look to the professional auto writers to tell them what to build, because they know that if they build it (to the professional writer’s desires) then the positive reviews will come.”
It sounds like you’re suggesting that there is a conspiracy of some kind… and there simply isn’t. I assume this kind of thinking is your lack of experience or knowledge of this industry, so I’ll attempt to briefly shed some light on it based on my experience and the experience of various friends and family members who have either worked for or still do work in the auto industry.
The verdict of an “auto writer” isn’t at all important in the process of developing a vehicle. Companies like GM, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi all make product decisions with a laser focus on the customer. No automaker, no auto executive, and no other person in the business of making or marketing automobiles sets out to build a car that will be well-reviewed or liked by a journalist. They are not the ones who buy the cars. The auto journalist is NEVER the focus and to appease them is never the goal. It’s ludicrous for you to even suggest that, if that’s is, in fact, what you’re suggesting. Instead, the aforementioned companies set out to build THE BEST CAR FOR THE CUSTOMER and market segment at the set-out price point. No one is even remotely worried about the journalist.
Ultimately, it appears that you’re at a time of crisis: what the the people have, by far and large, agreed upon as being the standard of luxury vehicles (RWD) does not line up with your personal principals/dogma on the subject. If that is the case, then that is a very tough place to be.
You’re fighting this battle of RWD vs. FWD… but the battle has already been won… the people have spoken, the history books have been written and closed, and the industry has responded with appropriate product. What you’re doing is the equivalent of arguing the benefits of Betamax over VHS in the year 2017, despite that battle having been determined 30 years ago… much like the one over RWD vs. FWD.
Alex Luft – in your original comment you wrote that over 94% of luxury sedans sold were based on an RWD platform, and I mentioned Audi (among others). You can argue until you are blue in the face that Audi sedans are not “really” FWD, and I can disagree – but – whatever the Audi A class is, it’s NOT RWD. So your 94% RWD stats are clearly wrong, immediately.
As far as driver preference, you claim that if you give the average driver a FWD car, AWD car, and RWD car (of any size) and let them drive them for a week (each?) – the majority will pick the RWD car. Really? Where is that coming from? I have seen NO polls that indicate that more than 15% of the public actually prefers the RWD experience – even on dry pavement. In fact a lot of polls show that the vast majority of drivers can’t tell if they are driving RWD or FWD, when on dry pavement. Furthermore, does your test week include snow, ice, and other slippery conditions such as driving on wet leaves? So you are obviously transferring your own biases or beliefs to the general public. Your preferences and even the preferences of your auto industry colleagues are NOT the same as the general public.
As far as “the battle being over”, the FWD camp could have said the same thing in the 1980’s and 1990’s. At that point, FWD had eclipsed RWD by a wide margin in the auto industry, even though RWD had ruled through the 1950’s, and only when innovative FWD cars like the 1967 Cadillac Eldorado came along, did people start to see the benefits of FWD.
The fact is, RWD was virtually dead in the USA, except for the few “muscle” cars for “fast n’ furious” drivers like the Camaro. Ford even considered making the Mustang FWD numerous times in order to respond to the market, though they never actually made that change.
Currently RWD has come back, and it’s a fad just as much as low-profile tires, which themselves are as much a fad as whitewalls, which come and go over long periods of time. In fact the whole “sports sedan” thing is a very recent fad, which will fade for the general public. Sure there will always be the hard core 15% that truly prefers RWD, but the vast majority of luxury buyers just aren’t interested in whatever benefits RWD supposedly gives them. They buy RWD cars now because 1) they have no choice, 2) that’s what the professional auto writers tell them to buy, and/or 3) FWD is derided as “cheap” and those looking for status symbols in their cars want others to know they cost a lot of money. But the people have not spoken, and ultimately the shift could be back to FWD. At the very least, AWD majority will replace RWD, but FWD has functional advantages over AWD (weight, legroom, suppleness) in addition to the economic benefits (less costly, better milage).
As far as tires, people are not “choosing” low profile tires today, the reality is that the have (or think they have) no choice. What’s laughable is that the higher luxury trim models often have lower profile tires than the “base” models. So if you want a car with a better stereo, sunroof, built-in navigation, etc. then you have to get the one with the skinny, jarring, maintenance-costly tires. Yes the “performance” versions of cars do go even more low-profile, but all are very low-profile compared with those of past decades. I guess you aren’t old enough to remember those days, when 60 profiles were considered low, and 70 was more typical, not the 40’s (or lower) of today. But today’s luxury cars have tires which are low-profile and even-lower-profile. It’s hard to find even a base version of a luxury car today with wheels smaller than 19″. That’s a fad that will end within a decade.
