It isn’t the first time this idea has been explored. A Corvette sub-brand seems to be a hot-on-the-heels rumor tagging along with the all but confirmed mid-engined Corvette. Zora, Manta Ray, C8, ZR1 whatever nomenclature it may wear.
But Automobile sees a Corvette sub-brand a tad differently. Recent arguments call for a full line of Corvette branded cars and SUVs, following in Porsche’s footsteps. Instead, the publication calls for Corvette to hold hands with Cadillac across the globe to become its high-performance big brother.
And it doesn’t leave Chevrolet out either. Rather, it would ditch the Chevy name in favor of simply “Corvette.” High-profile Chevrolet dealers could easily still sell a Corvette sub-brand. And let’s be honest, the Corvette is nearly its own entity already.
In addition, Cadillac needs a great sports car to compete with the likes of Audi R8, and Mercedes AMG GT. Letting Corvette become a Cadillac showroom darling could increase traffic, and give the luxury brand the attention it needs in China.
On the flip side, it would be a cost saver too. Rather than re-engineering a mid-engined Corvette to higher Cadillac standards, it would simply already be done with a Corvette sub-brand. Not to knock dealership experience, but a dealer selling the Chevrolet Spark alongside a Zora Corvette seems a bit outlandish.
Does the Corvette deserve this? Absolutely. If the C7 Stingray and C7 Z06 are any indication of what the Corvette team can do, a move like this could turn America’s homegrown sports car into a true world beater.
Comments
Just Merge Chevy and Cadillac dealers and don’t fuck up the Corvette.
Thoughts —
1. As a non-muscle car person, I see Camero and Corvette at Chevy and do not initially understand why both are needed. I like the idea of ‘Vette more than a Camero (which I presume is common based upon sticker and look), and so Camero comes off as inferior. The ‘Chevy’ version of the Vette, if you will. And so if the ‘Vette wasn’t even on the lot, it would return the full spotlight to the Camero. Which is probably smart.
2. I’m surrounded by GMC/Buick co-dealers. It’s smart to have two different flavors on the same lot, so that there’s something for everyone to look at. For instance GMC doesn’t have a Verano, Buick doesn’t have a truck. A Cadillac/Corvette dealer means you’re not necessarily committed to a Caddy at all. This has interesting demographic implications. Younger people will visit, but everyone on said lot is loaded. Methinks middle-aged big shot man shows up to spy a Corvette, but wifey accidentally eyes a Caddy. Win/win. And as the article suggests, said couple don’t want to be seen with Cruze buyers. (I know this because my GMC/Buick and Cadillac dealers are a town away from the Chevy dealers.) Win/win/win.
3. Corvette would have to lose that Chevy BowTie in it’s logo.
(Awaiting a site blowhard to inform me I’m wrong on each point. Not because I am but because he’s drunk.)
It’s because the Corvette is a sports car and the Camaro is a muscle car/pony car. They’re two different classes of cars with two different buyers.
Also on your second point, I’m not 100% on what you’re romping about, I think you’re talking about a guy coming in to buy a Corvette and his wife sees a Cadillac but they can’t do that because they don’t sell Cadillacs at Chevrolet dealerships or vice versa. I was just at a Dodge dealership yesterday and they had a 2015 Camaro. It’s not like you don’t see other cars at a dealership.
Jimmy,
I opened by saying I’m non-muscle car person. So I was giving you the viewpoint of a customer who will never buy a sports car anyway — which is why I barely know anything about them. It’s like if you’re an Android person but didn’t know what makes an iPhone 5s designated at such. You don’t care.
To my second point, where I live, Caddy dealers seem to be stand alones.
For point 1, you said you don’t understand why Chevrolet makes both. All I said was they are two separate cars with two separate buyers. Corvette doesn’t affect Camaro sales and Camaro sales don’t affect Corvette sales. There’s people, like you, that don’t want a two seater sports car but some, at the same time, want a fast car but want a back seat and a trunk so they get a Camaro. That’s why there’s both.
For point 2, Yeah I get that a lot in my area too, but if there isn’t a few random GMCs or something in the Cadillac lot, a lot of dealers have a separate dealership, usually sharing a driveway, selling GMCs. Like that Dodge dealership I was talking about. Its a Dodge dealership and directly next to it is a Ford dealership both owned by the same guy.
Makes sense on the Cam and Vette fronts.
I see Camero as the ‘big deal’ sporty car for Chevy and the Vette as a bigger deal in general — which is why I could see it by ltself, with more models, sharing a Caddy lot. Those type of lots would be ‘drool city’… even though they attract potentially different customers.
Jesus. Are you completely incapable of spelling Camaro correctly even when literally every other comment has it right?
hahahaha right!
Incorrect usage of ‘literally’, Jake.
KAMARO KAMERO lol
There is a bigger difference between the corvette and the Camaro than there is between the Malibu and the impala or cruise.
You have a 4 seater sporty coupe (camaro) vs a 2 seater sports car.
You have a “start at $25 k” I just graduated college camaro and a “I’m going through a midlife crisis corvette”
You have a “daily driver with some performance” and “Track star”
Now there are various trims to connect the dots, as there should be. But they are completely two different animals with no real overlap in buyers. Sure I had a 2010 camaro, and now have a corvette, but thats because my needs changed. When I bought my 2010 camaro, it was my car. Now I drive a cadillac and have the corvette as my “fun toy”. My life changed and my cars changed.
I can understand your perspective though… here’s why.
I’m a “sporty car” person. I don’t understand why Chevy has a Cruze, a Malibu, and an Impala.
I look at them and think, “huh? lets add 2″ of leg room and call it a new car model? that doesn’t even make sense”. Same amount of doors, often the same engine, same number of seats, generally the same features. Who would ever go to a dealership and determine the Impala is 2″ too long and the Cruze is 2″ too short, and the malibu is totally necessary?
Now clearly it is- because sales volumes dictate it- but from my perspective, I find it perplexing. Why not just cut out the malibu and drive malibu buyers to the other 2 products, allowing costs to decline and increasing margins?
