2009 was a dark year for the American auto industry as a whole. No, it was a dark year for the entire global economy, in fact. Automotive giants became weak in the knees, bankruptcies were filed and restructuring came quickly.
One casualty still mourned today is Pontiac. Oh, Pontiac.
We’ve previously discussed why General Motors is at a loss without the brand, but we took a trip back in time while we attended the 2017 Buick LaCrosse drive event.
We had the opportunity to speak with Brian Shipman, now a Buick Marketing Product Manager. He’s the link between the engineers, and the marketing guys, kind of an important link, no doubt. But, he was once with the red arrowhead, and we discussed what could have been with the brand.
According to Shipman, there was a major, no, massive push for Pontiac to return to its glory days of being performance-forward. As one of our own described it, it was on its way to becoming an American Alfa Romeo.
Foremost, just as the axe fell on Pontiac, an updated G8 sedan was to be revealed. Facelifted exterior styling along with an all-new interior design was slated to break up the mundane black and gray color(less) scheme in the cabin. Adding to the sedan was to be the Pontiac G8 ST, also known as the Holden VE Commodore ute. We knew about the promise of a two-door sport truck coming to the U.S. once again, but the Commodore sport wagon was to arrive shortly after, too.
Sound cool? A reborn GTO was slated to arrive as a coupe variant of Holden VE Commodore as well. We can point to the Holden Coupe 60 concept as what could have been. But, that’s not all.
Besides a full lineup of badass Aussie muscle turned Pontiac, an all-new Pontiac G6 was slated to arrive with Alpha platform underpinnings. A mid-size, rear-wheel drive Pontiac sedan was so close. So close, guys.
And just as the brand was cut off from the automotive world as we know it, the fifth-generation Chevrolet Camaro was launched. Who knows, maybe our reborn Pontiac Firebird could have had some merit, too.
After years, or maybe even decades of playing badge engineering, Pontiac was painfully near a renaissance. Though, with Australian production of the Commodore ending, the G8 backbone could have been whacked all too quickly either way.
Oh, what could have been.
Comments
Well if anyone has read Bob Lutz’s book Car Guys vs. Bean Counters it outlines alot regarding GM and its now killed off brands. He talks about how the government stepped in during the bailout process and basically told them what to do. President Obama asked GM “How much money have you made on Pontiac in the last 10 years?” The answer…”None”. So they axed it. The government was wanting GM to kill the GMC brand as well, stating a car company doesn’t need 2 truck brands but when they showed government officials how much profit it brings in they agreed to let it remain. Its all about revenue. Very interesting read that i recommend to any american car enthusiast.
But you also leave out that Pontiac was as stated by Bob pretty much too far gone to save in what little time there was left.
While the government people recommended to close Pontiac it was still up to GM to do it. GMC was an easy save with them based so much on the Chevy trucks and the ultra high profit margins they enjoy.
You have to remember when Bob Arrived Pontiac the so called performance division did not even have a RWD car. He worked hard to bring the GTO out with little to no budget. Yes they were so tight on money the exhaust and hood had to wait a year. Confirmed by Fred Simmons of Pontiac personally to me.
the GXP GP was hampered by a transmission that was heavily covered with engine management as it would not handle the power of the V8. Also if you look today most of the trannys are or have failed in these cars.
The G8 was a good move and done on the cheap. But even today it would be gone due to the pending death of the Zeta. It also was not going to save Pontiac alone.
The Solstice my favorite car was near the end of it’s run as sales were tanking. It was a cool car but 2 seat cars have limited lives outside the Vette and Miata. GM just did not have the money to do a new one when it needed so many other higher volume and profit models.
If Pontiac had been saved they would still be starved for product today. Just look at Buick as they are just now getting their new cars they were so over due for. Pontiac would have even been less a priority. A Firebird would have robbed the Camaro of volume.
The bottom line is Pontiac was a dead man walking about 10 years before they died due to poor management. Hell the LNF was a great engine why was it not in a G6? That would have been much better than the V6 it got.
