Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen went on the record to clear up any confusion surrounding its range-topping Cadillac CT6 sedan: it’s not being canceled and that was never up for debate.
Now that that’s been said, the Cadillac chief did share some more interesting news about the luxury brand’s two other sedans. Specifically, de Nysschen stated the Cadillac CTS and Cadillac ATS will not receive “natural successors” and Cadillac wants to “rebalance [its] sedan portfolio.”
He made the comments when speaking to Jalopnik about the rumored death of the Cadillac CT6, but what he means by “natural successors” isn’t totally clear; de Nysschen then said the product restructuring will ultimately result in three Cadillac sedans of which the CT6 will be the “senior”.
“The vehicles that are under development as you and I speak will have the net result that Cadillac ultimately will have three sedan entries, of which CT6 will be the most senior,” de Nysschen told Jalopnik.
“We will be able to much more clearly separate the market position, both in terms of target customer demographics, in terms of market segments and in terms of price points between these three sedan lineups.”
Keeping in mind the CT6 is so far being referred to as the range-topping sedan, we can interpret this info in various ways:
- The replacements for the ATS and CTS could become larger or smaller, thus giving more room for the CT6 full-size to compete and better differentiating the nameplates
- The ATS could go away and a smaller (possibly front-drive) Cadillac sedan could take its place
- The replacement for the ATS and CTS is combined into one vehicle, while a new sedan arrives to make up the third car
- The replacements for the ATS and CTS may not be “traditional” sedans but rather adopt a liftback configuration, as previewed by the Escala concept
Those are simply speculative thoughts, but one thing is certain: Cadillac’s portfolio is about to change greatly.
Comments
Whatever they do, it will be aligned with the new #1 market for the brand, China. The ATS-L sells well there, so there will be a “successor” for that car for China. Probably some sort of updated alpha platform sedan/hatch? They should give up on the rear drive small sedan and go FWD/AWS a’la Audi A3 Also, fewer and fewer care about driving dynamics and performance. Luxury and technology should be the focus.
The foot print of these three sedans will be spread out a bit more. Right now the he CTS, CT6 and XTS are all stepping on each other.
All three are products of previous Cadillac management All with much different thinking let alone not any of the present managements thinking.
This has left 3 cars in the line up leaving a confusing message that soon will be cleared up.
See the is not falling.
Adopting a tweener portfolio would be best in terms of serving China and arguing value over competitors in the US. CT6 is really a tweener; priced like a 5 Series but sized like a 7 Series. The second gen CTS was the same formula; priced like a 3 Series, but sized closer to a 5 Series, and that car sold very well.
Here’s what could change:
CT2 – ATS falls to a $30,000 entry level 2 Series price area, but sized between that and a 3 Series.
CT4 – CTS goes back to a 3 Series price area, but sized between a 3 and a 5 Series.
CT6 – Keep it priced like a 5 Series but sized like a 7 Series. Improve interior appointments to better compete with 7 Series.
On top of these changes, any one of these models can be a sexy hatch design from Escala. The fact of the matter is sedans are dying. Cadillac either needs to provide a better value and usability for the price, or adjust prices.
David, your comment makes a lot of sense, I just hope with the changes, that Cadillac still pursues the sport/performance aspect of the current models.
Rather then a ‘hatch’ model, I would like to see a range topping Eldorado like offering like the Elmiraj.
Very well thought out, David! I can pretty much envision the Cadillac sedan lineup becoming this! I too believe the current CTS, XTS and CT6 have a tad too much overlap in both size and pricing. A good competitive strategy would be for Cadillac to sell “tweener” cars that provide more car for the money. A 3-sedan lineup could be better managed and expanded upon with more variants (wagons, hatches, etc.) to provide alternatives to CUVs/SUVs.
David, let me start by saying that I do not mean to be a rude or insulting by this comment, but…..
Why is everyone comparing Cadillac to BWM, Cadillac has done quite well for many years by not going after the likes of the Germans, and ever since they have started going after the Germans, Cadillac as a brand has been failing.
Cadillac should’ve never turned the second gen. CTS into 2 models (ATS, CTS), the CTS should go back to second gen. size, and both the XTS and the CT6 should stay to please both German and American Luxury buyers in the large luxury sedan segment. I mean, its only right for Cadillac to dominate that segment weather it be “German” or “American”, given its history.
Cadillac can still become a winner with minimal changes (and additions) to its current lineup, but they Can’t continue to have a “they’ll buy what we build” attitude, and need to start building cars that fit their demographic, not cater to a demographic that will never even look twice at a Cadillac.
Sad to see that the XTS, the last sedan even remotely resembling a classic Cadillac, is already slated for the chopping block before the new model arrives. Also sad to see that the Escala (CT8) will apparently never be put into production.
From what I can tell, the CT6 is already a flop. Yes it’s selling close to 1k/month, but for a model as new as it is, that’s fairly poor. I guess JDN is going to try to make the CT6 into a hit, by taking away any Cadillacs that might “compete” with it. That’s silly. JDN should worry about gaining market share for the brand, not gaining market share for the CT6 within the brand.
Now if the current ATS and CTS do not have “natural successors” either, that’s fine. The ATS is essentially the successor of the Cimarron, and the CTS is the successor of the Catera. Those are not exactly proud roots. Style-wise, the exteriors of the CTS and ATS look great (except in gimmicky -V styling), so that’s not the problem.
Hopefully the root of JDN’s thinking is that Cadillac is not going to build cars simply to fill a “class” established by some other brand. He could go one better in showing that Cadillac does not follow anyone else’s lead by going back to real names, instead of the German naming conventions, but that’s clearly too much too ask of an Audi guy named Johan (or a BMW guy named Uwe).
I do happen to like the idea of luxury sedans with liftbacks; there’s no reason that a functionally superior trunk/storage area should be viewed as “cheap” and thus avoided by the public. Liftbacks don’t have to look chopped off or Pacer-y, look at the Audi A7 or Tesla Model S. I think Cadillac could do something with it while still maintaining the angular “art and science” that makes current Cadillacs look like real Cadillacs.
