This isn’t the first time this topic has been brought up. We’ve discussed it a handful of times, but with the latest spy shots of something clearly mid-engined running around General Motors proving grounds, Autoblog has taken a stab.
There are some valid points in this theory, such as the fact the C7 Corvette has only been around since 2014. A C8, Zora, ZR-1 or whatever you want to title the mid-engined Corvette would cut short a very successful lifecycle for the C7. Sure, they could be sold side-by-side, but are the bean counters ready to finance that operation? Likely, no.
Not to mention, a mid-engined Corvette would be alienating what the Corvette is, and always has been: front-engine, rear-wheel drive and a massive V8 engine. We’re not sure if the Camaro is ready to fill in as what the Corvette always has been, the demographics don’t find much common ground.
A mid-engined Cadillac would certainly be taking a cue from Audi’s playbook. But, remember who’s in charge of Cadillac: former Audi chief, Johan de Nysschen. Maybe de Nysschen knows what’s best.
Or, maybe the Corvette team doesn’t give a damn, and they’re busy making a bonkers sports car.
Comments
Stop the click bait here and stop it now.
Lets set this straight. The car that is being seen now is a Corvette and only a Corvette at this point. There are many stories with accurate comments from GM staff that have made it clear where this is going right now, Many were posted right here on GM Authority.
#1 The Corvette team has been planning to go mid engine back while the C6 was out. Bob Lutz stated in Car and Driver Tadge came to him wanting the C7 to be mid engine then. He was directed to go Front engine do to the lack of money at the time. The program for the Mid engine was slowed but still progressed while the C7 went on to production.
#2 JDN has acknowledged there is a advanced Corvette platform and it could make for an interesting Cadillac. But he also has made it clear that there is no it would be seen till 2025. He stated clearly Cadillac has many holes to fill in their line up before they worry about a low volume sports car.
#3 JDN also has stated clearly his vision of a Halo Car is a large convertible 4 door. he said it would best represent what Cadillac made best in it’s prime.
#4 As for price stop with the no one would pay $200K for a Chevy while Ford will sell out the GT at $500K.
#5 Look for the Corvette to remain a Chevy here but globally go under the Corvette name. It can then be sold as a Holden, Opel or what ever line GM has in that part of the world.
#6 The IMSA and WEC rules favor mid engine now, They have taken the C7 to the limit per what Tadge has started and the only way to get more power to the ground is mid engine. Also the rule ten to favor turbocharging so I expect some variation there at some point.
I posted links to some of this in the mid engine vette thread.
The bottom line is Cadillac needs to fix all their cars and get their line up to where it needs to be before worrying about a halo sports car. If you want to attract attention you had better have your line up in order. Cadillac has put the cart before the horse before and put a sports car out while they were struggling with FWD sedans or RWD sedans that still were not class leading.
The $12Billion is there to fix the ATS, CTS and all the new CUV and SUV models they lack right now. This is where the money is going to be made and not with a 400 unit $400K sports car.
On the other hand the Corvette can represent all of GM globally and Chevy pretty much has their house in order as of now. It is time to attract attention to it too.
I am fine if you disagree but back it up with statements from GM that would lend any reality to this being a Cadillac.
I can repost some of mine later when I get home if needed. Most if you want can be found on this web site from the last 4 years.
Magazines and web sites like to play this BS for attention. and have no real proof of it happening before 2025.
Seems Sean is writing all the articles on this site. Which leads me to believe either the site isnt doing well (cant afford writers) or it just fluff pieces to gain clicks for reason #1.
If there is a cadillac sports car it will be a rebadged corvette again.
I doubt that’ll happen though.
I agree fully.
Would Ford make the GT front engined? TTV6 is fine because it produces more power than a crap Ford V8 and the ACO can “mistake” their BoP, but front-engined? How about a rear-engined Mustang, it would still seat four, no?
Would BMW make the 3-series into a truck?
Would Mercedes make the S class into a lightweight convertible?
Would GM make the Corvette anything different from the sales success it already is?