I had to buy a Chevy to get one. The G5? The plant built a Turbo one but they only used it for running parts at the plant once it was rejected.
To be honest I am a life long Pontiac fan and I can say Pontiac died a long time ago but so few notices. The truth is keeping them around while GM was coming out of the bail out was not going to produce much. As of now I would rather them save the name and once they get Buick and Cadillac to where they should be then look to do a limited performance division and do it right with the right people and the proper funding. Sell it Buick dealers and do not do anything Chevy is doing. Share it with Holden and do it right.
I find it interesting on how many people complain on the web about no Pontiac but at the large POCI and Pontiac Nationals few people mourn. To the real diehards in the Pontiac hobby we would like to have Pontiac but we want it only if it is done right. Right now there is no way it would have done right and may have damaged any future shots at doing it right.
Too many think the GTP era was the golden years but the truth was that was the decline years and you really need to visit the true golden era of 57-79.
I think GM now has management that can do them right but it is still a matter they have not finished the changes on what they have now. When they reach that point where everything is fixed to where it needs to be then lets give it a Performance Division a shot.
Much of what Pontiac had that was right were broken rules. Much of what they did not get was stopped by Chevy. As John Schinella once said Chevy sells more cars so Chevy got more say.
Pontiac of the 80’s and 90’s showed exactly what was wrong at GM in the way they handled the Pontiac division. It was a perfect case study of how things at GM were so messed up. They took a winner and killed it because they had no idea how to handle them.
Folks, respectfully…give it up.
Pontiac in the U.S. was a FANCY CHEVY for the first 25 or so years of its existence. Its equivalents were DeSoto at Chrysler and Edsel at FoMoCo. The brand was going to be killed off when Bunkie Knudsen and John DeLorean won the reprieve they’d campaigned for.
And so we got the Performance Division of GM.
Yet that performance division operated in a world where GM held 50% market share and one in four new vehicles sold wore a Bowtie. There was plenty of room for Chevy and GM to BOTH pursue performance – one via a line of SS models, plus Corvette; the other via a (sorry, Ford) total performance DNA – without stepping on each other’s toes.
But then came the 1971 Nova clones – IMO the first chink in the performance armor…the first new “fancy Chevy” since the 50’s. By 1982, the unique Pontiac or BOP drivetrains were pretty much gone…
…so why, exactly, did Pontiac have any reason to exist, now that they were, once again, as they were before 1957, FANCY CHEVIES?
Can you name me even one Pontiac vehicle built after 1982 that couldn’t have worked as a Chevy?
Bonnevilles of the 90’s? Sweet ride. Could’ve been a FWD Chevy Impala SS. Leave the Caprice on the B-Body. It’s what they’re doing RIGHT NOW, selling separate Caprice and Impala lines, even if only cops and fleets can buy the Caprice.
G8? Chevrolet SS. Already going on.
Solstice? Weren’t there multiple small Chevy concept cars, even a cool Nomad reboot?
There is no longer room in today’s marketplace for a separate and distinct performance division within GM. That’s Chevy’s job now, and as it just so happens, Chevrolet has a rich performance legacy and the “everyman” bonafides only a couple other brands can pull off.
It’s right and correct for Chevy to move a little upscale, just as Ford did long ago. The low price field is crowded with names that didn’t exist, at least in the U.S., fifty or even 30 years ago. And as has been noted above, Chevy sells more cars…about 70% of GM volume in the U.S., if you didn’t already know.
The question today, to me, is whether Buick and/or GMC should go on. If Chevrolet continues improving their product line, and Buick/GMC fail to offer enough differentiation, that question may require an answer from the General.
Fiero and Solstice would never be a Chevy.
In one way I agree that Pontiac became a fancy Chevy. I have stated so in the past.
On the other hand Pontiac if they were to return to their engineering roots and own drivetains or at least their own versions would be the way to do it. But with the added development cost today the profits would be minimal or the prices too high for what you got.
I think most of us here understand this today. There are just some hard feelings from two different generations of Pontiac owners.
