Before you head to the comments section to state how the government put Pontiac on the chopping block in order to bailout the automaker, we’ll save you the keyboard strokes. Yes, that is true, and General Motors was not entirely responsible for the death of the brand.
But, of the brands axed or sold off from the GM portfolio, Pontiac has been a sour spot with die-hard fans for some time, followed closely behind by Hummer.
This topic has been explored before, but we think Pontiac would have made Chevrolet, Buick, GMC and Cadillac concise on what their target market is, without an overlapping of ideals. Why? It mostly involves Chevrolet, and their inability to cover certain performance niches. Chevrolet will always be the bread and butter at the table, but Pontiac could have added the special seasoning to the portfolio with a performance oriented onslaught of product.
Currently, Chevrolet offers the Camaro, Corvette and SS sedan to uphold its performance credentials. But where are the sport compacts? Or, a hot hatch? An affordable performance two-seater convertible? These niches are open gaps in the Chevrolet lineup.
Mark Reuss, GM product chief, has gone on the record stating it’s difficult to turn a profit on these niche products because, once everyone has purchased one, the market dries up. But, GM is also quite good at hitting refresh often on their performance products. Looking at the Scion FR-S in particular, sales have dropped immensely. But, where is the incentive to draw in more buyers if the car has seen nothing but an appearance package since it graced the market?
That’s where a newly-born Pontiac could have shined. Affordable, value-packed performance vehicles. The driver’s choice. Someone who cares about more than getting from A to B. Someone who understands the Google car doesn’t bridge connections at petrol pumps, or ignite the soul. Constant special editions, and added features, even the slightest update to create a “gotta have it” sensation.
Leaving Chevrolet as the breadwinner would have allowed for a renewed focus on great passenger cars, with the Camaro and Corvette sticking around respectfully because, well, there will always be Chevy guys and gals.
And it would keep Buick focused, too. Instead of erasing its “affordable luxury” mantra with a (rumored) new, hardcore Buick Grand National or GNX, the Pontiac Firebird and Trans Am would have that covered.
And this formula has already been proven with Dodge. As FCA consolidated SRT back into the Dodge brand, the company has focused on performance. That’s it, despite the Dart mixing up the strategy (even though an SRT4 variant is supposedly on the way), the recipe has been quite successful as Chargers and Challengers continue to leave dealer lots. And it leaves a hole for past Pontiac customers to flock to Dodge, with no market knowledge of the Chevrolet SS sedan.
We will admit the argument we’re laying out becomes less intense with the introduction of a turbocharged four-cylinder option in the 2016 Chevrolet Camaro, however. Since Al Oppenheiser, chief Camaro engineering, is certain the turbo-four option will draw in the old Cobalt SS crowd. But, the culture always clamors for the next sport compact or hot hatch. Just look at the Focus ST’s success.
You may disagree, and that’s fine. This is coming from the opinion desk after all. But, Pontiac would have clearly defined the boundaries of each GM division, while covering market niches that much more precisely.
And there’s a lot of brand equity in the red arrowhead that sits forever stillborn.
Comments
I do not know why GM can’t simply re badge some Holdens, re name them with either new or old Pontiac name’s and bring the entire division back. They could use a few of the existing Chevy platforms and designs for a few years while they get Pontiac back in use with thier own design, technology and marketing team. Your absoulety right that GM is missing a huge piece of the puzzle without Pontiac. If Barra and GMs Board would consider this, Barra would become a instent hit with everyone. In terms of the dealer network, let Pontiac share with Chevy dealers. There would be a huge benefit for both brands.
“I do not know why GM can’t simply re badge some Holdens…”
Because there is no more Holden, as of 2017, in terms of original designs. You would have to fork Cadillac sedans to get RWD, or import Opel OPC models.
Personally, I think the duopoly of a non-luxury Pontiac and an extreme-luxury Cadillac would help cover Cadillac’s rising platform R&D cost structure. It would also stick it to Dodge and FCA which are just begging for a punch in the gut after all the GM merger plotting.
Not to mention that if Cadillac wants to have its own roadster program, Alpha would be a great candidate – but a Solstice-like roadster built on CTS/ATS production lines would help accommodate the program… mated to a 3-cylinder, it could also give GM a 50 mpg Kei car.
Flanked by torque-vectoring AWD Opel OPC cars, Pontiac could be very profitable as a low-volume captive import / luxury delete marque of other GM cars… and a sub-brand of Buick that would bring millennials to Buick-GMC dealerships.
But that’s making a business case for Pontiac, and the bean counters are racing to put their hands over their ears.
Caddy is now Camaro Alphas, GM performance sector is now firmly centered on Chevrolet platforms.
I have been saying for a couple of years that they should simply bring over left hand drive versions of the Vauxhall VXR series. That would of course include the Holden made VXR8. I believe most if not all of these cars already have the left hand drive engineered for the platform as they are sold as Opels on mainland Europe.
Pontiac didn’t do anything they can’t do with Chevrolet. I’d like to see them further consolidate between Chevy/Buick/Opel. Let’s them focus on less products.
Buick will never ever be consolidated into another brand, for one simple reason. Buick founded GM. Buick will always have a seat at the table.
The new Chevy ss is very nice….but would have been so much more appealing as a Pontiac. As a g8 owner I’ll stay in the car I have. Chevy can be so utterly boring and plain with some of their styles, unless it is a vette, which is understandable. Seeing what Holden does with these cars will make you sick……someone down under know D what’s going on….
yes, Chevy’s styling has always been milquetoast.
I’m also a G8 owner and it’s killing me not to see a aggressive Holden badged here in America …. Also the fact they are killing that division in a few years is a shame also.
As a former G8 owner, the only real option is to go to Chrysler where they have committed to performance autos as well as returning to American muscle. I have switched over and with exception of the vette, have no reason to ever consider GM again. Chrysler hit it right with options on the 200 and 300 and Dodge having the challenger and the charger. Don’t forget about the viper as well if you need to compare to vette. The sales figures don’t lie, GM made a huge error in line discharges as well as burning their shareholders.
We know that GM sacrificed Pontiac over Buick because Buick was (and is) hot in China. But it leaves GM without a “performance” brand, aside from select Chevy and Cadillac models.
There’s a lot of solutions for this. Chevy could have a performance sub-brand, led by the Corvette. Hyundai is launching the “N” showroom-within-a-showroom for its Genesis line, I think.
This is not the problem on the truck and SUV side. GMC has revitalized as an entry level luxury brand above Chevy and under Cadillac. GMC, post-bankruptcy, has been great.
What’s missing is a performance car brand. I’d drive the Cascadia if it wasn’t branded as a Buick, and had the 2.0L turbo.
Why do they need a performance BRAND? Let’s just worry about performance cars. The c7 and new Camaro are and are going to rock the competition. Wish they would make the Cheyenne concept and something for the Tahoe it Yukon too.
@Mister Sterling:
You said, “What’s missing is a performance car brand.” You’ve hit the nail right on the head. What’s missing is PONTIAC. Dodge has become the Pontiac of Fiat Chrysler, robbing GM of quite a few Pontiac fans. These fans have jumped from one performance-car brand to another. GM needs to revive Pontiac and win back those former Pontiac customers from Dodge. Look at what the title of this thread says.
There’s not a single Pontiac model since 1982 that couldn’t have been restyled and marketed as a Chevrolet.
That was Pontiac’s original function…a fancy Chevy. Once Chevies themselves became fancier, there was no further reason for Pontiac to exist. The low price field was moving upmarket.
Today’s Pontiac nostalgia stems from one thing: the ability of John DeLorean, Bunky Knudsen and Jim Wangers to reinvent and then successfully market Pontiac as the performance brand…the excitement brand. In the 1960’s, it worked so well Pontiac knocked Plymouth out of third place in sales. Even better – they did it without cannibalizing Chevrolet’s position in the marketplace.
But beginning in 1971 with the Nova clones, Pontiac’s aura began to decline. By the 80’s it was largely back to its original mission as a fancy Chevy, which in the long run hurt Chevy.
How can that be, with Chevrolet rising from 50% of total GM sales to over 70%?
True, but it’s 70% of a dramatically-shrunken pie. 53% of the market to just around 16%.
Consider the 2004-6 GTO…the beef was over the styling. The Holden Commodore on which it was based looked more like a Chevelle…so much so that some custom house made some conversions and marketed them as Chevelles.
GM could still market a Miata-fighter like the Solstice. Just build it as a Chevy…or a Buick.
Chevrolet is indeed GM’s bread-and-butter brand. But more and more people like fancy bread, maybe a baguette, bagel or English Muffin…and healthy spreads, or jams, jellies or real butter in place of margarine. Ford started figuring this out in 1958 with its first 4-seat Thunderbird, and from there on, Ford did what was best for Ford, even though it killed Mercury.
GM’s finally taking the shackles off Chevrolet, but it’ll take a decade or more of consistent excellence for public perception to catch and surpass Ford’s more premium reputation in the marketplace.
Any attempt to revive Pontiac will send mixed messages and only hurt this process.
nailed it..
Your on crack if you think ford has a premium perception. They’re a value brand, just like chevy.
Chevy is not the bread-and-butter brand. It is the meat and potatoes.
“GM’s finally taking the shackles off Chevrolet, but it’ll take a decade or more of consistent excellence for public perception to catch and surpass Ford’s more premium reputation in the marketplace.” Quoted from chas108
Ford is not has not and never will be premium. Ford has made it’s living as being a cheaper more economical automobile choice. Also just alittle side note Ford was the last one to pay off it full debt back to the US government after the bail-out and had to request 3 extensions before they finally got it all taken care of.
a chevy premier or ford titanium is the definition of premium. You don’t need no escalade when you have a suburban High Country 6.2 or duramax.
Bah in my opinion they did the right thing. Focus on core brands and give them the best product possible. GM is still recovering from 2008 and I think they are taking a slow and steady approach to their line up. Get the big ticket vehicles to the top of the heap…then they can start focusing on the niche sporty models…
Nothing described above could not be solved with “SS” trim models of Chevrolets. Chevrolet did this in mid ’00s with things like the HHR SS, Trailblazer SS, etc. Good cars that built on existing volumes. They pulled back because the diluted the SS “brand” with mediocre efforts like the Impala SS and Malubu SS. Learn from that and go on. I’d rather seen a compelling Cruze SS than some Pontiac Sunfire badge job.
Why the SS name was left as a trim to one car line, the Camaro and one model, the SS, is beyond me. The current SS model should have been a Chevelle SS.
It’s too big for a Chevelle. Impala SS427 LS7
While I miss the brand myself- my first car was a 1970 Firebird- the industry may need to consolidate even more. This is what’s behind Marchionne’s push to merge FCA with a partner. With new Korean brands making inroads, and proving themselves formidable competitors, there is a danger of bringing another brand back. Do we really need another hot hatch? What would a Pontiac brand bring to the space that it doesn’t already have?
Lets get a few things straight..
GM killed Pontiac even before the government stepped in. we had a performances division that had no direction and really no performance till Bob Lutz forced through the GTO, G8 and Solstice. Bob when he arrived questioned a performance division with no RWD?
Second the cars they have offered since the Fiero have been nothing but badged engineered Chevys with a couple other shared models like the Sky, Holden models and a Toyota and Suzuki.
What made a Pontiac you may ask? While styling was part of it the main part was the engines. The heart of a Pontiac was the engines. Also the innovation they offered be it plastic noses, OHC and other features the engineers and Delorean were able to force through.
The fact is what Pontiac became can easily be reproduced with Chevy or Buick if need be. There is nothing that they could not cover if the needs arises. While the Trans Am in the later years was a better styled car it still was nothing more than a Camaro under the skin. Same for many of their other cars.
GM since Delorean has never really known what to do with Pontiac. Their talented engineers over the year have brought us some interesting cars but only to have GM cut back on development money and make them less than they could have been. Or even worse forced them out as GM did not understand the product.
Just look at GM how they tried to sell a G6 with no real performance options. Look at the G5 how it was never offered with the Cobalt LNF SS engine?
The fact is you can rebadge a Opel but it will never be a Pontiac.