The CT6 is a “flop” by your standards, even though it’s the second best-selling vehicle in its class. That already makes it anything but a flop.
Outside of that, let’s remember that the CT6 is the first Cadillac in its segment since *ever*. Cadillac has never had a direct rival to the S-Class, 7 Series, Lexus LS, Maserati Quattroporte, Jaguar XJ, etc. And despite that, the CT6 is selling quite well.
So… why is it a “flop” in your book, Drew?
Alex, to answer your question – I see the CT6 as a “flop” because sales are poor for a 1st (or early 2nd) year model. First and second year sales should be much stronger than this; compare these to sales of other Cadillacs when they relatively new models. The extent of the “flop” will become all the more obvious in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th years as the model gets older.
As to the CT6 being the first in its segment ever, someone could say that about every car made by everyone. And while I don’t think Cadillac should be trying to enter anyone else’s “class” per se, the CT6 is not a rival of the S-class by any means.
I see the CT6 as a hybrid between “sport” and “luxury” that pleases almost no one. It’s big but it’s too hard-riding to be real luxury. And “sporty” people favor smaller cars than the CT6. It’s a bit of a platypus, can’t decide if it’s a beaver or a duck.
But my opinion on the car itself doesn’t matter. Look at first and second year sales of other cars compared to the CT6. It’s not good. Now Johan wants to make the CT6 sales higher by ending the XTS and not offering the Escala (CT8)?
I get so tired of Cadillac management telling us that “the future of the brand is…” and then they point to some car that is selling poorly for a 1st or 2nd year model, like the CT6. Yet when they have a hot long-term seller like the Escalade, they say “that’s not the future of the brand”. Ok so they’d rather make the type of cars that they like personally (“in the right driveways”), instead of the ones that sell well and make big profits? I thought GM/Cadillac was a for-profit, shareholder owned business, not the personal plaything of the Johans and Uwes and Melodys.
Drew, I have to disagree with you when you say that the CT6 is a flop, as it was only outsold by the S-class, and they have been around much longer. Even outselling Lexus is a feat considering their “world famous” safety and reliability.
However, I fully agree with you when you say that Cadillac is telling us what to buy instead of building what we want. IMHO I think the Esacalade is only around because the “higher-ups” at GM are forcing Caddy to keep it in production, as they should due to its profitability. Cadillac should treat BOTH the CT6 and the XTS as equals, because they occupy the same segment while being complete opposites in terms of ride, driving dynamics, and style. If Caddy can learn to embrace both cars, they would DOMINATE the large luxury car segment hands down, while pleasing both traditional and “German” buyers.
Cadillac would do just fine if they keep both the CT6, and the XTS to occupy the large luxury segment, and “re-do” the CTS to align with 2nd gen. size, comfort and driving dynamics (the best of both worlds) to please traditional and “sporty” buyers in the midsize and small luxury sedan classes.
To be honest, I don’t think JDN is out to hurt Cadillac, after finding out what his “Audi touches” did to Caddy, I think the real fly(s) in the ointment are Uwe and Melody. I mean think about it, did JDN open the Cadillac house… no that was the work of Melody.
Henry, I’ll take your word for it that we can’t yet call the CT6 a “flop” in terms of sales. I’m just not used to a Cadillac sedan selling so few units in its first full year of production.
I agree that I don’t think JDN is intending to kill Cadillac, but he does seem to want to kill what the brand has meant to the USA, replacing it with yet another German sport-luxury brand. I also think that JDN is another one of these self described “enthusiast” people who prefers to make “performance” cars more than anything else. From what I recall, former GM CEO Bob Lutz was the same way, he said something like he was only interested in building sporty/performance cars, and all the other car executives he knew were the same way. Sure they would build other types of cars too, but only to support their real interest, which was “performance” type cars.
Some people would say that having a car CEO who is a performance junkie is not a problem, and of course the auto writers and bloggers will mostly cheer them on, because they tend to be performance nuts themselves. But that’s not what the majority of the public wants. Additionally, when you get too many carmakers going after the same small segment, you are dividing up a small pie too thinly while leaving other large pies virtually untouched.
From what I’ve read, when JDN was at Infiniti, his goal to make them the BMW of Japan. One of his pet projects there was the “Eau Rouge”, literally Red Water, actually named after a famous race-track in Belgium. This was supposed to be a high performance version of a Q50, with something like 560 HP. When the project was shelved after JDN left Infiniti by VP Noboru Tateishi, JDN derided Tateishi and said that Infiniti engineers lacked the enthusiasm for sport/performance that he saw at Audi and Cadillac. JDN said Infiniti engineers showed more enthusiasm for “driver’s aids” than “driver’s cars”.
Ok so why is that a problem? I suspect that Noboru Tateishi had a better grasp of the Japanese luxury market than JDN, yet JDN trash talked Tateishi as if he was the clueless one. And this focus on “performance” that JDN brings to Cadillac worries me. The process of “Germanization” of Cadillac that began in 1981 and continued under Lutz this decade, is still going strong under JDN. Yet the last I saw, Cadillac had fallen from 1st (in US luxury sales) to 5th on an annual basis and now 7th on a monthly basis, and that’s even including the Escalade which is obviously hated by current Cadillac management (Uwe openly says it does not represent the future of the brand).
Again, it seems it’s a case of “we know better” even when the market is telling them it’s not working, and hasn’t worked. It’s even possible that German-like cars are only embraced when they have German badges, imagine that. Or maybe the market for German-like cars just isn’t infinitely large, to play on the name of JDN’s previous employer.
You are probably right about Melody doing “Cadillac House” in New York City; certainly that seems to be what she’s all about. Melody seems to have sold GM on the idea that if they put her in a coffee house with frequent fashion shows, take her to the finest restaurants and put her up in the finest hotels, rubbing elbows with movie stars, taking helicopter rides to the Hamptons, etc. she will then return the favor by waving her magic wand of “cool” which will make all the Millennials (she is one, after all!) want to buy Cadillacs.
But the NYC move also has JDN’s stamp of approval, as well as echoing his move of Infiniti HQ from Tokyo to Hong Kong. JDN also renamed all of the Infinitis to make them start with a Q, followed by numbers and/or letters.