Once GM is healthy I could see them maybe doing something through Buick dealers but that would be long time from now and a long shot at best.
I think many forget Pontiac originally was set to die in the early 80’s till the sale of Grand Am’s took off as well as some of the other models and left Olds on the hot seat when the Cutlass cooled off.
Things did not just get bad in the last couple years.
As for Buick and GMC it is easy to understand. They both are two of the major profit centers for GM. You make money you are relevent. if you make little money of no money you are a past division.
As long as GMC and Buick remain profitable they will remain relevant. Nothing surprising there.
Here’s that ‘Obama and Gov’ ruined things argument again.
Hey — if GM knew how to run a company instead of itself into the ground, they could have made all the calls.
By the way — it turns out GM Financial is trying to do this to themselves all over again. John Oliver just did a piece about subprime auto loans — and GM better get out of this practice because we won’t bail them out twice.
Hit YouTube and enter ‘Auto Lending: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver’ for more
Its not an argument. Nobody said it was the governments fault for ruining things. Just that since GM didn’t file for bankruptcy they had to abide by some stipulations if they were to receive the bailout money. And well said Scott
“Nobody said it was the governments fault for ruining things.”
Find related thread and be educated.
These Pontiac articles make me so mad, just wondering what could have been is killing me. One question though, wouldnt the updated Pontiac G8 have looked like the SS? Or did they do an emergency redesign once Pontiac was killed? Also I’m still waiting for the day when the redesign of the G6 leaks out. Kind of like the SAAB 9-3 Pheonix did. (AND THE UNRELEASED 9-3 PHEONIX WAS AMAZING)
The problem with Pontiac as well as the other brands they axed was they were all the same cars with different badges. GM should let the Branches develop their own distinctive models. GM ruined Saturn by doing this. The 2009 Saturn Aura was the same car as the Chevy Malibu and Pontiac G6 just to name a few. Even though GM still does it it’s not as bad. There are clear differences between Chevy, Buick and Cadillac now with a few models that cross over.
Agreed.
But at this point I see this simply as a branding issue. I’m not a performance car person at all —
— but if you took the Chevy SS and rebadged it as the Pontiac Whatever —
— I bet most people would be more interestedin the Pontiac version. Simply from a marketing brand angle. And so really you don’t need some entire division doing anything they’re not already doing somewhere else in GM. For instance a dumbed down Cadillac could be branded as a Pontiac.
I mean there’s basically on Corvette. What’s the big deal of one Pontiac?
It was not a branding issue.
Pontiac was called GM’s performance division and GM drove them to a point they had no real performance other than two FWD cars in the SSEI and GTP. Nice cars but not what die hard performance fans look for.
The SS struggles over the G8 due to the fact it is expensive and only offered with a couple options like with or without a sun roof where the G8 could be had in many versions. Also the SS is a old car by todays standards. Nice car but the Zeta is at the end of the line compared to the Alpha.
Well you said it Dumbing down of Cadillac. That would be dumb if you are working all new models to create the image they need.
At this point the Pontiac brand is a minor thing for most buyers. Yes there are some diehards but most could care less. I do agree that you build the car right and offer it at the right price in Buick or Chevy and it would just as well.
An Impala SS on an Alpha priced a little lower than the SS would be a good car and a V6 non SS as well a Turbo 4 would compliment the line and do well. While still not a volume of past Impala’s it would fill a segment that is need.
Also factor in people will buy mostly CUV models anyways and only a small number are performance based, It would be nice to see some performance version but it would have only a small impact as the Ford Edge now in the performance mode is a rare sight.
Note I treat Branding and Marketing differently. One is how you make it and how you make it appeal to people. the other is how you sell it or market it to the people.
I said, “But at this point I see this simply as a branding issue.”
You said, “It was not a branding issue.”
As. Not was. Two entirely different topics.
What was then still as is today, They need their own products but at that price point that would be difficult to do and damn near impossible with out global sales.