Similarly RWD for luxury cars is a fad that’s been pushed on us by a 15% minority, it is not the actual choice of the vast majority. Fads come and go, and yes the professional auto writers do have a huge amount of influence. For example, professional auto writers not only love RWD cars, they hate digital speedometers with a passion. Back in the 1980’s, digital speedometers were loved by the public, but the auto writers pretty much killed them by the 21st century. They are now making a slight comeback, thanks to iconoclasts like Tesla, but they will always be hated and derided by the professional auto writers. I’m sure those writers wanted to claim victory and say “it’s over, done deal, digital speedometers will never come back”, but the fact is that these things can and will change.
Ahahaha I noticed that Alex didn’t respond to your comment Drew, could it possible be cause you used facts, and (much like today’s liberals) he got scared and had to find his safe space.
Right now, Cadillac reminds me of the forgotten middle child, who eventually turned to drugs. Caddy is now the Lux. version of a druggie, and one of 2 things is gonna happen,
1. Caddy finds some decent leadership and actually listens to their customers, and not people who will never even look at a Cadillac.
2. they will “overdose” and die, leaving behind a long, and prominent history, especially here in America, where it was (sadly) forgotten.
Personally I’d prefer option 1, but then again, I’m just the customer… what do I know.
I have also had 15 new Cadillacs and I loved them all, including my 1988 Allante. I currently have a 1017 CTS and 2012 SRX. Both are great cars. In my opinion the CTS provides as much luxury and performance as anything out of German, including Mercedes and BMW and, and at a significantly lower price. And its better looking than all of them. can only hope and pray that they don’t screw up the CTS by making it smaller. The problem with Cadillac is the AD campaign Dare realty SUCKS!!!
I could be wrong but I believe that the cts will be smaller than the Ct6. So it looks like both the ats and cts will get smaller
Ats. Small
Cts. Med
Ct6. Large
I know Cadillac is going to change the name of their cars
They won’t get smaller. There is nowhere to go smaller. Expect the cars to remain roughly the same size as now but the features, content and price points will be restructured.
The sizes will remain roughly the same as today, since there is nothing really wrong with the sizes to begin with. It’s the other details outside of sizing the need to be addressed.
I bought the 2003 and 2008 CTS–those were perfect in size–the new CTS is a tad too long–the sweet spot is 191 to 192 inches in length.
The segments have moved since the second gen CTS.
The new compact lux segment (C-segment) has grown to about 184-186 inches in length for a RWD-based car while the new midsize lux segment has grown to be about 195 inches in length, also for a RWD-based car.
Offering anything outside of those sizes will return Cadillac to the same issue created by the first and second generation CTS: one car to take on two segments.
This doesn’t work well competitively because one car can’t equal what two cars can in terms of sales volume, and associated profits. That’s the business end of it.
Then there’s the customer end: buyers of the first and second gen CTS became “trained” to expect a tweener in size and price. Then when the properly-sized and properly-priced segment-specific cars came out (ATS, gen 3 CTS), these customers couldn’t afford to get the new CTS and didn’t want to “downgrade” to an ATS. Hence, leaving Cadillac in the same predicament it is now – having to build up the audience for both cars from almost nothing.
Had Cadillac had cars like the ATS and gen 3 CTS initially 12 years ago in the appropriate segments, this issue would not have existed – as both models would have built up their own reputation and customer base, without creating the expectation of getting something a bit bigger than a compact luxury car for the price of a compact luxury car.
The CTS is already smaller than the CT6. One of the main complaints about the CTS was small back seat area and small trunk capacity.When the change to the CT5 to address those issues they may have to make it larger not smaller. They can grow the Alpha. Look at the Chinese long wheelbase version.
If you need a bigger car then buy a Ct6 the cts needs to stay the same size or be smaller!
FrankR: I totally agree with you: have had 16 Cadillacs since I was 40; currently own a 2016 ATS Premium with every available option –fantastic vehicle. I also have a 1992 Allante that I have owned since 1994. Still looks like new–have had many years and miles of enjoyment from it.
FWD offers much better traction in snow than RWD, and also yields more legroom for the driver and passengers. Therefore, awesome news that Cadillac will no longer be offering any FWD sedans once the XTS dies out.
FWD offers some traction advantages in the snow from a stand-still, while RWD offers others — such as the ability to correct a skid/slide and prevent an accident. This quality is impossible on FWD cars.
That said, if you’re talking about driving a luxury car in a climate that snows, you’re getting one with AWD as over 95% of the luxury cars sold in climates that “receive snow” are so equipped in the U.S.