So it seems that Cadillac is being run according to JDN’s playbook for Infiniti. As far as his intent to “Germanize” Cadillac, the way he apparently intended to do at Infiniti, one thing that bothers me is that he and similarly minded people want to kill anything that doesn’t seem German enough. You rightly point out that Cadillac could co-exist with the XTS and CT6, two very different types of cars (and I still say that the CT6 ride is too harsh for a luxury car). But there’s a theory held by some that the mere existence of non-sporty cars is hurting Cadillac sales overall. I think that’s ridiculous, a bit like saying that Mercedes vans and trucks are hurting the brand, or that the electric mini car i3 is hurting sales of other BMWs.
So the XTS dies for a theory that’s likely to be proven wrong, the USA loses a luxury icon but gains a German sports/performance wannabe, that’s great. There should be a management principle that says successful companies will create managers who attempt to clone the brand elsewhere, and ultimately fail due to over-saturating the market with too many similar companies, or by failing to recognize regional differences. It would be sort of like the “Peter Principle” or “Murphy’s Law”.
This is what success looks like: A company walks into the luxury large car segment and immediately takes close to 50% market share by designing a clean sheet design which is truly revolutionary from a product standpoint right down to the way it is sold, serviced and fueled. You guessed it, that car is the Tesla Model S.
@City Mouse
The Tesla Model S has 50 percent market share of what segment, exactly?
If you’re referring to the midsize luxury sedan space (in which it competes), then it has closer to 10-15 percent… on a good month.
But in Tesla’s case, market share is worthless since every car is sold at a huge loss… hence (a big part of) the reason why Tesla has never turned a profit, and why profitability for the company is a long ways away.
Hence, market share for the sake of market share doesn’t matter… which explains why others haven’t followed Tesla into the segment just yet.
Ditto. Save for the S Class being the class sales winner, this class of vehicles is not about volume to begin with so the ‘flop’ reference is not applicable.
Drew,
1. Your assessment of the CT6 being a so-called “flop” from a sales standpoint seems to be purely subjective and qualitative… and not based on actual statistical analysis.
First and foremost, this class is not about sales volume — but rather profit per vehicle. But let’s, for a moment, be plebeian cavemen and treat the segment like we do any other mainstream car segment, and talk about sales volume, shall we?
When we reference actual sales figures, we see that the CT6 is actually quite successful. The model is consistently in second place in its competitive set.
Yes, yes — its initial starting price point is lower than all of its most direct rivals. We’ll get to that in a minute.
Now, here is just one example of said numbers (for June 2017). The CT6 is again in second place, right behind the S-Class and ahead of the 7 Series and LS:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/07/cadillac-ct6-sales-numbers-results-figures-june-2017/
These figures clearly show the CT6 is actually quite successful. Now, let’s remove the base 2.0T from the sales mix (about 20 percent), you will see an ATP that is close to the $85k mark — which is slightly below the sweet spot of vehicles in this class, indicating that it’s indeed selling to the right demo and in quite solid volumes. Also, the CT6 does not (yet) have a V-Sport/V variant… which would move that ATP up even more.
So again, the numbers show a really good sales performance for the CT6.
If you do not want to take my word for it, have a look at Jaguar and the XJ. It barely sells 150 units a month yet is highly profitable for the brand. In fact, it has kept Jaguar afloat for almost two decades as the brand struggled to move over 1,500 cars a month in the U.S market. The CT6 sells 6-8 times more than that, and unlike the XJ, it has not been around for 20-30 years.
This very example also applies to the Maserati Quattroporte: it sells in very low volumes, yet single-handedly keeps the brand afloat. And knowing GM’s vehicle operations inside out, you can be certain that GM makes more profit on the CT6 than Jaguar does on the XJ or than Maserati does on the Quattroporte. Specifically, GM has a final “cost loop” process that strips cost out of the vehicle prior to it being validated for production… which is not the case for either Jag or Maserati. I’m personally not a fan of the process, but it does result in higher ppv (profit per vehicle) at the end of the day. The upcoming GM VSS processes will negate this… hopefully.
My final note about sales volume is this: do you know how many S-Class Coupes are sold every month? Under 150. Does that make the car “a flop”? At $125,000 per unit STARTING PRICE, it must clearly be a flop, right? Or the fact that Porsche sells 700 units of the 911 makes it a flop too, no?
2. You mention that the CT6 is in its first/second year… in other words it is in the initial stage of its life cyle… and hence, according to you, it has an advantage. But this is not the case.
That theory only applies to vehicles that have established 1) a solid image, 2) a strong market presence, and 3) a loyal customer base and pent-up demand for all-new introductions.
Neither one of those conditions is true for the CT6. As I mentioned before, it is a brand new model for Cadillac. Based on your comment, it doesn’t appear that you understand why that actually matters. And it matters because it is starting from zero: zero reputation, zero presence, zero market demand, zero image, and zero customer base.
The fact that the CT6 started at ZERO and yet is bringing in new-to-brand customers at a clip of roughly 1,000 a month is highly impressive in its own right and is indeed the characterization of success for a new-to-market product.
So as you can see, you are off on your assessment on this point, as well.
3. Following up on that: hypothetically, imagine the CT6 20 years in the future. It will have built up a considerable customer base, image and presence. The lineup will have (should have?) been expanded to include various variants, thereby building Cadillac’s presence in the segment even further.
Then, and only then, will we actually be able to see the full sales potential of the CT6. But again, this is a business that requires perfect execution, vision and patience… and patience is hard to come by when internet CEOs with little knowledge of the industry are so ready to disparage the success of a vehicle program without knowing its intricate details.
4. Contrary to your assessment, the CT6 does, in fact, compete in the full-size prestige luxury space against the S-Class, 7 Series, Lexus LS, Jaguar XJ, and Audi A8.
Have you driven any of these vehicles yourself? If not, you should and you will see that the CT6 is a contender.
