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GM Extends Benefits To Employees In Same Sex Marriages

General Motors has extended benefits to the same-gender spouses of its employees that are married in one of the 14 states where gay marriage is legal, even if the pair do not currently reside in that state. The new policy allows the employee to name a same-sex spouse as a dependent for tax purposes, to name them as a beneficiary of savings plans, the ability to choose surviving spouse benefits as part of a pension plan and add them for healthcare coverage.

Existing benefits plans for people involved in domestic partnerships will remain unchanged.

The move follows fellow Detroit automakers Chrysler and Ford, who also offer benefits for employees in same-sex marriages. The Detroit three automakers scored perfectly on the Human Rights Commissions 2013 Corporate Equality Index in 2013, according to The Detroit Free Press.

Sam loves to write and has a passion for auto racing, karting and performance driving of all types.

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Comments

  1. Good job GM!

    Reply
  2. Not my kind of thing (Republican) But hey different strokes for different folks. . . .

    I think it’s a good thing for GM though. . . .

    Reply
  3. Evan Rasmusson, you know, there are homosexuals in the republican party too, some open, some closeted. Might be a good thing for your party too. The same goes for your church.
    “the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice”

    Reply
    1. I’m not bashing anybody, I have many homosexual friends and love them! I don’t support gay-marriage, I support anti-bullying laws. No one should bully anyone period. . . .

      I have heard of them Alex, they’re called “Log Cabin Republicans.”

      Reply
  4. Way to go GM! Smart decision – the right thing to do.

    Reply
  5. I’ve heard of the LCR’s up here. They seem cool, although they’re a minority in the spectrum of ‘right’ politics.

    A pity. The interview they had with them made them out to be much more agreeable and sensible than even our national PC party.

    Nevertheless, GM needed to get this sorted sooner rather than later. There no reason for them to present an image of discrimination, and no reason to turn away people. Thanks GM.

    Reply
  6. @EvanR

    so just don’t bully anyone for their sexual orientation. Leave them alone, sexuality is a private affair. The state has nothing to do in people’s bedrooms.

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  7. so dont bully gays, but deny them equal rights in relationships as far as protection under the law that only marriage provides, like visiting a loved one in the hospital, sounds good to you?

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    1. First off, bullying. What is bullying? Bullying is intentionally trying to hurt someone physically, emotionally or verbally. Second, my decision whether to support gay marriage or not is my opinion and you clearly should know this. I am not going to get into politics with you little buddy. I will not stoop to your level either. It’s my opinion and you saying that “Denying them equal rights in relationships” is bullying makes you sounds quite and downright weird.

      Reply
  8. ught up your beliefs, no one brought up your beliefs but you, so atleast have a backbone to stand behind what you said. And yes to tell a group of people they dont deserve something simply because of your opinion, is a form of bullying. If you had your opinion but thought they should still have the right to, that’d be different little buddy.

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    1. Everyone has the right to marry! I am not denying anyone anything. I support marriage, just not gay marriage. It’s wrong and not what marriage is for. Like I said, I have many homosexual friends and I probably couldn’t even function without them. We do everything together! End of conversation lil’ sport. . . .

      Reply
  9. Interesting to see the number of down thumbs on this article; given how it’s a rather innocuous internal GM human resource matter. Articles like these usually get no comments and even less thumbs.

    Seems like some people simply disagree with letting gay people have equal rights, so much so that a post on GMA might give them reason to feel uncomfortable with their unpopular opinions on the subject.

    Reply
  10. Saying no to gay marriage is like telling a black man he can’t get married! Remember all men are created equal

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    1. You are comparing apples to oranges. Racism is different than LGBT “rights.” All men are created equal, everyone can get married. Oh and Brian? Was that supposed to be a threat below? “I would love to talk to this fellow in person about this!”

      Just want you to know, that I can report you for threatening me. In fact, I might actually do it.

      P.S. That would be one pretty intriguing conversation, someone would get pummeled into the ground. . . (I’ll give you a clue, not me!)

      Reply
  11. This is why people like have no business being in a position to set policy!

    The constitution says all men are created equal! To deny someone that is unconstitutional!

    You use to not be able to vote unless you were a land owner! That seemed to have changed over time so why doesn’t this?

    Reply
  12. Then your a horrible friend, to have gay friends who are good enough to spend your time with but you would deny them freedom. “A man who denies a right to someone else doesn’t deserve the right himself” Abraham Lincoln. Grow up kid. Gay’s getting married or any other part of their relationship isnt even any of your business, so butt out of it and take your opinion with you. No one has the right to tell you how to have a relationship, and who are YOU to tell someone else??? Id love to know really, who the fck are you to think your opinion should dictate how other people hold their own relationships that do not have 1 single thing to do with you. Your an arrogant little kid.

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  13. A horrible friend! That’s being nice! He’s a scumbag bag! A pathetic person that has no business opening his mouth!

    I would love to talk to this fellow in person about this!

    Reply
  14. Okay, say what you want. I love this, I love getting called names. It’s fun and it really makes me feel great about myself! 🙂

    I am a scumbag sure, of course! Am I pathetic? Sure why not. Arrogant? Yup. I am a horrible friend! That’s the best you 2 could do? I’ve been called much worse!

    The saying “All Men Are Created Equal” is referring to the Civil Rights Movement, not gay rights. Either way it’s true, every man is created equal no matter what; skin color, gender or background you are equal! Everybody has the right to get married, I don’t see why that’s not equal. . . .