The answer is that as markets grow, segmentation must occur and competitors compete by better filling specific niches. However, thats the same answer that probably should suffice you when it comes to the “sporty car” segment. I think as the mid-size car industry dies out, the malibu’s of the world may have its days numbered…
If you can’t spell Camaro, do not talk about it.
Cadillac would make no sense owning Corvette.
For one, it would block making a proper XLR replacement – something Cadillac wants. C7 would overlap too much.
For two, it would block Chevy from having their own Pontiac replacement sub-brand. A baby Corvette to rival Miata (and replace Solstice) and a mid-engine C8 to create a three-car brand.
For three, it would kill millenials going into Chevy showrooms to sit in a C7, and then buy a Spark.
Corvette is valuable as a sub-brand, but not within Cadillac.
I didn’t get the feeling “cadillac” would own corvette, but rather that by having a sub-brand, it can stay within Chevy for the US market but in international markets, it could be sold alongside cadillac.
You can’t stick a “chevy” in a cadillac store, but it was an established goal of the corvette program to enhance competitiveness in international markets. Corvette does fit well with cadillac in some place like China, which is a bigger market than the US.
So if Corvette became a sub-brand, then it could be sold alongside Chevy in the US and alongside cadillac in China, and sold on its own in parts of europe…
Corvette belongs with Chevy. Period. The ‘Vette is the original Chevy sports car, and push come to shove in 2025 and beyond, the Corvette may be the sole GM car to retain the V8. Stay with tradition. Stay with Chevy.
Ram separated from Dodge in 2011. great move.
I don’t think its so crazy. It would allow them to grow the “corvette” brand worldwide. It would also allow them to sell it with Cadillacs. that doesn’t mean it would BE a cadillac, but you can’t sell a chevy with a cadillac because it will dilute the cadillac brand. However, a corvette WOULDN’T dilute the brand which I think is the point. In countries like China- which lets be frank is more important than the US as far as automotive manufacturer success, Cadillac is doing pretty well but has a gap in the sports market. Unfortunately you can’t throw chevy in with cadillac or you’ll destroy that brand image.
Make more corvettes, you’ll have more V8s… although lets also be honest… the idea of Corvette sticking with V8s forever is probably slim. Forced V6s are very likely whether they stay with Chevy or not. The love of V8s is really a US-Centric view of the corvette, and the US is only a tiny part of the product. A main driver of the Corvette redesign was to get more international traction…
I see your points, but I just want to bring a few things to you. Europeans also love V8’s, along with V10’s and V12’s, just watching Top Gear will tell that.
Also, yeah Ram broke away but the president of Ram has said before that Ram will always be Dodge and is even still vinned as Dodge but their marketing has shifted to performance for younger buyers. And they brought the Viper out as SRT to be a more standalone vehicle and it lasted 2 years now it’s Dodge again.
The deal is Chevy will not let Corvette go. If you go back through the history of the Corvette and Chevy and look at the cars and proposals that the Corvette and Chevy killed over the years you can understand the power held by Chevy and the Corvette team. John Delorean lost several proposals and the Fiero were killed due to the Chevys opposition to any other two seaters in a similar range.
As John Schinella the lead GM designer told me about the Fiero. Chevy sells more cars and gets more say on what goes on inside GM. The Fiero was headed to a DOHC V6 in a new body GT and they also played with a 2.9 Turbo as well as Aluminum Space frames that would have under cut the Corvette price by more than $10,000 and they did not like it. If that had ate into their sales it could have done some damage as even with their power they still need to make a business case.
I think what you need to watch and look for is an Expansion of the Corvette line. We will see more models and over a wider price range. This will increase volumes and lower costs of many of the parts and the plant. They will remain focused on just 2 seat cars. They will also remain the main stay of the Chevy dealer.
If and when Cadillac deicide to do a sports car or two they will be farther down the road per what they have stated. Also they need to be of the most top level quality and value and no mimic the Corvette as the last try did. They can share a platform but they need to be totally different cars as the R8 Audi and the Lambo are.
Now if you wanted to make something interesting do a limited run of Tahoe’s that have been engineered by the Corvette team. Let them do the suspension and put a Corvette code engine in it. Dress it up on the inside with better seats etc. Still call it a Tahoe but label it tuned by Corvette Engineering. Charge a premium for it and sell about 5,000 of them.
It would be a similar set up to the Trailblazer SS the GM performance division did only to the next level. You know many Corvette owners would have to have one to go with their collections and that would sell them out alone. This would not be some sticker emblem package but a real engineered performance Tahoe. Offer it in AWD?
The Corvette team did a wagon years ago that was a Caprice wagon that had a Corvette engine wheels and a tuned suspension because it carried the test equipment for them. They had to work on it because stock it could not keep up. I believe the Corvette Museum has it today.
At Cadillac you can no longer take the easy way out here and if they do a sports car it has to be their sports car with their engine and their styling to the top level beyond even the C7 in quality.
Mike you may be right on the V8 but even then it too is still at risk. If the trucks ever lose the V8 the Vette may lose it too. In the early 80’s the V8 was predicted to go away and The Vette team built a twin V6 Citation to test a two engine deal with AWD. It was fast but the V8 got the reprieve. Not going to say it will happen but the loss of the V8 could happen and has to be considered. The new Ford GT Lacks a V8 and I did not expect that.
As for Hart if you do not understand why there is a Camaro and Corvette you do not even deserve a response. I will let the others pick you apart. I see they have already started with out me already anyways. The real question is with your lack of understanding why are you even here?
Scott, No doubt that Chevrolet once had great influence within GM back in the era when the company was made up of real, separate divisions focused primary on the US market.
Today’s Chevrolet is very different riding on Opel platforms and, until quite recently, with Opel in charge on all ‘future cars’ marketed under the Chevrolet badge.
Chevrolet held great power before S. Korean operations came up with vehicles like Trax and Mokka by order of GM as opposed to the decision of any single division.
Mark Russia and Mary Barra seem most interested in GM as the world’s most valuable auto company as opposed to the swag of any single brand.
