General Motors Is At A Loss Without Pontiac: Opinion Desk
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Before you head to the comments section to state how the government put Pontiac on the chopping block in order to bailout the automaker, we’ll save you the keyboard strokes. Yes, that is true, and General Motors was not entirely responsible for the death of the brand.
But, of the brands axed or sold off from the GM portfolio, Pontiac has been a sour spot with die-hard fans for some time, followed closely behind by Hummer.
This topic has been explored before, but we think Pontiac would have made Chevrolet, Buick, GMC and Cadillac concise on what their target market is, without an overlapping of ideals. Why? It mostly involves Chevrolet, and their inability to cover certain performance niches. Chevrolet will always be the bread and butter at the table, but Pontiac could have added the special seasoning to the portfolio with a performance oriented onslaught of product.
Currently, Chevrolet offers the Camaro, Corvette and SS sedan to uphold its performance credentials. But where are the sport compacts? Or, a hot hatch? An affordable performance two-seater convertible? These niches are open gaps in the Chevrolet lineup.
Mark Reuss, GM product chief, has gone on the record stating it’s difficult to turn a profit on these niche products because, once everyone has purchased one, the market dries up. But, GM is also quite good at hitting refresh often on their performance products. Looking at the Scion FR-S in particular, sales have dropped immensely. But, where is the incentive to draw in more buyers if the car has seen nothing but an appearance package since it graced the market?
That’s where a newly-born Pontiac could have shined. Affordable, value-packed performance vehicles. The driver’s choice. Someone who cares about more than getting from A to B. Someone who understands the Google car doesn’t bridge connections at petrol pumps, or ignite the soul. Constant special editions, and added features, even the slightest update to create a “gotta have it” sensation.
Leaving Chevrolet as the breadwinner would have allowed for a renewed focus on great passenger cars, with the Camaro and Corvette sticking around respectfully because, well, there will always be Chevy guys and gals.
And it would keep Buick focused, too. Instead of erasing its “affordable luxury” mantra with a (rumored) new, hardcore Buick Grand National or GNX, the Pontiac Firebird and Trans Am would have that covered.
And this formula has already been proven with Dodge. As FCA consolidated SRT back into the Dodge brand, the company has focused on performance. That’s it, despite the Dart mixing up the strategy (even though an SRT4 variant is supposedly on the way), the recipe has been quite successful as Chargers and Challengers continue to leave dealer lots. And it leaves a hole for past Pontiac customers to flock to Dodge, with no market knowledge of the Chevrolet SS sedan.
We will admit the argument we’re laying out becomes less intense with the introduction of a turbocharged four-cylinder option in the 2016 Chevrolet Camaro, however. Since Al Oppenheiser, chief Camaro engineering, is certain the turbo-four option will draw in the old Cobalt SS crowd. But, the culture always clamors for the next sport compact or hot hatch. Just look at the Focus ST’s success.
You may disagree, and that’s fine. This is coming from the opinion desk after all. But, Pontiac would have clearly defined the boundaries of each GM division, while covering market niches that much more precisely.
And there’s a lot of brand equity in the red arrowhead that sits forever stillborn.
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I agree whole heartedly. The Pontiac line had features that Chevrolet failed to such as heads up display. It’s getting time to consider retiring my 40th anniversary GTP and my ideal replacement is a g8 with 5.3 liter v8 but the 2009 model (last year made) people are still paying $20k+ for low mile cars making it unrealistic for people like me that want a fair and realistic price for a fun yet slightly fuel efficient daily driver. I need a family friendly car, grocery getter, I expect 25mpg+ on the highway, front wheel drive because who wants to drive a rwd car on ice and snow, I need reliability, I want something just sporty enough that it’s fun to drive and will not get bored of, and I need it all in one vehicle and that doesn’t scream “mr car insurance guy, please rape me” like a camaro or corvette would. Enter the G6, G8, and Grand Prix/GTP lines. My insurance driving a Grand Prix with supercharged 3.8l v6 doesn’t cost me one more cent per month than its non-supercharged variant. Meanwhile if the same drivetrain were transplanted into a camaro you could expect premiums to go up 25%-50%
Where are the affordable sporty mid-size sedans, GM!?!?
I was a diehard Pontiac customer. With them no longer being an option,the car searches have left me cold. I have owned everything from a Chevrolet to a KIA. All leaving diappointed and looking for something else,something more. I’ll continue to search,hopeful that one day I’ll find that spark of excitment again with GM. If not, Nissan, here I come!
I reccomend get a used SS, G8/G8GT/G8GXP, or a CTS. 1st gen CTS V had a 6.2 N/A.