5. You continually reference that the CT6 “rides harshly” compared to the S-Class. Now, it is true that the CT6 delivers a sportier ride than the S-Class that is not as relaxed. But the ride is in no way harsh… which is a harsh word, pun fully intended. Its ride is right there with the 7 Series, with the Quattroporte, and with the Jaguar XJ.
Look no further than the numbers: around 1,000 people spend $60,000 or more on the CT6 every month and disagree with your assessment… or just don’t care about the supposed “harshness”… or see the ride as an advantage.
So while you might not like it, it might be a positive for people who actually plunked down the money for the car. After all, they picked the CT6 over the softer-riding XTS (and paid more money for the CT6) for a reason. It wasn’t because they were after a car that rides “harshly”.
Now, let me play devil’s advocate for a minute and assume that there actually is an issue with the CT6’s ride. Again, this is a hypothetical — and I’m still not agreeing with your on your assessment — having spent a month with the car.
But let’s assume away. The correct answer would not be to kill off the CT6. That would be short-sighted and totally off the mark. The correct answer would be to fix it. This is where the factors of patience and vision, as I mention previously, really come into play. Ill-advised, knee-jerk reactions like yours say “kill it”. Much better-advised reactions are to find out what needs to be fixed and address it. That is the name of a well-known concept called continuous improvement.
In the case of the CT6, the platform is there to modify the suspension for a softer ride, if need be. As I have explained before, this could be as simple as offering another setting (via a software update) to the CT6’s Magnetic Ride Control.
But again, it doesn’t seem like the ride is a problem… as every month 1,000 people buy the CT6 (and do not buy your beloved XTS) AND pay more in doing so. There are reasons for this that go beyond customers wanting an inferior ride… right? So I’d say that CT6 customers — actual, real, live people who pay for the car —
actually appreciate and enjoy the way the CT6 rides and handles.
7. In general, it appears that you — a well-established fanatic of the XTS — are all about hating the CT6. But it would seem that this is really not necessary, since the CT6 is doing great things for Cadillac by 1) attracting new customers, 2) raising the brand’s ATP (and hence, profitability), and further defining the brand.
As far as your beef associated with the “vision for the brand”, it doesn’t matter what you or I think — as neither of us have the data or the vision to run a multi-billion enterprise called Cadillac. Without a vision, you won’t know what your goals are or where you need to go. Luckily, the people running Cadillac are automotive industry professionals with decades of experience working off data and research and within the constrains of time and resources… and while you might not agree with their decisions, you only have a part of the picture and don’t know the end-goal… the final destination, if you will. Granted, I also don’t agree with some of the team’s decisions… for what it’s worth… but that’s another story.
I’ll leave you with this: Johan and his team are in the business of 1) charting a new course for Cadillac and 2) ensuring Cadillac’s financial performance. They are not in the business of hating on specific models. Heck, the CT6 was already a done deal when he arrived. But one thing is for sure: if Cadillac were in the position of Mercedes-Benz or BMW, no one would be questioning any of these moves. The goal is to get to that point. The question is “how”.
Alex Luft, thanks for the thorough and thoughtful write-up. I gave it “thumbs up” even though I disagree with much of it.
It’s true that Cadillac has never had a sedan quite as expensive as the CT6, even adjusted for inflation. It did have the even more expensive XLR, but that was a 2-seat convertible. So to some extent the CT6 is new territory for Cadillac. And given the price, it’s possible that the CT6 has highest marginal profit Cadillac per unit of any Cadillac sedan. Of course when “all in” development, engineering, testing, tooling, marketing, etc. costs are figured in, volume becomes important to cover those high fixed costs. (I won’t even add in the fixed cost of moving to New York City to the CT6, even though I think that was a big waste and even counterproductive move). So there’s no set “per unit” profitability here, it does vary with sales volume.
By the way, I am not an XTS fanatic, I just like it the best of the current Cadillac sedans. I feel that the XTS is actually a step down from the DTS. The DTS was the “flagship” sedan for Cadillac for many years. Not as high priced as the CT6, even adjusted for inflation, but not low priced either.
The DTS had over 58k sales in the US in its first full year, and over 51k US sales in its second full year. It looks like the CT6 might do 25k in its first full year. Now maybe the CT6 is twice as profitable as the DTS on a marginal cost basis, but when you add in those fixed (development, etc) costs over the life of the model, I doubt that GM/Cadillac will make as much in inflation adjusted terms on the CT6 as on the DTS. Or anywhere close.
As I said, I think the CT6 situation will become more obvious as sales move into the 3rd, 4th, and 5th years. Look at the ATS now, it’s often called a “problem child” for Cadillac. It often takes big incentives to move them off the lots. Yet when the ATS was new, it got raves from the press as to its “track performance” vs the Germans. That hasn’t translated to high sales over its lifetime, especially for a car in that price range. Maybe you’d call the ATS a success also, but I wouldn’t.
As to current management, they seem to all have the Melody Lee mindset that they should “stay the course” even if they don’t see an improvement in the next 10 years. Of course in Melody’s case that’s probably about job security as much as anything, but it’s astonishing that so many top people at Cadillac seem to think they “know” where the future sales will be and they are not bothered that their current models don’t sell very well. They have been very late to the SUV/CUV game, other than the Escalade which they seem to hate (I can’t say I love it either, but it sells in high volume at very high profit). So if they missed predicting the SUV demand, why should we believe that they have a crystal ball on future demand for sedans?
There’s an interesting story about the Wrigley company. Originally they were in the business of making laundry detergent. Then someone decided that they could increase sales by bundling baking powder with the detergent. This was a hit, to the point where they found that people were buying the detergent just to get the baking powder. So they decided baking powder was their business, and dropped the detergent. Then they tried the bundling thing again, this time bundling chewing gum with the baking powder. Massive hit, people were buying the powder to get the gum. So Wrigley decided to be in the gum business only, and the rest is history.
Current Cadillac management though reminds me of a reverse Wrigley situation. They seem determined that what sells well now, and what they built their brand on, is not what they want to sell. It’s as if someone took over Wrigley now and said “let’s change this into the laundry detergent business”. And even after making that change, and seeing sales fall, they said “let’s stay the course, we know that eventually this will be the right move”.