In the US, Corvette is far too bonded to Chevrolet any movement toward Caddy. In China, however, Cadillac and Corvette show rooms are a must unless Cadillac plans on luxury sports cars based on Corvette.
Globally, Corvette could enjoy fantastic success as a stand alone brand minus the bow tie. A complete range of offerings is a very attractive plan provided these vehicles are distinctive from Cadillac offerings.
I agree things have changed inside GM but not to the degree that you think.
Chevy still is the volume brand and at this point the one who brings in the most money. As in the past they are the protected one to a point.
Sharing platforms with other divisions is nothing new to Chevy. They have shared platforms for decades in North America and even globally as many of the same platforms were altured and used under other GM brands.
The only real difference today is that platforms are assigned to different divisions globally as some specialize in things others do not so they let them take the lead. But in the end all roads or in this case computers run back to Detroit.
I really see Corvette remaining under Chevy here in North America. Now globally I can see them as a GM brand since Chevy lacks markets in some countries.
The fact is Chevy was planned to be the global face of GM with the original plan to move to Europe. Now that has failed I see the fall back plan to market Camaro and Corvette and other select Chevy products under Opel or as a brand of their own in a GM dealer and later Cadillac dealer.
From what you post I agree and feel we are pretty much on the same line of thinking.
Now Chevy could in the future make a move back to Europe depending on what happens to Opel. Things are too difficult to predict there yet. I hope they pull it out but things in Europe are not helping them economy wise and other factors that are out of their control.
When the day is done if GM had to keep only one division and make a go of it Chevy would be the last one standing. That still commands power inside the walls of GM. You protect your teams star no matter what and everything else can be expendable if need be.
Plus one to ya!
Stephen,
I think a core issue within this issue is one’s perception of Chevrolet itself. If you value the history of the brand, the answer will likely be that Corvette is wrong to distinguish itself from the brand.
Personally I’ve never been impressed with Chevy as a brand. I’ve never met one person happy they got one. They kind of act like they got ‘stuck’ with one. This is a decades long impression.
So if you ask a fan of Chevy’s brand should this happen, I’d understand them saying no. But if you ask me I don’t see why a ‘yes’ shouldn’t be considered.
Opel’s influence on GM is changing my mind on this company. To see it rise in Consumer Reports is impressive. I hope it keeps rising.
But I’m not the only person walking around with this perception. There are millions of us.
“Personally I’ve never been impressed with Chevy as a brand. I’ve never met one person happy they got one. They kind of act like they got ‘stuck’ with one. This is a decades long impression”
Then how do you explain all the Camaro clubs, Corvette and many other Chevy clubs or the . and Chevy web sites for even cars as mundane as a Equinox and Cobalt. Then there are the Chevy based magazines out there that cater to nothing but Chevys old and new. The people who walk around with the bow ties on their shirts and hats must just be wearing them to not be naked?
The fact is volume brands like Ford and Chevy have some of the largest loyal followings of most brands in America. They have the most clubs they have some of the highest brand loyalty of most out there. They have a very strong fan base that comes from National pride, Racing, brand loyalty and more. The ease and affordability to modify and customize them also plays in. The Chevy engine is one of the easiest and most durable to add performance to even today with the limitations that have been put in place by emissions etc. Same with Ford.
Now granted in California you may not see it has most people there are not loyal to American brands in the So Cal area so you may not see it unless you look outside these areas.
It is true that Chevy and Ford do not have as strong allure they once had as there is much more competition today but they are still very dominate. Also these are base brands and the key is to always offer more in other brands to pry more money away as people move up.
Opel really has only some work on the platform. But still much of the work is done collectively on a global scale anymore and shared. . Different part of the new cars/Platforms today receive input from most of their global design facilities. They even move their designers and engineers around to these different facilities to give them global market experience. Like how they moved Bryan Nesbitt back from China recently.
Cars with them being designed globally go on 24/7 with the ways we can communicate today. Two teams often can be working on a Suspension in Australia. China, Germany and Detroit at one time. With todays technology you are no longer stuck to dealing with one group of engineers in one room.
Even today if you look around at automotive fan bases three of the largest and strongest fan base are still for Chevy, Ford and even yet Chrysler. As for Vintage stuff it has never been anything else but these three in America. An entire industry is there to restore and in cases replicate their old models as values are so much anymore. Even a simple Nova can command a price near $20,000 for a standard model in excellent condition and a Yenko model could pull 5 times that.
Now You will never see anyone say they are excited to own a Aveo but all MFG’s have models like that. I never heard anyone say thank God I own a Fit.
Yup. I hit the nail on the head. If you’re fanboy of Chevy, you’ll find every last comment I make strange and peculiar. With that knowledge, let’s go through this one more time.
“Personally I’ve never been impressed with Chevy as a brand.”
A person is NEVER wrong about their personal opinion of Chevy. Or are you that arrogant? (You probably are.)
“I’ve never met one person happy they got one. They kind of act like they got ‘stuck’ with one.”
Over the last decades, every last person I know has told the same story about rental cars. They hit the lot and hope and pray they get to rent a Japanese car. Not get stuck with some sorry ass Ford or Chevy or Chrysler unloaded to fleet sales.
Why?
Because over the decades American cars have proven themselves to be subpar pieces of crap. The Japanese cars are the first to go. Sometimes a friend will rent an American car that was ‘alright’ but never good enough for them to consider purchase.
Sorry if you can’t see this thru your bowtie-tinted glasses, but it’s a little something called reality. But don’t take my word for it.
Buick is the FIRST American BRAND to crack Consumer Reports in a LOOOOONG time. That’s not a South Cal thing. Or the other parts of the country I’m from, silly fanboy.
Since the early 80’s Honda and Toyota have been handing American cars their butts. That stupid bowtie = lame brand to anyone who cares about reliable cars that get decent mileage.
Which is most people. Most people don’t join or give a damn about fanboy car clubs. They want a car with a little style that seldom visits gas stations and never visits automotive garages.
And it’s as simple as that. How do the rest of us besides you know this?
