During our time with the 2016 Chevrolet Cruze, we had the opportunity to pick the engineering team’s brains a tad. Naturally, as enthusiasts, we were curious as to where Chevrolet stands regarding compact performance vehicles. The question is currently unanswered within the brand’s portfolio, and the second-generation Cruze makes for an ample time to answer it.
Speaking with Craig Weddle, one of the lead development engineers for the 2016 Cruze, we asked how the brand feels about Ford and its Focus line of performance vehicles. Weddle stated Chevrolet is watching what Ford continues to do with its compact hatchback, and alluded to discussions within the team over a performance-oriented Cruze.
The question is, is there a market for it? Chevrolet has dipped its toes into the arena with the 2016 Chevrolet Camaro turbo, featuring the 2.0-liter LTG boosted four-cylinder. The 2.0L seems like a natural fit for a prospective “Cruze SS”, but there are no promises right now. Weddle made it clear, without confirming, the team has brought it up.
On paper, the business case differentiates itself. A performance Cruze sedan, or a hatchback, would be a completely different animal from the Camaro turbo, but pricing and market may eat into one another’s potential sales.
Weddle stated the Cruze sedan, hatchback and upcoming diesel were only “step one” for the second-generation car, with more to come down the road. Whether a hot hatch, or sedan, is born from the Cruze remains to be seen.
Comments
“On paper, the business case differentiates itself. A performance Cruze sedan, or a hatchback, would be a completely different animal from the Camaro turbo, but pricing and market may eat into one another’s potential sales.”
Tired of hearing this.
There is an ATS-V and a CTS-V….are they not possibly cutting into each others sales?
The Camaro SS and ZL1 possibly cutting into Corvette Stingray sales??
I mean get real already a $25k-$30k Cruze performance variant will be FWD compared to the 2.0T Camaro RWD. and that is just one major difference.
There is a market for a tuner Cruze performance car. Look at it this way get the top dog Cruze or get the entry level 2.0 Camaro. Some consumers do see it that way.
How about instead of thinking conservatively…Think this way:
The 2.0 turbo Cruze performance car will eat into the Focus ST and RS…eat into the VW Golf GTI…eat into the Honda Civic si…eat into the Ford Fiesta ST sales…eat into the Subaru BRZ & WRX.
Chevy needs to flex it’s muscle a little bit.
Cruze performance varient along with the CAMARO, CORVETTE & SS SEDAN will give them a performance car in the main segments.
Even though times are changing, Chevrolet is still the division that needs to keep it’s performance image that is within grasp of the regular consumer.
Dr. F
Agree with your post.
The engineering to make a Cruze ‘SS’ seems readily available through the existing GM parts bin.
If the costs are not to much why not put the model out there and see how it does?
Agree that the Cruze ‘SS’ would go after a different buyer than the base Camaro and would leverage sales from other manufacturers preferred by the ‘tuner crowd’.
Agreed , we have a Cruze ltz rs , but would love to have a 2l turbo SS like the old Cobalt . The SS Cobalt was a great car and way ahead of the competition in its day.
GM has the engines and powertrain in this chassis as they already do the 2 l Verano. Come on Chevy just build it
I have no intention of buying 2.0L Camaro, but I’m considering a Ford Focus. Right now I’m driving a 2014 Cruze and I would love to turn it in for a Cruze SS with the 2.0L turbo.
GM needs to put their heads out of the butt and listen to people. I use my Cruze to commute to work, if I had an SS Cruze I would do the same with it. Now a Camaro, that would set in my driveway and be driven around town or a car my wife would drive with the kids.
At a day and time where Ford is making a performance Fusion, Chevy has no excuse. There’s already no excuse for them not having a performance Sonic. I think GM is afraid of SS brand dilution, but they should save that kind of focus for Cadillac.
Come to think of it, I wish GM’s strategy would take the Chevy Red Line concept further and maintain the “spirit” of their defunct marques. In this Case, I’d rather see Chevy pick up Pontiac, Geo, and Saturn’s product missions in different segments. Maybe throw in a few Easter eggs. For example:
-GXP (Pontiac): A special edition of a possible full-size RWD Chevy sedan, performance Cruze, and a “spartan” Camaro? “Pontiac” Chevy trims and accessories will compete directly with the others from Detroit.
-Red Line (Saturn): High-trim Malibu; meant to compete with: Accord V6, Camry Sport, Fusion Sport, Subaru Legacy
-Geo: Obviously high-trim Volt, Spark, and Bolt and the rest of the highest efficiency vehicles Chevy has to offer.
Plus something for Hummer. Tahoe and Suburban SS?
Hummer: GMCs optimized for off-roading. Skid plates, light bars, winches, suspension upgrades, etc. all factory installed.
And just how many are they selling?
To be honest with the way sedans are selling today a performance Nox may do even better.
That too. Equinox Red Line.
SS= “Enthusiast” performance: (Camaro SS, Impala SS?, and Blazer SS?) and compact (Cruze/Sonic SS)
Red Line= “Pedestrian” performance: Malibu Red Line, Equinox Red Line, Trax Red Line, Traverse Red Line
Why not Volt Z07?
What about the Volt Z07? Please reply if you want to know.
I’ve said before that Chevrolet and Buick should draw naming inspiration from the defunct brands. Malibu is a damaged name plate; Chevrolet Cutless would have saved the day. I also think Bonneville would be great over at Buick as would Tempest and even a GTO.
If its a damaged nameplate how is it up 37% in sales from last year? The new MY Malibu is selling fairly well for a damaged nameplate. Besides if the name should be changed then revert it back to its original name the chevelle. If not than have a performance trim and that trim being chevelle just like back in the 60s and 70s where the chevelles premium trim was called Malibu. But at this point the Malibu is doing fairly well on sales better than what I expected from its first model year.
