Lately, there’s been quite the raging discussion on our GM Forum about Pontiac, with some members being all for the return of the brand while others, well, not so much. So let’s put it to a vote, shall we?
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Lately, there’s been quite the raging discussion on our GM Forum about Pontiac, with some members being all for the return of the brand while others, well, not so much. So let’s put it to a vote, shall we?
By Alex Luft
GM Authority Executive Editor with a passion for business strategy and fast cars.
Comments
No. So many brands is one part of what got GM in the mess that it was in. Now that GM is on a straight path with only 4 brands to concentrate on, this is the path they need to be on. I would also gonsonfar as to say they need to get rid of the GMC brand too. With Cadillac, Chevrolet, and Buick; General Motors could present their entire product line. It was sad to see such an iconic car company like Pontiac go, but lets face it, this is why companies like Hyundai are doing better than GM. Because they are only concentrating on 2 brands. Maybe years from now, we could see the revival of the Pontiac brand, but it’s not a good thing at this moment. Me, I’d rather see Oldsmobile make a comeback.
Well Pontiac was not only GM’s Mopar but also America’s BMW as well, the coolest cars they ever made was the Trans-AM, GTO, Lemans, Tempest, and the Grand-Prix so yes they need to bring Pontiac back so they can compete with Mopar and take on the Scat Packs and Hellcats.
No.
GM has no idea how to execute it correctly to make it successful.
No. Maybe if some other company brought it back then I would be ok with it, but then I wouldn’t care for it because it’d be with them and compete with GM. I just don’t see GM having an easy time spreading out the money evenly to all the brands with 5 of them.
No, we’ve moved on.
Uhmm…no we really haven’t asshole.
@PontiaAddict: I LOVE your on-line name! I’m just as addicted to Pontiac as you are, despite the passage of nearly six years since Pontiac was murdered. For we Pontiac fans, “moving on” is absolutely the LAST thing we should do; to “move on” would be to cement Pontiac’s fate. As a Pontiac fan, I CONTINUE to DEMAND–as a consumer–that GM revive Pontiac. For as long as GM refuses to revive Pontiac, I will refuse to purchase any new GM vehicle. We need to STAY in GM’s face.
Calm down weirdos
Pontiac is the best and number☝
Amen brother, not only Pontiac was GM’s Mopar but also America’s BMW as well.
Yes Pontiac,The Firebird,The Trans-Am,GTO,Formula and Oldsmobile and 4 4 2,and it should divest itself of any union ownership UAW,Caw or otherwise and Govt ownership and SAIC(RedChinese)ownership.
GM should just produce some “Pontiacs” under the Chevy brand, but they won’t. Need to wait until a few inflexible people retire I guess.
No, I think it’s too late for a brand revival. As much as I’d like to see a GTO, Bonneville or Firebird, GM has its hands full just managing the surviving 4 brands in the US.
Pontiac should have been “demoted” to a niche nameplate with one, maybe two models, and sold in a combined Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealership. For example, they could have kept the G8, but discontinued the Pontiac division, keeping only a small group of engineers to focus on one, maybe two, models. For example, the G8 could have been a Bonneville sedan while a coupe version could have been the GTO.
Right now, the best we can hope for is some serious niche-filling Chevrolets and cross our fingers that GM does the right thing with those.
That’s a great idea, but there would be several factors holding it back:
– Ever since turning divisions into brands, GM no longer has engineers devoted to specific vehicles or brands. So those several engineers, unfortunately, wouldn’t be able to focus on specific models… Unless they use the extremely rare Corvette model.
– The most effective use of investments/funds, especially for low volume brands, is to create global brands. Pontiac would be limited in scope due to its “regionality”.
Personally, I’m a fan of creating the somewhat-talked-about Passion brand within Chevy, somewhat previewed by the 130 and 140. What are your thoughts on that?
Alex – I’m not sure Chevrolet needs a “Passion” sub-brand when the existing RS and SS monikers already exist. Chrysler has separated SRT into its own “brand” to do the performance versions of existing models, with the exception of the flagship Viper, which will be unique to SRT.
Passion also reminds me of one of the Smart ForTwo model – which happens to be the opposite of passion.