If you look at the Top Ten best selling vehicles in May, and remove the trucks, you’re left with Camry, Corolla, Altima, CR-V, Civic, Accord, Fusion. In case you had a bowtie in front of your eyes: that’s Japanese, Japanese, Japanese, Japanese, Japanese, Japanese, and non-Chevy American. Which one is a sporty car? Let’s count together, shall we?
ZERO.
In this way I don’t really care if I spell Camaro as Kamairo. Because my point is ‘spelled right’. I see the big picture, which is readily available for any non-fanboy to see. Sales and Consumer Reports trump fanclubs and spelling.
“I never heard anyone say thank God I own a Fit.”
I have heard many people proud of their Honda purchases. California, by the way, is a massive market. So is the East Coast. I know your politics and so you dismiss these markets as irrelevant. Too bad for you GM would swamp its shorts to sell strong in these markets.
And I believe they’re on their way to doing so. Providing the obnoxious fanboys wake up and realize GM needs these markets to survive. And Kamairos and Koarvets aren’t going to do it.
Hart it’s Camaro no matter how you spell it.
No I stopped reading your post as it is so far out touch with the rest of the country. You give us the LA view and while there are many of you the number thank God is a minority.
John you have to look a the big picture not just what is in your back yard. I work in the performance aftermarket and it is part of my job to understand the auto market not just regionally or nationally but I have to see globally.
The fact there is much more than just opinion and what’s on the web. That is what I mean big picture.
I do not think you are stupid at all. I really feel you know what is going on in LA well. But that is not the norm for the rest of the country or today global automotive markets. While LA has some influence there are many more factors in play. That is even before we get into the government regulations not just in America but globally.
The fact is my industry has changed much since I started there 20 years ago. We have seen companies change, diversify and the types of product change due to the trends in the markets and the type of vehicles that trend up and down over time. The performance market is not as strong as it once was as the enthusiast are becoming a greater minority anymore. As we see more smaller engines and Turbocharging increase I expect to see more tune kits and the return of some folks to the performance market. Hell my Turbo 4 gained 60 HP with only a change of two MAP sensors and I re flashed the computer to put out 300 HP and 315 FT LBS from a Ecotec engine. With a stronger tranny the engine will do 340 FT LBS of torque with just a flash at 23 pounds of boost and still remain under the GM Warranty.
I have explained else where on why the Corvette will remain a Chevy at least in North America. It would be difficult to remove it from Chevy in this country. At least that is what I have learned from listening to the Marketing Managers at GM that I know. It is not so much my opinion but what I have learned. Now if they want to increase sales over seas and in Europe selling a Corvette brand in a Cadillac dealer will work much easier. It also would make more economic sense. Again not my ego or opinion just what I have learned from the people who make these decisions.
What you may mistake for Ego is more about what I learn from others. like you I needed to learn and I have from some of the best people to speak on the subject and not from people on the web playing Arm Chair CEO.
When you get invited to the homes of people who make these decisions you keep your mouth shut and you listen. That is what I do. Also I have to keep up with market trends so I have to read a lot of industry publications that are very informative.
I in no way feel I am any smarter than anyone else but I do feel I may be better informed on some topics and I express it in my opinion. You may have pissed me off in the past and I will hammer you. Sorry if I did but if I get sh*% I give it back as I really don’t always care when someone gets belligerent. This is the web and not a place for touchy feely people.
I have no hard feeling to you and if you do to me so be it. I am going to express what I know and feel and if you like it and can learn from it fine if not pass over my post. It is what it is.
I agree you have a lot to learn. We have some BS here but we also have some people that really have good post like Paul and others and you could learn a little bit by reading their post. We also have BS trolls and clueless people that just like to come in and jerk things around. It is the web and you will get that.
The point is never mistake Ego for experience or information. Much of what I relay is not my opinion it is what I have been taught by those in the industry and I am merely the one passing it on.
I am glad you are open to learning. Just use care on just who you learn form. Some of these folks know more than you give them credit for while some you give more credit than they are worth.
I am not saying you have to listen to me at all I am just saying Chose Wisely on who you do listen to.
I have no hate for you so get over that. I like to debate and I love a good informed debate. So do not take anything personal from me. Now with some others it may be much more personal.
“No I stopped reading your post as it is so far out touch with the rest of the country.”
And I stopped reading your post there — because I’m quoting Consumer Reports and national sales figures. National trends, not fanboy trends.
I skimmed a little further and found something else that is… so typical of sites and boards.
“WE have some BS here but WE also have some people that really have good post like Paul and others and you could learn a little bit by reading their post. WE also have BS trolls and clueless people that just like to come in and jerk things around. It is the web and you will get that.”
I do not recognize this WE you so condescendingly look down your nose from. You are not part of a WE I’m obliged to recognize.
You are only your opinions, nothing else. But you like to think you’re a BIG DEAL here. That’s the EGO part.
I’ve experienced you to be a condescending ass. That doesn’t make me a troll. It means you’ll full of yourself.
Pay attention. There are others liking my positions. Which is that GM can do right and wrong. Depends upon the topic.
I’m not a troll, I’m not a fanboy.
So be it.
As I can see you have no intentions of trying to get along so I will just pass up your post. No sense penalizing the others with our senseless debate.
Scott3 — I’ll get along just fine without your input.
Scott, The domestic automakers must retake the coasts and drivers in LA need to be excited by Chevrolet offerings if GM is to reach Barra’ goal of becoming the world’s most valuable automaker.
I live in NYC, and the tone regarding Chevrolet is much like John described in California. Here GMC is the only popular General Motors brand with Buick gaining steam in the surrounding suburbs.
The new Malibu is vital, must be a game changer, and Chevrolet must find its voice for marketing and branding (FCA has done well with this and as a result manages to sell a fairly high quantity of Sub par autos).
It would be a mistake for GM to overlook the major population centers on the East and West Coast. There is no excuse for a brand such as Nissan to be more successful in LA and this failure isn’t due to the residents but instead years of neglect on the part of Chevrolet.