The truth be said the lack of global sales killed Pontiac in the end. If they had been selling outside N America they may have had a shot but like Holden the market was too small for all the car they built. Development cost have to be leveraged globally.
Now if you turned numbers like trucks and CUV models of 250K or more then you can get away with smaller markets.
Case in point GM sells about twice the number of Terrains and Nox than Holden sells cars down under. When you sell that many of one model then you have more financial leverage.
No issue with the Pontiac name today. The same people who liked them when they died would like them today. But the problem would be they still would have to be shared with a global model be it a Chevy or Holden. But now that Holden is now mostly Chevy and will be some Opel not any open doors there.
“What was then still as is today — ”
— you’re still off topic. You’re discussing Pontiac historically. I’m talking about any value the brand might have next week to fresh eyes. Completely different subject.
Right now — as you read this — Buick is asking new generations to consider what a Buick WILL be. Not what it was.
I’ve seen the ads. They don’t yearn of some yesteryear. The ads in fact JEER at old Buick. Which is smart — since many people couldn’t pick out a classic Buick if they tried. And if they knew what the old brand meant (luxury for fogies) they’d even be less interested.
As you said, “the Pontiac brand is a minor thing for most buyers. Yes there are some diehards but most could care less.” In branding that’s not all bad — because not caring less means they have no negative connotations.
Suppose you found 1000 Americans who only knew Japanese cars. Never heard of one GM car. Ever. And you simply asked them — “Which car would you rather buy? A Buick or a Pontiac?” — Pontiac would likely win.
Why? As crazy as this sounds — it’s more fun to say. It sounds like power. Is it a horse of some kind? An Indian? A river? A mountain range? Who knows, who cares. It works.
In branding comes a second question. That red arrow emblem. Sad or awesome? Not based upon an history. I’m talking about fresh eyes. If you compare that emblem and name to Subaru’s name and emblem, fresh eyes would probably think Pontiac is cooler somehow.
This entire discussion is for a simple reason: is the Pontiac branding at all attractive to new eyes? I’d bet yes. So now — and only now — GM should ask itself if it’s worth having ONE Pontiac branded car. As they do with the Corvette. If yes —
— it’s at this point they’d dive into the brand’s history and see if some sort of performance vehicle would make sense. Now, understand, when I say performance I’m NOT speaking of history. I’m NOT speaking of sedans or sports car. Performance, to new eyes, would likely mean nothing more than “It kicks ass”.
“Pontiac kicks ass” is branding/marketing. If you asked me to choose between the Chevy SS and the IDENTICAL Pontiac 7 — I’d buy the Pontiac. SS still has Nazi associations. And Chevy can be a Spark. Why buy performance vehicle from someone who sells the Spark?
So, in a nutshell, there’s no need to bring Pontiac back. But the brand and emblem? It takes decades and fortunes to establish such things. I think the ol’ girl still has some life in her.
I have a question: What would’ve happened to the Vibe, G5, G3 and Torrent? Would the G5 have continued as a rebadged Cruze sedan/hatch? The G3 would’ve been a rebadged Sonic or would it have been killed off? Would the next generation Torrent take the place of the Vibe? And could Pontiac have gotten a Lambda crossover? And what about Saturn?
Pontiac could not have gone on as they were and with the way CUV models are selling I am not sure just a few models would have lasted on their own.
Pontiac needed as much investment as Cadillac but their issue was they were and are not as profitable as Cadillac.
So you say that Pontiac would have gotten more crossovers?
Hell there is not a brand or company that is not going to increase cross overs outside some low volume exotic MFG and even some of them are getting them.
That is where the market is and where the money is.
They were one of the first to have a CUV with the Aztek, Torrent. Be not the best but some of the first.
Just not sure there is a big performance segment there at that price range. The ones that do well are much more pricey like Porsche.
Cadillac would be a prime place for a V series CUV but no the XT5. Something on the Omega would be prime.
Well, that’s true. Every brand DOES need crossovers.
I think it would be unavoidable in this market.
I never thought they should have had the Torrent but I guess they saw the market coming and had to join it then.