I mean 5.7 N/A.
I always owned pontiacs firebirds trans am. Not a better looking car on the road We need to get them back. The only cars that are out there now all look alike and are mostly ugly. We need to have a little more diversity the only ones that are different are the vets volkswagens and jeeps really sad to see what the cars have come too compared to years ago when there were so many beautiful cars on the road
I don’t even drive any more gm cars because pontiac was the best one out of all gm cars
@Ernie: I still drive a GM vehicle, and it’s an ’84 Pontiac Trans Am. I will own no other GM vehicle but a Pontiac. The Great Recession is long over, and GM is financially stable enough to revive Pontiac. Unless GM revives Pontiac, my next new vehicle will NOT be a GM vehicle. Pontiac was the #3 brand at GM, and the #1 vehicle brand in Canada. It has a large, loyal following. I think a revived Pontiac brand would be viable. GM should move on it.
There are already too many brands in the market and bringing back Pontiac- basically a rebadged Chevy with different grille and taillight treatments to differentiate it, is just going to be a money loser. This is just nostalgia, and that won’t sell after the first few months. Pontiac and Olds were just brands keyed to status- Impalas with nicer trim. That doesn’t cut it in today’s world.
@Ralph: If there are “too many brands,” how is it that Tesla was able to enter the market just a few years ago? How is it that DeLorean is apparently going to be revived? Also, if Pontiac was “basically a rebadged Chevy with different grille and taillight treatments…”, can’t the same be said for GMC? Olds may have been keyed to status, but I don’t think Pontiac was. Olds was an upscale brand; Pontiac wasn’t. Pontiac was GM’s performance brand. Yes, Pontiac was a little upscale of Chevy, but it wasn’t a brand keyed to “status”; Olds and Buick were. If Tesla can cut it in today’s world, and if those investors bringing DeLorean back think DeLorean can, I think there’s room for Pontiac. Pontiac was dozens of times bigger than Tesla is, or DeLorean ever was. It’s ironic that people on this thread would naysay bringing Pontiac back. This is a Pontiac thread that goes back years, and it’s still going. This thread is an indication of Pontiac’s continuing staying-power in its fans’ memory, and it’s not the only thread advocating Pontiac’s return.
“how is it that Tesla was able to enter the market just a few years ago?”
The Tesla represents a completely different approach to the automobile market. It is not remotely comparable to anything else out there.
“How is it that DeLorean is apparently going to be revived?”
Only through a small piece of legislation that allows low volume specialty cars to be built. This is not the resurrection of a brand with a nationwide dealer network. The car is a novelty- a toy.
“Also, if Pontiac was “basically a rebadged Chevy with different grille and taillight treatments…”, can’t the same be said for GMC.”
Of course.
For decades, GM relied on building a series of Small, Medium, and Large platforms, none of them unique to Chevy, Pontiac, Olds or Buick. As Brock Yates pointed out, this conformed to a status totem one climbed through life: you started out in a Chevy, “moved up” to a Pontiac, then Buick, then Olds, until finally, if you made senior management, you climbed to the top of the status pole and owned a Cadillac. With the exception of Cadillac, none of these vehicles in any segment were unique. This is called “badge engineering” in the trade. This kind of marketing no longer works with the choices we have today thanks to imports. When we had a domestically captured market, this is what we were fed, and we ate it.
There was/is nothing intrinsically special about Pontiac except nostalgia. And that won’t sell to young people. Nor did Pontiac have a monopoly on performance: almost every Chevy from the Nova on up could be specced as an “SS” model, and the GTO just sold along branded clones: Chevelle, 442, Gran Sport. So you had four models with different trim levels competing AGAINST each other for the same customer. No one does business like that today. It’s not plausible, profitable or sustainable.
As it is, there are thoughts of killing Buick domestically. Forget it guys, just keep your old Goats and TransAms running, and savor the past. Pontiac can never come back.
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/07/general-motors-is-at-a-loss-without-pontiac-opinion-desk/#ixzz4Ch8o2xLP
@Ralph:
As the old saying goes: Never say never. People get on threads like this and talk as though Pontiac the car was in every respect the same as Pontiac the human Ottawa chief. Yes, dead humans can never return, but dead car-brands CAN. Never say never. People need to remember that Pontiac (the car brand) was shut-down some six years ago, but folks are STILL talking about reviving the brand. This thread is but one of many. Google, “Bring Back Pontiac,” and see what you find. Sure, not all the threads/sites are active, but the key is to NOTICE HOW MANY SITES/THREADS there are. And, some–like the one we’re on right now–are STILL active. Pontiac CAN return, and I encourage my fellow Pontiac fans to KEEP PUSHING for its return. Don’t give up; never say die.