Even I, as a GM enthusiast, have certain reservations about Chevy and favor Buick and GMC. Imagine how regular shoppers feel.
Agreed.
“The new Malibu is vital, must be a game changer, and Chevrolet must find its voice for marketing and branding.”
Buick had to shed (is shedding?) the AARP from itself. Critical for it’s survival.
As people like to say here, Chevy is a ‘value’ brand. Which there is nothing wrong with. I actually champion value brands. But for a ‘value’ brand to have any value to me — it must be definitely reliable, gas reasonable, affordable, handle itself reasonably well, and not feel like it’s going to fall apart a week after purchase.
My previous car of ten years was a Scion Xa. Great on gas, reasonably priced, better interior than the Chevy Trax (but nowhere near the Encore), solid little engine, nothing broke, and it NEVER went to the garage (outside of normal things like tires, brakes, oil).
If Chevy can’t offer me a Cruze something like this, I won’t be buying or recommending a Cruze to anyone. Why would I?
Just because my first car was a Honda doesn’t mean I put blinders on and join a Honda Alliance. That car visited garages all the time. Guess what my next car was? Hint: not a Honda.
The beautiful thing here is that the Cruze could be on the brink of becoming a recommend. If the Buicks are becoming one recommend after another in Consumer Reports, Chevy should catch up.
It’s within reach. I am a newbie GM Enthusiast because when you study this company’s cars broadly — it’s positioned stronger than Ford and Chrysler. It could become America’s #1 American brand… and likely take out Nissan and other weaker Asian brands.
I can just feel it.
Oh, and if you haven’t noticed: titans Honda and Toyota are making boring cars.
Stephen I fully agree with you. GM needs to win the whole country but some areas are going to take more time than others.
The first thing we have to consider is that the post Bailout GM is going to take some time to recover. They must first get the new and improved product out and then let it settle in with the public to gain their trust and respect.
The Present Cruze and Malibu were cars done under duress. GM dumped what money they had left into the product in the works back in 2008 and once they cleared the bailout they went back to work on them. They were better products than they have had in years but they were generally just up dates on old platforms. While better than what they had they were not good enough but they could not sit on the old products any longer either. They had to show some progress post bailout. Chrysler was not so lucky as they had no money left and it has taken them to get two remakes on older Fiat products and just some refreshed on the RWD cars. It will be a while longer to get replacements and this is not good for them. Jeep did get some money injected into them and it is paying off as did the trucks. Sad the money is not being given back to Chrysler.
These models were to buy time as they readied the new platforms we are just now seeing in the coming Cruze and Malibu. The Impala will be updated soon and the new Camaro is just now ready to drop too. These models represent totally new products as they are on new platforms, with reworked engines and all new styling. Nothing here is a carry over but some fasteners. The weight on each model is telling of the engineering as it was done the hard way as it was designed out yet the cars are much stiffer than the past ones. No just slapping on new aluminum panels and nothing else. The 300 pound loss from the Malibu is a major deal in this segment.
I expect from what I have seen so far on these cars the refinement is much greater than we have seen in a Chevy for decades. The MPG and features will be a major jump with the new web and little details like the phone coolers etc.
The real key is to keep the price competitive with the Korean cars. People buy the Korean cars for one major reason they are a good value for what you pay. They often find out that they are not always the most reliable or that they are cheap to fix once you pass the warranty but the initial buy in sells cars because they give a lot of car for less money. This is where GM is going to offer a car not as cheap but with even more value in refinement and features. They do not call this the volume value segment for nothing.
As it is GM can make the Malibu the best car in class but it still will take time to get people out of Honda Accords and Toyota Camry’s. People happy with their cars are often hard to remove. The new Malibu styling will help attract people but yet they will have to earn their trust and that will take some time.
It took Hyundai over 10 years to make the turn around. Nothing here is given it has to be earned with good product and time.
Buick is in a class where they have less competition and really are starting over for the most part. They were down to nothing in the show room a and to be honest the Lacrosse was an early start as was the Enclave for them as these vehicles were some of the first real new product GM did that was decent pre Chapter 11. But it is now old and the new models could not arrive any sooner to keep up the momentum.
GMC is just offering a little better trim than Chevy and people with money love the Denali. There is no real substance but a lot of chrome and some extra trim light lighted rockers and such in most models. It is one of those deals the added parts are not really worth the cost but people buy it anyways. More power to GMC as this is pure profit. It also shadows where Buick is going for people who can afford better than a Chevy or are down sizing from Cadillac. The next Gen of Buicks should move them ahead again as they will also be all new models and engines. Refinement will be the next level up here too. But yet it will still take more time to gain trust and respect here. These things just do not happen over night. Never have never will.
I would have never bought the present Malibu because I know how it came to be and I knew the next model was going to get the proper funding to do it all right and no compromises will apply. The Cruze also will see this as well as the new lines of CUV models. The Trax in a short time will be the worst model in the CUV line as it will be the oldest. That is how much things are going to change and change fast.
Things like the Colorado are already paying off on the west coast as people love the size and are willing to give it a chance. Being all new and best in class it should help earn trust here. Even the C7 with the next level up refinement is sending the signal that this is not just the same old Chevy with the powerful engine but ran short of money when they did the interior.
The road test will be out in August on these new models as the embargo should be lifted. I think many will be surprised at how much different these cars will be. One magazine listed the top ten sedans and while they could not say much about it they said the Malibu will be a force. The embargo keeps them from elaborating but they still included it on their list.
The next year should be interesting and the key is these new models are only going to improve as we have seen GM invest a lot of money recently in the test facilities and R&D. That is very important to a company on the rebound. You just can stop at one generation of improvements but yet many do.
I agree next year will be interesting in a very positive way. I disagreed with Morgan Stanley putting a hold advisement on the stock regardless of the Chinese economy.
Lutz started the GM turn around with products like Cruze and the 2008 Chevrolet Malibu that helped to spare GM a Chrysler – like fate. In fact, the Epsilon based Malibu was fantastic, deemed a super Accord by Motor Trend, was in most ways (according to customers /review /sales) superior to the current new Malibu (it’s design being a dull edged ATS inspired failure).