New Malibu is a very refined vehicle. Like it so much better than my sister-in-law’s Fusion.
SS Cruze and Sonic would do well with the 20 something and even me. I have a Cruze, since I have a 60 mile round trip commute to work and I would trade it in, in a heartbeat for an SS Cruze with the 2.0L. Don’t want them to slap the 1.5L turbo in a Cruze and call it an SS. They could slap the 1.5L in the Spark and call it an SS.
I hope GM comes to their senses. They need to start sharing their powertrains across platforms. For instance, the 3.0L TT in the Cadillac should be used in the Camaro and recalibrated for torque and used in the 1500 series truck. I’ve driven a 3.0L TT Cadillac during the development process, damn is that little engine bad ass.
Ford shares their ecoboost across platforms, why does GM want to be so different and keep OHV engines in the trucks and not offer any other powertrain. I mean the pushrod v engine is easier to work on then the SOHC/DOHC, but it would be nice to have that option in the full size pickup. Hell they should slap a turbo on the v6 4.3L ecotec, that engine is built for forced induction.
I agree. GM is always concerned about stepping on the toes of their other models and brands. Point in case is no All Wheel drive option for the Impala. Why, because they are afraid to eat into the Buick LaCrosse sales. That is just plain stupid because if I wanted an All Wheel drive car I’m not going from Chevy to Buick, I will look elsewhere.
At least to have 1.5t like on malibu .
If a Cruze performance trim is introduced will it be on the hatchback only or both?
Looking forward to see how this unfolds.
I want to see it unfold with 2, 4, and 5-door variants.
Well put Dr. Fatso!
I will wait a year for it, and then it’s a Focus ST(not a Camaro). Sorry.
Not sure what you mean here?
If the performance option doesn’t become available, then I’ll have to get the Focus ST.
OK..got you..
That’s exactly what my coworker did. He was going to get a 2016 Cruze, but he wanted something with a little more power and still compact. He know has the AWD 2.3L Focus.
GM turned their back on the sport compact/hot hatch market several years ago. They seem to think the Camaro cover that audience? For the most part, it doesn’t. The Camaro is fine at it’s mission, very good in fact, but it offers very, very little everyday utility for extra people and stuff.
At this point, I would doubt they will ever offer a performance Cruze. Why? This era of GM simply does not approve vehicles for production that aren’t destined to make them big money. It’s a sound business practice for sure, but it leaves some customers no choice but to look to the GTI or Civic Si or Focus. If a Cruze “performance version” did make the cut, it would very likely be overloaded with equipment (see Cruze diesel) and very pricey.
Here is my questions.
How much would you be prepared to pay and what would the average buyer pay for a SS Cruze? Note the new Ford is listing a base price of $36,000 and options move it to over $40K fast. Same for the GTI and WRX.
You almost have to have AWD. I own a FWD 2.0 Turbo now and love it but with 315 FT LBS going to the front wheels it sucks for getting traction. How much would AWD add to the price?
How many would they sell? Keep in mind the Cobalt SS numbers were not large. Total of 1105 coupes in MY’08, 2063 MY’09 coupes and 474 MY’09 sedan (for a total of 2537 for ’09).
The HHR SS was 4519 in 08 and 2346 in 09. It went down from there volume wise.
These are not easy models to make and offer unless you do as like the others and offer them globally. The trouble is Chevy has an issue with this as they are not in places like Europe to offer these cars like Ford and VW.
Now if you do this with an Opel and Buick it also could be sold globally as this as well as a Vauxhall and Holden in OPC trim.
I would love to see a car like this appear but I really see a lot of trouble making a business case based on the Cruze model as it is.
Then what else would really hurt this is if they do this and the cost is like the others $35K and more the Camaro will hurt it with the turbo 4 even with a 1LE package offered on it for much less. Even the V6 is going to under cut the price of a properly done Cruze and odds are it will sell many times over the FWD model in North America.
I love my HHR SS and only hate the FWD as it is so hard to get it to hook up the tires. It is like a go cart to drive. But I only paid $21K for a vehicle that stickered at $28K new in 08. With inflation and now other options near the same price with RWD I am not sure I would return nor many others would even consider.
The production numbers and price are a sticky thing and we have to consider this as that is what GM is looking at. If they can get enough global sales like Ford then it makes sense but to sell 2500 units or less here in NA it is just a hard thing to see getting approved.
Not trying to be a downer but we also need to face the reality of this.
C’mon man. you just throwing base prices around?
New Subaru WRX base $26,595
http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/wrx/index.html
New 2016 Ford Focus Hatch ST $24,425 base
New 2016 Ford Focus Hatch RS $35,900 base
http://shop.ford.com/build/focus/?gnav=header-cars#/select/Config%5B%7CFord%7CFocus%7C2016%7C1%7C1.%7C.P3K…..HAT.GAS.RET.SE.~FOCUS.%5D
So by your math the new 2016 Chevy Camaro with the 2.0 turbo after adding some features gets you close to $40k.
Dude stop saying that some of these cars start at $36k…the only one that does is the Focus RS- but that has 350hp.
Stop throwing inaccurate base prices around
New Subaru WRX base $26,595
New 2016 Ford Focus Hatch ST $24,425 base
New 2016 Ford Focus Hatch RS $35,900 base
So by your math the new 2016 Chevy Camaro with the 2.0 turbo after adding some features gets you close to $40k.
Dude stop saying that some of these cars start at $36k…the only one that does is the Focus RS- but that has 350hp.
Exactly. The GTI starts at about $26K for the base, and even the SE-auto stays under $30K.
Cut the BS.
You may get a cheap base price on some of these cars most add up fast as you ad options. Most of the performance goodies are not going to be found at $26,595.