The Terrain at some point was a Pontiac and they restyled it to make it a GMC. This is why the dash lights are still red.
I never knew that!
I am a sales consultant at a Buick/GMC/Cadillac dealership. One thing that some of the “long timers” yearn for is the days when Pontiac was at our dealership too (I’ve been selling here since the July, 2010). Back then, you had vehicles in a wide range of prices to appeal to a wide range of customers. Currently, our “cheapest” vehicle is $25K+.
Pontiacs always had a certain style over and above their Chevy counterparts… I have personally had three Pontiac coupes in a row — A 2001 Grand Am GT1, a 2008 G6 GXP Street Edition, and now a 2002 Grand Prix GT (the last year for the coupe).
I don’t think that people cross-shopped Pontiac vs. Chevy the way that they currently cross-shop GMC vs. Chevy for pickups. If you wanted an arrowhead on the front of your new car, that’s what you wanted!
Many people cross shopped Chevy and Pontiac. The styling in the later years was the major difference as was price. You had Pontiac fans, You had Chevy fans and then you has the Pontiac fans that could not get as good of a price on a Pontiac as a Chevy and often defaulted to Chevy.
Chevy was very protective of this and often was mad at Pontiac and would do things to hurt them.
The Fiero was killed by the Corvette guys. I have sat and read the confidential papers outlining the meeting that killed the car and knew some folks that were in on it. Chevy was worried as the Fiero improved with more power and better chassis it would cut into already dropping C4 sales. Note GM did order the Corvette dead in 92 accept they disobey the ruling.
Chevy was mad Pontiac got the Series III SC 3800 and they only got the Premium only Series II. Things like this have long been an issue at GM. The divisions were very territorial and Chevy was the one on top and got the most influence.
This is what lead to many problems GM management could never figure out.
Engineering was the strong suit of Pontiac but GM would veto much of it unless they went rogue.
The Fiero was canceled several times yet Pontiac broke rules. The GTO in 64 broke the CID rule but when it sold they could not get Delorean then but they did later.
The 455 SD was a rogue engineering project.
Many other things they did over the years were broken rules or disobeyed outlines. When Pontiac got cracked down for it Chevy often was standing behind as the jealous sibling.
Now Pontiac customers were pretty loyal till 1979 as most treasured the 400 V8 and it’s variations but later on many of the Pontiac owners were just styling customers as most original Pontiac owners never accepted the Corporate platforms. Silly but I can see their point as often the heart of a Pontiac was their engine.
Later on like I pointed out you could not get a LNF turbo in anything but a Solstice GXP. That engine should have been in 2-3 other Pontiac cars.
Herb Adams. John Delorean Collins, Goad and others all got what Pontiac was. I think Mark Reuss gets what it really means to be a Pontiac but till he fixes the rest of the lines his money and man power are tied up.
Most people did not cross shop Chevy and GMC because of styling and Denali. Today the Chevy is now attracting more buyers with the new styling and yet the Denali is still holding it’s own.
Marc the three cars you owned are great Pontiac. But even they were seen by many as never being a real Pontiac.
To give you an example of hard this thinking runs with many is the Fiero. It was only sold By Pontiac, It was built in Pontiac and it with the 4 cylinder had a real Pontiac motor but even it at times is looked down on for not being a Pontiac. I do not know how much more Pontiac you can be. Even the V6 used parts no one else used and had the most power of any 2.8.
This is part of why there is little sadness at the largest Pontiac meets.
As some already know here, I’m a man from Spain has begun to love American cars because of Pontiac, in 90’s; Firebird Trans Am and Trans Sport had all my love and attention, in my opinion Pontiac has always had that unique and personal style.
Sport bodies, aggressive and direct style, I think what has hurt Pontiac was in the 80s unable to offer high performance cars; rebels cars as is its tradition, from the late twentieth century; not sell the precious Trans Am, and the disappearance of unique and traditional models such as Grand Prix, Bonneville; Grand Am (the best selling in its category in 1998 sedan) and the “new” make cars that are Opel and Holden twins, the American buyer has seen it as an offense and stopped buying.