Add to this on how performance cars are not the sellers they once were. I hate saying it and seeing it but as a performance enthusiast I am in the minority vs. what it was in the past.
I was born and borough home in a Pontiac. I have owned and or driven some of the greatest models they have built over the years with letter like SD, GTO and TA in their names. I still own and show and win a Pontiac on a national show level today and know the Pontiac fans well. To bring Pontiac back will not bring many of the die hard Pontiac fans as they will just use Chevy engines. Many already of the later owners moved to Chevy as I have.
Now I would like to see more Performance models offered in the Chevy, Buick and GMC line. No question there it should be done. Performance models on all levels from 4-8 cylinder and price ranges. No more Sonic’s with decal packages.
To bring Pontiac back and do it right would take more money than it would be worth. It would never generate the needed volumes nor global market. Yes if Pontiac came back you would have to sell it more than just in North America.
Also GM has no need for more models but they could do some more variations of the ones they have. An Opel Hatch would make a great Cruze Hatch or even Buick in a OPC form. Camaro has the coupe market covered well. A larger RWD performance sedan on the Alpha for Chevy would be nice if you could price it right. Give Buick an Omega version with TT V6.
I love Pontiac and still am a proud owner but to bring them back now GM would never be able to do it right. It would fall short of the old school owners with no engine of their own. The later fans would be just as happy with a proper performance Chevy as that is all they had in the first place with some styling changes claiming to be a Pontiac.
To understand this you really have to look back to the 60’s as to what Pontiac really was and understand the ones from the 90’s while interesting really were nothing but restyled Chevys with some Buick engines. GM just would never do it right even today as there is no volume to pull it off right and no global market to take up the slack. I hate to say it but we are better off not damaging the name now and hold out hope that some day in the future they may be able to do it but do it right.
Agree.
Pontiac was the brand that most liked me from GM always; but he died when they removed from the line the traditional Bonneville, and the Grand Prix chased by the Firebird…
Rebadged new models “G” and the disappear of leading names 40 years sold and appreciated, killed the brand
They were always the “Chevrolet” thugs and sports.
Today Pontiac no longer makes any sense, people have already assimilated it’s gone
If GM kept the traditional names of all his life in Pontiac keep selling, the brand may survived
Greetings from Spain
sorry but here in the States many ppl are buying Dodges, Mustangs and Forte Coupes not to mention other car types that Pontiac would easily get sales from.
I’m gonna play arm chair quarterback and say what GM should do…
Pontiac can be a 3 car line (after all Chrysler has just 3 vehicles 200,300, t&C van).
make the G6 ( on the alpha platform RWD- many ppl would like an affordable type CTS car that is a Pontiac)
Make the G8 (instead of it being a Chevy SS)
make a 3rd vehicle- rebadge the Camaro as the Firebird or have some other car as a 3rd ride.
GM can bring back Pontiac – the loans are paid.
Basically Pontiac can be similar to GMC- a little bit more of a premium ride than Chevy supplies.
I like this idea. Would Pontiacs be sold through the Chevrolet dealership networks or do you propose bringing back standalone Pontiac stores? It seems like such a monumental task to restart the Pontiac dealer network.
The cost of doing this would be high and the return would be low. You could not afford stand alone dealers. You would have to sell them in dealers like Chevy. Do you think you would sell many G6 sitting next to a Camaro? How would you price it or option it to make it sell but not compete with a Camaro?
Now a future SS model on the Alpha as a sedan would be a good idea. Even an Omega bases SS would be a good idea too.
Rebadge a Camaro as a Firebird will only cut the sales of the Camaro by a third and cost you more profits because you have to tool up for two cars, stock parts for two cars and market for two cars then find a dealer to sell it. You essentially have killed the profits from the Camaro at this point. All this while you also want another coupe on the same platform that would be competing for the same space in the G6 you stated?
GMC can get away with this as they are basically the truck brand for Buick dealers and 90% of the parts are the same. Trucks also have a profit margin that also helps too.
Basically from an Arm Chair you would damage the profit structure we have now. Money is too hard to make to give it away like this.
Now on the other hand you may do an AWD TTV6 coupe for Buick that is more Luxury than Chevy but not optioned up to the level of a Cadillac and Call it a Regal or Grand Sport you may have something. Make it more of a touring coupe vs. performance car or luxury performance coupe. Do not copy the ATS or the Camaro and make it a more Euro touring car. This way it could also be sold in China and as a Holden and Opel. Note the Global market connection a Pontiac/Chevy would not have.
Keep with the Alpha or Omega sedan as a Caprice and offer it as a SS model too. This way you have a performance muscle sedan and a police car. It would step on no toes and fleet police sales would make money.
GM really does not need more Chevys and it does not need more Pontiacs but it could use a few more Buicks done in the new image they are going to work to. This way you can also use it to help Opel and Holden while China pays off the tooling.
Making cars and making money are the keys here not just making arm chair decisions from the heart.
As my old grand daddy said son always bet with your brain and no your heart.
G6 and G8 names can stay dead for all I care. The Grand Am was once a huge seller. A new Grand Am, Firebird, and Grand Prix should start them off. I’d line up to buy a new Grand Prix. I miss Pontiac terribly.
@KodiakF1504x4: Thank-you for your post, and welcome to this thread! Yes, I agree that model names are no big deal; what’s important is that the Pontiac BRAND return. I do admire your choice of models; the Grand Am, Firebird, and Grand Prix models names had been around for decades. I myself currently own a Firebird Trans Am. And, I believe the Grand Am was Pontiac’s bestseller from the mid-’80s all the way until it was replaced by the G6. The Grand Prix, of course, was Pontiac’s midsize model since ’78, when it was downsized. (Well, of course the Le Mans was also downsized to a midsize model that same year. I think the midsize Le Mans ran until ’80 or so, and then reappeared in the early-’90s as a subcompact.) I, too, miss Pontiac terribly. I sure hope the brand returns.
I’ve honestly seen more focuses ST and fiestas ST more than their normal counterpart
Wow, every idea posted here re: “being Pontiac back” is terrible. Thank God none of you run multinational, multi-billion dollar companies.
Do you run a multinational, multibillion dollar company? I think we know the answer to that.
The fact is those who do run multinational companies have use common sense and not brought back Pontiac because the numbers and markets are just not there.
The truth is that they can and have made more money without Pontiac than they did with.
The added cost of dealers, marketing development stocking the other parts needed etc all add up to added expenses that just never realized the needed profits. Also the issue that Pontiac really had no global presents and not likely to gain one soon hurt too.
Like I said I would love to have Pontiac back as a life long Pontiac fan but unless they could do it right there is no sense in it. Pontiac failed because Pontiac died in two years. 1979 when they made their last V8 and in 1988 when they built their last Pontiac only model with a Pontiac engine the Iron duke Fiero. All the car since were someone else’s cars with red dash lights and someone else’s engines.
Just compare the first Firebirds to the first Camaros and then compare the last ones built together. The early Birds had their own engines, suspension, options and other items. The last cars built were just two different styling exercises. Granted the TA was a better looking car but it was not a better or really different car than the Chevy.
The early years even the Birds were an inch lower. Most bought the cars back then for the Pontiac engine and torque the last ones built just got the same Camaro engine.
A simple marketing compromise is to offer three Chevy Pontiacs. Where ‘Pontiac’ is the actual name of the car but not a division. The Chevy Pontiac SC (Sports Compact), The Chevy Pontiac HH (hot hatch), and The Chevy Pontiac 2C (2 seater convertible). Do the Scion trick of one model, one way.
One could be introduced as a test. If it just sat there, back out.
Sure it would be nice if GM did bring back Pontiac . I owned two TransAms and two Grand Prix’s back in the 90’s . And at the time they were cool cars . Even the Bonneville SSEi at that time was a hot car for the person that wanted the 4 doors with a high output engine . But in the times we live in , boy racer looks and lots of plastic body cladding would never work . It would take alot of cash to bring back the division , to do it right and GM is still struggling with the divisions they currently have . Some analyists still think that GM is still to big . And they may be right . But it would be nice to bring back the GTO from the 60’s . Pontiac sold excitement , and you just don’t see that type of enthusiasm coming from GM anymore . JMO
“Pontiac sold excitement , and you just don’t see that type of enthusiasm coming from GM anymore.”
To be fair to GM, it’s not that they won’t provide cars that excite. It’s that the consumers have smartened up and don’t want gas guzzlers. Because as fun as the words ‘performance’ and ‘excitement’ and ‘sporty’ sound, more Americans (finally) hear ‘pricy’ and ‘gas guzzler’.
A BROADER ANSWER
GM’s problem isn’t that it needs more Pontiacs. It’s problem is that it’s not considered a great alternative to Asian cars.
As I pointed out in prior post, GM is surprisingly WAY ahead of Ford and FCA in RECOMMENDS from Consumer Reports. It’s like 1 in 3 GM cars are a recommend. This is an amazing achievement for an American car company. Ford and FCA aren’t even close to those numbers.
For perspective 7 out of 14 Honda/Acuras are a CR recommend. Toyota/Lexus are nearly 1 in 2 as well with 12 out of 26. These numbers are why these companies do well.
And I think GM can get there with trimming lines down instead of up. Or really making okay GM cars (Sonic, Cruze) awesome.
And you know whats sad is that SO many people take Consumer Report’s review on cars as the absolute truth and base their entire purchase decision on that alone. Stupid. I don’t understand it either. How can the same publishing company that just tested and reviewed a washing machine possibly know anything about properly reviewing/testing a car?
They don’t review or test anything. They take nationwide surveys.
Toyota squashed GM with 2 divisions. Need I say more?
This is proof also that you can do it with very little in the way of performance today. People unfortunately buy cars like toasters.
I would like just a few more fun models well placed inside Chevy and Buick.
You are correct sir. It is a different era today. People treat cars as if they are appliances. They are merely just a transportation device. And what sways people today…is it economical? Is it green? Is it cheap? Can i fit all my shit in it? Cars are no longer an extension of peoples personalities. Most don’t care if its exciting or charismatic. American car manufactures still need to continue to make a comeback on how they are perceived to the american public.
Toyota has three divisions.
Including one focused on “excitement” that ships a small, RWD coupe that isn’t a pony car. GM doesn’t do that today.
I have owned several Pontiacs over the years, and would jump on another G8 type car. Excitement? GM products just don’t seem to have it anymore. The one exception, their Corvette does have “excitement”, but that’s pretty much it. The Volt (and maybe the Bolt) have some kind of interest, maybe even a promise of things to come, but certainly not any kind of “excitement”.
Hate to say it, but GM, for the most part, has turned pretty much into an “also-ran” shadow of it’s prior glories of the 50s and 60s; struggling to keep up, hard of hearing, with eyes clouded with cataracts (just like the rest of us), seemingly more and more a resident of a retirement community.
Pontiac? With it’s own engine? Yeah, those were the days! Now, where did I leave my slippers?
Pontiac was known as “The Excitement Division”. I’d be carrying the flag for Pontiac to return, but to return as the excitement division not as a division of Pontiac Sunfires. Maybe a sporty Cruze in Pontiac, a G8, Firebird and Trans Am. But if it doesn’t come back as “The Excitement Division” I don’t want it.
@Hoffa: Beg to differ. Yes, Pontiac was indeed known as the Excitement Division of GM. But for me, EVERY Pontiac was exciting simply because it WAS a Pontiac. Every vehicle I’ve ever owned–including the one I own now–has been a Pontiac. I’m loyal to the Pontiac brand, not just performance Pontiacs. As long as the vehicle carries Pontiac nameplates/emblems, I’m happy to drive it, be it a Trans Am (I own one now), a Grand Am, or whichever Pontiac model. To me, a Pontiac is a Pontiac, and to me, they’re “all good.” “Better half a loaf of bread, than no bread at all.” Better ANY Pontiac, than no Pontiac at all.
Lets make this simple.
GM does not need Pontiac but GM does need to put some more excitement into some of the Chevys and Buicks. they offer.