The Average price for a WRX STI is 37,212
http://www.edmunds.com/subaru/wrx/2016/sti/
Ford RS the average price is $41,680
http://www.edmunds.com/ford/focus-rs/2016/?sub=hatchback&src=1461265681909
It is common knowledge that the GTI is at $35K and the R is over $40K in the real world prices.
We also know it is well documented the 4 cylinder Camaro can be had loaded up for around $30K with the recent stories and am not talking base gutted $25K models here.
You even clearly post here the RS is right at $36K.
So Dude you can play price games but I can back up what these cars really cost and that is the big problem for Chevy.
To do this and do it right it will add to the cost of a Cruze. The real question is just how much is the average buyer willing to pay for a Cruze and just how many will GM sell? This is about making money and if you are not going to sell more than 2K units it is hard to recover the high development cost anymore.
I would love to see this car happen but I also understand what stands in the way.
It would take higher volumes than North America can handle and that is why the Opel OPC model would have a better chance and with a more upgrade car it would be easier to justify the added cost.
I am sorry if you do not understand how this all really works inside an automaker but you only want to use the numbers that work for you not the ones people really see.
Sure the Cruze will have a $17k base price but you will never get an SS for that price either. I own one of these cars and know how and why they price them that way.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
April 21, 2016 at 12:23 pm
Cut the BS.
You may get a cheap base price on some of these cars most add up fast as you ad options. Most of the performance goodies are not going to be found at $26,595.
The Average price for a WRX STI is 37,212
Ford RS the average price is $41,680
It is common knowledge that the GTI is at $35K and the R is over $40K in the real world prices.
We also know it is well documented the 4 cylinder Camaro can be had loaded up for around $30K with the recent stories and am not talking base gutted $25K models here.
You even clearly post here the RS is right at $36K.
So Dude you can play price games but I can back up what these cars really cost and that is the big problem for Chevy.
To do this and do it right it will add to the cost of a Cruze. The real question is just how much is the average buyer willing to pay for a Cruze and just how many will GM sell? This is about making money and if you are not going to sell more than 2K units it is hard to recover the high development cost anymore.
I would love to see this car happen but I also understand what stands in the way.
It would take higher volumes than North America can handle and that is why the Opel OPC model would have a better chance and with a more upgrade car it would be easier to justify the added cost.
I am sorry if you do not understand how this all really works inside an automaker but you only want to use the numbers that work for you not the ones people really see.
Sure the Cruze will have a $17k base price but you will never get an SS for that price either. I own one of these cars and know how and why they price them that way.
Note I had to remove the links to the real prices of the cars you point out as to what they really cost and not the bare bones base models that you never see bought.
My numbers above were the average selling price of these models on Edmunds. You also can find similar numbers on Truecar.
You can honestly type WRX for 26,595 when you know damn well most people only want the STI that is at least $10K or more in price.
You my friend are misleading to the max. At least I am using honest real prices you should do the same.
“misleading to the max”….that’s interesting.
I simply put the base prices down.
A Cruze performance (hatch or sedan) would be closer to the Ford Focus ST in price compared to the Ford Focus RS. And you know that’s true.
I am miss leading? You are working with unrealistic base prices by your own admission.
The ST is a sporty car but not a real performance car. Make up your mind what you want. Do you want just a little go or do you want a real STI/RS challanger?
If so you had better get your prices right.
I’m going to have to agree with Scott on this – perhaps a limited production Cruze SS might be viable? (keyword limited) The thing is, why would anyone spend money on a Cruze SS when they could get better performance out of a Camaro 2.0 for under $25K?
Those who actually own Cobalt SSes and HHRs hate that these peppy, cheap-speed cars are FWD, as Scott mentions. Car manufacturers don’t build cars people want because that’s not how businesses work – they build vehicles people will actually buy.
How about an AWD performance-oriented Cruze “SS” ? Now that would be a seller. (Benchmark the WRX and Focus RS). Just my .02.
Francisco you appear to be one of the few here that get this.
You are very accurate on the companies building what people will actually buy.
I wage the year end numbers for the RS in America will place it at 2K or less sold. I just don’t see many buyers on a car once optioned up at $40K doing that well when the Mustang is cheaper and more popular.
Besides for a little more you can get a nice Audi.
Get my post approved with the links to the Edmunds average sales price links and it will show what people are really paying here for a small econobox with a better engine.
I did find but not confirm that Ford will sell only 1500-2500 RS this year and will only make up to 10K total buy 2017 if sales demand it.
I expect it will fall short of the 10K in the end.
I agree that the volume will be small and it will be cost competitive with a Focus RS. However, it would be good for brand image. Even with the volume of the Cruze in current markets, offering 2000 high performance models per year should be achievable and sellable. The Cobalt SS is prized by that market and has developed a dedicated following. That same group has a limited overlap with potential Camaro customers. A Cruze SS (or whatever you’d want to call it.) would reach out of a different segment that prefers FWD performance over RWD.
With the profits that GM is enjoying right now and the current outlook, I see no reason why they can’t offer this by the 2018 model year. The business case is in the competitive pricing with the GTI and Focus RS and the increased brand image.
Camaros offer the Z/28, COPO, and ZL1 in limited numbers. The Corvette offers the Z06 in limited numbers. Why can’t the Cruze (that sells at higher overall volumes) offer limited numbers of a performance variant?
Just curious, you speak often about your HHR SS. two questions (2 -1/2, really)
1. What have you done to improve traction? I know a couple people with a Cobalt SS and they aren’t having as bad of an issue as you seem to be. one dyno’d at 320hp @ wheels.
2. If GM didn’t offer the HHR SS, what would you have bought instead, and do you think that alternate would offer the overall satisfaction and utility that you have with the HHR SS?
You can’t build cars just to look and feel good. A Z06, ZL1 and Z/28 can pay for them selves with the high prices but you can’t do that in the below $30K range. The more expensive a car is the less of them you have to make to recover development cost.