    I am a Republican, you obviously are libtards and dumbocrats (pardon, my French). You can think what you want, I will think what I want. You’re wasting my time. Let’s move on.

    P.S. I thought Dumbocrats preached tolerance and fairness. I guess not. . . .

    Reply
  15. It’s not a threat it’s me wanting to see you say this in person! So I could tell you to your face that your a ahole!

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  16. And I’m not the least bit worried about who would hit the floor first!

    Remember this country is governed by the constitution not your old out dated bible!

    Reply
    1. Are you F***ING retarded? The United States Constitution was and is written because of The Bible. Why the hell do you think we say “One Nation, Under God” in the Pledge Of Allegiance or coins say “In God We Trust” ?? Oh yeah that’s right, we have Obummer to thank for brainwashing everybody that this country doesn’t need to be run on The Constitution anymore. . .

      You can fight me on gay marriage, but don’t you dare disrespect mine and every other Christians Bible. I can already see where your going (I’ll give you another clue: HELL!) I hope you burn. . .

      BTW, I bet you haven’t even read The Bible (probably the one to follow satan). The Bible clearly is not outdated, and if you actually read it you would see right away! The Bible is meant for the times we’re in right now as we speak.

      Mathew 12:36 – I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak.

      1 Corinthians 11:31- But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.

      Revelation 22:18 – I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

      You should take a look at these, I think you may need them. . .

      http://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2011/01/50-most-important-bible-verses-to/

      Reply
  17. BrianR, its not necessary that you support gay marriage, just tolerate that other people than you have decided to live different than you.

    If there is a loving couple living together, they should have the important rights which marriage under bourgeois conditions gives them:
    • to have access to the partner, when he/she is ill, including the right to talk to the doctor(s), have access to the medical records,
    • the right to represent children living with the couple in one family to the school, doctors, what have you, with full parental rights.
    • the right to decide what is happening with the dead body of the spouse, should she or he die;
    • the right to inherit the common apartment, the couple has lived together after the death of the partner.

    A neighbor of mine in the same house as I happen to live shared his apartment with another man … and he died last year in May. The one staying over could continue to live in the apartment, because the two had married before.

    Do you want to deny a regular family life to other people, just because they love and live differently from your preferences? I think that when you ponder the issue a little bit in the details listed above, you will agree with me that nobody should interfere in such a couple and destroy a happy family.

    Reply
    1. Where did I say I didn’t tolerate LGBT? As I said, I have many homosexual friends and we all are best buds. I don’t support gay marriage because it is wrong, nothing else. Sure, I do want everyone to have a normal life (as you stated above). But gay marriage crosses a line. Marriage is between a man and a woman. It is an abomination to God. The way I look at it, sins are forgiven. But abominations aren’t that easy. You have to completely do a 360 and repent for everything.

      Reply
      1. Evan, you’re absolute right. Stand your ground. You’re not alone.

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  18. I think you have me confused with the other dude that’s a bigot! I think everybody should be able to marry anyone they want!

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  19. @Brian: please excuse me for the error. Of course, my previous contribution was addressed at EvanR, not BrianR.

    On the other hand, I do not think that it helps the discussion to throw denigratory names at other people. Let’s stick to the issue, not possible personal failings.

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  20. I’m dissapointed with GM over this decision, I think they decided to get out in front of this issue before the fascist lgbt mafia attacks them, like they do to other businesses that don’t want to go along with their perverted lifestyle, all homosexuals and supporters of homosexuals, need to turn away from this perverted DEATHstyle and turn to Christ before it’s too late.

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    1. I completely agree. Great words from an honest person!

      Reply
  21. If the bible is the cornerstone of the US, why isn’t a criminal offense not to be a christian in the US?

    That, and why are only 2 of the commandments (killing and stealing) the only ones that have any legal standing, even when such legal rulings can be found in non-biblical that pre-date the bible?

    Also, the “in god we trust” stuff was added in the early 50’s and wasn’t a statement upon which your country was founded. I’m pretty sure you know what the original, and much older motto of the US is; it’s still on your money.

    Also, if you’re going to throw biblical platitudes about, don’t unless you want some ugly ones thrown back.

    Nothing from bronze age Palestine matters in 21st century North America. The reason the West exists is to divorce itself from the needless baggage and unscientific third-world religions.

    Reply
  22. I’s called hypocrisy. To say you have gay friends but then to deminish their relationships by saying it goes against the bible. What the gay community wants through marriage is not “biblical” marriage, its marriage under the law that gives people certain protection. So if one partner is in the hospital, the other partner isnt kicked out for not being family or related, or if one partner pass’es away they have the same rights as any other married couple. If to you marriage is only from the Bible then you when or if you get married, only get married from a Priest and dont bother then filling out the forms for the government. Your like someone from the 40’s with race. Oh I have black friends, but dont think they should drink from the same fountain. Thats why you are delusional and dont recognize your own hate. I may not agree with what you say, but i do agree you have the right to say it. Which, if you dont agree with same sex marriage, then dont marry someone of the same sex, but when your opinion crosses the line to want to dictate someone else’s lives thats where the problem lies. Our founding fathers said church and state are to be kept seperate, so thinking your religious believes are higher than someone else’s, you should find another country. “All men are created equal is not referring civil rights, its the fcking constitution and there arent any exceptions to it. None. If your worried about the bible and what is marriage you should spend more time preaching of how Heterosexual couples have defaced the value of marriage, the divorce rate, “who wants to marry a millionaire. The Bachelor. Oh you straight people really know the value of marriage and want to preach to gays like you have a good grip on it in your community, preach to your own before preaching to others.