My HHR SS is a hell of a blast to drive and was cheap. I never liked FWD, Turbo 4 or even HHRs but after driving the SS version I bought one. As I was waiting for it to come in I though what in the hell have I done. But since 08 I have never second guess my purchase and just love hammering the little turbo around as a daily driver.
Chevy and Buick do not and should not try to make a performance model of each model they make but a well conceived models between them would be good.
@hyperv6: Well, if GM doesn’t need Pontiac, you could probably say that it doesn’t need Buick or GMC, either. I think GM could use Pontiac again. You said, “Chevy and Buick do not and should not try to make a performance model of each model they make…” I agree. GM should revive Pontiac, and have Pontiac offer the performance models that you say Chevy and Buick should not try to make. It would be a natural fit; Pontiac for decades was GM’s performance/excitement brand. A LOT of folks would gratefully applaud such a move. Google, “Bring Back Pontiac” to get an idea of how many folks have been clamoring for Pontiac’s return, since the brand was shut-down five years ago. Count me among them. The only brand of vehicle I’ve ever owned has been Pontiac, and that remains true to this very day. I currently own a Trans Am.
Moanalua, I totally agree that GM needs to bring back Pontiac and I can name a reason that perhaps some haven’t thought of.
When you look at the Dodge line, and compare it to a lot of the Chevy line — no variety. Pontiac might give GM something they need bad right now — INDIVIDUALITY! A car that didn’t look like some mod of the other sport car lines; people from what I have seen are getting bored with all the “cookie-cutter” cars to choose from. Pontiac had style, even if it was like it’s competitor, Camaro, but it also started going in new directions that we loved, that were it’s own and great. I had a Trans Am, it was my second car when I was first driving and I love it. I have a Firebird now. And like so many people would love to see it come back with some new ideas, new models and a new Firebird line.
@Rain: Absolutely. And, how apropos that you should mention Dodge. For the past several years, Dodge has been stealing Pontiac’s former customers from GM. That’s because Dodge is Fiat Chrysler’s performance brand, just as Pontiac was GM’s performance brand. Regarding Chevy: While Pontiac was similar to Chevy, it was always just upscale of Chevy. That’s why I think Chevy and Pontiac could co-exist, and both brands would be viable. As it stands now, GM is losing many Pontiac fans to Dodge. GM really SHOULD revive Pontiac, and stop the bleeding-off to Dodge (and therefore, to Fiat Chrysler).
Chrysler should not have been allowed to survive. If not for friggin Fiat, Chrysler would have been dead. GM scraps Pontiac and Hummer, and Chrysler benefits from it. Have Jeep or Dodge sales ever been as good as they are now? I think that FCA is taking advantage of GM’s loss. But, I guess that’s business.
Chrysler should not have been allowed to survive. If not for friggin Fiat, Chrysler would have been dead. GM scraps Pontiac and Hummer, and Chrysler benefits from it. Have Jeep or Dodge sales ever been as good as they are now? I think that FCA is taking advantage of GM’s loss. But, I guess that’s business.
@Dan H: Well, I’m not sure that I can say that Chrysler SHOULDN’T have been allowed to survive, but I certainly agree with you that it WOULDN’T have survived if not for Fiat. What does kind of gall me as a Pontiac fan is that Dodge, in particular, is benefiting from Pontiac’s murder. For the past what, five years or so, Dodge has been advertising itself as FCA’s performance brand. That’s EXACTLY what Pontiac was for GM. I refuse to just take it lying-down. As a Pontiac fan and as a consumer, I want GM to REVIVE Pontiac, and have it challenge Dodge. I want Pontiac to return and tell Dodge, “I’ve got a bone to pick with you.”
@Rain: Absolutely. And, how apropos that you should mention Dodge. For several years now. Dodge has been stealing former Pontiac owners from GM. That’s because Dodge is Fiat Chrysler’s performance brand, just as Pontiac was GM’s performance brand. Regarding Chevy: Pontiac and Chevy were similar, but Pontiac was upscale of Chevy, That’s why I think Chevy and Pontiac could still co-exist, and both brands would be viable. Before GM loses any more former Pontiac customers to Dodge–and therefore, Fiat Chrysler–GM really SHOULD revive Pontiac.
They need buick because buick is loved by the chinese. GMC makes lots of sales, and the Hummer EV could never be a Blazer, or any sort of chevy.
Look on Autotrader for a nice Pontiac Grand Prix GXP. Few and very far between with asking pricing in the $15,000 range. I had a 2006 for 6 years. Wonderful vehicle, great reliability. Sold it to a good friend and purchased my 2013 Cadillac ATS Performance Edition – which I really, really like. Very reliable, looks great, drives like a dream. And fast with the 3.6. Love picking on Mustang GT’s.
Try finding a nice G8 GXP without after market alterations. Good luck. A rare 6 speed manual. LOL
Another one. Cadillac CTS-V Sport Wagon with the 6 speed manual. I hear about 500 were assembled. Find one which hasn’t been worked on – bend over ’cause it’s gonna hurt.
How long was the current Camaro out of production? Doesn’t seem to have hurt sales, has it? Been beating Mustang every year. Just wait for the 2016 alpha based Camaro and hell’s gonna break lose. With the amount of after market tuner equipment already available for the 2.0T? The light weight base model Camaro’s with 6 speed manual? Oh boy.
OK. My thought here. The Impala SS? Should have returned as a Pontiac G8 GXP. If the “chicken” tax gets repealed, oh boy a Pontiac G8 GXP Maloo. Gonna have to hurry, only a couple more years of production left. Don’t call it an El Camino please. GXP Maloo.
Woulda been nice had Pontiac been kept alive. Especially when they were about to re-introduce an El Camino (Ute) like vehicle. Just imagine the Solstice, Firebird, SS (GTO?), and El Camino in one show room. Wonder if the SS were called Chevelle or Monte Carlo would have any impact on sales? Don’t see many.
Screw Pontiac, I want my cutlass cruiser
Olds made some great cars in its time; my Mom had a ’70 Cutlass 442 that had a 454 (not the 455 Olds engine). It had something rather innovative with the transmission and the introduction of a dual transmission. She used to race her friends in it when I was a kid… they were in cops, in the Crown Vic’s too and she blew their doors off. Fun memories.
Pontiac has such a great number of people loyal to the brand because they loved them. If GM brought back Pontiac and it really took off, you really don’t think Olds would be back on the scene too in not that long? It, too has a great loyalty. They both would be in GM’s best interest to revive, I think our economy would have a large boost for all the jobs it would create that were lost. Plus there is always the next generation vehicles using green energy to run. GM could grab the market with bringing back the great cars like Olds & Pontiac.
@Rain: I totally respect Olds and its fans. My grandfather had a ’69 Cutlass, and my aunt had an ’03 Alero, I believe. (I know it was an Alero, but I’m not exactly sure of the year). However, I doubt that GM could revive both Pontiac and Olds. For some four years, I’ve been fighting battles with people on this website who say there’s not room for even one of those brands. In fact, I posted a response to one such person just about ten minutes ago. He said there “isn’t room in the market” for even Pontiac.
Sorry, I need to correct an error. This thread is only about a year old, so I wasn’t on it for four years. But there’s another similar Pontiac thread on this site, and that one was created some 4 1/2 years ago. That’s the one I was on for years, responding to naysayers who were against Pontiac returning.
pontiac was good in the 60s and 70s, but after that the cars had little personality…..i don’t think putting different bodies on essentially identical underpinnings creates much owner or shopper enthusiasm…….the sunbird had 4 rectangular head lights, the cavalier had 2……not much to get all excited about…..the grand am, gm’s best selling model at the time, had lots of plastic inside and out. the sporty pretensions were just that–pretensions…..my personal opinion is that 80’s, 90s and early 00s brands were marketed very poorly, just like the a-bodied chevycelebrity, cutlass ciera, and pontiac (was that the 6000?). remember the little “scandal” from the fortune magazine cover of the look- alike bodies….”cookie cutter cars”……other great moves include making a cimmarron from a cavalier chassis (do they even use that word anymore?) ……worse, putting different divisions’ engines in other divisions’ cars, which led to some bad publicity and legal actions, ruining brand equity, brand differentiation, etc. gm simply didn’t know how to manage all those brands was anybody in charge?…….(G Richard Wagoner?……same as no one in charge)…….so pontiac was already in trouble, only outspoken and independent-minded John Delorean knew how to manage a brand……yes, i miss the great firebirds, gto’s, bonnevilles etc., but badge engineering never helped anyone…….. gm doesn’t need pontiac back, imo– it can hardly handle what they have now………i think its more important that gm makes money, builds quality cars that people actually want, that make consumer reports’ top ten lists, and just bury once and for all the gm legacy of poorly made cars made on the cheap. personally, i miss oldsmobiles…….i think the aurora, intrigue, and lss were grat cars……but gm chased the same customers with its 4 core brands , a recipe for failure if there ever was one……..edsel, anyone?…..plus, pontiacs had little status, trans ams possibly excepted…….which was becoming a more important consideration for many……. the fiero was cool when it came out, but it had a nasty little habit of self combusting……..one of many quality glitches for the pre bankruptcy gm., tarnishing the brand….. i remember the old days of “body by fisher” and when driving a cadillac really meant something……..gm needs to give buyers of the different makes reasons to become brand cheerleaders……sorry for the wordiness, i tend to ramble on about marketing management issues….(old marketing guy)
Here is the deal. Go back to see what Pontiac really was and how they were mishandled.
They lost their engineering with the loss of their own power trains in the 80’s, They lost their own special models after the Fiero and just became a styling exercise.
In the 80’s Pontiac was on the chopping block but was saved with a surge of Grand Am sales as Old declined faster with no real strong models after the loss of the Cutlass Supreme.
GM found you can’t just take a same car and dismantle it by just shoving a Chevy engine in and changing the end caps. Both Olds and Pontiac dies as refashioned cars using parts of Buick and Chevy engineering.
To do this right they would have to have their own models and their own engines and that is not going to happen. It is amazing they have given Cadillac this but there is no chance Pontiac would see this with no real Global presents or even chance of one.
Our best hope is that we get some exciting models inside Chevy and Buick that we lack today.
What is a shame is too many look back on their own Pontiac experience. They think the cars from 1980 on were real Pontiacs when in fact most were just fancy Chevys and they really have no idea what a real Pontiac was and what we lost that drove away the base. GM really had no idea how to run Pontiac and would not let the engineers do what they could. The engineering staff was their bright spot but they seldom got to shine.
I agree with many of your points. But as I said before, that was then – reviving a brand that is still so sought after and has such loyalty to it says a lot for them. Mishandled? Yes, stifled even. But think of what a new Pontiac could be like; Pontiac was always innovative, even when blocked from realizing the full potential of the cars they made, after being gone a while and with what we know today, I know that the right team could design some remarkable cars. The push to be different than all the clone “Camaro-Charger_Mustangs” who wanted to look retro, which Mustang did, but Camaro and the Dodge Charger are just copy cats. New designers and a new Pontiac could set a mark so high that the others will race just to catch up.
GM should creat more excitement by bringing an SS version of the Sonic, Cruze, Malibu and Impala and why not a the TRU 140 concept for Chevy and its sibling for Buick or Cadillac to compete against the Audi TT and VW Sirocco. GM should also try to change the image of Chevrolet worldwide, the have to stop low coast cars and let this for a Deawoo resurrection and make Chevrolet to compete against VW.
GM has a couple of cool sporty cars like the Camaro and Vette. But they are 2 seaters and expensive. Yes- they have some cool Cadillacs, but they are too expensive. What else do they have in the reasonably priced sporty cars. Nothing. The Malibu SS is too expensive. How many younger buyers do you think feel cool in a Malibu, Regal, Cruze or Verano. Not many. I have owned a few Pontiac Grand Am’s and Grand Prixs in my day, and while not the highest quality, they had 4 doors, were reasonably priced and sporty. Can you say Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. In it’s day, it was much more powerful and certainly much cooler looking than the plain Hondas, Toyotas, Cobalts, etc. You can only do so much with the plain, boring family type cars like Malibu, Regal, Cruze, and Verano. GM is missing the boat. They should bring back Pontiac or a brand new performance division and offer reasonably-priced, cool looking, 2 and 4 door, performance oriented cars. I also think they should come up with a low cost, good looking, sporty car for younger kids to get them into the brand (and NO the Sonic and Spark are WAY too ugly). Just like McDonalds, once you get them hooked on your product early (but only if it is a good product), they will buy your brand when they get older.