As far as packaging advantages of FWD: they do exist, but are very minimal and are NOT reasons for not buying a car in the segment. No one is complaining about the lack of legroom in a 3 series or C-Class or A4 (which is packaged like a rear-drive vehicle, as per my verbose comment above).
Alex Luft, I don’t agree that FWD is only helpful in snow/slippery conditions when the car first starts to move. I’ve driven plenty of both RWD and FWD cars, I’ve done a 720-degree spin in snow on a highway, and a 180-degree spin on wet leaves, both in RWD cars. I’ve never had more than a minor slip in FWD, and that was probably due to bad tires. The last time I saw a car spinning its wheels in a snowy parking lot, it was a Hyundai Genesis. Sure enough that’s a RWD luxury car.
I’m not sure what you love so much about RWD, you claim that most people want it, but I really haven’t seen a good explanation of why you like it so much. Yes it costs more, that’s great. Yes you can have torque steer in a poorly designed FWD car, if you floor it from a dead stop. But for normal drivers on normal roads, what is the big thrill of RWD? And is that thrill really so great that you’d rather pay the extra cost, lose the legroom, and have that “exciting” loss of traction, just to have RWD instead of FWD? I honestly don’t get it. Donuts, anyone? Mmmm… donuts!
Leave the fwd business for Buick!
The big time is for rwd and it should be Cadillac
People have been complaining that Cadillac’s were FWD. for years now and now that they are going back to RWD. it upsets the other crowd .
As long as these two new cars are also offered with a AWD option that should please most everyone . That was a major mistake the Chevy Impala made not offering AWD. for people living in the north that feel they need it .
I thought the new CT5 would grow in size between the old XTS and CTS and the CT4 would be placed inbetween the current CTS and ATS , they were being called ” tweeners ” !?!
For the record, it is wasn’t Autoguide that “dug up” this information, I found it and posted it on GMInsidenews, they then wrote an article based on my post which Autoguide repeated.
If that’s case, we would love to hear about it first next time!
You can let us know about it here:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/tip-us/
I had a 2006 CTS with 18″ wheel performance package when it was time for new the CTS had gotten too big, so my wife intervened and suggested we get the 2013 SRX Premium which has been very good and I love its style. I then got my ATS Performace which was perfect size for me like the 2006 CTS. For the market I still think the ATS upper models are some of the best drivers cars Cadillac has ever built, hopefully that remains an they upscale the interiors to match performance.
I think one of Cadillac’s problem is packaging. It seems that they can’t get the same interior and trunk space from a vehicle with practically the same exterior size as the competition.To that you can add unrefined engines and transmissions, fit and finish and quality of material. The have the handling down pat now they just need to work on the rest of the stuff that makes a vehicle stand out in a crowded field.
Why no more You Tube vidoes from you guys anymore ? I actually ran into the site yesterday and all of them were 4-5 years old . You should go back to doing them .
Some journalists are always ( it seems ) going to lean towards cars that are of a more sporty nature . If a little research is done Cadillac has been trying to capture the Germans since the oil crisis of the mid 70’s . The STS is a good example .
I think whatt we are starting to see is a slight shift in consumer attitudes towards a mote compliant ride and not cars that have stiff suspensions . Luxury cars for consumers are now looking for something abit smoother and not as harsh as what Cadillac seems to be trying to emulate .
There was a time that most all cars were RWD based and even those of us that live in snow country like Michigan for example learned how to drive those cars in winters that were truly a ” real ” winter when it snowed from Thanksgiving until Easter . And if your parents owned an Eldorado or Toronado ( like my folks did ) you felt you could plow through anything .
There are some people that can tell the difference if a car is pulling you down the road or pushing you , and from what I’ve read most luxury car buyers want to be pushed . There is a huge difference between how different each one drives . The public seems to think that they ” need ” an AWD or 4WD drive vehicle to get through the winter but that is only because that is what they have been used to driving for years now . It’s what was all that was offered from GM and others .
As a kid in the 80’s it was normal to go to a parking lot full of fresh snow and do donuts in your RWD car , it’s kind of hard to do that with an AWD machine .
So Cadillac going back to RWD is a sign that maybe they are listening to what consumers want in their luxury cars .
“As a kid in the 80’s it was normal to go to a parking lot full of fresh snow and do donuts in your RWD car , it’s kind of hard to do that with an AWD machine . So Cadillac going back to RWD is a sign that maybe they are listening to what consumers want in their luxury cars .”
If you look at cars as toys for boys to play with, then obviously RWD is your thing. If you look at cars as transportation vehicles for adults, like the other 85% of the public, then RWD is not your choice. The move to RWD is driven by the professional auto writers, who obviously never outgrew their “Hot Wheels” phase.