I would rather have seen GMC killed and replaced by a sub-brand that I like to call Chevy Black Tie. A piano-black bow tie logo would be very distinctive and GM could dress up the same Chevy SUVs and trucks to make the big bucks. It could even keep the Denali badge: Tahoe Black Tie Denali.
Holden could have been the Pontiac analog down under with rear-drive platforms shared between Holden, Chevrolet and Pontiac. It’s also possible that the flexible ATS platform could have been shared with Opel/Vauxhall, Holden, Chevrolet and Pontiac, which would have cut costs dramatically – similar to VW’s new MQB platform that will underpin dozens of different models over many brands.
I just think that is all out of the cards now and that GM simply can’t afford these vanity investments for the foreseeable future.
GMC has and has a greater percentage of sales increase than cheby. Why kill off the most profitable division? Duh! That information was given to fleet buyers at a pre model year show from GM reps! Personally I havent purchased a GM product since they dropped Pontiac. That is two vehicles! I a have sold all GM brands except Caddy & Saturn. Chevy is just plain, plain non exciting, Buick lately has become overpriced chevys. There is nothing in between the two. Dear customer you have two choices plain vanilla or over priced cheese cake.
Vanilla sells. In mass numbers. Hence, the point of a mainstream mass-market brand. And Chevy design, tech, and drivability is the perfect balance of vanilla and “spunk”.
By the way… I’d challenge the “GMC is the most profitable division” concept. Most profitable to who? To dealers, or to GM? If it’s more profitable to dealers, it’s irrelevant as far as GM is concerned.
GMC are no more expensive than comparable Chevy counterparts… and they cost no less to build.
On top of that, I’d strongly challenge the notion that Chevy is “not exciting” and that Buicks are overpriced Chevys. Have you driven a Buick lately… or seen one in person? A Buick is to a Chevrolet as a Lexus is to a Toyota. Let’s call a spade a spade here, shall we?
For me Buick should’ve been the one to go not Pontiac.
the challenger replacement is gonna be unique to srt aswell
In my heart, Yes, I’d like to see Pontiac back. A retro looking GTO the same size as the Cruze but with the Regal GS powerplant, a Retro Trans am, and a return of the Solstice would be great. I’d also like to see a return of the Grand Prix as the Personal Performance Luxury that it was circa ’69 – ’72. Use the Holden Commodore again or what ever replaces it, but call it the Grand Prix, not G8. This is all in my heart.
In my head, I know this would be impractical for GM and completely incompatible with their current plans. None of my above ideas have a strong enough market for them to be profitable at an affordable price point. They would need to be in Buicks $ range, and would cut likely cut into their sales. All of those above ideas can be addressed with current or future offerings. The GTO could be made as a Cruze SS. The Trans Am is already addressed with the Camaro, The Solstice could be replaced with the Code 130 concept. The Grand Prix is addressed with either the upcoming Impala or the Regal GS, depending on which platform you choose. It’s a losing proposition to ressurrect the nameplate and squeeze it in betweem Chevy and Buick price wise, while offering affordable performance that is in direct competition with the Chevy SS program. Bringing it back as anything other than Performance does no one any favors and further hurts the legacy of the brand. NEVER has an entire car brand returned from the grave (Bugatti aside). A Pontiac without performance would be like a zombie – stiff, slow, brian sucking, and begging to be shot.
I don’t want Pontiac back, because GM cannot honor Pontiacs’ performance heritage within the current automotive climate without damaging its own bottom line.
Exactly!
It was a deep tradegy that Pontiac had to die, but now theres no going back.
GM has enough brands to manage already: Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Opel, Vauxhall and Holden … at least. Aren’t there also joint brands that GM is involved with in China?
Yeah, no more sub brands. All we need is another Geo. They need to axe GMC, and let Chevrolet sell all the pickup trucks. As a matter of fact, just ditch the GM nameplate all together and make it Chevrolet and have Buick and Cadillac under them.
They already ditched the GM badge… So you wouldn’t know it’s a GM unless you follow the industry or are an enthusiast.
I just feel that whenever you ask someone who bought say a Hyundai over a Chevy, the most common answer is “Because I won’t by a GM car.” To me, that says a lot about how Americans feel towards GM. Back to the main point though, no Pontiac should R.I.P. for now. GM has turned a 180 but still has a ways to go to change their overall perception.