As for traction you can do the mounts etc but FWD sucks for traction. The weight transfer unloads the front end and limits traction. Launch control just slows you down. I have put on better tires but they will still spin rolling at 45 plus MPH.
As to what I would have bought I am not sure. I wanted a small truck but hated the Colorado in 08, I was not an HHR fan or FWD or even Turbo fan till I drove one. I also was looking at a GXP Solstice but the wife said we did not need two two seater cars.
Right now I would like to get back into a truck and hope for a modern ZQ8 Canyon like my old ZQ8 Sonoma. Not sure if that will happen but will see.
I have of late considered a Turbo Camaro or V6 with a 1LE option. That is a great performance bargain and great for every day driving.
The Cobalt SS and HHR SS were both great cars but the price kept people away. Neither were cheap unless you got lucky at the dealer like I did. I heard many say they needed AWD and this and that which they did but would adding all this and moving the price over $30K in 2008 been a good idea to increase sales?
The bottom line is I love the idea but just how much would it cost and how many would you be able to move. Limited numbers in this price segment is not something that will get a business case approved.
Well, you’re quite an authority Scott. But tell me why a 2.0T is being considered when you said that there wasn’t enough room for it?
the story said the 2.0 is being considered not GM. The D2XX was stated that it would not accept the 2.0 by GM.
Now that does not mean that GM could not make changes to the engine or the chassis.
Only GM knows for sure.
Please expand on your post. ‘Cause the Buick Verano is built on the D2XX platform and it has a 2.0 Turbo variant.
Dave I will expand on this with pleasure.
The Verano is on the Delta II platform not the D2XX, This is why the Turbo 2.0 is till in it.
I am sure you are aware the Delta II is the old version of the D2XX and only the Cruze and Volt so far in North America have been changed over.
We should see soon the new Verano on the D2XX platform soon.
As I have stated it may and it may not fit in this form. GM
To this point DAVE GM has not put a 2.0 in a D2xx car yet. I expect if it is used in this platform it would be in a CUV version like the Envision.
As to if it will fit in the Cruze that is to be determined. With cutting weight GM has cut a lot of space in these cars and I do not know if anyone here can say for sure the 2.0 will bolt in easily or not here. I hope it they have kept that provision open.
Do you need anymore expansion?
That’s what I didn’t understand about the D2XX and the Delta 2.
it is a bit confusing. I just thought that the Verano was built on the same platform.
I don’t understand the last sentence “do you need more expansion”.
I wasn’t arguing from my post.
Sorry for that, I thought you were just pressing my buttons. My bad!
No the Delta 2 is the old car and we should get a new Verano soon on the D2XX platform.
Anything with a Greek name is old and anything with the XX is a new platform
Again sorry for the snipe! .
It’s good scott3.
I see what you are saying about the platform now.
I was also a bit confused about the 5th gen Camaro as they were based on the Zeta platform (which I thought was in Australia), and yet it was made in Canada. So in that case I assume there were multiple factories based on the same platform.
Just when I think I get the platform thing…I don’t LOL
Thanks for the info
Yes Dave they can do multiple of platforms with multiple models in multiple plants.
That is why I think this car could work if they could create a global market for it.
Now that the D2XX is in production globally as an Opel and Buick it could be shared with Holden now as they will soon get a D2XX too.
This would provide the volume similar to the other named cars.
But it is insane to think you will sell 10K units of this car at $35K to 40K in America alone. There just are not that many sales and there is just not that much money in them at this price.
Cars like the Z/28 at the price they were had more margin so they did make some money. But even then it was marginal.
The lower the volume the higher the price needed to make money and equip the cars with the needed hardware to make them competitive.
This is why so many of GMs special edition cars and trucks are mostly paint and trim models.
I’ve never suggested that the price needs to be sub 30k. I said priced competitively. The AutoBahn GTI starts at 31k and can easily get to 36k. The Focus ST climbs into the 30’s when optioned comparatively (The 350HP AWD Focus RS starts at 36k and can option into 40k territory). I don’t see where selling 1500 Cruze Hatch’s with a 300HP 2.0L FWD @ 32k- 36k is a money losing endeavor. I think that a 1500 target is sellable. Comparatively, the 2014 Camaro ZL1 sales numbers were around 2400 from what I could find. So, 1500 high performance Cruze’s should be an achievable sales target. At a $4000 increase (28k to 32k) over the premium model, that’s 6 million dollars. Surely, GM can make this happen for less than that.
Here we go again. The key word you keep missing is starts. That $31K jumps to $35K to $37K pretty fast and easy. Few people buy a base model.
The ST really is not what I would call a performance car. It is a sporty car but lacks the power for now. Ford is hinting at adding power but how much more will it cost?
You not seeing where selling 1500 Cruze Hatch’s with a 300HP 2.0L FWD @ 32k- 36k is a money losing endeavor.
You just don’t drop an engine in as you have to spend a lot of money to make it all work. Just look at all the changed the GM Performance division did to the Cobalt SS to make it work. It was not just an engine swap.
Also you have crash testing, emissions and more. That all cost a lot of money and will not make it back at 1500 units at $29K.
You really need to sit down with a program manager and let them explain what all has to take place to do things like this. Sure you can short cut it but what good is a car that is done half ass.
Now do this with the Opel OPC and that 1500 cars turns into 10,000 cars globally and it becomes a profitable deal for all.
You have to work smarter not harder.
I apologize for not being clear. I thought I mentioned and explained my pricing.
Yes the Focus ST starts below 30k, but the Focus RS *STARTS* at 36K. A performance Cruse would slot in between. (I didn’t explicitly state that intent, but I thought it was implied.) The AutoBahn GTI *STARTS* at 31K, and that’s without other features that would be standard on a performance Cruze. So, priced competitively, 32k – 36k seemed reasonable.