I don’t hate the CT6 simply because it’s not a car I would buy personally. I just don’t think there’s a big market for “sporty” full sized luxury sedans. I think people who would buy a big Cadillac expect a comfortable ride, not a “sporty” one. Johan seems to think that if they drop the XTS, most of those buyers would get a CT6. I don’t think so. It’s too bad Cadillac didn’t pursue reliability and upgraded luxury instead of BMW-like “sportiness”, but that’s another matter.
Johan did some things that were right for Audi. Uwe did some things that were right for BMW. Melody did – I don’t know what she did, but she’s obviously good at marketing herself to certain people at Cadillac. But are these people right for Cadillac? I’m not feeling it. I’m not seeing it in the sales or the products. “Stay the course” is a good slogan for someone who wants to keep their high-paying job. It’s not a great idea when the sales and profits are declining. Since I have no control over the outcome (other than buying someone else’s car, when Cadillac no longer offers me what I want), all I can do is sit back and watch it happen. If Johan and company actually increase market share (easy to measure) and profitability (harder to see), then I will admit I was wrong. If they continue to wreck this great American icon, I won’t celebrate that I saw it coming, I’ll just be sad about it.
Whoops, probable overestimate there by me. CT6 now seems unlikely to sell 25k units in this its first full year. They haven’t even sold 6k in the first half, though the second half is usually much better.
Let’s say 14-18k for the first full year? That would be a lot less than the 58k first full year for the DTS, or 32k first full year sales for the XTS.
Whatever the results, it’s almost certainly going to be their lowest first full year sedan model sales total in the past 70 years. But not a “flop”, apparently.
I doubt it was marketing skills that got Melody hired at Cadillac, she probably just knows how to suck a good dick.
She has the proper height. Lol
Does she do marketing for China also?
Oh my.
You think a plastic ct6 is a direct rival to the S-Class and Maserati?
I want what you are smoking……..
The two cars do compete for ultimately the same buyer.
Whether or not the CT6 does so favorably is a different topic.
Smoke on that.
Also, if you want to disparage the CT6, go ahead and have a look at the Quattroporte’s finer cabin details like the steering wheel, switchgear, and the like. They are the definition of plastic.
OK, Mr. Rye Shelton…
I hate to say it but this car brand has lost its way years ago. They had the market on lock when they were the best bang for the dollar in the Lux market place.They had great cars and the even better V series. Then they had to go chase the BMW’s and Mercedes of the world and have failed. They have lost market share and are now overpriced cars that are not stacking up to the others. Now they are once again realigning the cars to better compete. They didn’t have this figured out with the Alpha platform. The head of this division needs to go he os not the cure to what ails this brand.
They are lost in the dense fog with a glazed look on their faces.
The experiment has failed miserably and it’s time to fire Johan de Nysschen as Cadillac’s President as the guy simply does NOT understand the American buyer as everything he does has been a failure.. and while there’s chatter that sales of big sedans is dying, it’s not for Mercedes which sold 1,169 of their S-class sedans in June 2017 as Americans are just not buying Cadillac sedans as this is a failure of leadership and vision.
It’s not about the American buyer as that market is not growing. It’s all about what China wants now.
All of this sounds very similar to what went down at Oldsmobile pre-bankruptcy .
Cadillac should not abandon the car segment , but better align the new products . The ATS should go away with no replacement , The CTS should continue but smaller than it is now , the XTS should be replaced at it’s current footprint and the CT6 is now going to be their ” flagship ” but with a better quality interior with Cadillacs new face of the Escala.
Although the CT6 is the top of the line ” car ” , it needs to become a TRUE s-class fighter. That means it needs to become what it isn’t at this point . Three cars , thats it . Whatever the thinking was for the CT8 should be folded into a range topping CT6 . And get rid of so many trim levels of it , offer what could be considered a base model with a TT6 and the range topper with the new V8 that is already in development .
Then continue filling in the white spaces with CUV’s that are in the pipeline . The real ‘ flagship ” for Cadillac the Escalade should once again become what it once was ,the ultimate in a luxury SUV moving it up in the segment to better compete in the ultra luxury group that some automakers ( Bentley, Porshe etc.. ) are now entering .
Just my $0.02 .
The Cadillac Commandments:
1 – CT# and XT# are names that are ordered and logical. It has no negative baggage or hang-ups that come with names like Eldorado and Fleetwood have, which in the public consciousness will immediately think of mid-90’s ‘pimp wagons’ or the hopelessly displaced geriatrics. It also more faithful to Cadillac Series# names which predate the ‘named’ Cadillacs.
2 – ‘Bang for the buck’ is not important for any luxury products. Status is and demand like that of a Veblen good is.
3 – There are right and wrong driveways for Cadillacs.
4 – Blaming foreigners in Cadillacs staff will not change anything. Only the best people drawn from the biggest pool of the best prospective talent should be there; nationalities be damned.
5 – Idolizing the past and upholding it as standard to emulate, and not exceed, will not make Cadillac important in anyone’s eyes.
6 – No mainstream luxury car is hard riding. Not a single one.
7 – There is no such thing as German/Japanese/American luxury. There is only luxury, period. Capital L Luxury is a description of the means of obtaining and having something exclusive that others do not have. If you want something bad enough, price and nation of origin is no barrier.
8 – The message behind Cadillac that should resonate with every luxury consumer is “Our cars are simply better than anything else you’ve ever driven”. It should not be “AMERICA! AMERICA! AMERICA! WOOOOOO!”
9 – People want to see what is on the cutting edge of tomorrow. The only thing they want more than that is to be on the cutting edge of tomorrow. Cadillac will never do that by only offering trips down memory lane.
10 – Quality over quantity. Qualitative over quantitative. Doing it right over doing it fast. Demand over supply. ATP over unit sales.
I won’t care if you disagree. What matters is that I get GM’s intention for Cadillac clearly, and see how important it is to divorce itself from its murky and stagnating past. I get it, many in America get it, and many in China get it. GM simply needs to follow through on its promise and go further than they ever have gone with Cadillac.