I think Hell yeah to bringing bank Pontiac, sure there are alot of GM brands, but who cares. My first car was a 2000 Grand Prix GTP it was great for a new car. I took out my governer and got a few speeding tickets but who hasn’t. And and are we forgeting about the trans Am and Firebird, hello we need american made super cars to compete with those damn European and their lame Posche, Audi, Lambo, Ferrari, all we have basically The Corvette and Possibly the Mustang.n LETTTS DO ITTTTTTTTTTTt
Amen to that brother
GM doesn’t even know what to do with Buick and GMC. Pontiac would confuse things even more.
I think it’s kind of too late now. Although I’m not convinced that killing Pontiac was a good idea in the first place, I think it wouldn’t have been a worthwhile idea unless GM has concrete ideas what they want Pontiac to be beyond rebadged Chevrolets that are vaguely sporty. (My opinion, incidentally, was that during the bailout, they should have kept Pontiac over GMC, killed anything that was a rebadged Chevy, and raided the most desirable vehicles from Saturn and added them to the Pontiac subbrand.) I think that Pontiac would have been the ideal niche for both what I would call “Mazda-killers” which is to say the small-but-fun to drive category. It would also be the place to put the small CUVs that they seem to be afraid to add to Chevy (the Captiva being one in mind, and the Granite concept could easily be a Vibe replacement.)
Pontiac and Saturn were ideal subbrands for young buyers and I still don’t think they’ve quite made up for that loss yet. Saturn, on the other hand… should NOT have been saved because GM screwed up by creating entry level cars, building brand loyalty, and letting it rot for a decade without adding any compelling mid-level Saturn vehicles to upgrade to.
Killing GMC would be as bad as killing the Escalade. Keeping GMC makes good business sense. This works for any product. Build it for the price of the Chevy and sell it for the price of the Cadillac.
Well considering that there are plenty of GM vehicles that are not sold in North America, it should be considered as a captive import company for cars such as the Opel Astra and Corsa, and the Holden Commodore, and even design vehicles off the Epsilon 2 platform for the mid-sized market, that is not a badge engineered Opel Insignia, as we all know is the Buick Regal. It would be a good brand for the age group of 20 some odds on that matter. It would also create a larger portfolio to compete on various markets in much of the same way that GM’s luxury arms Cadillac and Buick compete in the performance and entry level luxury markets respectively giving buyers choice on more Asian designed options such as the Chevy Cruze or the Sonic or German designed Astra and Corsa and bring back the Commodore on N.A. shores. The only problem I see is that it doesn’t really fit the brand it self, in saying that I mean that the overall look of the Pontiac grille and the logo wouldn’t fit on the Astra or Corsa. It’s worth considering cause GM has alot of world class cars they could bring here under a new flag, and considering how well Pontiac sold within N.A. specifically in Canada where I live, it is worth consideration, but frankly I don’t think the vehicles would fit the brand.
Yes I want it back and agree with what Tyler just said; no I don’t think GM should bring it back, but yes I do think GM should focus on revitalizing all it’s existing brands for world domination… Like someone said above GM’s brands are way more than Chevy, Buick, GMC and Caddy; when you are struggling to maintain all your brands world wide it’s not a time to add additional brands; that said where the heck is Pontiacrulz, good grief he would have a field day in here.
Hell yes. Dump Buick if you have or better yet split up chevy! The last two vehicles have been non GM since the mindless people at the top dropped Pontiac. It is so easy to sell against cheby! GM you cars a boring!
Buicks are to much $ for what you get. There are better products on the market than Buick for less money. Buick styling is not exciting. Buick vehicles are a notch about cheby in styling. We need something with excitement!
Exactly mate
@ Solotworacer: Say something bad about Buick again!!! On a serious note, drive a Regal GS before you hate on Buick. Buick by far has a nice lineup and the prices are not bad. There is nothing boring about their styling. I’m glad I purchased a Regal GS!!