I do understand that a lot is involved and that it’s not just plug and play. A lot of testing is required to ensure that everything is sorted out and you’re not releasing a recall monster into the wild. However, a current well optioned Cruze gets to 28k. So comparing a well optioned Cruze Premier A 28k to the *STARTING* price of a performance Cruze @ 32k is $4000. that is a conservative price differential. So, basing that conservative markup with a conservative take rate of 1500 per year yields a conservative $6M to work with. (1500 per year is less than the Cobalt and HHR sales figures you mentioned above.) So, $6M from only one years worth of sales to engineer the improvement should be achievable by conservative estimates. I strongly believe that there is pent-up demand for a performance Cruze or equivalent.
Look at how well the Focus ST has been selling and the Halo effect it has had.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/08/ford-profiles-surprisingly-affluent-focus-st-buyers/
12000 Focus ST’s sold in the US from summer 2012 through October 2013.
The VW Golf GTI’s sell around 1500 per MONTH in the US.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/10/volkswagen-golf-gti-sales-figures-usa.html
Surely, GM can sell 1500 performance Cruzes per year.
Now to your point of bringing an Opel OPC to the US, I would freakin’ LOVE that. Whether it would be a Buick or Chevy doesn’t matter to me. However, I haven’t heard any word that it is even on the horizon, so that seems to be as much of a pipe dream as a Cruze SS.
The ST is akin to just slapping SS emblems on a car for the most part, Not a lot of go there.
If you want to do this you need to do it right.
Just as in the past Chevy slapped on SS emblems on a 2006 Malibu that really meant little. Then they turned GMPD lose on the Cobalt and HHR and really worked them over to be a real performance machine on unfortunately older platforms that did not last? But with the pending bankruptcy we were lucky to get that.
Here is the problem. The Mini, STI and GTI are pretty much cult like cars that have a strong following. They are kind of looked at differently than most other econo box based models.
The Ford at this point is TBD on how it will be seen here.
While some here think oddly that the companies fear stolen sales from the Camaro and Mustang I see it quite reversed. The American market will go for the V8 at the same price much more than the 4 cylinder car at the high price. The simple fact that they are Chevy and Ford I see the Camaro and Mustang being favored.
The last GMPD SS models were great models but they just could not compete even with out the Camaro being sold at that time.
Now if GM can share the Opel parts with Chevy they could leverage this. I would think it could be done if they are willing to work together on it.
I am not against this car but the realities of volume and price are tricky and just saying just build it is not how you would get a business case approved.
Also we do not know what else GM has on the burner. Cadillac is said to be looking at a smaller car. It may be FWD or RWD. This could lead to a smaller performance Chevy as the Alpha Camaro has.
You really have to cover all the factors here as so many possibilities could happen.
Sorry but the simple minded just build it gets to me as I understand it is not that easy and so many just do not have the full idea of what it takes. You try to get them to expand and apply reality and they just want to post base econobox prices and say it can be done.
Also what else can be considered and make even more money for GM. While it is not cool some of the most boring cars in the world power the most profitable companies. Just look at Honda. They are very profitable and generally have few performance offerings. I hate to say it but that is the reality.
I hope you get what I am getting at. I have sat and talked to brand manager and platform managers over the years and they have showed me what they face. I just don’t make this stuff up. They are car guys too but they have to do what is best for the bottom line generally and that is not what their hearts always want.
Boiled down, your argument seems to be – “GM has enough money, why doesn’t it take a chance?”
As a part of that Cobalt community I can tell you the main complaint most guys had was FWD. No one is out there looking for FWD cars.
On one hand, yes the Cobalt SS with the LNF has a better time around Nurburgring than the Evo X. And yeah, most of us here think it would be cool if GM made it. But this doesn’t change the matter of profitability.
Rarely does a business do something because consumers will appreciate it; they do something because it makes money.
…I’ll bite my tongue when the Avista goes into production.
The GTI’s and Focus ST’s are selling well in the US (not to mention Mini’s and others), so there clearly is a market for it. According to sales figures, clearly a significant amount of people want FWD performance.
Boiled down, my argument is “there is a market demand, why doesn’t GM compete?”
Give me numbers just how many sales have they had of the SR ans RS?
Note too the cars you name are global cars unlike the Cruze is here. They are sold all over the world when the Chevy is only in some markets and mostly NA.,
I have a comment waiting moderation that has those figures. If I recall, the Focus ST sold 12000 units in the US from its introduction in summer 2012 thru October 2013. The GTI sells over 1500 a month in the US consistently. Hopefully, my comment will show up and explain them better with links to my source articles.
I found some numbers on the GTI
They did well with the car. 2009 they only had 7932 but last year did 23,669. They appear to average around 13K-15K a year. I do expect this encompasses all versions and variations. The R sold 4141 last year.
The Impreza 33,734 but they do not break out the WRX and STI models from the standard car on Good Car Bad Car. Ford ST was not even listed in sporty cars and the RS is new so it was not listed. .
Honda CRZ was the only sports listing for them and it did 3073. No SI yet here so no numbers there.
These Subaru and GTI have cult followings and are the two strongest players here. Both have a top model like the RS and STI that sell modestly wile they relay on the lower models for volume.
All others fall farther below or just don’t have break out numbers to show or they are too new to be represented.
I think the issue at Ford and Chevy is a performance FWD will not hurt the Carmaro and Mustang but the Opposite will happen that they RWD cars will take up more of the sales than the other way when based on similar pricing now that both have very good V6 and 4 cylinder offerings.
Like stated else where the big complaints on the Cobalt SS was the FWD. Same on the HHR SS. Seeing GM has no AWD in the Cruze yet that could be a problem. They could add it but will they get the numbers to pay for the development?