It would be better to enrich the GS, V, and SS sub brands.
I loved my Pontiacs. Red dash lights, heads-up display, etc.; what’s not to like? Talked to a GM exec. a couple of months ago, and told him why I liked Pontiac (especially the red dash lights), and he said that market research indicated that the majority of people don’t like red dash lights. Really? People I have talked to loved them. What do you all think?
And then there is the HUD. Loved it. Miss it. After I traded my ’97 Grand Prix GT (nine years and about 190,000 miles), the only Pontiac I currently have is a ’66 GTO coupe. Unforturnately, it is 1/18 scale diecast.
GM pretty much leaves me flat now. I look at their lineup, and with the exception of Corvette and Camaro (maybe the SS although I have rarely seen them), I can’t remember why I am checking them out. Oh yes, perhaps to see if they have gotten off their butts and produced something else more interesting like the Volt and Bolt (but with some flair please). Unless you like to do offroading, GM does not produce too much in the way of heart pounding excitement.
Time to wake up Gramma, wait for her to find her teeth, and take her to the pharmacy for her once a month refills. GM fits her needs perfectly.
“Unless you like to do offroading, GM does not produce too much in the way of heart pounding excitement.”
Really? The V Series Cadillacs don’t get it done for you? The SS Impala? OK….
I don’t know why people are so nostalgic for these cars- especially since a modern Honda Accord can run circles around anything built in the ’60s.
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/07/general-motors-is-at-a-loss-without-pontiac-opinion-desk/#ixzz4ChCEIVT5
There is no SS Impala.
Whatevs…..
http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html
I know the car…you are just critiquing everyone else’s post.
It’s not that serious.
@Ralph: Get real. You’re telling us a Honda Accord can “run circles” around a ’69 Pontiac GTO, especially one with the Ram Air IV engine? Put down the crack pipe, please.
I don’t use crack.
Please see this original road test of a ’68 Ram Air GTO:
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/AardvarkPublisherAttachments/9990398695361/1968-02_HR_Ram_Air_GTO_Test_1-4.pdf
And here are the specs for a V-6 Accord Coupe:
http://www.caranddriver.com/honda/accord
The Honda smokes the GTO. Technology is a wonderful thing, especially after nearly 50 years. (sic)
There are cars today- like Vipers and Corvettes, available on the showroom floor, that would have been competitive in an NHRA sanctioned pro-stock class when I was a kid. And unlike those old Dodge Coronets, they have heaters. Also A/C, leather, infotainment systems…
Amazing, huh? I don’t smoke crack, and I don’t live in the past.
@Ralph:
Several points:
1. The best engine available for the ’68 GTO was the 400 H.O. It just so happens that one of the five GTOs I’ve owned was indeed a ’68 GTO with the 400 H.O. engine. I’m not sure if that was the engine the test-car in the article had. The article said the engine had Ram Air, but was the engine a 400 H.O.? I’m not sure.
2. The ’69 GTO was the first GTO that could be ordered with the Ram Air IV engine, as that engine debuted in ’69. The Ram Air IV was probably one second faster than the 400 H.O., but of course that would depend on the driver, what tires are being used, which transmission the car is equipped with, etc.
3. If you’re so enamored of the ’16 Accord, go get one and knock your socks off. I’ll take a ’69 Ram Air IV GTO instead of the Accord, any day. And, if we both tried to sell our cars, guess who would get a LOT more money? It’s all about VALUE, Ralph. You STILL can’t really compare a ’69 Ram Air IV GTO to ANY Accord. This goes beyond utilitarianism. To say that a top-of-the line Accord is comparable to a ’69 Ram Air IV GTO, is like saying that two Big Macs are just as filling as a Spencer steak.
The accord is a “better car”, but you do not get the excitement or cool factor to go with your “performance”. the GTO was crazy fast in it’s day, the Accord is not. I myself would (IRL) take a CTS-V wagon or G8 GXP supercharged, so I can drive circles around both cars, while getting the comfort and practicality of the accord. Then again, any decent classic is cool as a second car.
Yes, thank you. I forgot about the Cadillac, but I did mention the SS. And if you read my quote again that you quoted, there are the words “too much”. Whether today’s cars can run circles around those of our memories is irrelevant. It was much more than just speed. It was a life style.