@Steely123: Why bring back a brand-new performance division, when reviving Pontiac would do? That’s what this thread is about, in fact. Pontiac was GM’s performance division; bring it back. The neat and convenient thing about Pontiac is that–unlike Cadillac–it wasn’t too expensive. Pontiac was a brand that was not only sporty, but also a bit upscale of Chevy. I’m not so sure about your four-doors; I’ve owned nine Pontiacs and they’ve all been two-doors, including the Trans Am I own now. That, to me, is part of the sporty image of Pontiac. However, I realize that a revived Pontiac might not be able to survive on two-door models alone. Fine; bring along the four-doors. I’d rather see a four-door Pontiac than a four-door of any other brand. GM needs to immediately set-about reviving Pontiac. This was a brand that had a large, loyal fan-base, and was the #1 American vehicle brand in Canada. I think all of that justifies making a go of it. This very thread is a shout-out for the return of Pontiac.
You are right, Pontiac would probably have to spread out into create an SUV line to compete to the fullest. Pontiac always had it’s eye on keeping prices low, or well lower than their competition. Sometimes, it just takes a catalyst like bringing Pontiac back to at first trickle and then pour into our economy by giving working class people a car they can afford.
@rain: Well, for some reason Pontiac did develop a blue-collar, working-class following, but that’s ironic when you consider that Chevy should have occupied that role. After all, Chevy has long been GM’s entry-level brand. Ultimately, I think Pontiac evolved into a brand that was upscale of Chevy, but not as upscale as Buick and Olds. Also, Pontiac had a performance/sport emphasis.
I preferred Trans Am’s to Grand Pirxs but I do know that Pontiac makes some strong engines and after the ’70’s they got better by using higher quality iron in the blocks. A new Pontiac, even if they reissue the Firebird, Grand Prix, GTO lines, there is so much room to really let GM make cars that will draw people back to American made cars. With new technologies, and a new set of designers, this could really revamp the economy and make a lot of Pontiac owners happy, me included.
There are mod jobs you can do on the family cars but wouldn’t it be nice to have one that already looked like what you want?
Given a choice of what the government boys should have left I would have preferred that they have kept the Hummer H-4. This should have been the basis of a Cadillac division competitor to the Land Rover; and more importantly in the US market, the Jeep money division.
Besides, the Hummer already had the sharp character lines the Cadillac division had adopted as their signature look.
I really think GM is missing more the Cobalt SS than any of the last Pontiac models sold. The reason being is Pontiac only had two models worth a damn the Solstice and the G8. The Solstice sales were dropping due to the limited market of a 2 seater car and would have died even if Pontiac had lived. The G8 is the SS and if you really want one you can still buy one. While the styling is subjective the SS is an update and mechanically a better car.
Pontiac had nothing to compete in the segment of FWD nothing!. Lordstown built one G5 Turbo car but it was rejected by GM even if they had all the parts on the shelf. This was the old GM at work. I hope that once they get the Buick plan in and the second gen of the new Chevy models they will address the smaller performance segment.
The one advantage for Ford is they can sell them in Euro to off set the cost of the lower Volume. I hope that GM can use OPC to do the same for Holden and Either Buick or Chevy here.
Or at least make a Trax for under $30K with some kind of real performance option.
Repeat the strategy of Knudsen and DeLorean and they will both succeed and give Dodge and BMW a run for the $$.
They are at a loss without Pontiac only because the product planning management and marketing teams suck. They have plenty of options from around the globe that could successfully be brought here and sold as Chevy or for that matter Buick even. But they wont because they’re stuck in a rut thinking that not enough will sell or they wont make “scads” of money at it. So the public and enthusiasts suffer because of it. Dumb really dumb IMO
GM was leveraged across too many brands, so Pontiac ended up on the cutting room floor for financial reasons. But let’s face it, the brand had long lost its former luster. Buicks have a face only a mother could love, but the brand does fill the premium space better than Pontiac. GM still owns the Pontiac trademarks, so you never know…
@MikesZ:
The last sentence of your post says it all: “GM still owns the Pontiac trademarks, so you never know…”
I would like to encourage all fellow Pontiac fans out there: As consumers, let’s DEMAND that GM revive Pontiac. Pontiac was #3 at GM, and therefore logically has a large following. My loyalty was to Pontiac, not GM. When GM killed Pontiac, it lost my business. It won’t get it back unless and until it revives Pontiac. The Great Recession is over, and has been for more than four years. No more excuses, GM. Fellow Pontiac fans, may I suggest we play “consumer hardball”: No Pontiac, no purchases of new GM vehicles. Need a new vehicle right now? There are a lot of automakers out there other than GM.
How are they going to know that you want pontiac if you just stop buying from GM?
I’m a Pontiac enthusiast. I did it with my wallet as well as my talk. My dad had Pontiac’s (Catalina’s and Bonneville’s) and my first was a 79 Firebird. From there it was a list of their brand – 6000STE, Bonneville SE and SSEi’s and GP GXP. I finished my Pontiac purchases with a Pontiac G8 GXP (1 of 56 in Stryker Blue) in May of 2009. GM decided to drop Pontiac a month later. I was upset like most Pontiac lover’s were but as time went on, I was happy I made an investment in one of the best cars that Pontiac ever put their name on. I still have it today as my summer fun car and will probably pass it down to my kids and grandkids. I’ve moved on but stayed a GM loyalist. First a 2012 Buick Regal GS that could have been a Pontiac and enjoyed for 3 years and now a 2014 Cadillac ATS AWD 3.6 that also could have been a Pontiac. Never thought I’d buy a car from either brand but without Pontiac as an option, and wanting to stay GM, these were my options. I liked the GS and really enjoy the ATS but that Pontiac “We Build Excitement” emotional feel isn’t there. I only need to get in the G8 GXP for that.
Pontiac was awesome. I like to view it as a trashy, low-end performance brand. Really, they should’ve tried to compete with the Lancer EVO, Civic SI crowd. Bring a loud, American car to the ricer game. Pontiac could do that. To me, Pontiac was about fun. It was low-brow and loud. It was the opposite of a luxury car, but could still be made luxurious. It could bring technology, fun, excitement, and the love for driving to those with less means. Considering how fashionable it is to be a redneck now, with camo being a statement and Duck Dynasty being everywhere, Pontiac could totally cash in on that. As a non-redneck, I could acknowledge that that’s grotesque. But for a car brand, I find that pretty charming and awesome. My first car was a 2000 Grand Prix GT. I drove that thing into the ground. Shit fell apart over 200k (not unusual,) but the glorious 3800 Series II handled everything I threw at it with a sinister, old-lady grin. I somehow find my gravel-dented, duct-taped, fender-bent frame to be perfectly fitting for that car. It’s a tank, through and through. Does anyone else think that car has fantastic exterior styling? I do. It had cladding, but not too much. It had just a touch of that Pontiac grey plastic molding or whatever. It was not garish, but it was very aggressively and uniquely designed. If Pontiac is ever revived, I will be first in line.
@Emma: Interesting post. Actually, back in the ’60s, Pontiac wasn’t considered lowbrow or “redneck.” It was above Chevy in the “prestige” hierarchy, and was considered a classier, upscale alternative to Chevy. Therefore, Pontiac certainly wasn’t considered “trashy” back then. I think the Pontiac image you refer to, began in the late-’70s with “Smokey And The Bandit.” As we know, in that movie (and its sequels), Burt Reynolds portrayed a redneck ne’er-do-well trying to run from the law (in the form of the sheriff played by Jackie Gleason). Now, I’m not a “redneck,” either, nor am I trying to denigrate Southerners. I welcome ANYONE who is a Pontiac fan. I consider that ALL of us who hold Pontiac dear, are one big family.
Pontiac had so many great flagship cars, firebird, trans am, g8, fiero LOL, gto, le mans, tempest, a few others to be remembered.
I’m not sure why gm let go of a great line, such a money loss, considering I afforded a few of these flagships, but the corvette although is badass is way too expensive for most incomes, now pontiac made that difference by catering a great car for a great price that more people could afford and still enjoy a great powerful sport car.
BRING PONTIAC BACK!!!!
@jesse: GM claims Obama’s automotive task force forced GM to kill Pontiac. But, that was over six years ago. GM has repaid the feds’ loan, and is now free to revive Pontiac. Furthermore, the Great Recession ended over five years ago. GM apparently thinks that if we Pontiac fans want a sports car–or any other kind of car, for that matter–we can simply purchase a Chevy. My response to GM is: Take a hike. I want a PONTIAC, not a Chevy. If I purchase new, it’s going to have to be a Pontiac. Otherwise, I’ll likely purchase a Dodge. I’m not purchasing ANY new GM vehicle, as long as GM leaves Pontiac dead. If GM revives Pontiac, my next new vehicle WILL be a Pontiac. GM has run out of excuses. Even DMC is considering returning. If DMC is considering returning from the ashes, GM can consider reviving Pontiac. It was the #3 brand at GM, and the #1 vehicle brand in Canada. It also has a large and loyal fan base. Google, “Bring Back Pontiac”, and see for yourself. I repeat your demand: BRING BACK PONTIAC!
GM should really consider what DMC is doing and has been doing!
GM made some huge mistakes in killing PONT & OLDS . Buick was never a seller like PONT & OLDS . Buick never attracted the younger buyers and never will . I bet GM wishes they still had Lemans, GTO, Lemans ,Bonneville , Culass , 442 , 88’s still around to attract younger buyers & compete with that foreign crap
I’m italian, I love cars, and I was disappointed when US government imposed to GM the closing of the Pontiac. I’ve always like muscle car, and Pontiac has marked some of the more interesting creations in this field. I would be glad to see a new incarnation for the Trans-Am, as well as of the GTO.
So I think GM should revive Pontiac to be more competitive in the battle of the muscle-cars masters. I would be very glad to see the Pontiac be in competition with Camaro, Challenger and Mustang.
@Dario: As you are Italian, I assume you know that the initials of Pontiac’s GTO stand for an Italian term: “Gran Turismo Omologato.” Pontiac also built the first musclecar, which was the ’64 GTO. I currently own a Trans Am, so I too would like to see a new incarnation of the Trans Am. I had also owned FIVE GTOs before I purchased my Trans Am, so I’d like to see a new incarnation of the GTO as well. But, as you mentioned, we need to see a new incarnation of Pontiac itself, first. As Pontiac built the first musclecar, GM really should revive the brand, not so much to compete with the Camaro, as that’s a fellow GM musclecar. GM should revive Pontiac so that Pontiac can start building Firebirds again, so that those Firebirds can compete with Challengers and Mustangs.
I recommend GM to Bring back the legendary Pontiac, especially Montana, GTO, And Torrent!
They could sign me up i would love to buy an new grand prix best cars i ever owned i wish they would make them again
I agree whole heartedly. The Pontiac line had features that Chevrolet failed to such as heads up display. It’s getting time to consider retiring my 40th anniversary GTP and my ideal replacement is a g8 with 5.3 liter v8 but the 2009 model (last year made) people are still paying $20k+ for low mile cars making it unrealistic for people like me that want a fair and realistic price for a fun yet slightly fuel efficient daily driver. I need a family friendly car, grocery getter, I expect 25mpg+ on the highway, front wheel drive because who wants to drive a rwd car on ice and snow, I need reliability, I want something just sporty enough that it’s fun to drive and will not get bored of, and I need it all in one vehicle and that doesn’t scream “mr car insurance guy, please rape me” like a camaro or corvette would. Enter the G6, G8, and Grand Prix/GTP lines. My insurance driving a Grand Prix with supercharged 3.8l v6 doesn’t cost me one more cent per month than its non-supercharged variant. Meanwhile if the same drivetrain were transplanted into a camaro you could expect premiums to go up 25%-50%
Where are the affordable sporty mid-size sedans, GM!?!?