I just don’t see Chevy selling GTI numbers of $35K Cruze and I like the car.
Thanks for the reply. Those numbers and understanding that the Focus ST sells as many cars in the UK+Germany as the US also helps me to understand the sales limitations of a performance Cruze in the US. I do think GM could make some money on them, but not as much as they would like.
Still it’s frustrating that a global company as large as GM hasn’t figured out how to compete in the hot-hatch market (Globally or US). If they know how but have decided against it, that is even more frustrating.
No Frank the case is if they do this will they even make money?
Odds are good they will not sell 5,000 units in North America and there is no other market for this car since our version is not a global car like the RS, GTI and STI.
The Cobalt SS as popular as it was sold in very small numbers as I have already posted. The Sedan was in the hundreds not thousands. GM made nothing on these cars.
Now if they could globally leverage the sales out they could inch this up to 10,0000 units and make money.
I see you get the part about making money. That is key here. This money as boring as it may could offer a much greater return in some mundane model too.
I think GM could do this if they can come up with a plan to sell more of these in more than just North America. As it is now they could do this and the car would die like the Cobalt SS due to low volumes.
If GM had made money on the SS we would have had a Cruze SS on the last gen. But they failed to make money and so no SS. It is a shame as they could do a much better version right now.
If it were not for the overseas sales of the RS, STI, SI, and GTI they would not be sold here.
GM can always use more money but they have to pick and choose their programs carefully as to make sure there is not only a return but a max return on their investment.
Might note they were building SS models and going bankrupt but today they have no SS and are showing record profits even cutting out fleet sales and selling in lower volumes.
You may see an Avista but not a coupe. A coupe like sedan at best may happen and why? because the coupe would not carry the volume and a price to make money. A sedan has a better chance but another more profitable project could replace this too.
I know this is not what many want to hear but I am not going to lie and say oh ya this is what GM has to do and will do.
As some one stated here earlier well . GM has to build cars people will buy not just the ones they want.
Most of those in this thread have never owned a FWD Turbo nor would buy this one if GM bought it. Sure they say build built but in the end they never buy, This is why GM has to do what they target as the best projects to make money and sell in the best volumes.
I am a performance guy and I myself would want a SS version of every Chevy with real world performance. But being in the performance industry I understand why as the performance side of things is no where as popular as it once was. I just hope it holds on till I retire.
Being at this for nearly 25 years and seeing so many performance companies die I can tell you it is a market of decline. Kids today want faster video games and phones not faster cars.
GTI and other compact sport hatches tend to be epic failures in the US. Ford only seeks then here because they are already being designed for Europe.
Opel deserves, and will get an amazing hot hatch and this Astra should be sold via Buick or in place of Cruze hatch–quite honestly, Buick should not be competing with VW and Ford in the US market. GM should have simply restyled the Astra headlights for Chevrolet and given the bow tie two fantastic compact entries each aimed at a unique demo.
Cruze is the Pontiac Grand Am’s spiritual successor from a looks perspective. It isn’t the job of Cruze to build excitement in any manner except cosmetic.
Base price on the Focus ST is $24,700 not $36,000. Not sure where you’re getting that. If you’re looking at the Focus RS, you’re comparing to the wrong level. GM isn’t going to skip the mild performance level (like the Focus ST, Civic SI, etc) and go straight for the cutting edge level (Focus RS, Civic Type R). If they bother with this at all, they’ll probably only put out a ST competitor and stop there.
Dude the 2.0L turbo is not rated at 315ft-lbs of torque, maybe you’re confusing it with the 2.3L in the focus. The 2.0L turbo in the Malibu, which is just as light as the Cruze is rated at 250 flywheel HP and 259 flywheel torque ft-lbs of torque and I have driven the 2016 version and it doesn’t have any problems with traction.
My 2014 Cruze is rated at 138 FW HP and 148 ft-lbs of torque, that equates to about 107 whp and maybe 125 ft-lbs of torque. I have a tune from trifecta and with 93 octane I can get 152 whp and 176 ft-lbs of torque. At 259 ft-lbs of torque and a 16% loss through the drivetrain that would be about 217ft-lbs to the wheel. So there wouldn’t be a need for it to be AWD. As a matter of fact you can only get the 2.0L turbo Focus in FWD. It’s the 2.3L turbo that comes in AWD.
But the people at GM probably think the same way as you.
Chevrolet doesn’t need the LTG 2.0L DOHC-4v 4-cyl turbo with 252-275 horsepower to create a Cruze SS variant; they can simply take the LWC 1.6L DOHC-4v 4-cyl turbo used in the 2016 Buick Cascada with 200 horsepower as this will make the Cruze more fun to drive without sacrificing overall mileage or increase the price significantly as the LTG may require structural strengthening.
I think GM could do a purpose built performance model Cruze with a higher tune 1.4T or 1.5T with a 6 speed manual. If this car had around 175-200HP they could keep the cost down and give people a high performance car that could undercut a Focus ST and Fiesta ST without causing the performance buyer to look elsewhere.
These hot hatches bring young buyers into the dealer, they come for the Focus ST and leave with a SE. Two years later they move up.
The hot hatches don’t seem to be hurting Mustang sales with more sales than Camaro and Challenger combined.
No they don’t hurt those sales and I don’t think anyone claims that.
But just how many ST and RS sales do they have. 2K? 3K?
If it were not for the sales in Europe there would be no ST or RS here.
The cruze is not sold in Europe but it is sold in markets around the world. Know the facts.
Yet it is not the same Cruze as some are still selling the old version yet. Yes you have China and Korea but not much else.
No Europe, No Japan, Australia was last I saw still selling the old model.