Drew you are so quick to jump on peoples views .
Incase you didn’t understand or even read my post I said as a ‘ kid ” . If you look at were most luxury cars are headed with their drivetrains it’s either AWD as an option or RWD . Look at the new division of Hyundai , Genesis , their new flagship is RWD or you can option for AWD .
Not sure about your 85% , that sounds a bit high to me . Even Bob Lutz made a comment about ” enthusiasts to drive while they can ” . There is a huge population that looks at driving as more than getting groceries .
There is even commercials for Infinity that show a dad driving his SUV with attitude ( enthusiast ) until he picks his kids up from school .
I don’t believe for a New York minute that the trend back to RWD is driven by Hot Wheels journalists . They don’t have that much clout in the Automotive World . They are only writers that get paid to write opinion pages on the latest in the world of automobiles .
If it wasn’t for those Hot Wheel boys we would never of had the GTO or Mustang .
Zach, speaking of Bob Lutz, I remember seeing a comment from him saying that he was really only interested in producing “sporty” cars, and most of the auto executives he knew were the same way. They only made the other cars because they “had” to, to some extent.
Clearly when the executives are biased to the “sporty” side (more than the public), and the auto writers are biased that way too, it’s easy to see how “sporty featured” cars get overproduced, especially in the USA and Germany (Lutz is Swiss-American by the way). Japan seems somewhat less interested in the “sporty” side of driving, possibly because the crowded roads there don’t allow for much of that type of driving, and being stuck in traffic makes them lean more toward the “comfort” side.
The thing is, while US auto executives and auto writers get excited about track times on the Nurburgring, the majority of the public doesn’t care about that – especially since there’s no chance to go anywhere close to 200 mph on US roads. Again, the net result is that the public gets offered cars that they don’t particularly want or need; meanwhile the car companies fail to advertise features like a nice roomy comfortable reliable ride, because those things don’t interest them personally, further shrinking that potential market. Today’s drivers don’t even know that they don’t have to put up with stagecoach-like jarring rides, because no one has shown them an alternative.
I don’t know how you can say that the professional auto writers don’t have huge influence on what is produced. The auto companies know what the professional auto writers like, so they try to make sure their cars will get great reviews by giving the auto writers what they want. The current Cadillac is a great example. How many times have you read that the current RWD Cadillac get great reviews in the auto press, but don’t sell particularly well to the public? Yet Cadillac keeps doubling down on a losing strategy, pleasing the auto reviewers but not the legacy Cadillac customers.
Here’s another example, Toyota. Normally Toyota was the one company that didn’t care that the auto press derided their cars as “boring” (because they didn’t have “feel the road” sport vibrations, stiff rides, stiff sport handling), but they were happy to sell huge numbers of cars to the public.
But at the start of the latest generation Camry and Avalon, they went to stiffer rides and tighter steering in order to get better reviews from the auto press. And it worked, at least with the auto press. Sure enough, those cars got much better reviews than normal, because the ride and steering was no longer “boring”. But the public hated it, and a year or two after the introduction, Toyota quietly went back to the relaxed ride on both models. They just didn’t tell the auto reviewers about this change. It’s now well-known that if you want a nice-riding Camry or Avalon, don’t get one made in the first or second year of the new model. Thanks auto reviewers, for screwing up cars that people already liked.
Now I’m not saying that there’s a “conspiracy” of auto writers to push the carmakers and public into stiff-riding & RWD cars (note, those are two different things, I realize that RWD cars don’t have to be stiff-riding). But what happens is that the pro auto writers have their biases, they seem to want every car to have a “sports ride”, whether it’s an actual sports car, a luxury sedan, an economy car, a minivan, a golf cart, or an SUV. That’s just what they like, similar to Bob Lutz. The public sees the net result of the reviews however, and they want a car that is “top rated”, without understanding why the car got those high marks. The auto makers are already biased to making sporty cars, and can easily be persuaded, especially when they KNOW their cars will be well-reviewed, if the ride is biased toward the sport side.
As to cars like the GTO or the Mustang, that’s fine. There’s always a niche for the 15% who truly love that type of car. Not to mention the old guys or other inadequate-feeling guys that will buy a “sporty” car to try to give themselves a certain image, even if they don’t particularly like the ride. But Cadillac is a luxury brand, not a sports brand. Same for a basic family car like a Toyota Camry. If you want a sporty car, get one. But I’m tired of the professional auto writers trying to turn EVERY car into a sporty car. And – they don’t sell well, once the public figures out what’s going on. That’s partly why SUV’s sell so well today, and it’s definitely not because of their “sport handling” capabilities.
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