    Reply
    1. Wowee! Where do I start?

      – Me saying that I have friends who are gay but don’t agree with gay marriage because it is wrong is not hypocrisy, it’s actually called the absolute truth. I can be nice to LGBT people, I just don’t agree with them. I don’t make it right for them to get married.
      – Again with names; Delusional, Hypocrite. Really is that the best?
      -We’ve defaced the value of marriage? I think it’s the other way around, LGBT have defaced the value of marriage. Straight people are trying to keep the value of marriage.
      -Again, you can stop using my own lines. What, you can’t come up with your own wording?
      -Stop trolling, you’re wasting mine and your time.
      -I don’t think saying F***ING Constitution is very constitutional.
      -Me preaching? I wasn’t preaching, this all started from you preaching: “ught up your beliefs, no one brought up your beliefs but you, so atleast have a backbone to stand behind what you said. {And yes to tell a group of people they dont deserve something simply because of your opinion, is a form of bullying. If you had your opinion but thought they should still have the right to, that’d be different little buddy.”}

      Now I think I will preach! I’ll tell you why gay marriage is wrong:

      1. It isn’t marriage, marriage is a covenant between a man and woman.
      2. It violates natural law, good is to be done and pursued, and evil is to be avoided.
      3. It denies a child a father and mother, which is what marriage is for.
      4. It validates and promotes the LGBT lifestyle, which is wrong.
      5. It turns a moral wrong into a civil right.
      6. It does not create a family, but a sterile union.
      7. It defeats the value and importance of marriage, (i.e. stable environment)
      8. It imposes it’s acceptance on all of society, In every situation where marriage affects society, the society will expect Christians and all people of good will to betray their consciences by condoning, through silence or act, an attack on the natural order and Christian morality.
      9. It is the cutting edge of sexual revolution, If homosexual “marriage” is universally accepted as the present step in sexual “freedom,” what logical arguments can be used to stop the next steps of incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and other forms of unnatural behavior? Indeed, radical elements of certain “avant garde” subcultures are already advocating such aberrations.
      10. It majorly offends God (Jesus Christ) This is the most important reason. Whenever one violates the natural moral order established by God, one sins and offends God. Same-sex “marriage” does just this. Accordingly, anyone who professes to love God must be opposed to it.

      Marriage is not the creature of any State. Rather, it was established by God in Paradise for our first parents, Adam and Eve. As we read in the Book of Genesis: “God created man in His image; in the Divine image he created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them, saying: ‘Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.’” (Gen. 1:28-29)

      The same was taught by Our Savior Jesus Christ: “From the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother; and shall cleave to his wife.” (Mark 10:6-7).

      Genesis also teaches how God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for the sin of homosexuality: “The Lord rained down sulphurous fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah. He overthrew those cities and the whole Plain, together with the inhabitants of the cities and the produce of the soil.” (Gen. 19:24-25)

      Reply
  23. this is a company’s benefit program, why the hell is the bible coming into this. Yall bible bitches need to get a life. Focus on your own business and worry about you. Mind your own fcking business, i dont understand why yall can’t. It blows my mind yall are like little kids worried about what so and so are doing. MIND YOUR OWN FCKING BUSINESS. Its in no way, not even a tiny bit way any i repeat any of your business. The sooner you realize this, the better and happier we can alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll live. Until then, just stfu.

    Reply
    1. Us “Bible Bitches” are trying to help people find their way to God (Jesus Christ). But it’s people like you who are useless to try and talk to, because you’re so stubborn and unfaithful! You obviously aren’t a christian and probably never will be, I just hope for your sake that you find God before judgement. . . . .

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  24. At the risk of confusing things with another Brian in the discussion, I’ll wade into the murky depths here…
    It seems to me that the whole same-sex marriage issue would be simpler if the tax code and benefit laws weren’t tied to marriage. This brings a question. Should laws reflect the values of society or should laws shape the values of society?
    Personally, I think that how one engages in the sexual act shouldn’t determine tax status or benefits. People should be able to assign dependents regardless of marriage. If one person is the primary or joint bread winner and they share their income in the home which they both reside, they should be able to file jointly. Then it has nothing to do with what they do in the bedroom.
    If sex and taxes were separate issues, then the government wouldn’t be involved with what adults do with their private lives.
    And Evan… please reconsider your “I hope you burn…” comment. Christ came so that all may be saved, and, as Christians, we should care for and reach out to those who don’t know/accept Him even more than those who do. We should not wish harm to our neighbor, and by being obtuse and abrasive, a proper Christian witness is not being presented. See I Peter 3:15-18.

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  25. It also says separation of church and state! No where in the constitution does it say certain people can’t get married

    As for your bible I have read it more than once I might add, I use to go to church! But some where along the way I ran into people like you, you know those people who want to tell you how to live!

    As for that bible of yours, do you follow it?

    People like you are why people like me stopped following religion!

    All because some weak minded, closed minded, out dated person pulls one thing out of a bible and expects everybody to just follow!

    As for you, you read the bible and pick and choose what part of it you want to follow or force people to follow! You do realize it says being gay is a sin! But in your mind that sin is ok but if those to gay individuals sign a piece of paper that pushes it over the edge! Now that’s RETARDED!

    Don’t tell anybody how to live their lives!