Bring back Pontiac ?? I think they should bring back Olds . Olds had the best selling models in speed, and style in it’s past 100 years. What was better than the 60’s Starfire , Cutlass , Ciera, 88s. Through the years my wife and myself have owned 11 Oldsmobile’s ,now we are driving Buicks but that may change if they are going to be imported ..I will only buy AMERICAN made. . Pontiac and Olds were always better sellers than Buick attracting younger buyers for there style and speed . Buick will never fill the gap that Pontiac or Olds would have , it was a big mistake to kill them. If Oldsmobile was brought I would have 2 in our garage . BRING BACK OLDSMOBILE
@Tom G: As I responded to another Olds fan on this thread, I respect Olds. I have two relatives who used to own Oldses. However, it would appear that GM is not likely to return both Pontiac AND Olds. On another thread on this site, I had been battling anti-Pontiac naysayers for some 4 1/2 years, and they think there’s not enough room in the market for even Pontiac.
“I had been battling anti-Pontiac naysayers for some 4 1/2 years, and they think there’s not enough room in the market for even Pontiac.”
And the naysayers are right- the entire industry will shrink its brand footprint over the next few years, most people in the industry are painfully aware of this. There is no point in bringing back a brand that’s going to go head to head against other vehicles in it’s segment with nothing to offer than nostalgia for the brand. It’s bad enough Chrysler simply dumped the 200 and the Dart. Those cars weren’t going to keep Honda up at night, and it costs over a billion dollars just to launch a model today. The economics aren’t there. Pontiac and Olds are as dead as Studebaker and Packard.
Time to move on.
@Ralph: You could say there’s at least some nostalgia for ANY vehicle brand that has departed. What I’m suggesting is that Pontiac has a fanbase that’s sufficiently large that GM should revive it. No one is suggesting that GM should revive Pontiac only because there’s nostalgia for the brand; I’m suggesting that Pontiac’s large fanbase makes the brand worth reviving. “The economics aren’t there”? Funny that Tesla appeared out of nowhere just a few years ago, and now it looks as though the DeLorean brand will be revived shortly. Neither Tesla nor DeLorean has a fanbase as large as Pontiac does. Yes, Pontiac is dead; it’s been dead since 2010. I’m suggesting that GM should revive it. This thread is one indication that there’s demand for the brand’s return, and there are other threads and websites like it.
You’re repeating the same points. Tesla isn’t just a “brand,” it’s a totally new car product that has no competition, and no costly dealer network to build out. It’s not comparable to just putting out another bunch of sedans and coupes that will amount to nothing more than rebadged versions of existing models, which is all Pontiacs were when they were actually in production. The same cars, just with different grille and tail light treatments, spread across four divisions, The car market isn’t LIKE that anymore.
As it is, Tesla loses money on every car, and Ford sells more F-150s in two weeks than Tesla sells in a year.
As for the DeLorean, it’s not being “revived” in the sense that it’s a mass brand. The law that was passed that permitted it’s production is limited to a few thousand cars a year. That’s why brands like Morgan and a few oddball British imports are coming back. GM is not going to invest upwards of a billion dollars for that. Again: the DeLorean is a toy. A novelty product.
This thread is in no way indicative of consumer demand. You’re going to see some massive consolidation in the industry in the coming years, so be prepared to say goodbye to some other brands. You can’t keep stuffing the market with product with thinner and thinner margins. Something has got to give, and with both Buick and Lincoln being considered for the axe, these legacy brands have no chance in hell of being revived.
Don’t waste your time with Moanalua. He will not listen to reason or entertain any rational thought that is counter to his confirmation bias. It’s best to ignore him. You can look at the Pontiac forum and see where he repeated many of the same things here over three years ago. I had debated with him under the name [email protected]_E and despite my best efforts, he remained entrenched in his own opinions.
Oh, please.
First, I’m not the person you’re talking about, and second, when it comes to “rational thought,” you’re simply ignoring the empirical evidence. You forget the raw cost of launching a brand, like it was no big deal. You think Tesla proves something? How about Fisker? Did THAT prove something? Scion has also been scrapped and the other brands I mentioned may not be far behind. Ford knows it just can’t sell a rebadged Fusion, stuff it with leather seats and call it a “Lincoln.” The public GETS THIS, which is why they don’t sell, and the old method of selling near identical “step up” brands as status totems doesn’t work anymore. Keep denying this to yourselves, right?
Secondly, the only models getting any real traction in this market are SUVs. Sedans are dead by comparison. So when you say “bring back Pontiac” what are you going to bring it back as? A re-imagined Bonneville or Tempest? You’re kidding yourselves. If they produce a Firebird, it will only cannibalize Camaro sales, and that’s what you guys don’t get about the car business today. You can’t have brands WITHIN a company competing for the same customer. The whole market has changed, and that’s why Olds and Pontiac HAD to die. They brought nothing to the market the customer lusted after.