Meanwhile, de Nysschen remembers what the R8 did for Audi in America…
Remember when Ferrari replaced the Daytona with the 512BB? Then the Testarossa? Awful cars that flopped. Then Montezemolo came in and replaced the Testarossa with the 550 Maranello and sales took off. Top Fezza’s have been front-engined since. GM won’t make that mistake with the Corvette. Ferrari also makes the 488, and GM will also make the Caddy “R8”
Why would GM take a 2-seat $60-70k sales success and replace it with a $150k gamble and have nothing left to fill the $60-70k hole? A 4-seat (heavier) Camaro Z28 is not that niche-filler, even the Camaro6 ZL1 weighs more than 3800lbs, while a Grand Sport weighs maybe 3300lbs. Everybody is saying “smart folk know that this mid-engine-mule is a Corvette not a Caddy” but seriously, where is the $60-70k Corvette profit going to come from? If you think Barra and Reuss don’t want that money, you’re wrong!
Or GM keeps the Front Engine in production as a Corvette Stingray and then brings the Mid Engine car out as a Corvette Zora.
Ferrari has been doing that for years with the Front engine cars as well as offering the higher level F50, Enzo and Laferrari.
Chevy has already shown people will pay $65K for a ZR1 and $75K for a Z28 as well as $108K for a Zo6 that is selling at a record rate and in the past the ZR1 topped $120K with no issue in sales. No rebates needed to be offered to move them.
There is a 700 HP plus Vette coming in the Front engine and it will again top $120k and sell out.
Mary and Mark both want money and they know there is money to be made in both areas with this model.
How many years have they hinted they were looking at a cheaper Corvette? Well the fact is the world moved on and the Corvette Stingray is today the Cheaper Corvette. Just keep it going as it is not old and continue to enhance the brand with a more to the limit car that can compete with the worlds best while still undercutting the price of the Ford GT by half.
What I think you miss here to is the car even at $200K and at a lower volume will make as much or more profit than the Corvette at $65K and higher volume.
Ferrari is not making money in volume if you look at production numbers.
cadillac needs to build a convertible before it invests into a mid engine car.
I would like to see an Alpha or sub Alpha based Z3 like roadster with a good trunk and decent room in it. This would sell in volumes that would make a profit at prices where you can sell 25K units per year with no issue.
Toss in a V6 and TT V6 V series version and you will make money and sell a lot of cars.
Then you add a C8 based car in 2025 when the rest of the line is up to the level it needs to be in to have the spot light on it.
Being a large man, I’m not one for little roadsters, but sir I would buy the shit out of a roadster Cadillac.
Being a large man, I would buy the shit out of an Omega based grand tourer like the Elmiraj. Roadsters will never be my thing, even with a Cadillac badge.
AN ELDORADO SPORT WAGON SUV ,will give CADDY A REAL practical ,but fast HALO with 3.6 ttV6 !
Why does the mid engine corvette have to be priced at $150k? Absolutely no reason. There is little more in a mid engine car than a front drive. Same engine cost. Same interior cost. Same body cost. Same front suspension cost.
Might be a bit more due to a specific trans but not $80k more. In fact I believe they could charge less due to the volume increase it would get. Most of the high cost of a vette(vs say camaro) is due to low volume payoff of tooling.
Being an outsider now I cannot be sure but I really doubt Chevy will go with two 2 seaters. Volume is just too low to put the human resources/cost into two Chevys. The Cadillac specific is possible but I really doubt it.
They will be adding content the present car does not have.
Look for more carbon fiber and exotic materials. Also expect more advanced engine systems and possible hybrid system at some point.
Also you will sell this in lower volumes so you make it up in price.
As it is I expect GM still to sell this car for about half of what most cars it will compete with in this segment.
Also the suspension and other bits may be much more advanced as the higher price does not limit the kind of things they can toss into this car.
Right now the Stingray has limits placed on it. While the car may be balanced the physics are hampered in the movement on during handling. There is a difference between balanced and where exactly the weight is in relation to polar movement.
Also you have a lower frontal area for better aero.
I still believe both Vettes will be in play at least for a while. At some point the cost of the Mid engine can come down to cheaper models.
To be honest the C7 is an amazing car period and when you price it then it becomes a major wonder. Few companies could do so much for so little in price. Now think what GM could do with more money and price to work with. We could see a car that could challenge the Million Dollar hyper cars at some point for 1/4 the price.
Word is leaking that the base model for the Mid engine could come in around $75K to $85K.
If true that would be very interesting and devastating to many of the higher priced models.