    Reply
    1. It is your complete decision to stop following religion, it really shows how faithful you are when you let others choose your fate. I know that not everybody is perfect (including me), but at least try to be. That is my motto. Don’t tell me what I do and don’t do, you do not even know me (unless you’re a stalker! YIKES). Sin is not okay, it separates us farther from God (Jesus Christ). However, God (Jesus Christ) does forgive you if you repent and forgive Him for your sins.

      Proverbs 6:16-19 – There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

      Galatians 5:19-21 – Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

      If you are a Christian, this is the closest to hell you’ll ever be. If you aren’t, this is the closest to heaven you’ll ever be. Those words are the ones that keep me living everyday, I would have done something really bad to myself if not for those words.

      I am not telling people how to live their lives. I am simply telling them that they are living a bad lifestyle that will get them in trouble on judgement day and that I want to help them (or you could call it “tough love”).

      It is sickening to see my country get ruined with the wicked people out there. The more and more we drift away from the truth, the more people who follow it are wrong and apparently “disgusting.”

      I am not angry anymore, I am sorry if I offended you Brian. I clearly am just a little over opinionated (with one exception: Driving foreign cars. That is gross.)

      Reply
  26. You are telling people how to live their lives when you say they shouldn’t be doing something and then supporting a cause that keeps them for doing just that!

    I bet you support state’s that don’t allow gay marriage, so your telling these people that this is something I don’t want you to do and if you try we’re going to make a law to stop you!

    This mentality is what’s sad!

    Reply
  27. This is in response to EvanR’s reply to me on November 12, 2013 at 10:33 am, where he asserts to have many homosexual good friends, but does not take up in his reply the four rights he is denying to his good friends, forcing them to live as strangers with their spouses, without e.g. the right to visit their spouses when he/she is in a critical condition in a hospital, and other situations of a normal life.

    There is one other important area which I want to add here.

    Imagine a married couple of a man and a woman. The woman becomes pregnant, and dies in childbed. The baby survives and is taken care of by the legal father. The father is one of your good friends, and you have introduced him to the doctor who took care of his wife. Now the surviving man befriends himself with this doctor who took so well care of his sick wife and mother of his child, and finally the two fall in love to each other, move to live together in one home, and raise the child together, which then grows up, with the two men as his/her parents. Since now both are good friends of yours, they spend time with you and your family and the little child gets to know you as a good uncle.

    Eight years later, the legal father of that child dies, say from an automobile accident, and then what happens? The children is declared to be an orphan, and is taken away from the man which she/he knows as a father. This father by social relations is also being kicked out of his apartment, since without being recognized as relative of the original tenant, he can’t inherit the tenancy contract.

    All this mishap because you denied your good friend the right to establish the legal bounds which could have secured both the continuing of the family life, even if only with one surviving father, and he loses even his home.

    Is that good friendship?

    Think about it.

    Reply
    1. There is no such thing a a gay “spouse”, It’s called a partner for a reason and not a husband or wife . . .

      Reply
  28. Evan, rather than copy and paste the words of someone else’s bigoted opinions of gay marriage, I want you to do some thing on your own WITHOUT relying on others.

    Can you think of 3 reasons to be against gay marriage that AREN’T based on religious belief?

    Reply
  29. I will gladly bring 4 reasons up to the table. . .

    First, I want you to know that I am not bigoted and accept that they are regular people too! Homosexuality is a abomination. I sin, you sin, we all sin. That certainly does not mean that sin is good in any possible way. Homosexuals have a mental illness that makes them be attracted to the same sex. We all need to repent from our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts as our savior. Remember that no action means no faith.

    1. Marriage is the means of procreation, indicating that intercourse between a man and woman is ‘natural’. Since a man cannot become pregnant, sex with another male is by definition, unnatural. Gays get married for the sexual satisfaction and not for the need to reproduce.

    2. Children need stable and healthy environments to grow up in. Which means a father and mother are both required.

    3. It lightens the gene pool.

    4. I know you said without religion. But this country was founded on the words of The Bible. All I am going to say is that you go read Jude 1:7.

    Reply
  30. Evan, thank you for replying.

    1) I must remind you, however, that marriage has nothing to do with child-rearing. Marriage, at least as its described in my country, is “the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others”. It’s says nothing of children who may or may not become the product of the marriage.

    To that, I would add marriage is not just for raising children, as there are loads of married hetero people that cannot conceive children, are beyond the child-bearing age, or simply don’t want children in their marriage. Is a 65 year old woman marrying a 72 year old man obligated to raise children because that’s what you believe marriage is for? I don’t think so, therefore I don’t believe that marriage is done so for the sake of bearing children.

    2) You’re still going on about children. Again, marriage has nothing to do with raising children.

    3) When you say “lightens the gene pool”, I know you’re still referring to the children, a non-starter.

    But then again, as a species, there are 7 billions humans on earth; of which roughly 3.5 billion of the opposite sex. From that, you can write off 1 billion that are too young, another 1 billion that involved with someone, and 1.5 remaining eligible individuals to mate and copulate with.

    What this mean that the gene pool is in no threat from being too small, not when there are 7 billion people out there.

    4) I don’t believe your country was founded on the bible, because if it were, 1Tim 2:12 would be a unconstitutional. Same with those slavery passages; you guys did make a big deal about ending slavery, so you can’t be a nation founded on the bible if you’ve outlawed slavery.