I was a diehard Pontiac customer. With them no longer being an option,the car searches have left me cold. I have owned everything from a Chevrolet to a KIA. All leaving diappointed and looking for something else,something more. I’ll continue to search,hopeful that one day I’ll find that spark of excitment again with GM. If not, Nissan, here I come!
I reccomend get a used SS, G8/G8GT/G8GXP, or a CTS. 1st gen CTS V had a 6.2 N/A.
I mean 5.7 N/A.
I always owned pontiacs firebirds trans am. Not a better looking car on the road We need to get them back. The only cars that are out there now all look alike and are mostly ugly. We need to have a little more diversity the only ones that are different are the vets volkswagens and jeeps really sad to see what the cars have come too compared to years ago when there were so many beautiful cars on the road
I don’t even drive any more gm cars because pontiac was the best one out of all gm cars
@Ernie: I still drive a GM vehicle, and it’s an ’84 Pontiac Trans Am. I will own no other GM vehicle but a Pontiac. The Great Recession is long over, and GM is financially stable enough to revive Pontiac. Unless GM revives Pontiac, my next new vehicle will NOT be a GM vehicle. Pontiac was the #3 brand at GM, and the #1 vehicle brand in Canada. It has a large, loyal following. I think a revived Pontiac brand would be viable. GM should move on it.
There are already too many brands in the market and bringing back Pontiac- basically a rebadged Chevy with different grille and taillight treatments to differentiate it, is just going to be a money loser. This is just nostalgia, and that won’t sell after the first few months. Pontiac and Olds were just brands keyed to status- Impalas with nicer trim. That doesn’t cut it in today’s world.
@Ralph: If there are “too many brands,” how is it that Tesla was able to enter the market just a few years ago? How is it that DeLorean is apparently going to be revived? Also, if Pontiac was “basically a rebadged Chevy with different grille and taillight treatments…”, can’t the same be said for GMC? Olds may have been keyed to status, but I don’t think Pontiac was. Olds was an upscale brand; Pontiac wasn’t. Pontiac was GM’s performance brand. Yes, Pontiac was a little upscale of Chevy, but it wasn’t a brand keyed to “status”; Olds and Buick were. If Tesla can cut it in today’s world, and if those investors bringing DeLorean back think DeLorean can, I think there’s room for Pontiac. Pontiac was dozens of times bigger than Tesla is, or DeLorean ever was. It’s ironic that people on this thread would naysay bringing Pontiac back. This is a Pontiac thread that goes back years, and it’s still going. This thread is an indication of Pontiac’s continuing staying-power in its fans’ memory, and it’s not the only thread advocating Pontiac’s return.
“how is it that Tesla was able to enter the market just a few years ago?”
The Tesla represents a completely different approach to the automobile market. It is not remotely comparable to anything else out there.
“How is it that DeLorean is apparently going to be revived?”
Only through a small piece of legislation that allows low volume specialty cars to be built. This is not the resurrection of a brand with a nationwide dealer network. The car is a novelty- a toy.
“Also, if Pontiac was “basically a rebadged Chevy with different grille and taillight treatments…”, can’t the same be said for GMC.”
Of course.
For decades, GM relied on building a series of Small, Medium, and Large platforms, none of them unique to Chevy, Pontiac, Olds or Buick. As Brock Yates pointed out, this conformed to a status totem one climbed through life: you started out in a Chevy, “moved up” to a Pontiac, then Buick, then Olds, until finally, if you made senior management, you climbed to the top of the status pole and owned a Cadillac. With the exception of Cadillac, none of these vehicles in any segment were unique. This is called “badge engineering” in the trade. This kind of marketing no longer works with the choices we have today thanks to imports. When we had a domestically captured market, this is what we were fed, and we ate it.
There was/is nothing intrinsically special about Pontiac except nostalgia. And that won’t sell to young people. Nor did Pontiac have a monopoly on performance: almost every Chevy from the Nova on up could be specced as an “SS” model, and the GTO just sold along branded clones: Chevelle, 442, Gran Sport. So you had four models with different trim levels competing AGAINST each other for the same customer. No one does business like that today. It’s not plausible, profitable or sustainable.
As it is, there are thoughts of killing Buick domestically. Forget it guys, just keep your old Goats and TransAms running, and savor the past. Pontiac can never come back.
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/07/general-motors-is-at-a-loss-without-pontiac-opinion-desk/#ixzz4Ch8o2xLP
@Ralph:
As the old saying goes: Never say never. People get on threads like this and talk as though Pontiac the car was in every respect the same as Pontiac the human Ottawa chief. Yes, dead humans can never return, but dead car-brands CAN. Never say never. People need to remember that Pontiac (the car brand) was shut-down some six years ago, but folks are STILL talking about reviving the brand. This thread is but one of many. Google, “Bring Back Pontiac,” and see what you find. Sure, not all the threads/sites are active, but the key is to NOTICE HOW MANY SITES/THREADS there are. And, some–like the one we’re on right now–are STILL active. Pontiac CAN return, and I encourage my fellow Pontiac fans to KEEP PUSHING for its return. Don’t give up; never say die.
It would be better to enrich the GS, V, and SS sub brands.
I loved my Pontiacs. Red dash lights, heads-up display, etc.; what’s not to like? Talked to a GM exec. a couple of months ago, and told him why I liked Pontiac (especially the red dash lights), and he said that market research indicated that the majority of people don’t like red dash lights. Really? People I have talked to loved them. What do you all think?
And then there is the HUD. Loved it. Miss it. After I traded my ’97 Grand Prix GT (nine years and about 190,000 miles), the only Pontiac I currently have is a ’66 GTO coupe. Unforturnately, it is 1/18 scale diecast.
GM pretty much leaves me flat now. I look at their lineup, and with the exception of Corvette and Camaro (maybe the SS although I have rarely seen them), I can’t remember why I am checking them out. Oh yes, perhaps to see if they have gotten off their butts and produced something else more interesting like the Volt and Bolt (but with some flair please). Unless you like to do offroading, GM does not produce too much in the way of heart pounding excitement.
Time to wake up Gramma, wait for her to find her teeth, and take her to the pharmacy for her once a month refills. GM fits her needs perfectly.
“Unless you like to do offroading, GM does not produce too much in the way of heart pounding excitement.”
Really? The V Series Cadillacs don’t get it done for you? The SS Impala? OK….
I don’t know why people are so nostalgic for these cars- especially since a modern Honda Accord can run circles around anything built in the ’60s.
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/07/general-motors-is-at-a-loss-without-pontiac-opinion-desk/#ixzz4ChCEIVT5
There is no SS Impala.
Whatevs…..
http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html
I know the car…you are just critiquing everyone else’s post.
It’s not that serious.
@Ralph: Get real. You’re telling us a Honda Accord can “run circles” around a ’69 Pontiac GTO, especially one with the Ram Air IV engine? Put down the crack pipe, please.
I don’t use crack.
Please see this original road test of a ’68 Ram Air GTO:
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/AardvarkPublisherAttachments/9990398695361/1968-02_HR_Ram_Air_GTO_Test_1-4.pdf
And here are the specs for a V-6 Accord Coupe:
http://www.caranddriver.com/honda/accord
The Honda smokes the GTO. Technology is a wonderful thing, especially after nearly 50 years. (sic)
There are cars today- like Vipers and Corvettes, available on the showroom floor, that would have been competitive in an NHRA sanctioned pro-stock class when I was a kid. And unlike those old Dodge Coronets, they have heaters. Also A/C, leather, infotainment systems…
Amazing, huh? I don’t smoke crack, and I don’t live in the past.
@Ralph:
Several points:
1. The best engine available for the ’68 GTO was the 400 H.O. It just so happens that one of the five GTOs I’ve owned was indeed a ’68 GTO with the 400 H.O. engine. I’m not sure if that was the engine the test-car in the article had. The article said the engine had Ram Air, but was the engine a 400 H.O.? I’m not sure.
2. The ’69 GTO was the first GTO that could be ordered with the Ram Air IV engine, as that engine debuted in ’69. The Ram Air IV was probably one second faster than the 400 H.O., but of course that would depend on the driver, what tires are being used, which transmission the car is equipped with, etc.
3. If you’re so enamored of the ’16 Accord, go get one and knock your socks off. I’ll take a ’69 Ram Air IV GTO instead of the Accord, any day. And, if we both tried to sell our cars, guess who would get a LOT more money? It’s all about VALUE, Ralph. You STILL can’t really compare a ’69 Ram Air IV GTO to ANY Accord. This goes beyond utilitarianism. To say that a top-of-the line Accord is comparable to a ’69 Ram Air IV GTO, is like saying that two Big Macs are just as filling as a Spencer steak.
The accord is a “better car”, but you do not get the excitement or cool factor to go with your “performance”. the GTO was crazy fast in it’s day, the Accord is not. I myself would (IRL) take a CTS-V wagon or G8 GXP supercharged, so I can drive circles around both cars, while getting the comfort and practicality of the accord. Then again, any decent classic is cool as a second car.
Yes, thank you. I forgot about the Cadillac, but I did mention the SS. And if you read my quote again that you quoted, there are the words “too much”. Whether today’s cars can run circles around those of our memories is irrelevant. It was much more than just speed. It was a life style.
Bring back Pontiac ?? I think they should bring back Olds . Olds had the best selling models in speed, and style in it’s past 100 years. What was better than the 60’s Starfire , Cutlass , Ciera, 88s. Through the years my wife and myself have owned 11 Oldsmobile’s ,now we are driving Buicks but that may change if they are going to be imported ..I will only buy AMERICAN made. . Pontiac and Olds were always better sellers than Buick attracting younger buyers for there style and speed . Buick will never fill the gap that Pontiac or Olds would have , it was a big mistake to kill them. If Oldsmobile was brought I would have 2 in our garage . BRING BACK OLDSMOBILE
@Tom G: As I responded to another Olds fan on this thread, I respect Olds. I have two relatives who used to own Oldses. However, it would appear that GM is not likely to return both Pontiac AND Olds. On another thread on this site, I had been battling anti-Pontiac naysayers for some 4 1/2 years, and they think there’s not enough room in the market for even Pontiac.
“I had been battling anti-Pontiac naysayers for some 4 1/2 years, and they think there’s not enough room in the market for even Pontiac.”
And the naysayers are right- the entire industry will shrink its brand footprint over the next few years, most people in the industry are painfully aware of this. There is no point in bringing back a brand that’s going to go head to head against other vehicles in it’s segment with nothing to offer than nostalgia for the brand. It’s bad enough Chrysler simply dumped the 200 and the Dart. Those cars weren’t going to keep Honda up at night, and it costs over a billion dollars just to launch a model today. The economics aren’t there. Pontiac and Olds are as dead as Studebaker and Packard.
Time to move on.
@Ralph: You could say there’s at least some nostalgia for ANY vehicle brand that has departed. What I’m suggesting is that Pontiac has a fanbase that’s sufficiently large that GM should revive it. No one is suggesting that GM should revive Pontiac only because there’s nostalgia for the brand; I’m suggesting that Pontiac’s large fanbase makes the brand worth reviving. “The economics aren’t there”? Funny that Tesla appeared out of nowhere just a few years ago, and now it looks as though the DeLorean brand will be revived shortly. Neither Tesla nor DeLorean has a fanbase as large as Pontiac does. Yes, Pontiac is dead; it’s been dead since 2010. I’m suggesting that GM should revive it. This thread is one indication that there’s demand for the brand’s return, and there are other threads and websites like it.
You’re repeating the same points. Tesla isn’t just a “brand,” it’s a totally new car product that has no competition, and no costly dealer network to build out. It’s not comparable to just putting out another bunch of sedans and coupes that will amount to nothing more than rebadged versions of existing models, which is all Pontiacs were when they were actually in production. The same cars, just with different grille and tail light treatments, spread across four divisions, The car market isn’t LIKE that anymore.
As it is, Tesla loses money on every car, and Ford sells more F-150s in two weeks than Tesla sells in a year.