On the topic of GMC, considering they make up a third of all GM truck sales, thats just throwing money out the window, GMC could also bring other vehicles that may not fit the overall portfolio of Chevy, such as the 2013 Trailblazer or even bring the Holden Commodore Ute, the Commodore Ute I’ll admit is a strech for GMC but considering the brand as mainly a truck brand it is still an idea. Although having said that, I believe that Chevy could market the Commodore Ute and the trailblazer and also the Chevy Captiva, not the sport that pins the Opel Antara but the new Captiva that has the fascia of the Chevy Sonic, either way there’s still alot of money to be made in GMC it just hasn’t been tapped yet.
My first car was a shit-brown Ford Fairmont and that is the LAST time I will ever own a Ford. I always loved my Pontiacs and I have a Saturn now. I miss both of those brands but lets face it, they had way too many brands going. None of the vehicles seemed to get any real quality attention so the quality in the finished product was not there. I think they are doing a better job with the four they have left but I miss the others.
I am still holding out hope that someday all the octogenarians that keep buying those damn Buicks finally stop buying cars! Maybe then they can start a new brand that makes some kick ass muscle with hot bodies! We can dream!
The Ford Fairmont was literally one of the worst cars Ford ever produced, however it really wasnt worse than its other cars in its segments made by GM and chrysler.
You cannot judge a whole car company by just one of its cars. Especially in an industry and company that has changed so dramatically. You, of all people, should know that.
List of cars made by Ford that are widely accepted to be better than their GM counterparts, even by most people here on GMA:
Fusion
Explorer
Escape
Taurus
Edge
Every hybrid they make.
I also think the focus , edge and F150 are better than GM counterpart but I wont add that since their debatable.
Every auto maker gets judged by one car if it’s not right you lose a customer for life. When thousands of dollars are gone you don’t get a second chance.
Youre right they do, but thats not how it should be. People Change. Companies can to. And ultimately whos the loser, the company or the consumer. If I never buy Hyundai because I had negative experiance with them. and now they come out with the best product in its class, like say the new elantra. As you can see the elantra selling like hotcakes so the company not losing anything by making a great product. But I am, because I am going to go buy an inferior product because I am holding a grudge over something that happened DECADES ago.
And not to mention the likelihood that a different set of people are now running the company, engineering, design, and working on the lines at the plants.
The 80s was a bad decade for just about all manufactures. I admit Ford does make some good looking, popular cars now but I can’t own one. Not just because of the Fairmont either. I grew up with the “you are either a Ford girl or a Chevy girl” for life and that is just the way it is. I realize that I may miss out on the best car in a particular class but I also know what you drive says a lot about a person. I would rather drive a rusted out Chevy truck then ever been seen in a F150!! Kinda makes me feel ill just thinking of driving a F150!! LOL! =) Yep, it is totally old school car snobbery but I am okay with that! =)
I love you.
99VetteGyrl
That is the kind of gyrl you marry and take care of for life!
Double post but heck she is worth it!
I liked this poll. I think they should bring Pontiac and Oldsmobile back. They would be sub brands. Pontiac and Oldsmobile would return once the US government has divested itself of GM. They would return once the other brands are fixed( Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Opel and Holden). They would be regional brands. My reason for their return are many.
1. Chevrolet has too many cars in the showroom covering too many segments. You can put all the features you want on a Chevrolet. It is still a Chevrolet.
2. Buick needs to be fixed as to what it will be. if it is going to be a luxury import fighter, then should be the focus.
These two sub brands would be sold in Buick GMC and Cadillac showrooms.
When Pontiac returns, it will be three to four cars:
Bonneville, Grand Prix, and Firebird and or GTO. They would all be rear drive using an existing GM platform. The styling would be unique to Pontiac. They would be affordable rear drive performance cars for the masses.
Oldsmobile would be three to four cars.:
Ninety Eight, Toronado and Cutlass and possibly Custom Cruiser.
Oldsmobiles niche would be what Cadillac and Buick once were with American style luxury cars with a value on luxury and emphasis on style. The Oldsmobiles except for Cutlass would share interiors as they did the the early to mid 1970’s. The exteriors would be different They could be front or rear wheel drive. The emphasis would be on room, comfort, technology and style. There are no big Buicks anymore. Cadillac does not build cars in this segment anymore. XTS does not count. Oldsmobile would also be the only GM brand with six passenger cars as well.