Suggest you guys listen to John McElroy’s Autoline podcasts so you understand what’s going on in the industry. This is a tough, brutal, competitive business that has no room for sympathies. Just the bottom line.
Ralph, please reread my comment. I’m on your side. I agree that Pontiac is not worth reviving. It was fatally shot with the move to corporate engines and was left on life support after the cancellation of the Fiero.
I was speaking of Moanalua. HE hasn’t listened to reason on this site (and others) for over four years.
Oh. Skipped an important word:
Don’t waste your time WITH Moanalua.
In the words of Gilda Radner:
“Never mind………”
@Ralph: I’ve tried several times to respond to Drum_Junkie’s post, but to no avail. Allow me to respond to you. If you wish to take Drum_Junkie’s advice to ignore me, that’s up to you. Yes, I heard that Scion will be discontinued next year, and that SUVs are outpacing cars. If Pontiac were to be revived, couldn’t its Torrent SUV be revived as well? Also, there seem to be a lot of buyers lusting after the Firebird Trans Am; there are several threads/websites clamoring for it. Finally, GMC seems to be defying your claim about “identical ‘step up’ brands as status totems” not working anymore. GMC is virtually an “identical step-up brand” to Chevy.
“If Pontiac were to be revived, couldn’t its Torrent SUV be revived as well?”
Great idea! Let’s bring back a Pontiac SUV which will be nothing more than a rebadged Buick Enclave which is nothing more than a rebadged Chevy Traverse.
What is the POINT of doing this? And do you folks realize what the cost of setting up a national franchise network is? Setting up distribution and marketing? There’s a real world out there.
By the way if you want to buy a cloned TransAm, this company will build you one:
http://www.transamworldwide.com/
@Ralph: Thank-you for having the courtesy to respond. The “point of doing this” is the same one that has GMC building rebadged Chevy trucks. There are consumers out there who want Pontiac back. Pontiac fans as consumers have the right to demand that Pontiac return, and that includes all the folks on this thread who have spoken-out for the brand’s return. Obviously, GM isn’t required to oblige, but consumers still have the right to demand that Pontiac return.
I’m not interested in a cloned Trans Am, as a cloned Trans Am isn’t a Pontiac. What I’m interested in is seeing Pontiac return. If GM would oblige, I wouldn’t even care if Pontiac revives the Trans Am. To me, what’s of primary importance is that Pontiac return. Once that happens, Pontiac can offer any models it wants. I would be very grateful to GM if it revives Pontiac.
Why would they take down GMC? It would take years to get enough revenue from Chevys to make up for cancleing orders, taking down signs, firing workers, and changeing plants. There are people who are exteremely loyal to GMC, and would buy a used one instead of a new chevy. The special tailgate and denali makes GMC different. Also, ever since the late 80s, firebirds and trans ams were just cloned camaros and Z/28s. The camaro came first, and is the only one still around, so if one clones the other (as long as firebird is dead), the firebird will clone camaro. It is too expensive to bring back pontiac (or olds or hummer, though saturn would be profitable), as much as I would love for it to happen.
The only entity that killed Pontiac was Chevrolet. Hogging all of the research and development money since the 1920s, all the other brands were expendable and constantly suffocated. in truth, GM could do without Chevy cars,making just trucks. But no one at GM would ever have the balls to be that bold. Of course, Pontiac should return, and GM would see renewed profits. The press coverage alone would be enormous! From now until my last breath, or until Pontiac returns, whichever comes first, I will go on hating Chevy with all of my heart and every fiber of my body! You can count n it.
@Arrowheadblood: Thank-you for getting on this thread and going to bat for Pontiac. Indeed, Chevy was similar to Pontiac, but a bit downscale of Pontiac. You surely have taken note of all the naysayers on this thread. I’d been going head-to-head against some of them for years. The fact of the matter is that Pontiac has a large fanbase throughout the US and Canada. There are quite a few websites/threads featuring consumers–such as you and I–who are demanding that the brand return. I look forward to being your ally on this thread as we and others continue to demand that Pontiac return. Thank-you again for posting and supporting Pontiac.
It feels like you have only written like 4 comments and all of your other hundreds of comments are just the good ol` copy and paste
Gm did make a mistake (again) , the remaining divisions should have been CHEVY- OLDS & CAD , so they kept Buick division , Buick never had the following and sales numbers as Olds or Pont did . Did Pont or Buick models ever have the sales that Olds had with the Cutlass ( best selling model in the early 80’s ) and Ciera had and they would have had the advantage of bringing back the Cutlass 442 . and for the GMC division , it is a duplicate of Chevy suv & truck models ???WHY . If Olds was still around I still know a lot of people that would own one , including myself
You’re too close to the subject. You’re a GM fan instead of looking at the big picture.