As for the DeLorean, it’s not being “revived” in the sense that it’s a mass brand. The law that was passed that permitted it’s production is limited to a few thousand cars a year. That’s why brands like Morgan and a few oddball British imports are coming back. GM is not going to invest upwards of a billion dollars for that. Again: the DeLorean is a toy. A novelty product.
This thread is in no way indicative of consumer demand. You’re going to see some massive consolidation in the industry in the coming years, so be prepared to say goodbye to some other brands. You can’t keep stuffing the market with product with thinner and thinner margins. Something has got to give, and with both Buick and Lincoln being considered for the axe, these legacy brands have no chance in hell of being revived.
Don’t waste your time with Moanalua. He will not listen to reason or entertain any rational thought that is counter to his confirmation bias. It’s best to ignore him. You can look at the Pontiac forum and see where he repeated many of the same things here over three years ago. I had debated with him under the name Br!@n_E and despite my best efforts, he remained entrenched in his own opinions.
Oh, please.
First, I’m not the person you’re talking about, and second, when it comes to “rational thought,” you’re simply ignoring the empirical evidence. You forget the raw cost of launching a brand, like it was no big deal. You think Tesla proves something? How about Fisker? Did THAT prove something? Scion has also been scrapped and the other brands I mentioned may not be far behind. Ford knows it just can’t sell a rebadged Fusion, stuff it with leather seats and call it a “Lincoln.” The public GETS THIS, which is why they don’t sell, and the old method of selling near identical “step up” brands as status totems doesn’t work anymore. Keep denying this to yourselves, right?
Secondly, the only models getting any real traction in this market are SUVs. Sedans are dead by comparison. So when you say “bring back Pontiac” what are you going to bring it back as? A re-imagined Bonneville or Tempest? You’re kidding yourselves. If they produce a Firebird, it will only cannibalize Camaro sales, and that’s what you guys don’t get about the car business today. You can’t have brands WITHIN a company competing for the same customer. The whole market has changed, and that’s why Olds and Pontiac HAD to die. They brought nothing to the market the customer lusted after.
Suggest you guys listen to John McElroy’s Autoline podcasts so you understand what’s going on in the industry. This is a tough, brutal, competitive business that has no room for sympathies. Just the bottom line.
Ralph, please reread my comment. I’m on your side. I agree that Pontiac is not worth reviving. It was fatally shot with the move to corporate engines and was left on life support after the cancellation of the Fiero.
I was speaking of Moanalua. HE hasn’t listened to reason on this site (and others) for over four years.
Oh. Skipped an important word:
Don’t waste your time WITH Moanalua.
In the words of Gilda Radner:
“Never mind………”
@Ralph: I’ve tried several times to respond to Drum_Junkie’s post, but to no avail. Allow me to respond to you. If you wish to take Drum_Junkie’s advice to ignore me, that’s up to you. Yes, I heard that Scion will be discontinued next year, and that SUVs are outpacing cars. If Pontiac were to be revived, couldn’t its Torrent SUV be revived as well? Also, there seem to be a lot of buyers lusting after the Firebird Trans Am; there are several threads/websites clamoring for it. Finally, GMC seems to be defying your claim about “identical ‘step up’ brands as status totems” not working anymore. GMC is virtually an “identical step-up brand” to Chevy.
“If Pontiac were to be revived, couldn’t its Torrent SUV be revived as well?”
Great idea! Let’s bring back a Pontiac SUV which will be nothing more than a rebadged Buick Enclave which is nothing more than a rebadged Chevy Traverse.
What is the POINT of doing this? And do you folks realize what the cost of setting up a national franchise network is? Setting up distribution and marketing? There’s a real world out there.
By the way if you want to buy a cloned TransAm, this company will build you one:
http://www.transamworldwide.com/
@Ralph: Thank-you for having the courtesy to respond. The “point of doing this” is the same one that has GMC building rebadged Chevy trucks. There are consumers out there who want Pontiac back. Pontiac fans as consumers have the right to demand that Pontiac return, and that includes all the folks on this thread who have spoken-out for the brand’s return. Obviously, GM isn’t required to oblige, but consumers still have the right to demand that Pontiac return.
I’m not interested in a cloned Trans Am, as a cloned Trans Am isn’t a Pontiac. What I’m interested in is seeing Pontiac return. If GM would oblige, I wouldn’t even care if Pontiac revives the Trans Am. To me, what’s of primary importance is that Pontiac return. Once that happens, Pontiac can offer any models it wants. I would be very grateful to GM if it revives Pontiac.
Why would they take down GMC? It would take years to get enough revenue from Chevys to make up for cancleing orders, taking down signs, firing workers, and changeing plants. There are people who are exteremely loyal to GMC, and would buy a used one instead of a new chevy. The special tailgate and denali makes GMC different. Also, ever since the late 80s, firebirds and trans ams were just cloned camaros and Z/28s. The camaro came first, and is the only one still around, so if one clones the other (as long as firebird is dead), the firebird will clone camaro. It is too expensive to bring back pontiac (or olds or hummer, though saturn would be profitable), as much as I would love for it to happen.
The only entity that killed Pontiac was Chevrolet. Hogging all of the research and development money since the 1920s, all the other brands were expendable and constantly suffocated. in truth, GM could do without Chevy cars,making just trucks. But no one at GM would ever have the balls to be that bold. Of course, Pontiac should return, and GM would see renewed profits. The press coverage alone would be enormous! From now until my last breath, or until Pontiac returns, whichever comes first, I will go on hating Chevy with all of my heart and every fiber of my body! You can count n it.
@Arrowheadblood: Thank-you for getting on this thread and going to bat for Pontiac. Indeed, Chevy was similar to Pontiac, but a bit downscale of Pontiac. You surely have taken note of all the naysayers on this thread. I’d been going head-to-head against some of them for years. The fact of the matter is that Pontiac has a large fanbase throughout the US and Canada. There are quite a few websites/threads featuring consumers–such as you and I–who are demanding that the brand return. I look forward to being your ally on this thread as we and others continue to demand that Pontiac return. Thank-you again for posting and supporting Pontiac.
It feels like you have only written like 4 comments and all of your other hundreds of comments are just the good ol` copy and paste
Gm did make a mistake (again) , the remaining divisions should have been CHEVY- OLDS & CAD , so they kept Buick division , Buick never had the following and sales numbers as Olds or Pont did . Did Pont or Buick models ever have the sales that Olds had with the Cutlass ( best selling model in the early 80’s ) and Ciera had and they would have had the advantage of bringing back the Cutlass 442 . and for the GMC division , it is a duplicate of Chevy suv & truck models ???WHY . If Olds was still around I still know a lot of people that would own one , including myself
You’re too close to the subject. You’re a GM fan instead of looking at the big picture.
1. GM had the task of trying to bring younger buyers to Oldsmobile and Buick. Anyone in marketing 101 would tell you lose OLDsmobile if that was your plan.
2. You’re saying Pontiac sold better so why go with Buick? That’s like saying cheeseburgers sell better than veggie burgers and so why offer veggie burgers in a restaurant with vegan choices. GM made a choice between a performance brand and a luxury-ish brand. In these greener days they smartly went for luxury.
3. My Mom used to drive and Olds station wagon. I’d have never been caught dead in one. If GM offered the Oldsmobile Encore I probably wouldn’t have bought once. Since I had no real association with Buick I was able to. So brands can be tricky that way. If LESS people owned Buicks then less younger people would be caught dead in one… if you follow me.
Except it isn’t “greener” – Gas rested between $2/gallon and $2.50. If people are buying cars, they’re buying larger cars. That’s why the mid-size car race is so cut-throat today.
Meanwhile the luxury brands are struggling to sell passenger cars, and GM now has no performance brand to offer luxury-deleted versions (which is what the 2nd Gen G6, and G8, would have done for the ATS and CTS).
Keep in mind it was the Obama Auto Task Force that compelled GM to drop either Buick or Pontiac. GM wasn’t wrong, the illegal influence of the President was wrong here. GM can fix it, but they would have to do cap ex on bringing back Pontiac, and Barra doesn’t want to anger Obama-Clinton, predicting a Clinton continuation of the Obama Administration.
lol Everything is Obama’s fault. Right.
And so if the Obama Task Force asked GM to eliminate Pontiac OR Buick — why is it Obama’s fault GM chose Buick?
“why is it Obama’s fault GM chose Buick?”
Because it was a false premise. Keeping Pontiac alive as a G8-only brand would have cost little to nothing. There was no cost recovery or asset recovery from killing Pontiac vs keeping it alive as a captive import program of Holden.
All the costs that were spent on the Chevy SS, could have kept the G8 in stores at Buick-GMC dealerships. Hence, PATF had no grounds to demand GM shutter one brand or the other.
“lol Everything is Obama’s fault. Right.”
Sarcasm doesn’t work so well when it’s misplaced. GM would have exited Chapter 11 bankruptcy with or without a federal bailout. The only people “saved” were union pensioners – a large voting block for the DNC.
Americans need to understand that the world no longer revolves around the US. The ONLY reason Buick was saved is China. Period. This was purely a business decision, not a political one. Whether Americans buy it or not is nearly irrelevant. By 2020, every Buick will be made in China except one.
Ignorance isn’t bliss…
Wrong. Bob Lutz confirmed it was a decision mandated by politicians. That makes it political.
Holden-Pontiac-OpelRWD was something Lutz wanted to keep alive because he realized that autonomous vehicles will take 25 years to obsolete performance driving, and that gas could easily dip below $2/gallon. He was right on both counts – and all the President’s men were wrong.
Now Ford is racing to develop a new RWD sedan platform, FCA already has one, and Toyota is working to make a cheaper BMW Z with a backseat.
When you tie the hands of American companies behind their back, it’s pretty easy to fall behind.
@Christopher Price: Hello, my friend and fellow Pontiac supporter. Nice to respond to one of your posts again. So, it WAS Obama’s automotive task force that mandated Pontiac’s murder. Well, Obama is on his way out, and at this point I suspect that it will be Clinton who’ll replace him. Yes, she has committed to continuing Obama’s legacy, but would that necessarily include his automotive task force’s decision to murder Pontiac? Not necessarily. Besides, hasn’t GM fully repaid its federal loan? If that’s the case, then Clinton would have no say in the matter. GM could revive Pontiac, and there’d be nothing Clinton could do about it.
The problem is the same administrators and same infrastructure will be there. Obama isn’t leaving Washington. Most of the Obama administration workers and regulators will be left in place under a Clinton administration.
Barra does not want to anger regulators, especially while NHTSA still has them under regulatory review.
Legally, GM could restart Pontiac tomorrow. The problem is Holden is now no longer making non-luxury RWD cars, and GM has committed to a green/electric car future.
Keep in mind, to many staffers in the Obama-Clinton machine, Pontiac represents the same stigma as Hummer – pollutive cars that are dinosaurs, lacking need for anything other than “fun” – which is irrelevant in their view.
Mounting a business case for Pontiac to return will only happen if it is crystal-clear that gas will stay at $2/gallon for the next decade, and if car buyers keep embracing larger/sportier cars. Cars like the Model 3 help make that case (affordable, sub-$30k RWD go-fast), but I don’t see it happening if Clinton wins the election.
@Christopher Price: Hello again, my friend. IF Clinton wins the election? At this point, I’m pretty sure she WILL. I’m not so sure that Clinton is as “green-oriented” as you suggest. Besides, she AND her administration can take a hike, as far as GM is concerned. As you said, GM could revive Pontiac tomorrow, if it wished. GM needs to take a clue from Fiat Chrysler, look at Dodge. GM needs something like Dodge, and Pontiac is the PERFECT fit. Dodge is now FCA’s performance brand, and Pontiac was GM’s performance brand for decades.
lol Everything is Obama’s fault. Right.
And so if the Obama Task Force asked GM to eliminate Pontiac OR Buick — why is it Obama’s fault GM chose Buick? Based on comments above isn’t GM ‘stupid’ for cutting Pontiac?
And last time I checked — didn’t we SAVE GM by bailing it out?