The new GM has had its share of hits and misses. The quality continues to improve but the over use of evolutionary design (usless unless product tops segment) to making Cadillac more conservative during an era in which luxury automakers are finally beginning to take risks.
Overall GM is going in the right direction and I trust Marry Barra to lead. I can’t, however, give New GM credit for the great work done by Lutz.
I think the China deal is one where they really don’t know what to expect. This is what has instilled fear in investors. China is uncharted waters and has delivered many positive surprises but also can and will deliver some major blows with their unbalanced economy.
Right now our media really shows little of it but there is a growing poor class in China that is far worse off from the undeveloped one they use to have. These folks do not farm and live where they can and with out work they are picking through garbage to make ends meet. If things fully collapse no telling what will happen.
Yes Bob did a hell of a lot with so little. It is a shame he was not there 10 years earlier. I own a 08 Bu and while not a perfect car it is a very good car. The Nox and Terrain remake on the Theta also is his work and has paid handsomely in profits. The HHR Sold in 6 figures for most of the years it was sold when many said it was too late.
Bobs greatest change was to start the change of GM culture. This was the key and today the good guys are winning the game. As he said the people who are not the problem are now in charge. Mary and Mark are two key people who will carry on what he started.
The last Bu was a deal were they needed a new car to carry them till the new platform was ready. The car we have now was just to buy time till the new one arrived. GM could not have kept the old one in play till this year in this segment. It was simply a case they did the best with what they had to buy time. That car was done when the chapter 11 was put in and it took too long to get it into production because of the delays. If it has beat the Fusion out by a couple years it would have faired better. It is not a bad car but it was about 2 years too late for the segment.
Bob also made his mistakes but if you make no mistakes you are not trying hard enough. He outlines them in his book and he does not hold back.
As for Cadillac taking risk. Well you have to look at the time line of management. They had a revolving door there and so many people in charge. Now we have Johan who is just starting his term and we have not had enough time to see his changes yet. I expect they will be telling. Cadillac took a major risk on A&E and while it did pay off to a point it also was very polarizing. Lutz took it and toned it done a bit. While it is still in play it is will show a wider appeal. Lets face it the CTS coupe was cool but many people either loved it or hated it there was little in-between.
But I fully agree Lutz was the catalyst for the changes we are seeing to GM. It is just difficult to know what is coming but to also know it will take time to make all happen. This is really going to be a Chevy year. Next year Buick and the year after that I expect major refreshes to the ATS and CTS with more new models then followed up in 2020 with the XT8.
Lets face it GM is getting more right than wrong today and that is a major change from in the past. Even their failures today are still better than the ones in the past. Also they are fast to correct their mistakes anymore. The new trucks needed a look to them that would have
The Turnaround at GM is not a one model one year deal. These changes take a series of models over several years. With each new generation and platform a giant step forward will be made. It always amazes me the folks who expect everything to be fixed with a LED lights and a few refreshes. Lasting change takes more than that.
Hey scott3,
I’m open to learning. Unlike you I can admit what I do and don’t know. Just because you know a lot about this topic doesn’t mean your opinion THEREFORE matters. You’ve got too much ego associated with your viewpoint.
The question of this article wasn’t “With your vast knowledge of GM history and colossal ego built upon such, do you see Corvette becoming it’s own thing a great idea?” Nope. That wasn’t it. If it was, you’d be one the only person commenting — a goal you’re clearly not opposed to.
The article merely suggested ‘rumor’ has it the Vette and Cadillac might hold hands off of Chevy lots. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of the topic is welcome to reply. You act as if there will be a quiz upon arrival of said lots — to see if anyone besides yourself qualifies to even walk on said lots.
Like it or not you’re just another opinion. Potentially over-informed and definitely over-impressed with yourself.
Drink up!
maybe i could lease a C06 finally
It makes more sense to me to just bring back the XLR. FCA tried to throw the Viper on its own under SRT and that lasted 2 years. Because you buy a Dodge Viper, not an SRT Viper. Same with a Corvette. It’s a Chevrolet Corvette not a GM Corvette.
Well FCA succeeded pretty well separating “RAM” from “Dodge”, and Ram is now its own company growing very well.
Viper is a low volume sports car targeting a niche audience. Corvette is a higher volume. Corvette is essentially the “US” version of “Ferrari”, and “Ferrari” can stand on its own without FCA also.
Viper doesn’t have a huge following, or huge sales volumes. I’d say they are pretty different animals.
Ram president has said before that the trucks will always be a Dodge and they are still vinned as a Dodge, the only difference is the marketing of Dodge as a more performance division. Plus it’s a truck, if there’s one thing that’s a guaranteed sell in the US is trucks. It’s not like truck sales have shot up exponentilly because it now is a different name.
The only reason Viper is a low volume car is because of its price. If it scaled to a V8 to compete with Chevrolet it would sell pretty close to the Corvette. Dropping prices by $15,000 has led to a 200% sales increase. Right now it’s more situated to be a supercar like the Z06.
I would love to see a V8 Viper offered but I really don’t expect it if they have not done it by now. From what I was told even the Hellcat will not fit unless they rework the car.
Keep in mind that Ram was as were other parts of Chrysler as it gives them the flexibility to close, sell or revamp a part of the company with out dealing with the other parts.
Case in point. Jeep and Ram are doing well and if Fiat needs cash later on they can sell one if needed. Not saying they will but the deal is they can if needed. Also they can sell just Ram or Jeep in Europe and not have to drag Dodge and Chrysler over since they really have few products that will do well there.
It is the flexibility of it that they hold with this. There is a real danger to the Dodge and Chrysler car divisions in the future if they do not increase volumes and profits now the trucks are not tied to them. They will have to do better or else at some point.
I would not be surprised if the Vipers is in the last years. Sales have not been good and they even shut down production in the last year to lower inventories.
I would not be surprised if Fiat does not make a move to a more expensive mid engine car. This way they can make a better profit at lower volumes. and they have a lot of Mid Engines sitting around they could base it on. Lets face it GM and Ford will be in the game why not the next Viper or what ever they call it.