Chevrolet could easily send a questionnaire out to current Chevy owners as they do with ads, asking customers what do they think of a performance Cruze, and if they would truly purchase one. Replies could be as simple as a “detach and mail” or provide a link.
Let’s do a theoretical marketing scenario.
Two million questionnaires, with a response rate of 20% positive or 400,000 customers. Figure 20% actually buying the car or 80,000 over the total production run. Those figures would rise or fall based on pricing, performance reliability, etc.
That is just it. To do this car right the average selling price would be $35K or more. There just is not a large market for selling a car like this in numbers that large.
Even Ford is optimistic they may move 10K in two years of the RS. I would wager they may sell half that at best at the price they are charging.
You have to keep in mind this is a entry level FWD compact car not a GT coupe. How many here would pay $40K for a Cruze?
Sure everyone says build it but so few would put their money where their mouths are and really buy one.
Again I invite you to revisit the Cobalt SS sales as proof. Even look up globally the SI and VW GTI RS sales and just see how many they sold here and globally.
As stated above, the VW GTI sold 23,669 units here during 2015 (up 36% from 2014), plus another 2000+ in Canada. As previously mentioned, the base GTI S (with the cloth plaid seats) can be had for about $27K, the SE a couple thousand more and the Autobahn trim can “if you check every box” get very pricey at about $36K. The thing is, many still opt for the S or SE. Many “GTI fans” prefer the base car in this case. VW also offers the Jetta GLI for those who prefer the sedan body, prices range from about $28K-32K for one of those. These models have decades of history and have “for better or worse” maintained their identity, the Cruze doesn’t have that on it’s side. The point is, there is a market for this type of vehicle.
Ultimately, GM has no need to offer a “Performance” Cruze in the mid to upper $30K range, it will not sell. But, if they tried to “walk” before “running” and offered a 250hp Cruze without overloading it with stuff and kept it to $28-29K? Could be a winner. I still doubt they will, but it could be done and make money.
You know what is interesting, I test drove a Camaro LS 2.0l Turbo with a manual trans a couple of weeks ago and the sticker price was $27K. That car hauls ass. From what I understand there are very few of the models made and they don’t. I don’t understand why. If I was in the market for a new car, I would have bought that damn Camaro.
I just don’t really understand why GM just don’t have the cajones to just built a proper hot hatch or the performance oriented Cruze sedan. Why would you still worry about eating into camaros sales as it does target a different audience here. Honestly here where I live (New Mexico) I’ve seen a bunch of Focus ST here. Besides, Honda is already coming up with the next gen Si and a more higher performance civic so why shouldn’t Chevy?
Because Honda will sell the SI globally.
Investigate how many SI Honda sells in North America only. Not many. Globally they add up. Now look at how many Cobalt SS GM sold in North America and how limited the Cruze market is globally. Most markets do not even have the new model yet.
The problem is not eating into the Camaro as it is not the same car as the Camaro. The problem is finding enough buyers of a Cruze SS to make a profit. Odds are slim they would sell many.
The first year you may see sales of 4500 and it will decline from there at best.
You could easily do this car and it would have little to no effect on the Camaro. Now on the contrary a Camaro 1LE V6 at the same price may do more damage to this car than the it would to it.
But Focus ST and RS is globally as well and lets see how much they sell.
That is just it they are global. If they sell here great if they sell in small numbers the global sales support them. That is how most of these others work.
Too many here think 10K and20K is a lot of cars but in this price segment companies want to see much higher volumes.
You can get away with 25K cars if you are charging $60K-80K for them.
Like it or not it is all about maximizing profits.
I mean honestly time will tell. I honestly see a lot more Focus ST running around now. I saw almost as much as the Civic SI here where I live.
Chrysler had no problem with this on the 200. A $2,000 add-on gets you a 295 horsepower V6. Another $2,000 gives you rear-bias AWD. Heck, SRT engineers oversaw its tuning… and it shows off the line. Just don’t expect it to corner like a WRX.
D2XX supports all this tech, Opel sells it all over in Europe. Bolt it on, tune it, sell it.
That’s interesting. How many did they sell? Were they profitable? Given that the 200 and Dart are getting phased out, it suggests that they aren’t. I’m open to any reliable data that suggests that they were turning a profit on the performance models.
It’s been suggested above that the D2XX is not designed for the 2.0 LTG. I would hope that is not the case. If it is, that seems really short sighted as it would limit the vehicles the platform can support. The Buick Envision is built on the D2XX platform and is reportedly (by GMAuthority) capable of the 2.0 LTG. I would hate to think that 4000lb vehicle being pulled along by the 1.5 LFV as the only option. All that to say, I’ll be disappointed if GM doesn’t figure out a way to get into the hot hatch market by 2019. Three years is MORE than generous.
We may need to see what happens. The D2XX CUV has a 2.0 so now is that just the CUV version or will it also work in the car?
And you are correct the Chryslers just were too little too late in a very competitive segment. They were not making money on the standard models let alone performance versions.
The 200 did so well they are killing it!
What a post tread I read all of them great discourse of views. I would love to see a SS version of the Cruze but, do believe that perhaps money could be better spend on making it a better car.
Sounds to me at this early stage by reading another article about the car that they need move around some opt packages so it can compete value wise to the Civic. And to me the non RS versions of the car leave much to be desired and suffer “TLUW” to little ugly wheel.
How does 153HP Cruze stack up to the 174HP Honda Civic in the real world? Could the engine be enhanced with a mild hybrid with a bend toward performance or perhaps be replaced with the 1.6 as others have said.
I would be happy if the upgraded Cruze came with an upgraded interior like a mini and have a Diesel hatchback and a handing package.
Do it! Do it now!
Given the amount of comments, I can see there is definitely a market that GM has not properly served yet.
Dale post unfortunately do not represent cars sold.
If one person here would actually buy one of these cars at $35K I would be shocked.