That’s a lot of talk for a brand which has a global, very optimistic share of 3% of the luxury market on a good day.
https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/03/12/is-general-motors-cadillac-a-relic-or-is-the-best.aspx
It’s a lot of talk for a lot of things that need to change, not just for Cadillac, but consumer impressions as well. It’s better to set the goals for Cadillac to reach rather than just accept line drives and ‘good enough’ results just because they worked well enough 30 years ago when it was solely a US market concern.
People aren’t supposed to settle for a Cadillac, they’re supposed to reach for one above all else. That was what the Standard of the World embodied and should today. That 3% is an unfortunate result of over 6 decades of stagnating, insular, and ignorant management that nearly killed Cadillac. Now, it’s not completely a lost cause, but lots needs to be done to convince the world that Cadillac is something to aspire to.
‘Lots’ too small of a word to describe the work that Cadillac needs to do to reestablish its global importance.
Grawbuddy, if you “get” the thinking of current Cadillac management (does that include Melody Lee?) then GM’s accountants might as well start figuring out the write-off implications for shutting down the brand right now. Because the plan that you “get” is the recipe for failure they’ve been using since 1981. Specifically:
1. Using the German naming system is again conceding leadership to the Germans. There was nothing wrong with Cadillac using real names, and they dominated the US luxury market back when they had real names. You have your own strange biases against those names, but to most Americans the name Eldorado does not equal “pimpmobile”. Not that you’d ever understand Americans. It’s not so much the use of cold letters and numbers that is the problem, it’s that Cadillac feels compelled to do EVERYTHING the way the Germans do it, after the Germans do it first. If the Germans switched to real names, you can bet that Cadillac would do the same.
2. You can’t take value totally out of the equation. Maybe Rolls Royce and Bentley can do that, but no one else can do it. Even MB found that out with the Maybach. In the USA, Duesenberg went bankrupt making “price no object” cars. Even Rolls Royce went bankrupt twice.
3. Typical Graw snob comment about “right driveways”, taken from current management. Sorry but if someone has the $$$, Cadillac no longer says they are not right for them. That thinking went out in the 1930’s, and Cadillac was the better for getting rid of it.
4. The one thing foreigners can’t do is truly understand American culture, regardless of how much they study it. That’s not a jingoistic statement, it’s reality. I can’t ever expect to totally understand Japanese culture the way a native Japanese can. I may think “I’m the best” but if I am going after the Japanese market, I would be stupid not to put some native Japanese in high positions. Cadillac has NO ONE in top management with deep roots in the USA, and yes that is a problem. It would also make some sense to bring someone who inherently understands the PRC to upper management, since that’s now also a huge market for Cadillac.
5. When your past is one of tremendous glory, you are stupid to pretend that it doesn’t exist. That does not mean you try to relive the past by building identical replicas of the past, using outdated technology. What it does mean is that you are allowed to realize that being a leader has in fact worked in the past, and you don’t have to put yourself in the me-too wannabe clone position forever. Although – and this is not a knock at all Canadians – I can understand the wannabe/follower mentality you seem to have personally.
6. I agree that if a car is hard-riding, it should not be considered a luxury car. Unfortunately most cars under the “luxury” label today are too hard-riding, including most of the German ones. Of course “too hard riding” is subjective, so there’s no way for you to claim that none are hard riding. You could go out on a stagecoach now and claim it rides just fine, that doesn’t make it as smooth as something worthy of being “the Cadillac ride”.
7. There are absolutely significant differences in the traditional American view of luxury cars, and the German one. Do some research on this, since you are obviously too young or to unobservant to know about this yourself. BMW and other German brands are the ones with a preference for “feel the road” through a vibrating steering wheel and bumpy ride. That somehow passes for “luxury” among Germans. This was never true for Americans until some people started to think the German luxury was superior to American luxury, which is very recent and faddish. If Cadillac continues to pursue the German idea of hard-riding “luxury”, it will again be behind the times when tastes shift back to comfortable luxury.
8. Apparently you have not seen advertising in the USA. I have not seen one Cadillac ad that says USA USA WOOO. Of course Cadillac should build the best mass-produced “American version luxury” cars, they don’t need to wave the flag to sell them. Currently Lexus probably produces the best “American version luxury” cars, even though they are Japanese. And Americans buy them at a nearly 2/1 rate over Cadillacs now. But there is nothing wrong with being proud of your history and showing it (unless you have no history to speak of), as the awesome Cadillac “Roll” commercial of 2007 showed (“Cadillac since 1903”).
9. Cadillac will only be on the cutting edge of tomorrow (again) by being a leader once again, not a follower of the Germans. The current Cadillac way is to copy the Germans and be one or two generations behind. How is that the cutting edge of tomorrow?
10. Yes Cadillac needs to improve quality, as this is what built the brand in the first place. It’s sad that Cadillac is still far behind Lexus in terms of reliability and refinement. If Cadillac should imitate anyone, it’s Lexus in terms of quality. The German cars have the same lack of reliability that cost them dearly in WWII, despite many “cutting edge” weapons. There was a time when Cadillac meant both cutting edge AND quality, and it’s time to get back to that standard (not the identical cars of the past).
Unfortunately, it seems that Cadillac’s foreign-centric management is as clueless about the US luxury car market as our Canadian friend Grawbuddy. But I sincerely hope that they do not hold all of Grawbuddy’s thoughts and values dear, or the loss of customers will continue at Cadillac, probably at an accelerated pace. But it doesn’t have to be that way!
Grandpa Drew,
1) Letters and numbers make sense. It makes people say “I have a Cadillac” not “I have a Deville”. Its a wise brand building tactic.
2) Agreed that they need to offer value, but in the many people buy lux items including cars because they’re expensive, and the corporate brass is trying to elevate the brand not move metal. Cadillac needs to be exclusive not $279/month lease.
3) Image is everything with luxury cars, again cadillac needs to be exclusive, and needs to target the right demos to move forward and grow in the future.
4) I dont think you understand american culture…. at least not how the Gen X and millennials experience it. We know you hate younger generations but believe it or not that’s the future.