1. GM had the task of trying to bring younger buyers to Oldsmobile and Buick. Anyone in marketing 101 would tell you lose OLDsmobile if that was your plan.
2. You’re saying Pontiac sold better so why go with Buick? That’s like saying cheeseburgers sell better than veggie burgers and so why offer veggie burgers in a restaurant with vegan choices. GM made a choice between a performance brand and a luxury-ish brand. In these greener days they smartly went for luxury.
3. My Mom used to drive and Olds station wagon. I’d have never been caught dead in one. If GM offered the Oldsmobile Encore I probably wouldn’t have bought once. Since I had no real association with Buick I was able to. So brands can be tricky that way. If LESS people owned Buicks then less younger people would be caught dead in one… if you follow me.
Except it isn’t “greener” – Gas rested between $2/gallon and $2.50. If people are buying cars, they’re buying larger cars. That’s why the mid-size car race is so cut-throat today.
Meanwhile the luxury brands are struggling to sell passenger cars, and GM now has no performance brand to offer luxury-deleted versions (which is what the 2nd Gen G6, and G8, would have done for the ATS and CTS).
Keep in mind it was the Obama Auto Task Force that compelled GM to drop either Buick or Pontiac. GM wasn’t wrong, the illegal influence of the President was wrong here. GM can fix it, but they would have to do cap ex on bringing back Pontiac, and Barra doesn’t want to anger Obama-Clinton, predicting a Clinton continuation of the Obama Administration.
lol Everything is Obama’s fault. Right.
And so if the Obama Task Force asked GM to eliminate Pontiac OR Buick — why is it Obama’s fault GM chose Buick?
“why is it Obama’s fault GM chose Buick?”
Because it was a false premise. Keeping Pontiac alive as a G8-only brand would have cost little to nothing. There was no cost recovery or asset recovery from killing Pontiac vs keeping it alive as a captive import program of Holden.
All the costs that were spent on the Chevy SS, could have kept the G8 in stores at Buick-GMC dealerships. Hence, PATF had no grounds to demand GM shutter one brand or the other.
“lol Everything is Obama’s fault. Right.”
Sarcasm doesn’t work so well when it’s misplaced. GM would have exited Chapter 11 bankruptcy with or without a federal bailout. The only people “saved” were union pensioners – a large voting block for the DNC.
Americans need to understand that the world no longer revolves around the US. The ONLY reason Buick was saved is China. Period. This was purely a business decision, not a political one. Whether Americans buy it or not is nearly irrelevant. By 2020, every Buick will be made in China except one.
Ignorance isn’t bliss…
Wrong. Bob Lutz confirmed it was a decision mandated by politicians. That makes it political.
Holden-Pontiac-OpelRWD was something Lutz wanted to keep alive because he realized that autonomous vehicles will take 25 years to obsolete performance driving, and that gas could easily dip below $2/gallon. He was right on both counts – and all the President’s men were wrong.
Now Ford is racing to develop a new RWD sedan platform, FCA already has one, and Toyota is working to make a cheaper BMW Z with a backseat.
When you tie the hands of American companies behind their back, it’s pretty easy to fall behind.
@Christopher Price: Hello, my friend and fellow Pontiac supporter. Nice to respond to one of your posts again. So, it WAS Obama’s automotive task force that mandated Pontiac’s murder. Well, Obama is on his way out, and at this point I suspect that it will be Clinton who’ll replace him. Yes, she has committed to continuing Obama’s legacy, but would that necessarily include his automotive task force’s decision to murder Pontiac? Not necessarily. Besides, hasn’t GM fully repaid its federal loan? If that’s the case, then Clinton would have no say in the matter. GM could revive Pontiac, and there’d be nothing Clinton could do about it.
The problem is the same administrators and same infrastructure will be there. Obama isn’t leaving Washington. Most of the Obama administration workers and regulators will be left in place under a Clinton administration.
Barra does not want to anger regulators, especially while NHTSA still has them under regulatory review.
Legally, GM could restart Pontiac tomorrow. The problem is Holden is now no longer making non-luxury RWD cars, and GM has committed to a green/electric car future.
Keep in mind, to many staffers in the Obama-Clinton machine, Pontiac represents the same stigma as Hummer – pollutive cars that are dinosaurs, lacking need for anything other than “fun” – which is irrelevant in their view.
Mounting a business case for Pontiac to return will only happen if it is crystal-clear that gas will stay at $2/gallon for the next decade, and if car buyers keep embracing larger/sportier cars. Cars like the Model 3 help make that case (affordable, sub-$30k RWD go-fast), but I don’t see it happening if Clinton wins the election.