The reason why I did not say bring back the Eighty Eight too was because of the Chevrolet Impala.
the other reason why I did this too was because Buick and Opel are slowly becoming one globally.
Something to ponder on.
Your ideas aren’t going to work.
There is no such thing as “affordable rear drive performance cars for the masses” anymore. Factors beyond GM’s control have rendered such cars as meaningless and too costly for R&D. Furthermore, gas prices have driven a nail into such large cars for good, PROVIDED they command a premium a’la V-series or AMG series.
“Ninety Eight, Toronado and Cutlass and possibly Custom Cruiser.
Oldsmobiles niche would be what Cadillac and Buick once were”
You mean bring back Olds only to make massive body-on frame, leafsprung, landu-roofed, poorly built, gas-guzzling cars that nobody wants anymore?
Why would you want to bankrupt GM like that?
“There are no big Buicks anymore.”
Because the market demand for full size cars has all but been crushed into insignificance.
“Cadillac does not build cars in this segment anymore. XTS does not count”
It does count, as the XTS is only in that segment to mop up whatever handful of consumers who want a full size car. The XTS is being shopped about for fleet sales.
“Oldsmobile would also be the only GM brand with six passenger cars as well.”
I got bad news about the demand for bench seating, chief. It hasn’t been popular since the Regan adminstraion.
I hope all your ideas for GM don’t involve building clones of undesireable land barges from the mid-70’s to the mid-90’s….because those cars are so very far removed from actual consumer demands at present. You might as well pitch your “new” model range to include a free VCR.
They may be cars that you may want, but they aren’t cars that the world wants.
Thank you for misunderstanding everything I said and taking it out of context and your comments. I do not share your views or opinion. You are entitled to your comments and views. I have no desire to debate with you or justify what I meant. You already came to conclusions and opinions that do not line up with what I was saying or implying. You have a nice day.
Oh, so you really ment ‘hybrids all around for everyone’.
No problem, chief.
Have a lovely day.
Fuck you bitch. You wanna be a hater you should make your own god damn car. Oldsmobile and Pontiac had some of the best cars ever made, maybe not the greatest on gas but still great cars. I’ve had an 88 for thirteen years and no matter what you do to it it just keeps on going. But if you just wanna be a total asshole and tear down other peoples idea’s you should probably just keep your mouth shut.
@Landis: First, thank you for advocating Pontiac’s return. Secondly, I tip my hat to you for offering ideas as to the kinds of vehicles that a revived Pontiac might offer. As for me, I’d be content with ANY vehicles Pontiac might offer. On other threads, Pontiac detractors have attacked me for not offering some kind of “plan” or “proposal” regarding how Pontiac might return. As if I could come-up with a better plan than GM itself could.
Ummm, actually most of us could propose better ideas than GM can. GM provides good ideas, but usually waters them down. And they never listen to what the consumers want.
Well, I would think–or at least, I would hope–that GM could come-up with a better plan for Pontiac’s revival than I could. I’m not an auto-industry insider or specialist. I’m just a Pontiac loyalist who wants the brand to return.
Also, you just might be right that GM never listens to what the consumers want. But that would be foolish on its part; it would be foolish on the part of any business. A lot of consumers want Pontiac back. Perhaps GM had better START listening to what consumers want.
Yes as halo brand NOT as a chevy clone
NO ABSOLUTELY NOt
Look GM just got back from bankruptcy, it doesn’t have that kind of money to ressurect the brand. Second, Pontiac’s job is now in Cadillac’s hands. Dna Akerson said it himself, and he wants Cadillac to be America’s BMW. Third, I would in now way resurect another brand at GM, because I still think there’s too many. I really only wanted CHevy and Cadillac to exist, just like Toyota/Lexus and Volxwagen/Audi. This way the money could be spent directly towards them. But you know I am kind of okay Buick is around, especially because of its success in China, which is good for GM. GMC, on the otherhand, I wish was axed. It’s useless. A higher level Chevy pickup truck. It’s a waste of money for GM. I think what’s best is add the Acadia to the Chevy lineup and axe GMC from GM.
Well, the Acadia already exists as a Chevy Traverse — with Chevy styling cues throughout.