@John Hart: Thank-you for your post. For years, certain people have been saying that GM kept Buick only because it sold in China. Yet, Pontiac sold MUCH better than Buick right here in the US. In fact, Pontiac was #3 at GM, right behind GMC. Therefore, why couldn’t GM have kept Pontiac, selling them in the US and Canada (as was already happening), and then sell Buicks in China only? Why couldn’t Obama’s automotive task force have allowed that?
You know, I’ve been on plenty of car message boards, but few are as lame as this one. This an article from this very website:
“There were two primary reasons for GM’s decision to dispense with the brand.
1) Pontiac has been unprofitable during the last few years of its existence.
This put Pontiac in a fatal position given that GM was experiencing severe financial problems ahead of its bankruptcy in 2009.
2) Pontiac was selling rebadged Chevrolet vehicles often at a lower price than Chevrolet, thereby not only earning a loss for itself, but also undercutting the Chevrolet brand altogether.
Several GM employees exhibited a last-ditch effort to save the brand, but their efforts proved to be in vain
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/pontiac/why-did-gm-discontinue-pontiac/#ixzz4H1lIGbkJ
The article goes on to explain why Buick was kept.
Aside from that, what gives someone who never walked inside a boardroom the idea that they know how to run an auto company better than the ones who actually DO the job? Along with Pontiac, Hummer and Saab also had to go, and losing Saab was a bigger loss for the auto industry. Unlike Pontiac, it wasn’t a rebadged Chevy- they built a unique product that actually contributed something to the auto world. It was different. The Pontiac was another stamped steel brand.
All Pontiac represented was a failed business model. Four brands, all built on the same platform, with identical engines and transmissions, each with it’s own dealer network, each with it’s own marketing, and all competing with each other for the same customer.
Know what happens in the car business if you keep that up in the 21st century? You’re no longer IN the car business. OK?
As it is, Ford has it’s hands full keeping Lincoln alive, because all the wood paneling in the car still doesn’t fool the customer that they’re being asked to spend another $10,000 for what is a nothing more than a Ford Fusion. You can’t get away with this garbage anymore.
But of course, blame Obama (why not), and let’s attribute quotes to Bob Lutz he either never said, or was looney to even say them: the most experienced hands in the energy business can’t tell you where oil prices will be six months from now, and I doubt that Obama directed the disposition of these brands himself. Unless, of course, they hemorrhaging cash, for which he should be proclaimed a genius.
So, I’m going to unsubscribe myself from this place, because the fan boys are beating a dead horse, and if anything, consolidation is the order of the day, not expansion. Of course, accepting this requires acknowledging reality, and at least SOME base knowledge of the auto industry and what it costs to maintain a brand in this market.
Have at it boys. Pontiac is deader than Eisenhower.
Ralph. You’re really Obama, right?
Yeah. That’s gotta be it.
(Wrapping myself in confederate flag and going back to sleep.)
@John Hart: Thank-you for your post. Ralph made some good points, but what he doesn’t seem to get is that, as consumers, we Pontiac “fan boys” have every right to continue pushing for Pontiac’s return. Yes, Pontiac is “deader than Eisenhower,” as he put it. But–unlike Eisenhower–dead car brands CAN be revived. I’d like to encourage my fellow Pontiac “fan boys” to continue exercising their rights as consumers to demand that Pontiac return. This is consumer demand; nothing more, nothing less. And, it’s perfectly legitimate.
Why are you replying to me? My only point is that blaming Obama for GM woes is ludicrous.
Sites acting up again. Must reply to self to add additional thought —
— if GM, it’s fanboys, or whoever didn’t want any influence from any President they should have run a company not needing a bailout.
@John Hart: Not everyone on this thread is a GM fanboy. I, for one, am a Pontiac fanboy only. Even when Pontiac was around, I wasn’t a GM fanboy because–as a Pontiac musclecar enthusiast–I didn’t appreciate the competition from Chevy, Buick and Olds. (We’re talking about the early-’70s, when Olds was still around and had the 442, Chevy had the Chevelle SS, and Buick had the GS, or Gran Sport. They were all competitors to the Pontiac GTO, and I have owned five GTOs). When GM murdered Pontiac, I became even LESS of a GM fanboy.
@John Hart: OK, perhaps I should have addressed my reply to Ralph.
I still see sooooooooooooooo many Pontiac Grand Ams on the road 10+ years after Pontiac shut down….
Bring back the Pontiac!!
@Rhonda Starr: Indeed, the last-generation Grand Ams were Pontiac’s bestseller. (I’m talking from maybe the ’92 model, and on). If I’m not mistaken, even the previous-generation Grand Am–I THINK that one ran from ’84 to ’91–was a hot seller, too. I personally prefer the G6, which was basically the Grand Am’s replacement. I saw a G6 coupe coming-out from a Jack-In-The-Box drive-thru just a few days ago; VERY sleek. And it’s not just Pontiac’s bestselling models that continue on; so do Pontiac’s fans. Try Googling, “Bring Back Pontiac.” You wouldn’t believe how many websites/blogs/threads there are.
I say bring back Oldsmobile so we could have the 442’s , Cutlass’s, 88’s 98’s Bravada’s
@Tom G: I certainly respect Olds fans; I’m sure they cherish Olds as much as we Pontiac fans cherish Pontiac. However, it doesn’t seem likely that GM will revive both Pontiac AND Olds; it will probably be only one or the other, if any at all. You can go back over this thread and see how the Pontiac naysayers would like to see Pontiac remain dead. Could you imagine what they’d say about Olds? I’m not saying that Olds is necessarily inherently inferior to Pontiac, but Pontiac lasted some seven years longer than Olds, and almost certainly has a larger fanbase. And, just as the naysayers say Pontiac was too similar to Chevy, those same naysayers would probably say that Olds was too similar to Buick.
The Firebird would sell huge if it came back into production .Same with the Grand Am another popular car .Yet do not need to call it a Pontiac brand .Now for this driver hits the wall https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1022/1022_01.asp
Pontiac should come back because they’re so rare now. All Pontiac’s are either stolen or in used car dealerships. And we don’t see many used car dealerships anymore.
@Nate Gentry: Well, there are quite a few used-car dealerships in the state where I live, but I don’t want to see only used Pontiacs. As a consumer, I’d like to see GM revive Pontiac, and start manufacturing new Pontiacs again. Pontiac deserves better than to be an orphan brand; this is an outrage.
I agree
I would like to see the Firebird, the GTO, the G8 and the Solstice come back. Pontiac doesn’t need to have mini vans and SUVs. They just need a few real nice and we’ll made sports cars. Maybe, in order to attract the younger buyers, Pontiac could develop a WRX rally type car too.
@Dan: Thank-you for advocating Pontiac’s return. For the past month or more, Dodge has been airing performance-car TV ads. These are the kind of ads that Pontiac would be airing, if GM had revived Pontiac. Ever since Pontiac debuted the GTO in ’64, it’s been GM’s excitement/performance brand. Time for GM to revive Pontiac, and have Pontiac go after Dodge.
I miss the Pontiac brand. I’ve owned nothing but GM cars and trucks, four of them were Pontiacs. Two Sunbirds, a Grand Prix, and a G5, which I still own. I would love to see Pontiac turn.
@Dan: So would I, and there are FAR more who feel that way besides you and I. I’m talking not just about the US (and there are scads of us here), but in Canada as well, where Pontiac was the #1 vehicle brand, period. Not only have all the vehicles I’ve owned been GM vehicles; ALL of them have been PONTIACS, including the one I own now. This is the ninth Pontiac I’ve owned, and I’m STILL a satisfied customer. The only thing I’m not satisfied about is that GM murdered the brand. Dan, let’s you and I and all other Pontiac fans who are reading this, CONTINUE to push for Pontiac’s return. I refuse to leave the brand in the gutter, where GM crudely kicked it to.
I agree
@Nate Gentry: Thank-you for your pro-Pontiac response. I don’t know if this is your first post on this thread, but please join our movement to see Pontiac brought back. Even if all you did is post pro-Pontiac comments, that’s great. And the more, the merrier. Let’s have our voices heard: “Bring back Pontiac!”
@Nate Gentry: Sorry, I just noticed that you did post earlier comments. Thank-you for those, too!
I think that Gm should bring back pontiac cause donld trumph is in office not Clinton and I think Donald trumph should talk to gm about bring back pontiac aging making Detroit come back to Life aging cause their is a Lot of Pontiacs on the road Lot of fans to that want pontiac to come back please we ask you please bring back pontiac
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha……
I’m not a fan of Trump, and I voted for Hillary. But if Trump should lobby GM to bring Pontiac back, I’d be with him 100%.
Sitting presidents can’t get involved in the business strategies of private companies. The only thing President Trump could do, is relax environmental regulations for passenger cars – which would encourage auto makers to build more muscle/performance cars.
Even if CARB increases CAFE standards, a dramatic drop at the EPA could encourage the development of “49 state cars” that are sold outside of California. After 7,500 miles, these cars can be sold legally in CARB states as “used” vehicles too.
@Christopher Price: Hey, Chris! Nice to hear from a fellow “Pontiac warrior”! It’s been a while. Well, OK, US Presidents can’t DIRECTLY influence GM’s affairs, but they can still have substantial influence. Look at what Obama did; I would assume he was at least partially responsible for Pontiac’s demise. I VOTED for Obama, so it’s not like I’m trying to get on his case here. If Trump liked Pontiac as much as you and I do, he’d do what he could to encourage GM to revive Pontiac. Certainly he’d be within his rights to at least LOBBY for Pontiac’s return.
The only reason President Obama was allowed to intervene (alongside the Auto Task Force) was that GM had entered bankruptcy. When you’re in bankruptcy, the government has control of your assets.
Many – myself included – feel the Obama Administration violated the law many times in that process, but the bankruptcy judge refused to intervene.
Today we are in a different situation, and New GM is a private company. All a sitting president can do for functioning companies is apply laws that benefit all companies equally. The president cannot legally lobby for a single company to do anything. That’s the law.
@Christopher Price: When I said, “lobby,” I meant that Trump certainly could implore GM as a private citizen, but the fact that he is also President would surely carry more weight.
It’s this infantile nostalgia for the past that got this monster elected.
It’s not coming back, Archie. Never.
“Gee, our olD LaSalle ran great…THOSE WERE THE DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYS!”
Without Obama there may not even be a GM or it would be Chinese owned. Keep in mind that Romney and the Republicans did not want the auto companies to get a bail out. This would also have wiped out Ford and the majority of suppliers. Without a bail out, most of the American auto industry today would be foreign owned.
And keep in mind that when the government gives you money, they can dictate what you do.
Mostly false or conjecture. The largest liability that GM had was its pension obligation benefits. It is highly unlikely that GM would have failed to execute a Chapter 11 restructuring plan, as it was profitable – provided it could wash its hands of poorly-written, poorly-negotiated past union contracts.
Also Mitt Romney did not win the nomination until after the bailouts were completed, so asserting his opinion mattered much there is also false. In 2008 it was John McCain, not Mitt Romney running against Obama. And McCain received more votes than Romney did in 2012.
You either have bad memory or are poorly informed. I stopped reading at GM was profitable. Are you kidding? The bottom fell out and with the entire economy near collapse, there was nobody to purchase the assets. FCA was such a basket case, they just gave it to Fiat in the hope of saving a few jobs.
I see you advocated saving Pontiac. What are you saving? Just a bunch of badge engineered poorly executed cars with body cladding that nobody wanted.
Keep in mind that Toyota dominates the industry with 2 divisions. The old GM model is obsolete and GM still has too many divisions for it’s significantly shrunken size.
You obviously don’t want a conversation, but you are raising many topics that were well debated in the past, I’m not going to give myself carpal-tunnel to argue with you. You are wrong. I am not misinformed. Factoring out pension and union benefit obligation, GM was profitable. The notion it would not have survived a clean Chapter 11 was not questioned by anyone at the time, even on PATF. Have a nice day!
I’m not sure what kind of background or education you have but every time I notice one of your posts, it’s a complete distortion of reality. What common people call BS or your lovely president, FAke news. Lol
Show me one accounting or breakeven analysis that Old GM would not have survived a clean Chapter 11. This is where facts literally trump feelings.