    That, and raising children is a sin – Lev 12:6-7

    Picking and choosing out of a bronze age book is no way to forge a country. You country was built on the sacrifice of those who left religious bigotry for a better life, not on the purported execution a dissident.

    Reply
    1. Please correct me if I am wrong but you said “I don’t believe ‘YOUR’ country was founded on the bible”

      Implying that you don’t live here and that you shouldn’t be talking SH**!

      I said it perfectly up there “Gays get married for the sexual satisfaction and not for the need to reproduce.”

      Marriage is for children, and odds are your “65 year old woman & 72 year old man” probably already had children by that age. Gays will never be able to have children. Marriage is between a man and a woman (who can have children, unless for barren or menopause.

      The Bible says that “Children are great! Have the most children you can have! They are my gift to you!”

      Religious bigotry? Puh-leas! It’s called the absolute truth, and the more brainwashed people we have in this world (like you) the more the absolute truth becomes wrong. . . It’s sickening, you’re repulsive.

      Go read this: http://www.comereason.org/soc_culture/soc060.asp because you’re wasting my time and I don’t want to talk anymore. . .

      Reply
  31. Being is only a sin in your eyes because you like being told how to live!

    The reason marriage was put into the bible was because there was a time when people wanted to marry or be with other species!

    Religious people never like to talk about this but it’s true, they need to tell people to stay away from animal’s!

    Like I said in the beginning the bible is out dated and has no place being referenced today!

    See what I hate about religious people is they pick and choose what part of the religion they want to follow! In my opinion either you believe in all of it or none of it!

    Reply
    1. You said “the reason marriage was put into The Bible” Implying that someone else wrote it. The Bible was written before the creation of all of us to tell us how to live. . DUHH

      This is what I hate about atheist’s. . . .

      Reply
  32. Dear EvanR, presenting marriage as a “stable environment” is a daring proposition. How many marriages are actually divorced? I’d say at least one third.

    While the family is often the last resort and refuge from serious distress, like being thrown out of a job by a greedy boss or being kicked out of one’s the house or apartment by a greedy bank or landlord, or even earlier for children being harrassed in school or other get-togethers with peers of their age.

    But family as being an economic unit also creates coercion and incursion into the privacy of its members. Children are being beaten and some are raped by their parents, they suffer traumata from the coercive relations between their parents or their separation, with and without continuing to share the common home, with and without a formal divorce.

    That’s the grim reality. While there are marriages which conform to your description, as a general rule it is idealistic pipe-dream.

    On the other hand, there do exist stable families where the adults in it are a couple with the same sex, two men or two women. You deny those real families the necessary legal framework for being being able to provide a secure and stable refuge for adults and children.

    And no, marriage is not about procreation. Sexual intercourse is in no way dependent on previously establishing a legal bound between the partners, in many cases it simply happens. And children are born in families where the biological father is different from the legal and social father. (In one of Honoré de Balzac’s short stories, a man comes home, finds his wife with her lover, charges against him, while she tries to hold him back: “Don’t kill the father of your children!”)

    Marriage is primarily about establishing a line of heritage passing real estate and other property from male to male, breaking the natural matrilineal kinship. The classic Greek tragedy witnesses this transition from a matrilineal to a patriarchal society. And the judeo-christian Old Testament is the manifesto of the victorious patriarchy. Remember the 10 Commandments? No. 10 proclaimes male ownership of immovable (real estate) and movable property, and lists the wife among the movable property: “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.” (Exodus/2nd book Mose 20:17, King James bible)

    Marriage establishes the husband of a wife as the legal father of all children which his wife gives birth to during the legal existance of the marriage (and possibly up to nine months after its end), independently of being the biological procreator or not, and those children as his legel heirs.

    So, marriage and family is a mixed bag, and does not always conform to your idealistic prescriptions.

    Coincidently, I watched last night Woody Allen’s latest film “Blue Jasmine”. While it is fictional, it is all too real. The title figure Jasmine is married to a financial crook of the Bernie Maddof type, who has a son from a previous marriage. When she finally finds out that he has many sexual relations with other women, she denounces him to the FBI which leads to his arrest and suicide in prison. Losing all the houses, jewels, money, everything, the finally flees to find a refuge with her sister Ginger in San Franciso, who leads a working class life (here you see the positive side of the family as last resort), and whom she held in contempt while leading her upper class life based on cheat. Actually both sisters had been adopted by their parents, and thus are not blood kin. Jasmine also despises Ginger’s male partners. For the rest of the story go see the film for yourself. It might be a sobering experience.

    Reply
    1. Family is all about the ups and downs and how you deal with them and sort things out. I would know, my parents got divorced when I was 14 (I am now 22). We had to move from the house I grew up in because my mom couldn’t afford it herself. I had to change school districts. I hit rock bottom for a while. I skipped school, I had suicidal thoughts, I did many things that I regret to this day. I found God and am happy for who I am and what I stand for.