Note there was some testing of a mid engine Chrysler being done.
Ferrari is not going to increase volumes because they do not want to flood the market. They want to keep a higher price point and a lower exclusive volume. But the parts bin can be raided to add a mid engine Chrysler product at a Ford GT price and volume and make more money than they are with the present Viper.
Arach – – You make a fantastically observant point. Americans are flexible shoppers and understand marketing.
Ram grew once broken from Dodge and fanboys didn’t boycott. This in large part had to do with Dodge loosing is identity a generation ago. Much like Chevrolet did beginning in the late 1990s through 2012 when the brand stopped bleeding market share.
An independent Corvette would thrive in N America and not suffer backlash.
I like the idea of Corvette as a stand-alone, as previously mentioned.
So you have some power and styling variations on the Corvette, a Corvette SUV and CUV, and a Boxster/Cayman/Panamera, give them their own store (not next to a Cruze or an Impala), and you’ve built a performance division people can believe in.
I’d spend $12b on Corvette before I spent that much on Caddy.
Just my humble but deadly accurate opinion.
I’d be much more inclined to go to a Corvette store than a Chevy dealership, especially if they brought high performance to a wider line of vehicles. Right now – sorry – but all I see behind the wheel of Corvettes is silver-haired 60-somethings.
Bring in an SUV and a CUV, and I’d venture you’ll see younger men (and women, especially women) driving those, the same way they’re driving Cayennes and Macans. Remember the Cayenne being blasphemous to Porsche?
They sell a lot of them, and the Macan, they can’t keep up with demand.
I guess you could gang Cadillac and Corvette dealerships together (but separate) – like a higher-end version of Buick/GMC. And I guess – in reference to an earlier suggestion – you could ‘Corvette-tune’ a Yukon, and they’d sell-out.
I know it’s blasphemous to some to suggest Corvette live separate from Chevy, but it’s a respected performance marque that deserves special customer treatment, which (I think) Cadillac is shooting for. And times have
changed – Chevy’s a mass-market brand, and Corvette isn’t. I think GM may be underestimating a sleeping giant.
“Chevy’s a mass-market brand, and Corvette isn’t. I think GM may be underestimating a sleeping giant.”
Agreed.
I encourage GM to think outside of their box. They’re already doing so, but I encourage them to keep doing so. Think the way Apple thinks, sometimes, just for spits and giggles. When you do, new ideas occur to you.
Tesla recently pulled this trick off in my town. In what is a bustling and upscale square of stores and restaurants, they took over an empty store and put three Teslas in it. Not a dealership, no high pressure salesmen — just a place for ANYONE to see and sit inside of a Tesla. Had they not done that, I never would have sat or considered such a pricey car.
You want youngins and women looking at Cadillacs and Corvettes? Bring the cars to where the people already are. And the closer to an Apple Store, the better. I think it’s safe to say everyone of every age wants to at least sit in a Corvette, and so having Cadillacs nearby couldn’t hurt.
Marketing is everything with dated brands.
IF you’re around LA, you may have seen the sad-ass Cadillac/GMC (huh ?) dealership on Olympic. Just west of the 405. Noisy, sketchy neighborhood, looks like a LaQuinta Inn or Taco Bell, with the clay brick exterior.
And just east of the 405, on SM Blvd, there’s a Tesla store. Clean, cool, and indoors, away from the noise of the 405.
A world of difference.
I recall Chevy/GMC dealers in general looking dated and run down for years. That facelift that went around (these last years?) really helped change that perception.
I’m speaking of both coasts. (Unless you believe I’m only speaking of LA, and then I can’t help you.)
No, it was the first example that came to mind where I’d seen two markedly different dealership experiences within blocks of each other.
And the only pairing of Cadillac and GMC I’ve seen, which isn’t a terrible idea, when you think about it…Other than Yukon and Escalade, there isn’t very much overlap.
I have to say, it’s kind of fun to see how passionate people are about Corvette.
Multiple GM divisions and watered down badge engineering is one of the factors that led GM into bankruptcy. Do you guys want to go there again? (the next time will be the last)
Everyone seems to be hung up on the fact that the Corvette is a Chevy and they want to keep it that way. With the current generation of Corvette, they vehicle is far superior to any Chevy. It has risen to the performance level of Porsche, Maserati, Ferrari, and Lamborghini. With that, they now have the chance to follow in those steps and become its own brand. I don’t think a sub-brand within Chevy or Cadillac would be right. You can’t keep such a high level vehicle a Chevy, and you can’t take an icon and move it to another brand (Cadillac). The best solution I see is to make Corvette its own brand in line with Porsche. Position Corvette and Cadillac in the same manner as Porsche is to Audi. VW is seeing great success with this move and with the latest vehicles from Cadillac and Corvette, they too could see the same. The two brands could be sold next to each other and compliment each other nicely. The extreme Corvette pulls shoppers into the dealership, but they leave with a more practical CTS. Cadillac could continue with its V offerings as a super luxury sedan and a mid engine supercar don’t really cross shop.
As most any Corvette owner what they think and they will say keep it with Chevy. They do not take change well. When they lost the pop up head lamps you would have though many had been asked for a Kidney.
Here is the deal. Top Gear summed it up well when they reviewed the C7. They said before the Corvette was always a great car for the money. Today It is not just that but also it is a great car even not counting the price.
The fact is the Corvette will always hold a limit on price accept for the coming Mid engine that will be sold in very limited number. How limited I have heard from 500-1500 cars at best. The price will be high and they are not going to make 25,000 or more as they do the C7/ Even the ZR was sold in and around 6,000 units.
GM will continue to offer a cheaper model that may remain front engine for the near term and in time move to a cheaper version of the mid engine. While expensive for a Chevy it will still remain cheap compared to Ferrari etc.