My bet is that Cadillac will get a version of this mid-engined car before all is said and done.
The reason why people think that the mid-engine sports car will be a Cadillac is because no one throws away $150 Million in month sales away; Chevrolet sold over 2,500 Corvette in May and it is unlikely General Motors would be willing to abandon this type of sales volume to their competitors as the only way to keep the marketshare plus add the mid-engine is for it to be a Cadillac CT9 flagship or the Corvette Zora.
Expect a Stingray and Zora now a Cadillac later on.
No one is abandoning anything.
Note talk has been that the mid and front engine cars would not only be sold side by side but also share many parts on s platform that could support both.
I would like to explain more on Mid Engine that people do not always consider. I missed it myself till doing some tuning on a race car and it came fully to me then.
While a balanced 50/50 car is prime for handling one consideration you must have is where is all that weight placed.
Take a barbell that is 5 feet long. You place 50 pounds on each side and it is a perfect balance of 50/50 similar to the present C7 with the engine up front and the transaxle in the back.
Note if you take that bar and twist it the weight has a lot of power and can create polar moment and it takes a lot of energy to control it with your wrist.
Now place the weight closer to the point you are holding it in the center and then twist your wrist. Note that your wrist does not take as much energy to control it as the weight is closer to the polar center of the bar. This is how you can increse handling of a car buy moving the weight to the center.
Now you really can put it perfectly in the center but you can get it closer and you can get it lower.
When you come down to it this is pretty much simple physics.
In the C7 they increased the wheel base and moved the engine back more to get it closer to the center of the car be it up front. While it increased handling it did increase the length of the wheel base as a compromise. Also it creates issues in packaging the interior with the engine back farther.
Now putting the engine behind you can increase the center weight and not infringe into the passenger area as much. Now it is not a perfect center but it is more centered as well as letting you put the passengers even lower for less frontal area of the car since the cowl does not need to be as tall.
If you note all the new V12 front engine Ferrari’s are longer wheel base and most mid engines. Also note when they go for the ball to the wall performance they always go mid engine.
Also understand not all mid engine cars are equal. Some are not as well placed due to the type of engine and transaxle. Some can carry too much rear bias and lose performance too. This is where the higher cost cars can create all they need unlike a Car like a MR2 or Fiero that has to use an off the shelf item.
I hope this helps as it is something I did not come to grips with either for a while. Setting up a car for competition with some help from someone who taught me this really made sense of it.
This kind of thinking applies to many types of performance cars from F1 in a curve to even a Soap Box Derby car on how it handles the hill transition and not lose speed. It is all about management of the mass of the car and where it is centered for your needs. Balance is good but centered is better.
For what it’s worth fellas….
http://blog.caranddriver.com/c8-in-2018-the-latest-on-the-mid-engine-chevrolet-corvette/
Plus one. This is the Area 54 I posted in the other thread.
It makes it clear what they are using for bench marks.
Also they have been working at night out of this building and even many GM employees know little about this program.
To be honest most photo’s are planned and the one we have here in day light I am sure was not an accident. GM knows where cars can be seen even from a mile away. My inside people said when they want to leak they take parts of the proving grounds where they want to be seen.
I suspect after LeMans they may have wanted to send a signal they are still working on the car.
It was a signal to the faithful and new one alike that something bigger and better is planned.
Yes, they know when and where cars can be seen. All manufacturer do and most plan to be seen for free promotion. All marketing, boys and girls,
Yup that sounds correct. Slightly more expensive than the current vette. Still affordable but a heck lot more than the new 84 I bought($25k). Then again I only made $24k in 1983 and today I would be making over 4 times that.
Also how much was a Malibu then. Today it can set you back $35K.
$24k buys little today unfortunately.
This story is about excitement.. and it makes you think back when Cadillac actually built their mid-engine Cien concept car which suggests that someone within Cadillac thought a sports car could be the company’s flagship; it’s difficult to say never because how many people could have imagine Cadillac building the 200 mph CTS-V.
If you could please briefly put aside some of the important discussions re: market strategy, product segment fitment, etc. for a moment por favor… I’d just like to interject: am I the only one who still thinks Nysschen was/is a colossal idiot?
He’s been squinting at those Audi headlights for too long and guess he got lost on the way to GMHQ and ended up in Manhattan paying an extra +30% on the dollar.