      Otherwise, TMI. How long did it take you to type all of that? I didn’t ask for a passage. . . hahaha

      Reply
  33. Observer7, I found your comment late Nov. 12th insightful into the relationship of marriage and the concept of family. To your hypothetical situation, I would like to add that if the doctor was a woman and they never married, it would be an equally devastating scenario. This reinforces my opinion that taxes, benefits and inheritance should not be tied to marriage. If marriage wasn’t bonded with those things, same-sex partners would be able to pursue their lifestyle without feeling the need for acceptance by going through the marriage ceremony. Also, what if the doctor and father were just close friends and exhibited a brother love instead of a sexual one? Should that result in any different outcome? I strongly feel that sexual attraction is a poor instrument for prescribing taxes, benefits, etc. Also, to your recent comment, the increased acceptance of divorce has also worked to dilute the permanence of marriage (or sanctity, if you will). Since marriage is no longer viewed as seriously as it once was, it doesn’t have the same commitment to family stability that it once did. Even the government should recognize this. Also, the abuse you mentioned is not exclusive to married couples.
    EvanR, you seem to be basing your argument exclusively around the biblical ideals of marriage, where the government includes the other items I mentioned above. This is the crux of the matter. What is the definition of marriage? The Bible defines it one way, the government defines it another, while the population occupies some gray area in-between. I would suspect that the majority of the homosexual community doesn’t want to get married to fit the ideals laid out in the Bible – they want the government to recognize their civil union. The government doesn’t say that homosexuality is wrong, so why should the U.S. deny them the ability to inherit property, file jointly on their taxes and the other inherent benefits of their cohabitation? I’m not denying that the Bible disagrees with homosexual sex. The Bible also says that adultery and promiscuity is wrong often in the same passage, but there is no governmental law against those things. To address one of your other statements, I think the country was founded upon biblical ‘principles’ – though not exclusively. The U.S. history has many influences with the Bible being a part of it, but not to the exclusion of all others. To limit the freedoms of homosexuals based on the Biblical sin is forcing values and standards upon people who may not be Christian. This violates the separation of church and state by promoting one religion ahead of another. From a biblical view, Christianity is NOT intended to be forced upon anyone. Forcing these values does not bring about true repentance. True repentance comes from accepting the free gift of Christ’s atonement, believing in His loving act of salvation and turning away from sin through that faith in Jesus. God doesn’t want obedience because one has to, but because one wants to. And finally, I don’t need or want the government to legislate my religion. With everything else they screw up, I doubt they’d get it right. More to the point, it’s not the government’s responsibility to promote my Christianity for me. It is MY responsibility.

    Reply
  34. Really this just comes down to do you believe and follow a god! I personally don’t cuz I have never found one bit of evidence to back up the theory!

    When it comes to proof that falls on the believers hand to present evidence that can proven! Until that happens it’s just a load of BS!

    These and the people giving me guidelines on how to live drove me away from religion!

    Prove me wrong! God doesn’t exist!

    Reply
    1. It’s not BS. None of us know for sure that God exist. You have to believe. It’s called having faith, which is a wonderful thing. . .

      Reply
  35. Faith! What a load of crap! Faith Is Just A concept that cons people into believing in something that can’t be proven! It’s brilliant!

    Sell a load of crap to a bunch of people, and never have to accountable for the things you say or do!

    Nobody and I mean nobody lives their life based on faith!

    Would you buy a house without seeing it just cuz I told you it was a good deal? Would you marry someone without ever meeting them just cuz I said you would be a perfect match? No! Even if I said have faith in me? No!

    Your religious ideas are just a complete con job designed to take our money control our thoughts and force us to live a certain way!

    You People Are Truly Pathetic!

    Reply
    1. How inconsiderate and rude! You are pathetic person. I don’t even want to go down this road again. First off, every single person who dedicates their lives to a god (me Jesus Christ) lives in faith, which is a lot if you ask me. Second, you are probably the rudest person I’ve talked to in years. You need to listen to yourself, you are basically calling me and everybody else who have faith, morons. You need an album of Casting Crowns. You are very arrogant and prideful. I can assure you that giving Jesus your heart and soul and acknowledge him as your savior is all to true. You are stubborn, cold and hard. I see you going no where but hell, which is very sad. You should come to heaven with me and everyone else who believes in the “scam” called Jesus Christ. . .

      Reply
  36. Inconsiderate! I was being nice just stating facts which gives your kind of people all kinds of problems!

    In order to go to he’ll you my first believe in heaven and there for god!

    None of it exists! If it does then show me the way to it without me having to die first!

    Reply
    1. “What a load of crap!”
      “Your religious ideas are just a complete con job”
      “You People Are Truly Pathetic!”
      “None of it exists!”
      “show me the way to it without me having to die first!”
      “your kind of people”

      This crosses the line on so many levels. But wait, oh you Brian, you were just being “nice” and stating the facts.

      1. Load of crap/Con job/Non-existent. This is very inconsiderate when you think about it! You are making fun of religion that billions of people follow everyday, and while you might not agree with it, I do. So you can at least learn to accept it because guess why? It ain’t going away!!

      2. Truly pathetic/Your kind of people. So this is what “being nice” is these days? Wow our country is brainwashed! This is not funny. What the hell do you mean by “your kind of people”??? I am human, you are (cough-homo) sapien, we all are human. I am not any different than anyone else in this world, you aren’t either. We all are the same and equal! Your a poor little a**wipe. . . I mean that in the “nicest” way possible 😉

      Reply
  37. Brian washed! That’s a person that is told over and over what to do, when to do it, how to do it! Sounds a lot like religion to me, here’s a bible now read it and what it says!

    What I want to know from you is, why do you think it’s ok to pick and choose what parts of the bible you can follow and what parts are not important to you?

    This is where you people lose all respect and is the reason why people like me stop taking your BS seriously!

    Don’t tell me you follow the bible and your religion then omit parts of it from your life!

    You Either Believe In All Of It or none of it!

    I’m still waiting for that proof any of this is real!

    Reply
  38. Evan, the weakest part of any religion is their reliance on “souls”.