Talk is cheap cars like this are not for the company or consumer.
Just as everyone says we need more coupes but nearly all coupe sales aside the Camaro and Mustang are stagnate at best.
Wagons many cry for car based wagons yet how many really sell in this CUV market? Few.
The internet is the worst place to rationalize a auto program as so few understand the cost, the needed profits and the true call in the market for some models. They miss the big picture.
My heard say build it but my head also tells me it is not as easy as some think it is.
It is about risk and reward. And while the risk look low among a group of car enthusiast the true is we do not represent the majority anymore.
Scott3,
If they build it right, people will come. Do you think VW regrets building the GTI or Golf R? GM needs to create their own legend in this market for marketing reasons and for sales of a model they can build on well into the future.
Dale this not a baseball field in a cornfield.
The did build the Cobalt SS right and too few came.
You appear to underestimate how much of a cult following the GTI has. Chevy could do a better car but few will cross shop.
The GTI sales were built over time and also VW plays to a fwd crowd while most Chevy performance people are rwd.
Just ask me how often I get mocked on my fwd SS. It while only a turbo 4 is faster than any stock big block SS I have owned but yet they tell me that is no SS.
I have lived the life of a turbo SS and know the feedback. I have preached how fun they are to drive but seen the ya right stares back.
Contary to most here I own and drive the type Chevy discussed here. The truth is it is a tough segment and even tougher for an America company.
The American buyers are sport compact people and sport compact people are not American car buyers.
I want a car like this but know first hand the chalk ages and can tell you this is no sure bet.
The turbo SS cars were some of the best fwd performance cars of their time yet so few cared and still don’t care.
You keep talking about the past, yet GM is building even better vehicles lately. I think GM should use the same driveline from the upcoming GMC Acadia All-Terrain/Focus RS (GNK or something) and do a proper WRX like car in a Cruze Hatchback size. Give it 200-300 HP.
This is what the market wants and would actually buy.
I’m sure you would be interested as well scott3.
If GM only builds to win, they would do that or maybe a new Regal AWD could fit that market. (hopefully not too expensive)
You cannot keep talking about GM won’t do a car they don’t think will sell well when they have the Chevy SS, that thing is a rolling waste of money… no one is buying them, on the other side I have seen countless Focus ST’s, Fiesta ST’s, SRT-4’s, Cobalt SS’s, HHR SS’s, All front wheel drive cars, if people want RWD they will buy RWD, if people want AWD they will buy AWD. Your argument that car will not sell well, or hurt other sales is invalid based on that alone. And you say that these cars are not real performance? They are called tuner cars for a reason, so people can tune them the way they want them, I bet you have never even worked on your own car, to try to make it better. So quit your belly aching about no one will buy it. I would buy it in a heart beat if I had the money, I need a four door hatch, and the only sporty one in my price range is the Focus ST, if there was a Cruze SS I would buy that instead because I like Chevy more. No I will not buy a GTI as fixing it when it breaks down would cost me an arm and a leg, and no I will not buy Subaru as it would cost me an arm and a leg to just buy. All I want in my new Daddy Track car are the racing seats which I can do that in my Focus ST. I was looking at the Regal GS but I don’t want to buy a luxury car, I just want something fun that I can track, and experiment with. But I also want something that I can be a Dad in. So don’t tell me 2500 won’t sell. the reason the Cobalt and HHR SS versions didn’t sell well was because at the time, the interior in these cars were all uncomfortable and clunky. They were not good cars, people drive them today because it is a different time than it was back then. There is a racing mentality that has taken over America. There would not be this much discussion on this post if it didn’t get people excited… I would never in my life buy a Camaro over a hot hatch, just because I want to see the look on the other guys face when I blow by him in a Daddy car… And quit acting like you know everything and being a bully.
Scott3 while not owning one myself.I heard that these cars were mini slaying in their time and I have no reason to believe otherwise having said that ignorance is bliss and sorry to say that I see Chevy just stick with Camaro when it comes to affordable performance.
I can see a perhaps a 200 hp version or even an Eco version but, I doubt an SS is in the cards. I remember from working at a dealership years ago that when a new model comes out they know already how it’s going to sell and even down to the color and options. The LT Cruze is going to be the one with the biggest take rate.
I disagree that a Cruze SS would be a direct competitor of the WRX, GTI, RS. In 2010 I sold my 2002 Audi TT and purchased a 2010 Cobalt SS Turbo and paid about 20K out the door for it brand new and fully loaded. As soon as I got behind the wheel of the Cobalt, I immediately understood that it was the interior quality that separated it from the competition. You were paying for the Turbocharged engine and the 260 HP. The dash, door panels, cup holders, and pretty much everything else interior wise, was made of cheap black plastic, WHICH WAS FINE. I’m absolutely ok with having a fast, fun car without the stitched swede interior of the GTI or the Intelligent Drive System of the STI. The Cobalt’s true competition was the Neon SRT-4, Caliber SRT-4, HHR SS and Saturn Redline because they sacrificed interior quality for speed. I personally feel like the market is absolutely begging for a new car in this segment. Think about it, the current lineup of affordable sports cars is well outside the price range of most buyers in their late teens, early 20’s. If Chevy offered the Cruze SS with comparable HP (260-300) and stuck with the same cheap interior formula, not only would it be the ONLY car in the segment, it would force the VW’s, Subaru’s, Mitsubishi’s and Fords of the world to push the envelope and give the customer more for their 35-40K price tag. Beyond that, it might actually spawn a whole new generation of affordable sports cars in the 20-25k price range that I think everyone is dying to get back. The Cruze SS, Sonic SS, Dart SRT-4 are all vehicles that people have been asking for since day 1. Chevy has an opportunity to be first to market in a segment that’s been dry for years and I sincerely hope they decide to seize that opportunity.