@Christopher Price: Hello again, my friend. IF Clinton wins the election? At this point, I’m pretty sure she WILL. I’m not so sure that Clinton is as “green-oriented” as you suggest. Besides, she AND her administration can take a hike, as far as GM is concerned. As you said, GM could revive Pontiac tomorrow, if it wished. GM needs to take a clue from Fiat Chrysler, look at Dodge. GM needs something like Dodge, and Pontiac is the PERFECT fit. Dodge is now FCA’s performance brand, and Pontiac was GM’s performance brand for decades.
lol Everything is Obama’s fault. Right.
And so if the Obama Task Force asked GM to eliminate Pontiac OR Buick — why is it Obama’s fault GM chose Buick? Based on comments above isn’t GM ‘stupid’ for cutting Pontiac?
And last time I checked — didn’t we SAVE GM by bailing it out?
@John Hart: Thank-you for your post. For years, certain people have been saying that GM kept Buick only because it sold in China. Yet, Pontiac sold MUCH better than Buick right here in the US. In fact, Pontiac was #3 at GM, right behind GMC. Therefore, why couldn’t GM have kept Pontiac, selling them in the US and Canada (as was already happening), and then sell Buicks in China only? Why couldn’t Obama’s automotive task force have allowed that?
You know, I’ve been on plenty of car message boards, but few are as lame as this one. This an article from this very website:
“There were two primary reasons for GM’s decision to dispense with the brand.
1) Pontiac has been unprofitable during the last few years of its existence.
This put Pontiac in a fatal position given that GM was experiencing severe financial problems ahead of its bankruptcy in 2009.
2) Pontiac was selling rebadged Chevrolet vehicles often at a lower price than Chevrolet, thereby not only earning a loss for itself, but also undercutting the Chevrolet brand altogether.
Several GM employees exhibited a last-ditch effort to save the brand, but their efforts proved to be in vain
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/pontiac/why-did-gm-discontinue-pontiac/#ixzz4H1lIGbkJ
The article goes on to explain why Buick was kept.
Aside from that, what gives someone who never walked inside a boardroom the idea that they know how to run an auto company better than the ones who actually DO the job? Along with Pontiac, Hummer and Saab also had to go, and losing Saab was a bigger loss for the auto industry. Unlike Pontiac, it wasn’t a rebadged Chevy- they built a unique product that actually contributed something to the auto world. It was different. The Pontiac was another stamped steel brand.
All Pontiac represented was a failed business model. Four brands, all built on the same platform, with identical engines and transmissions, each with it’s own dealer network, each with it’s own marketing, and all competing with each other for the same customer.
Know what happens in the car business if you keep that up in the 21st century? You’re no longer IN the car business. OK?
As it is, Ford has it’s hands full keeping Lincoln alive, because all the wood paneling in the car still doesn’t fool the customer that they’re being asked to spend another $10,000 for what is a nothing more than a Ford Fusion. You can’t get away with this garbage anymore.
But of course, blame Obama (why not), and let’s attribute quotes to Bob Lutz he either never said, or was looney to even say them: the most experienced hands in the energy business can’t tell you where oil prices will be six months from now, and I doubt that Obama directed the disposition of these brands himself. Unless, of course, they hemorrhaging cash, for which he should be proclaimed a genius.
So, I’m going to unsubscribe myself from this place, because the fan boys are beating a dead horse, and if anything, consolidation is the order of the day, not expansion. Of course, accepting this requires acknowledging reality, and at least SOME base knowledge of the auto industry and what it costs to maintain a brand in this market.
Have at it boys. Pontiac is deader than Eisenhower.
Ralph. You’re really Obama, right?
Yeah. That’s gotta be it.
(Wrapping myself in confederate flag and going back to sleep.)
@John Hart: Thank-you for your post. Ralph made some good points, but what he doesn’t seem to get is that, as consumers, we Pontiac “fan boys” have every right to continue pushing for Pontiac’s return. Yes, Pontiac is “deader than Eisenhower,” as he put it. But–unlike Eisenhower–dead car brands CAN be revived. I’d like to encourage my fellow Pontiac “fan boys” to continue exercising their rights as consumers to demand that Pontiac return. This is consumer demand; nothing more, nothing less. And, it’s perfectly legitimate.
Why are you replying to me? My only point is that blaming Obama for GM woes is ludicrous.
Sites acting up again. Must reply to self to add additional thought —
— if GM, it’s fanboys, or whoever didn’t want any influence from any President they should have run a company not needing a bailout.