5) Reliving the past wont do the brand any good. There is a reason European marks boomed in the USA and it was long before Cadillac started to shift to performance.
6) We’ve been over this before, there’s a reason no one builds rolling boats anymore.
7) the point is that people are shopping american and european and japanese luxury brands against each other. not that they shouldn’t or dont stand for different things but they are all competeing in the same marketplace in a global economy.
8) He is not talking about saying that explicitly in a commercial… focus on product and quality not heritage. also, see number 5.
9) I agree with you on this one. Cadillac says it is cutting edge but always seems to be a step or two behind… this needs to change going forward.
10) I think we can all agree quality and reliability are essential, and they need to build great cars even if they are a little more expensive/ sell slightly fewer.
JDN and Uwe have both said a million times that they are focusing on elevating the brand image before these new products launch which means shedding some current customers for difference, more profitable customers. it might be a gamble but its what needs to be done. I know you dont want to accept it but they can not go back to building soft riding land yauchts that market is dead. There is a reason that no one builds cars like this any more!! the market is shrinking by the day as older people stop driving… and thats the reason they are loosing cutomers, the old people dont drive any more and the brand image of cadillac has not shifted significantly enough to bring in younger buyers. Melody is a millennial branding expert, and the team is doing all the right things to improve/and change brand image and make Cadillac Stronger. Sales will follow!!
Ian, I don’t hate younger generations – where are you getting that? I don’t like Melody Lee because she’s arrogant, massively overpaid and overperked, and yet has nothing to offer to Cadillac. I do admire the way she’s gotten GM to give her so much while being completely unqualified for the job.
What I don’t think Cadillac should do is to limit itself to a very narrow sector of the market. And that would be exclusively to the trifecta of under 40, very wealthy, with a fixation on sports/performance. For one thing there just aren’t that many people who are all 3 of those at once. For another, it’s silly for Cadillac to run away from its image of success, which meant a nice comfortable roomy 1st class ride, with the latest styling, the latest electronics, etc.
I like younger generations a lot. And not all of the younger people want a harsh cramped sporty ride. Many of them appreciate a roomy 1st class ride. I first rode in a Cadillac when I was 16, and I thought the ride was awesome – so roomy and smooth on the road, so modern and luxurious inside. At the same time I had a friend who had a used orange GTO Judge, an impressive “muscle car”. About all I can say is that it looked cool to those of us in high school. The ride, not so much. And by the time I was out of college, I felt cars like that were a joke, a toy for boys. I don’t care if some people get their thrills in life by going fast on twisty roads. The automakers THINK that’s a desire for most people in their 20’s and 30’s, it isn’t. And when some old guy buys a “sporty” car now, it’s even more laughable – you know it’s either someone who never grew up, or some unhappy old loser trying to relive his youth via outward appearances. It’s about like seeing some paunchy white haired guy wearing a black leather jacked – it only makes him look foolish, not cool.
You can call me grandpa, but I’m not really that old. I’m in my 50’s and quite active, most people who meet me are surprised I’m much over 40. And I’ve been driving cars that have nice smooth 1st class rides since I was in my mid 30’s (and frankly I wish I’d started even sooner than that). I don’t care that some people might call them “old man cars”, I call them 1st class and I say that Cadillac should have worked against the perception of “old man cars” instead of actually changing them. Think of an airline seat – do you think of 1st class seats or private jet seats as “old people seats”? Sure, there’s a higher proportion of old people in them, because they tend to have the money to afford them. But I have yet to see a person of any age decline to upgrade to 1st class when offered the seat at no extra charge.
But in the car industry, for some reason they think customers should decline roomy and smooth rides, in favor of cramped, hard, “feel the road” rides – and that this makes them “younger” by getting bounced around. Part of the reason the auto industry insists that nice smooth rides are “old man rides” is that the auto executives are from that small sector that really does crave sports/performance and is willing to sacrifice a nice ride to get it. But that’s not where most of the public is, at any age.
Ian, I seriously doubt you’ve driven a real Cadillac of the past, or even the most recent version of a true Cadillac which was the DTS (last production in 2011). For me it’s actually a very enjoyable experience, to be able to glide along as if on a cushion of air, instead of bouncing along feeling every crack and pebble in the road. The “floaty boats” thing is a phrase created by today’s auto writers, and people like you accept it without question. Sorry but that’s not the way most people percieved it, who have actually experienced it. And when you talk about “what sells”, Cadillac sold far more sedans per years with the roomy comfortable ride, than they are selling now with the harsh sporty ride. There’s even a phrase “the Cadillac ride” – unfortunately it no longer applies to Cadillac, but it meant the nicest, smoothest ride of any car this side of the Rolls Royce. That was Cadillac’s identity, and it was a good one – along with the bold styling and modern electronics. Today Cadillac’s identity is as a poor imitation of BMW. And the proof in the sales and profits shows that one worked a lot better than the other.
By the way Ian, you say that younger generations are the future, of course that’s true. But tastes can change as you get older, else we’d all be chewing bubble gum our entire lives. You’ll probably get to be “old” at some point, if you manage to survive “fast n furious” type driving. And then you may appreciate a roomy comfortable ride, and feel like you’ve had enough of the cramped harsh sport/performance ride.
Where will you go then? Probably to Lexus, which is not quite so stupid to kill off their first class rides in the name of “getting younger”. Too bad Cadillac will no longer be offering “the Cadillac ride” at that point.
Some harsh comments here on the ATS. I have to say it was a great car, but I never went to Cadillac looking for the 2013 ATS. The gorgeous last generation CTS Coup was what brought me there, and I took a shot on the ATS instead because it was a better deal. i loved it, but over course of the lease the lack of cabin refinement and certain options that should’ve been in the car took off the shine for me. That said – when it was time to get a new car, the ATS made good progress but not enough – the body of the car remained unchanged.it was as if Cadillac completely abandoned doing so,etching about the car even as sales dipped year over year since its launch. They really couldn’t bother with AT LEAST a mid cycle refresh that made it overall a much more gorgeous, rackish car? They have the chops when you look at their concepts, but the problem is that they keep getting it wrong in production final design. the CTS CT6 and XT5 look ok, but they all fall short of being truly visually competitive in the segment. I think the direction Jaguar is going in should be a lesson to Cadillac. The F-Pace is gorgeous. Had the XT5 matched that beauty in its own way, they’d be selling twice the amount of XT5’s they are now.