Here in Spain everyone wants a Pontiac Firebird Trans Am 1968-1981, but nobody wants to know a G8 G6 and Solstice, they are not considered real Pontiacs.
When you have a car that is being sold for 40 years, you do not stop, it is very difficult for a society accepts and appreciates the car and get used to them their names and styles over the years.
Pontiac should have been reduced to a niche brand, coupled will Cadillac for powertrains/platforms ( minus the “luxury”)
Today, a special edition Pontiac Firebird should be produced for fans. It should be little more than a higher end trim level seeing as a unique model would be far too expense to engineer. The SS should have stayed Pontiac and been sold at a reasonable price point to counter Dodge Charger.
Just weighing in as one who owned 14 Pontiacs, starting with a 1965 GTO. I loved the Pontiac brand but much was done over the years to tarnish the Pontiac image. I did, however, truly enjoy a 1988 Fiero GT that I owned for 17 years and just recently sold, as well as 2 GTP Grand Prix’s (1998 and 1999), a 2005 Grand Prix GXP and finally a 2008 G8 GT. We also had a couple of Sunfire convertibles that my wife enjoyed. We would have bought a Solstice if it had a power top. My wife now drives a Buick Cascada.
I would love to see Pontiac return as a limited performance brand under the GMC division. The divisional infrastructure already exists, so a PMD would not be necessary. Maybe just a couple of models that could be profitable without robbing other GM sales.
With todays technology and quality coming from General Motors those of us that were fans of Pontiac would like to see the resurrection of the division . The last Pontiac I had was a 2005 Grand Prix GXP coupe in red . And for the time those bucket seats were very comfortable . And one of the coolest cars I have ever had .
Sadly we will never see the division again and in this market full of SUV’s they would have a hard time .
Remember the GMC Terrain was actually going to be a Pontiac Torrent . Maybe thats why I like my Terrain so much .
The way to do it would be to treat Pontiac as like a AMG, OPC or HVS like division.
But then again until Cadillac is fixed and Buick gets all their new product this is not at the top of the list of profit priorities.
I would sell it in a Buick/GMC dealer at a higher price point than it was and deliver a more euro like car than Chevy.
But this is not going to happen soon if ever.
Dismantling the middle-class one car at a time, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Mercury, Plymouth…..
Thomas they are not dismantling the middle class. Companies just can no longer offer so many divisions nor models as the cost to meet regulations and the cost of engineering is just too great for many companies to take anymore.
I think too many fail to remember GM lost more divisions than this years ago. Anyone remember the LaSalle?
How about the Maquette? Oakland, Elmore, Welch, Viking, Rapid Truck etc.
Times change and markets change. We lost many brands back in the depression and as of now we have lost some companies recently and we will see more brands go away before long.
The fact you see GM and Ford working together on transmissions and Honda and GM working on products is very telling. Even the mighty Toyota is working with several companies including BMW.
Few can do it today with out a dance partner. Be it a working agreement or a merger.
The Sloan system died a good while ago and it is just now they are weeding it out.
Getting rid of Pontiac was a way to open the doors to more and more foreign manufactures. Just look at the Mazda’s, Fiat’s and others that have moved it to take the place of the cars that GM once sold. And by the way, GM is not the # 1 manufacturer any more, and won’t be anymore with out Pontiac . They should bring back the performance division before it is too late for the whole company.
Bla bla bla……Re badged Holden’s does not make a Pontiac. Pontiac died long before 2009.
You obviously have never driven a G8 GT.
I have. G8 is not a Pontiac. It’s a Holden.
Multimatic builds the new Ford GT in Canada. It’s still considered a Ford GT. Holden is at least a division of GM. So they can build a Pontiac performance car. Opel builds Regals and Cascadas for Buick. That’s today’s automotive world.
So we can’t have a true TA for now anyway.!
Why can’t we have T Tops in a camaro ? GM
Just can’t get it together