@John Hart: Not everyone on this thread is a GM fanboy. I, for one, am a Pontiac fanboy only. Even when Pontiac was around, I wasn’t a GM fanboy because–as a Pontiac musclecar enthusiast–I didn’t appreciate the competition from Chevy, Buick and Olds. (We’re talking about the early-’70s, when Olds was still around and had the 442, Chevy had the Chevelle SS, and Buick had the GS, or Gran Sport. They were all competitors to the Pontiac GTO, and I have owned five GTOs). When GM murdered Pontiac, I became even LESS of a GM fanboy.
@John Hart: OK, perhaps I should have addressed my reply to Ralph.
I still see sooooooooooooooo many Pontiac Grand Ams on the road 10+ years after Pontiac shut down….
Bring back the Pontiac!!
@Rhonda Starr: Indeed, the last-generation Grand Ams were Pontiac’s bestseller. (I’m talking from maybe the ’92 model, and on). If I’m not mistaken, even the previous-generation Grand Am–I THINK that one ran from ’84 to ’91–was a hot seller, too. I personally prefer the G6, which was basically the Grand Am’s replacement. I saw a G6 coupe coming-out from a Jack-In-The-Box drive-thru just a few days ago; VERY sleek. And it’s not just Pontiac’s bestselling models that continue on; so do Pontiac’s fans. Try Googling, “Bring Back Pontiac.” You wouldn’t believe how many websites/blogs/threads there are.
I say bring back Oldsmobile so we could have the 442’s , Cutlass’s, 88’s 98’s Bravada’s
@Tom G: I certainly respect Olds fans; I’m sure they cherish Olds as much as we Pontiac fans cherish Pontiac. However, it doesn’t seem likely that GM will revive both Pontiac AND Olds; it will probably be only one or the other, if any at all. You can go back over this thread and see how the Pontiac naysayers would like to see Pontiac remain dead. Could you imagine what they’d say about Olds? I’m not saying that Olds is necessarily inherently inferior to Pontiac, but Pontiac lasted some seven years longer than Olds, and almost certainly has a larger fanbase. And, just as the naysayers say Pontiac was too similar to Chevy, those same naysayers would probably say that Olds was too similar to Buick.
The Firebird would sell huge if it came back into production .Same with the Grand Am another popular car .Yet do not need to call it a Pontiac brand .Now for this driver hits the wall https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1022/1022_01.asp
Pontiac should come back because they’re so rare now. All Pontiac’s are either stolen or in used car dealerships. And we don’t see many used car dealerships anymore.
@Nate Gentry: Well, there are quite a few used-car dealerships in the state where I live, but I don’t want to see only used Pontiacs. As a consumer, I’d like to see GM revive Pontiac, and start manufacturing new Pontiacs again. Pontiac deserves better than to be an orphan brand; this is an outrage.
I agree
I would like to see the Firebird, the GTO, the G8 and the Solstice come back. Pontiac doesn’t need to have mini vans and SUVs. They just need a few real nice and we’ll made sports cars. Maybe, in order to attract the younger buyers, Pontiac could develop a WRX rally type car too.
@Dan: Thank-you for advocating Pontiac’s return. For the past month or more, Dodge has been airing performance-car TV ads. These are the kind of ads that Pontiac would be airing, if GM had revived Pontiac. Ever since Pontiac debuted the GTO in ’64, it’s been GM’s excitement/performance brand. Time for GM to revive Pontiac, and have Pontiac go after Dodge.
I miss the Pontiac brand. I’ve owned nothing but GM cars and trucks, four of them were Pontiacs. Two Sunbirds, a Grand Prix, and a G5, which I still own. I would love to see Pontiac turn.
@Dan: So would I, and there are FAR more who feel that way besides you and I. I’m talking not just about the US (and there are scads of us here), but in Canada as well, where Pontiac was the #1 vehicle brand, period. Not only have all the vehicles I’ve owned been GM vehicles; ALL of them have been PONTIACS, including the one I own now. This is the ninth Pontiac I’ve owned, and I’m STILL a satisfied customer. The only thing I’m not satisfied about is that GM murdered the brand. Dan, let’s you and I and all other Pontiac fans who are reading this, CONTINUE to push for Pontiac’s return. I refuse to leave the brand in the gutter, where GM crudely kicked it to.
I agree
@Nate Gentry: Thank-you for your pro-Pontiac response. I don’t know if this is your first post on this thread, but please join our movement to see Pontiac brought back. Even if all you did is post pro-Pontiac comments, that’s great. And the more, the merrier. Let’s have our voices heard: “Bring back Pontiac!”
@Nate Gentry: Sorry, I just noticed that you did post earlier comments. Thank-you for those, too!