I didn’t bring politics into this one, you did. And you’re failing at it very well.
Just doing a quick Google search, it is highly unlikely GM would have avoided liquidation without the injection of billions in capital from both the U.S. and the Canadian governments. Those numbers are just to tough to overcome.
People have REALLY SHORT MEMORIES about how severe the financial crisis was.
As far as this infantile pining for Pontiac, it was dumped for a good reason, just as GM toys with the idea of dumping Buick from time to time. Oldsmobile died in 2004, for the same reason Pontiac did- the old “status totem” model brilliantly described by Brock Yates was no longer relevant.
In a market already stuffed with too many brands, bringing back a collection of rebadged sedans and SUVs would be suicide. The market can’t support it.
Brilliantly said.
Christopher Price. I could show you all the accounting in the world but guys like you would likely not understand it or wouldn’t recognize the facts in front of them in black and white.
Bankrupt is bankrupt.
@Ralph: I think it’s unfortunate that you used the expression, “infantile pining for Pontiac.” First of all, it’s not like Pontiac was some kind of toy for elementary school kids. Pontiac was a car brand; cars are for adults. Price and I grew-up with Pontiac, and have owned Pontiacs as adults. I STILL own a Pontiac, and Pontiac is the only brand of car I have ever owned. Would I would ask you to understand is that when you talk of “the market,” please keep in mind that “the market” includes guys like Price and myself. Pontiac was a pretty popular brand; it’s not like we’re talking about, say, Mercury here. Again, Pontiac was #3 at GM, trailing ONLY Chevy and GMC. Pontiac was also #1 in Canada. Price and I will continue to advocate for the return of Pontiac.
Look, Bud: nearly 70% of the car market today is SUVs and pick-ups. What the hell makes you think that an upgraded line of Chevy’s -which was all a Pontiac EVER WAS since WWII ended- would have a snowball’s chance in hell of surviving in the market? GM is selling off assets as the market contracts, like Opel, Vauxhall and now their Korean subsidiary, and they’re going to launch a line HERE? Are you nuts?
More than ever, the trend is towards consolidation and shared platforms. How could anyone be daft enough to believe a brand that has faded from memory for a huge portion of the buying public has a chance?
It’s an absurd infatuation. Just drop it already.
@Ralph: Pontiac had the Torrent SUV, and was in line to offer the G8 Sport Truck. I bumped into an acquaintance just last week, and he mentioned that planned G8 Sport Truck. In the past, he had a Chevy El Camino, and since Chevy stopped offering that, he said he had been eagerly awaiting the G8 Sport Truck so he could buy one. By the way, who are you to say that Pontiac “has faded from memory for a ‘huge’ (my emphasis) portion of the buying public…”? Like, the #3 GM brand has “faded from memory” for a “huge” portion of the buying public? And I wonder how many people in Canada have “faded memories” of Pontiac. Pontiac was the #1 car brand there. Further, speaking for guys like Price and myself, we have NO intention of “dropping” Pontiac already, nor do we have any obligation to do so.
@Chris Randle: Price and I go back some six or seven years, and we have both advocated the return of Pontiac. Many people accuse Pontiac of having “badge-engineered” cars. Well, that was the think back then. You mention Toyota “dominating” the auto industry with two brands. But, aren’t many if not most Lexus models just badge-engineered Toyota models? You also mention Pontiac’s body-cladding. First of all, as a Pontiac fan, I was neutral towards that body-cladding. I don’t see why the body-cladding should be considered a detriment. Is there anything demonstrably bad about the body-cladding? That cladding didn’t affect me one way or another. In any case, if I’m not mistaken, Pontiac did away with the body-cladding sometime around the mid-2000s, I think. I know their later models didn’t have it. You say “nobody” wanted Pontiacs. Then why were they the #3 brand at GM? They were also the #1 car brand in Canada. Pontiac sold as many vehicles annually as BMW. (Yes, we know BMWs were more expensive and brought more profit, but there was still an equal demand for Pontiacs.)
Here ya go, Macadamia Nut:
http://wondermark.com/c/2014-09-19-1062sea.png
Find a new hobby 🙂
#1 brand in Canada??? 40 years ago??
BMW was always ridiculously profitable while Pontiac was cash sucking albatross around GM’s neck.
Some people fall in love with ugly women or cars that were nothing more than junk… Lol Time tends to warp the neurons in your brain with contain your memory. You’re in love with an illusion.
@Rick: As I understand it, Pontiac was the #1 car brand in Canada when Pontiac was shut down. If that’s correct, then that was 8 years ago, not 40. Interesting that you mentioned BMW; Pontiac was selling just as many vehicles as BMW. Obviously, the reason BMW was more profitable is that BMW charged more money per vehicle. THAT’S why BMW was “ridiculously profitable.” Further, if you’re calling Pontiac “junk,” then so were all the other GM brands. Chevy, GMC, Saturn, Buick, and Pontiac were all GM brands. You’re saying that only Pontiac among them was “junk”? That’s ridiculous. Finally, I’m “in love with an illusion”? All I said was that I want Pontiac to return. That’s a fairly concrete idea; nothing “illusory” about it. Also, Pontiac was obviously not an “illusion;” it was as real as the computer screen you’re looking at.
Like yourself, I miss Pontiac. I owned several through the years and thoroughly enjoyed each one. My 1992 Gran Am coupe had the Quad4 with 5 speed manual. Hot as a fire cracker, virtually trouble free. The cream of my crop – 2006 Grand Prix GXP. Kept it 6 years with again virtually no serious issues. Replaced the alternator under warranty. Hard on batteries though. I traded it for a 2013 Cadillac ATS and regretted it. Oh well. The GXP went to a friend’s home and has received the best of care possible. It lives in a A/C equipped garage and looks as good as new today. My friend also owns a 1999 Honda Civic coupe which looks better than new. Oh well. I did trade out of the ATS and leased a 2016 Mercedes E400 coupe which I really enjoy. By the way the GXP has less than 80,000 original miles.
@Bob: Glad to hear that your friend is taking good care of your GXP. I have an ’84 Trans Am, and quite frankly, I’m surprised it’s still running. After all, it’s 34 years old.
Pontiac wasn’t the #1 brand in Canada as far back as 25 years. I’m in the auto industry and have never heard that Pontiac has ever been the best seller in Canada. Maybe more popular than in the US but that’s it. In the 90’s, only low end Pontiacs were sold in quantity such as the Sunbird, Grand AM and Acadian. They sold because they were cheap and can tell you they’re not missed. Like in the US, Kias and Hyundais have that market now.
I appreciate your nostalgia for Pontiac but it takes billions to build a brand and even more to rebuild one with a questionable reputation.
Find yourself a favourite model within Pontiac and restore it to pristine conditions and take it to car shows and have others admire it. That would be a healthy way to show your love for the brand.
@Rick: I first began posting to promote the return of Pontiac back in 2011, and I had read a number of posts making the claim that Pontiac was the #1 car brand in Canada. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, a guy who was himself from Canada, made that claim. Anyway, OK, let’s say Pontiac was #1 in Canada 25 years ago. I’d like to thank you for the more conciliatory tone of your most recent post. Over the past six or seven years, I’d had to deal with some extremely rude people online regarding Pontiac’s (hopeful) return. OK, so the more low-end Pontiacs were popular in Canada. However, I’m not so sure the brand isn’t missed there. Let me tell you, over the past six years or so, I’ve read posts generated by some very ardent Pontiac fans from Canada. There was even a Pontiac dealer there who tried to BUY the brand from GM, rather than see it die. I’m again concerned that you think Pontiac had a “questionable reputation.” Certainly, Pontiac’s reputation was no more “questionable” than those of the other GM brands? Also, I’m not under any illusion that reviving Pontiac would be cheap. Nonetheless, as a consumer, I would like GM to revive Pontiac. This isn’t about my preserving and maintaining a “token Pontiac” (though I do currently have an ’84 Trans Am). As a consumer, I happen to believe Pontiac deserves better than being dead. Also, I don’t appreciate my Pontiac being an orphan. As a consumer, I would like GM to revive Pontiac, and I’m not the only one. Google, “Bring Back Pontiac”, if you will. Again, I thank you for the more conciliatory tone of your most recent post.
Here is a list of auto sales by make and model for Canada in 2004.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/05/canada-best-selling-vehicles-2004-sales-figures/
The top selling Pontiac labeled car is a Sunbird, in NINTH place. In eleventh place, is the Chevy Cavalier- which is the same car as a Sunbird with different badging. In 12th place, the Pontiac Montana, a minivan produced by every GM division except Cadillac.
Feel the heritage……
What a joke. GM had no choice but to shrink brands. It’s dealer network had to be rationalized. Pontiac isn’t coming back and there’s no compelling reason to come back.
The brand is simply a vestige of Alfred Sloan’s sales model. You “moved up” from division to division as you got older. That sustained the company for decades, but it’s a dead business model.
Here ya go, Macadamia Nut:
http://wondermark.com/c/2014-09-19-1062sea.png
Find a new hobby 🙂
that’ll show em!
Hi. IAM Jeffrey moffett I never said Pontiac fadea away all I said that it’s different not seeing them in showrooms any more and I wish thay wheir back anging I guess I can dream cause I well all’s Like Pontiacs thayare still on the road today
I’ve been leasing/ buying GrandAms for many years since late 80s and I always was disappointed when they stopped making them! It would be soooooo great to get Pontiac back. The GrandAm is such a nice ride, it looks good its comfortable people are still driving them 16 years! I would buy it again for sure. I’m very sorry for the workers who will lose jobs at Christmastime especially.
I wish the reccesion never happened. We would all live in peace, pontiac fanboys, Chevy obligates, GMC patriots, Caddy people, Hummer fanpeople, Saab guys, and Buick people.
What a crappy response!
impala LS- CT5 LWB 404hp 3.0 TT
Lemans/Caprice- CT5 LWB 420hp 5.7
Lemans GTO/Impala SS427- CT5 LWB 550hp 421cui LS7 (427 impala)
Lemans GTO Judge/SYC Impala- CT5 LWB 650hp LT4
Firebird- camaro 3.0TT 404hp
Camaro – camaro 2.0t 280hp
Firebird Esprit/Camaro 350sport- camaro 420hp 5.7
Firebird Formula/Camaro SS- 550hp 421cui LS7 (427 camaro)
Firebird trans Am Super duty/Camaro ZL1- 455cui SC V8 800+hp (454 for camaro)
Trans Am R/Z28- camaro 600hp road legal race car 377cui
maybe a cruze SS/sunbird sprint with a 280hp LTG? A FWD grand am sedan and TranSport van would be needed to sustain the brand, as with a rwd chevy astro as a smaller alternative to an express and/or a sportier minivan. Pontiac would (sort of) take buick’s spot in the premium segment, with caddy moving upscale. Bonnevile could become a sort of XTS but bigger, with a 428/421hp 2+2 3.6TT model.
Then again, that is just a fantasy. As I have said before, It would be too costly to bring back the brand. We should work off of what we have, Chevy, GMC, Buick, and Caddy.
And for all of you complaining about olds, I guess it could happen in theory, but it is not unique enough. Olds lost it’s cool factor long before pontiac. Again, it would be too costly to bring back. I know it would be cool to have a Hurst/Olds, 442, and vista cruiser, but it is just not realistic. If you want to talk about how you would do GM, be free to go to my forum at https://gmauthority.com/blog/topic/how-would-you-have-it-if-you-controled-gms-lineup/ (i wont bug you if you bug me in a kind and reasonable manner)
Restomod,
We are now in a depression. We’re going to be lucky if there are any US brands left after this. Ford is basically finished and won’t survive. That leaves GM for now.
Billy,
No offense, but why is that the response to my comment specificaly
Because your list of vehicles, especially in these times is completely unrealistic when a company is fighting for survival.
That was not a list of what I wanted gm to do. I said that it would be too expensive to bring those brands back and if we want performance we should improve V/GS/SS/Z.
Oh shoot, I forgot to log out of my brothers acount. It’s stupid that we share a computer.