    Since there never has been any concrete scientific evidence to support the existence of souls, there is no reason to believe that they exist. By extension, since souls cannot be proven to exist, the fallacy that souls “go places” after death is unsubstantiated. Heaven and hell, and even purgatory, have little to support them.

    Anecdotal stories of people suffering oxygen starvation aren’t evidence of heaven or hell, they are stories of people suffering oxygen starvation.

    Neuroscience has combed over the brain and found nothing that resembles a soul, so it can be within us. If the soul is immaterial, then it can’t exist in our material universe. And don’t come at us saying we’ve ‘hardened our heart to jesus’. That’s impossible, as the heart is an organ for pumping blood about the body. It’s ridiculous to think otherwise.

    Finally, don’t lie and say the bible was written before humans existed. Much of archaeology and paleontology will find objects far older than you bible. In fact, the Hindus have a holy book (the vedas) that predates your bible by centuries, so clearly there were humans long before the bible was written. Even older, the pyramid texts, beating the bible by over 3 thousand years.

    One last thing. When I was your age, I had “opened my heart to jesus” too, but he never showed up. In fact, the day i gave up was the day I found Luke 9:59-62 , the part of the bible where jesus said my father was worthless.

    I could have been with jesus if he wasn’t so insulting.

    Reply
    1. “I could have been with Jesus if he wasn’t so insulting.”

      You’re not supposed to let others decide whether or not you believe in Christ or not, it really show that you have “faith.” If you ask me, you don’t even care about God and probably want to go to the lake of fire. I feel bad for you, truly. . . .

      Reply
      1. When someone you’ve barely met is telling you your father is worthless and not worth respecting, then what good are they as a “god of compassion”?

        Why should I believe them? Why should I listen to them? If they’re wrong about my father, they could be wrong about other things too.

        Reply
  39. So I ask you a q’s about following your religion and you run and hide! What a coward!

    Reply
    1. Brian, here’s my email: [email protected]

      Don’t you dare call me any more names, I was having serious family issues.

      All scientists are full of shit (unless of course they do in fact know the truth)! The whole universe is only 6,000 years old, The Bible does not say this abruptly. Rather, God gives us his birth date (Christmas). The universe was not here before God.

      Reply
      1. Because it is.

        Reply
        1. How can you explain The Lunar Dust Theory then? This will be great. . . .

          Reply
          1. Reply
            1. ^ That. Also, explain dinosaurs. Explain tectonic plates. Explain the Grand Canyon. Ancient Greek and Egyptian history even span beyond 3,000 years. I mean, come on.

              That aside, The Bible was pieced together after what a bunch of men agreed on after the first Nicean Council. They dismissed several accounts depicting interactions with Jesus Christ, including that of Mary Magdalene (maybe because she was a woman?), who is featured many times in the scriptures, especially just before/after the Crucifixion. They funneled it down to just St. Mark, St. Matthew, St. Luke, and St. John, probably because they all sounded the most similar. There’s so much that we weren’t allowed to know, and humanity is still piecing together what was lost in the burning of the Library of Alexandria.

              The Bible also explains nothing of far eastern or North American cultures/creeds. In addition, nobody seems to want to talk about how slavery was in the bible these days, despite it being talked about in the scriptures FAR more often than homosexuality. In short, what you’re arguing is completely arbitrary.

              I’m not belittling you, I’m just encouraging more open thinking. That aside, GMAuthority.com was not founded to discuss creationism, civil rights, or anything outside of cars.

              Reply
              1. Dinosaurs never roamed the Earth. This might sound crazy, but Jesus put the fossils of them in the ground during the seven days of making. The Grand Canyon? It’s there because God wanted it to be, he put the glaciers on Earth to form it.

                Slavery was different back then. You still were a servant, but you weren’t treated like a POS. It was basically a job for people, they got paid too! You could buy your freedom back as well. You could have a family and have a choice whether or not you’d want to split up.

                Reply
                1. Irrationality is all I’m reading. In this free-thinker’s forum, “Jesus put the fossils in the ground,” just doesn’t cut it. I don’t think Jesus Christ was trolling us. The Bible didn’t mention anything of Him putting any dino bones or glaciers in the ground, or his Father, or the Holy Spirit. But because of Leviticus, suddenly everyone knows what’s right and wrong? Again, ARBITRARY, like when we celebrate Christmas, or when All Saints Day was established (to eclipse pagan holidays, in case you didn’t know).

                  To say nothing of the other points I made above.

                  Here’s something to chew on. The crude oil we use… made from dinosaur bones… made from prehistoric plants and algae… takes in most cases over 100,000 years to form (last I checked that’s far longer than the claimed 3,000 years you base your thinking on) — after they’ve been buried deep enough in soil with enough pressure to form, which could take much longer. There are ways to accelerate the process in labs, but they don’t outright replicate the painstakingly slow process of nature. Let me know if you would like more examples if you aren’t bold enough to find them yourself.

                  Reply
                  1. That’d be the power of Jesus Christ! He knew exactly what we needed to survive and thrive on Earth! He created oil and put it on/inside his Earth!

                    Reply
                    1. Maybe. Where exactly do you get your information? Or rather, who feeds you this stuff? I’ve seen no cited or sourced information. Which arbitrary scripture describes Jesus putting fossils, and oil in the earth? I’m familiar with water into wine, but I don’t think I’ve read anything about fossils and oil. Where do I download the expansion pack?