And let’s not forget that VW has Audi, SEAT, and Skoda. But the last two don’t really matter, as they have low volumes and don’t contribute much to the bottom line.
Buick should be around because it should be a soft luxury brand, ala Lexus. Caddy is performance luxury, ala BMW. Chevy is mainstream. These three segments/markets account for the most volume in the industry.
Heck, a GMC is no more luxurious than a Chevy — whether we’re talking trucks or crossovers…
Very well said Timothy. This is what I meant in one of my previous responses with the whole “Kia and Hyundai” statement. Don’t forget though, Toyota has always wanted to be like BMW, hence their Scion brand (Them trying to have a MINI style brand), so that does make three brands for Toyota.
But I do agree, GMC needs to be axed!!
OH YAH, DEFINETATLEY! BRNG BAK DA PARRIEZIEANNE FULLSIZE COUPE WIT FULL SIZE POWA!
*nods excitedly*
Tim yes the regal is a great car. I just cant warm up to the grille! I sold Buicks for a while. It handle like a car should handle. That is one of the better cars from GM. A true GT!
Continue with the programs they currently have,pay-off there loans to the Federal Gov.Strive for the highest Quality in the auto industry,develope there powertrains programs to exceed CAFE,EPA fuel mileage standards for the future.They have many hit products right now.They even might downsize a tad more in Europe.
Pontiac was an American Brand it needs to be revived. Chevrolet is a little plain
And Buick a little stuffy. Pontiac sales are going to Kia and VW.
Solotworacer: Yes, the grill on my GS is a little blah. On one hand unwanted to buy this aftermarket grill that has the Buick logo on it, but replaces the waterfall slats with a mesh pattern. On the other hand, I would like to keepnit stock just for the sake of it being the first year car and we don’t know what the future of the GS is.
I think that Buick should have been killed back when Olds was discontinued. Buick is popular in China, not here. Buick could have continued there and Olds take its place since it was around longer. Pontiac should never have been killed in the first place. It’s like Buick slapped Pontiac in the face like it did to Olds. Pontiac needed an overhaul to be successful and if Buick had been kicked to the curb it could have been possible and finally Saturn. I feel it was robbed in so many ways. I liked the idea of having Saturn badged Opels. It was a really cool idea. It’s really a shame. It should be Chevy, GMC, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn. Chevy= all-around, GMC= trucks, crossovers and suvs, Pontiac=sport/performance, Olds= luxury-sport, Saturn=import/new-edge
I have to agree with you, Buick is an old brand, personally I advocate a replacement of Buick with Opel or Vauxhall.
If Buick and Opel merge their core lineups like I think GM is planning to do by moving Opel upmarket, then it will be like the same thing.
Absolutely. I’m a fan of the idea, but don’t think it will happen… GM seems to be as risk-averse as possible nowadays.
Chad, what you said doesn’t make much sense. Buicks are selling well here in the states. Saying Buick slapped Pontiac and Olds in the face is exaggerated. What killed Olds was bad management and what killed Pontiac was the GM restructure plain and simple. And Saturn really? You would rather have a bland looking car over a car manufacturer rich in American automobile history. They started rebadging Opels and selling Chevrolet wannabe looking sports cars as Saturn’s to try and fix the brand image and look where it got them…….one straight ticket to automotive heaven. At the very least back in the day, if GM had gotten rid of “badge engineering” they wouldn’t have gotten in the mess they’re in now. So, in the end, do not blame Buick for Pontiacs demise. Blame the individuals who have us the Montana and Aztec!! Even the mighty G8 couldn’t save Pontiac.
Saturn was one of the reasons for Old GM’s failure. It took away vehicles and sales that should/would have been Chevys… and prevented Chevy from being a global brand (like it is now, thanks to the demise of Saturn).
But rebadging Opels as Buicks puts them in an even bigger problem than rebadged them as Saturns. At least Saturn and Opel are mainstream brands, while Buick is trying to be “luxury” something or other… No real luxury DNA, no success.
I don’t know Alex. When GM eliminated Saturn they also eliminated the Saturn body styles (wagons, small CUVs) and the Saturn buying experience. I’m having trouble seeing how that was a good thing.