Bottom line – Cadillac design language needs to be sleeker, more rackish, more visually stunning. They shouldn’t have ignored the ATS the way they did – it should’ve had a mid-cycle refresh and be onto a complete redesign by now since its launch – I promise you sales would’ve done better. How do I know? Because I would’ve gotten another ATS had they worked for it. They didn’t. I moved on.
unfortunatly cadillac does a very poor job of keeping its models current as they age, look at the 2013 CTS, it was a dinosaur, almost exactly the same as when it launched in 2008. They could have done much more to update the ATS and keep them selling well.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but people who want the names Fleetwood & Eldorodo need to stop living in the past. No one my age knows about those cars, and naming a car “Fleetwood” in 2017 & beyond would turn younger buyers off. Why? Bc it sounds weird. In 20+ years a handful of people who remember Cadillacs from the Fleetwood era won’t be buying cars anymore. Millenials and Gen Z are the next customers and Cadillac isn’t going to cater to us by being stuck in the past.
Car ownership will soon start tapering off, and then dramatically come to a screeching halt, for most of us, the cost(s) of ownership will be too high for personal ownership
The ‘Z’ generation, will likely be the first generation since the advent of the model ‘T’, that never owns a car or obtains a drivers license. My son, a millennial, now 29 years, has never owned a car or had a drivers license. Says he probably never will.
Just owning an ‘ICE’ vehicle will be “Living in the past”, regardless of its name/nomenclature, or status.
France has already called for the end of ICE vehicle sales by 2040 and will likely move that date up as the environment continues to degrade. The rest of Europe is likely to follow suit. China won’t be far behind.
So, enjoy cars while you can, they or your days are running short.
And ‘Coal Rollers’ should serve jail time and have their vehicles confiscated and crushed.
Let it fly…
Now… where are the keys to my 56′ Eldorado.
I’m assuming your son lives in a major city where owning a car is not a necessity. Well that’s not the case for myself and a lot of other people my age (and older/younger). I will always own a car because it will be my own that I can do what I want with.
Also, you do realize that ICE is just one form of vehicle propulsion right? Just because France is banning ICE cars doesn’t mean people won’t be driving all of a sudden.
Lincoln did just fine bringing back the name “Continental” instead of repeating the soulless “MKS” (to go with the MKZ, MKT, MKX, MKC, etc). Now I’m not saying that the new Continental is the perfect luxury car, but no one is saying it’s a “weird” name that turns them off. Even better, the name is saying “We don’t have to copy the soulless German number/letter combinations”.
As to Cadillac catering to you millennials and gen z’ers, I’m sure that will eventually happen. In fact Cadillac is holding a name just to cater to your group, it’s “The Bieber”. They plan to use it in a few decades when enough of you have saved up enough money to buy a new Cadillac. No “weird” name like Eldorado or Deville for your group.
The current car the “Continental” name is given to is nice but not flagship caliber like the ’60s model with suicide doors. Nice car but “Continental” name is not worthy for it to be called that.
Also, the Continental is not selling any better than the CT6 and the base price is a bit lower than the XTS but optioned-out Continentals are higher than the optioned-out XTS and lower than the optioned-out CT6s that can’t outsell the XTS and CT6 combined.
So apparently, the general public has not warmed up to the Continental in spite of numerous commercial airtime and advertisements before the car debuted. I was thinking for the car that is priced less than the XTS and CTS to sell around 1,500 – 2,500 would be a good guess but apparently not. But regardless, Lincoln needs to start somewhere to make their cars relevant again like Cadillac is doing.
The MKS has a soulless name on a soulless car no one was interested. Lincoln has the worse naming alphanumeric which does not make any sense.
Continental seems to be exactly the kind of car you think would thrive (“real” name, soft riding, spacious, fwd, all the money invested in comfort and ride instead of performance) and last I checked they sell about the same as ct6/xts…..
I dont understand how JDN has “failed”. His first two products XT5 and CT6 are doing well, with XT5 posting higher retail and average transaction prices. CT6 is selling well, Cadillac is attracting new buyers and has higher average transaction price. New models are comingwait until next year..what has he done wrong???
Cadillac is attracting new buyers? It just this month fell to 7th place in Luxury vehicle sales, in its home market! That is selling well? Luxury buyers want quality and engineering, not just another half baked attempt where management builds the vehicle they want to build and cut corners where they think no one will notice.
This is what JDN is for. Barra and team recognized this issue with Cadillac and brought him on board to make the neccessary changes. Wait for his product to come out before saying Cadillac isn’t making any changes. Even the XT5 and CT6 were in the final stages when JDN came on board so he had little involvement with these cars compared to XT4 & other upcoming models. If his new products don’t deliver then that’s an issue, but let’s reserve judgment for when we know what we’ll be getting
Cadillac can’t be a complete auto company without having a car + suv un each segment.
IE CT2, CT4, CT6.
Since many Cadillac buyers lease or bought XTS/CTS recently, they have to keep them for awhile, before
they can jump on a CT6.
There is no reason a CT6 can’t have both a XTS + firm ride, either using trim levels or MRC that adjusts with
wider settings.
Probably most of all, Cadillac can’t have forums full of new owners complaining about the HVAC smell or
jerky shifting trans.
Cadillac under de Nyschen is going down under. Mary Barra should fire him. Or be fired too. Under his direction, Caddy made a costly mistake in going to New York and making Euro alphabet soup a confusing headache for American consumers. His actions have cost the GM billions in lost revenues.
Loved my new 2004 and 2008 CTS cars when I bought them–new CTS edition is a little too long for my taste–I prefer 190 to 192 inches in length–a combination of ATS or CTS in that size with a six cylinder available and I’ll buy it–don’t copy BMW or Mercedes cars–but won’t wait much longer.