                      Reply
  40. The universe is only 3000 years old! You really think this? And you think I’m a retard

    Reply
    1. I gave you my email, I still have yet to see a new inbox message. .

      This will be my last message on this post in any size, shape or form. Please email me if you want to talk or you can “run and hide and be a coward!”

      Reply
  41. Family issues I’m sorry for that, but I care about that as much as I care about those people in the Phillipines!

    One day you will understand that the world doesn’t revolve around you!

    Reply
  42. @everybody: please stop calling names and abusive comments. It does not help the discussion.

    @EvanR:
    Having experienced what you tell about your own paternal family, you should really know that a marriage between a woman and a man does not in and by itself creates a stable environment. I agree with you that children need a stable environment, and I am compassionate with your own experience of a very unstable one. And now I do even understand less why you want to take such a stable environment and legal protection away from those many families which have a same-sex couple on the adult end of that family! You know from your own experience, that by having a couple composed by a male father and female mother as parents does not in and by itself creates that stability and cocoon of protection and mutual trust. There is no guarantee, in neither way.

    Your claim that “Marriage is the means of procreation” is even more strange. Signing a piece of paper creates new life? No, it requires sex. And sexual intercourse takes place completely independent of that formality of a marriage. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Even the president who claimed “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” knows it.

    On the other hand, there are many married couples who do not have any children at all. Do you plan, in order to fill your ideological tenets with life, to force such husbands to rape their wives? Put her in a cell for nine months in order to prevent an abortion? Not even the most brutal dictatorships like the Hitlerite in Germany or the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia have dared to establish such a brutal regime.

    No, marriage is not about procreation, it is about property. The first reason for the institution of marriage is to establish a patrilineal descendancy of inheritance of immovable and movable property, by declaring the husband as the father of every child his married wife my bear out during the legal existence of the marriage.

    Then, and that is today the most important aspect, especially for working class people, that the formal act of marriage provide a number of important mutual rights and obligations, necessary for the stability which you require for children to grow up without disruptions. But you deny those protective rights to all those children which happen to live with same-sex parents (which in most cases came together after those children were born).

    A word on your usage of religions proclamations — all my respect for religious people, who practice their religion and adulation for gods as a distorted or alienated form of recognising the actual unity of mankind despite all the class antogonisms which actually tear the existing human society apart.

    Remember that the “Pilgrim Fathers” who came on the “Mayflower” to settle in North America, fled from religious prosecution, fighting for freedom of religion, against being forced to live just one form of belief which the rulers of their European country wanted to impose on them. They brought with them the principle that everybody should be free to practice his religion in his way, and nobody should try and force their own view onto others (this freedom of religion does, of course, imply also the right to give up any religious beliefs). Your utterances on this subject make me think that you fall back to that religious despotism which those immigrants fled when they set out to settle in North America.

    You are also free to disdain all the scientific research which lifted mankind from the caves to the information age we live in today, but you have no right to force your ignorance on others and to obstruct education and research.

    As to the word of got, let me end with this story of my uncle X. who was a preacher of an evangelical denomination, and who one morning told his wife that god has spoken to him in the night that they had to go to Brasil to pass HIS word there among the German speaking communities in the Southern part of Brasil. Said my aunt: “My dear husband, I laid all night on your side but I have heard no voice speaking”. The “word of god” always requires a human being as his interpreter, and you know in many cases that personal, or caste, or class interest dictate what this interpreter claims to be the “word of god”. Remember that all warring parties in all wars always claimed that “god is on our side” — there must have been a multitude of gods pertaining to a multitude of warring nations.

    You see this in the Christian Bible itself — the “Book of Revelation”, which is a circular letter to communities in what is today Turkey, shows that it is one of the oldest texts in the “New Testament”, or even the oldest, when the writer admonishes “the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan”, thus showing that these communities were still a plebeian sect of Jews who feared the return of the Roman Empire Nero (the animal 666, Hebraic numerals meaning “Nero Cesar”), while in the evangile of St. John “the Jews” are being held responsible for the crucifixation of this Jesus, with the Roman colonial administrator nearly being forced into this act without really wanting it, so that this text must have been written (or found its final form after having been copied and rewritten so often) in a time when christendom had become the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Bible texts evolved over time, before they were codified late in the first millenium.

    Think about the facts. Facts are stubborn things, you might get hurt when you ignore their existence and hit them with your head.

    Reply
  43. @EvanR writing “Dinosaurs never roamed the Earth. This might sound crazy, but Jesus put the fossils of them in the ground during the seven days of making.”

    You should at least try to remain consistent with your “sources” — read the first verses of the Gospel of Matthew or Luke 3:23-38 who give different accounts of the about the genealogy of Jesus, the former describing it over 41 generations from Abraham, the latter over 76 generations from Adam, the supposed first human being created on the last of the “seven days of making”. So your Jesus could not have been present during those “seven days of making” or even be the actual creator, being reported as a descendant many generations down the line from there.

    I respect your right to believe the most silly things at your discretion, but just don’t try to force others to conform to your beliefs; just don’t erect a dictatorship.

    This shall be my last contribution to this issue. Let’s wind it down. As Manolis Katakis wrote:

    “That aside, GMAuthority.com was not founded to discuss creationism, civil rights, or anything outside of cars.”

    I just think that the GM management did the right thing to extend marriage benefits to same-sex couples. Amen.

    Reply
  44. These are the type’s of people who are in charge of setting policy in this country!

    Reply

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