Now with Cadillac once they get their house in order they can make a Mid Engine much like the Evok Show car in nature. The show car is old now so I would expect a more modern and updated version could be made. It would be constructed of more expensive materials to cut more weight and house technology even the Mid Engine Corvette will not have at their price point. Now keep in mind the last thing Cadillac needs now is a very limited $500,000 plus sports car now when they have more important things like getting the rest of their lines that are profit centers in volume where they need to be. Johann already said they will do this but it will be later on. I suspect they first will do a small roadster first and work their way up. Just because they build it you can not expect people to pay big money for a Cadillac till they have continued to improve their image.
Chevy on the other hand has used the Corvette for marketing and racing and will continue to do this. Like stated they could let the Corvette engineers do their magic on other Chevy models like the Performances Division once did. This will give them the halo effect on all their models and it would give them the chance to do it right. The performance models could sport a badge that says tuned by Corvette Engineering like other cars in the past sported tuned by Lotus etc. Ferrari even has done this for Fiat.
This would leverage out the image of the Corvette and help sell more cars and more expensive limited models.
The fact is in America Corvette and Chevy are joined at the hip. Over seas the Corvette brand can be done more easily. The fact is both ideas will work but it is all a matter of where you live.
Corvette owners say keep it woth Chevy. And they don’t handle change well?
So, you can cater to the AARP crowd, use Corvette as a halo, and let the brand go sideways until millenials and Gen X turn 55. The circle goes unbroken. Comfy!
Or you can light a fuse under Corvette and let it live along side Cadillac or on it’s own.
Otherwise, Corvette lives in the house where Cruzes and Impalas are 0% for 72 months or $2000 cash back, just down the aisle.
I wouldn’t let the ‘Happy Days’ crowd steer Corvette any more than I’d let them steer Cadillac. Maybe the Vette team needs to move to the Left Coast.
The fact is the age of a Corvette owner is generally 40 years and older. Few younger people can afford them and even if they can the insurance for someone under 35 is difficult for them. In that age range you either can afford one or not new. The younger people generally go for the used ones as it fits their life better till the kids are out of collage.
As for the new sales you can make changes but you have to use care. Go to any Corvette site and they will bum rush you out if you speak of removing Chevy at least in North America.
The thing is you can say the Corvette marketing is broken but show one other 2 seat sports car that has lasted as long and still sells as many cars yearly. This is the Harley of Cars and is considered an icon. These cars are treasured by the people who own them and by many more who wish to own one.
Many car companies have moved to the left coast and returned, In fact Tesla is the only automaker really with much roots in California anymore. Nissan went to TN and even Toyota is now in TX.
This is a case where the Corvette is not broken. If we were struggling like the Viper to keep the line open I could see GM being open to making some changes as for now they are selling all they can build and will add more models soon that will increase profits of the car and their plant.
Also now that Ford has the GT coming again GM is not going to remove the Corvette as a competitor. The mid engines will challenge in sales and at the track. This is a classis head to head that will get headlines everywhere.
The NSX was sold as an Acura here and a Honda else where in the world as Honda holds a different meaning here than it does globally. The reverse is how Chevy is and that is why I feel you can get away with a Corvette brand outside the US but not inside.
As for Cadillac they have enough to deal with as it is let alone tossing a Corvette on top of them. They have a new flagship to worry about and they also have to revamp their entire line by 2025 and still add new models. They also have to create their own line of engines during this time so their plate is full.
The Corvette will remain a Chevy here in the States for the foreseeable future and continue to make a profit and sell a good number of cars with the coming additional models.
Exactly.
what ever happen to Cadillac`s version of the corvette the XLR. I thought that it looked good. it was based on the Corvette, but had more power , performance, handling, and of course, more COST, around for 9 yrs, sells were low in the nine years with a total sold 15460. it even had a powered hardtop.
see ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_XLR )
so my question is why change it, or give it to Cadillac, or go the way of Porsche in making different models of the the Vette,. we don’t need a four door version, that would be the SS, . we don’t need a SUV version, that would look stupid…
The XLR had several issues.
While they tried to remove it from the Corvette it was still very much a Corvette. The N star engine, folding top and more luxury features were great but the fact is the car in V series trim was $100,000 and not any faster than the Corvette.
This really hurt it’s image. It really is not a bad car but with the high purchase cost and bad resale it really proved to be a car many were reluctant to buy. My buddy bought a V series that stickered over $100K and just a few year later got it for $30K with low miles.
That is why if Cadillac gets a real performance sports car it needs to be much more than just a Corvette. I suspect the rule where the Corvette is the fastest will be surpassed if Cadillac ever does a Super car. But that is at least 10 years out. Johann said they have the intentions of looking to do something but there is much more to do before then,
The XLR was a good car that needed to be a great car to make a lasting impact.
Also note the car was made for 5 years. This is about in the range many sports cars last. 4-8 years is where many last before the sales drop on many. The Corvette and the Miata are two that have avoided this. Most others have come and gone. Some came back but left again like the RX7 and MR2.
As a automotive brand manager explained to me, Many sports cars are limited to who all wants them and in 5 years they are sold to all that want one and sales drop. Often it is difficult to make a business case for a car selling under 10,000 units.
One more thing needs to be factored in here.
Cadillac is moving away from GM. They want to be a stand alone division that just happens to be owned by GM. They will be doing more and more things on their own autonomously.
Now getting the Corvette away from the control of Chevy would be difficult. Now getting them away from under the GM umbrella would also be another hurtle.
One other factor. Would Cadillac really want the Corvette. To be honest with where they are wanting to go the Corvette while it is a great sports car is no where near where Cadillac wants to go. Would they rather wait to have their own car of their own design and their own power since they will have their own engines in the coming future?
Just might be the guys at Cadillac have their eyes on Ferrari etc and not the lower priced sports cars. It is easy to sell a higher priced one built right at lower volumes than to sell a lower priced on at higher volumes. Chevy has several times come close to not getting the business case approved over the years. They have to make money just as any other GM car and at the price they are at it takes volume. That is why the C7 was so important as the C6 was not doing so well at the end. Tadge knew he had to beat 25K units and keep changes coming to keep the volume up. This is why we are seeing more names registered.