And Alex, I have to disagree with you about Buick as well. Buick is filling a gap in the entire industry, and I see this as part of their success. If they compete directly with Lexus they will lose. I’m a prime example of lots of customers that don’t want all of a Lexus or its price, but do want the comfort, quiet, and smooth ride of a Buick. You can’t get that with LTZ Chevy’s. Buicks are a bit heavier all-around, in a good way, as I see it. I remember opening the doors of a Cruze and Verano side-by-side. The Cruze was thin and just did not have quite the solid latching and “thump” of the Verano. The Cruze was more like the other mainstream cars, which is fine. The Verano was a slight step up, but in ways that make it just right. Add e-Assist and these cars are just perfect in my book for the buyer who wants just a bit more comfort and quality, but not pure high end luxury, with its high price. Now if Buick would just fix a certain thing and bring in some hatch variants … for the U.S. market!
From everything I’ve seen so far, the gap you’re referring to is not in need of being filled on a mass scale. That’s to say that there are other (luxury) segments that can deliver the same sales volume but that are a lot more lucrative, due to higher prices.
So while being an “in between” offering may make sense to you in particular, the market is voting with its dollars for high-end luxury goods more often than it does the “tweener” goods.
The body styles eliminated with Saturn should have been Chevys all along. Outside of the Vue and Sky, the rest of the lineup already duplicated Chevy, causing GM to compete with itself and spread marketing, dev, and design costs, rather than focusing on getting its only global brand the product it needs.
Today, I see no reason to re-introduce vehicles like the Sky and Vue as Chevys, with proper updates — of course.
buick shouldnt be a luxury brand just a comfort brand lose some sportiness of the chevy (because chevs are lighter) and add refinement but not price
in my opinion the gs should of been a chev. i see buicks buyers as mature people who dont want/need more power but want/need more refinement like quietness and softer riding susspension. chevy should aim more at younger buyers who want some fun zippieness in thier car aswell as there being less sound insulation (good in city not as good on highway but sacrifices need to be made) and be able to handle a firmer suspension
I don’t think you’ve driven a Regal GS. It’s not slow by any means. And I came from a fully modified street tuned Cooper S, so performance is important to me. You’d be surprised what 295 lb ft of twist will do to a car!!
i know its not slow it’s sporty and fun thats my point it doesn’t belong with buick it should have been a chevy
You forget about the Grand National and T-Type G-bodies of the 80’s. The Regal GS 4 cylinder turbo engine puts out nearly the same power as a V6 turbo from back when hair band ruled the airwaves.
Buick has just started to pick up now that Saturn and Pontiac are gone. I hate Buick and I think every model it had produced in the past 10 years have been bland. You forget that Buick was in the red at the time that Oldsmobile was in trouble. Oldsmobile made a small profit towards the end while Buick was still sinking. I would have given Oldsmobile a chance and withdrew Buick. I don’t think that you appriciate what Saturn started to offer when the new Vue, Aura, Astra and Outlook were released. All had solid styling and was a major improvement over its previous design language. Every brand has its shortfalls. I liked the Aztek for its quirkiness and the Montana looked ok in its first generation. I agree badge engineering hurts a brand but many fans I would like to believe are still steaming over Pontiac demise. I own a 2003 Grand Prix SE and it is one of the best cars I have owned; great styling, power and fuel economy for a V6. If you like Buick Tim, that’s fine but I don’t.
Pontiac turned a complete 180 degrees with the G8 and Solstice. Unfortunately, they got the axe and Buick stayed. Maybe Pontiac should have sold cars in China. Truth is, back in the ’60s and ’70s, Pontiac sold good cars. Then all of a sudden we had the Aztec and the Montana!! Really? Bad management right there. Mini vans and ugly sport ute wannabes is not Pontiac!!! If Pontiac had stayed, it should have been GMC to go. GM is not going to get rid of a brand that is bringing in profits, which is what Buick was doing in China. And I’ve found that most people hating on Buick today are mad because they are becoming successful again. The cars are elegant. I had the gate guards today asking me about my GS. They were really into it.
@ Tim: Thank you for being reasonably sympathetic towards Pontiac. However, regarding Buick’s profitability in China, I’m assuming that the operational word in your sentence is, “was.” It’s my understanding that almost all of GM’s profit last year came from the North American market, not the Chinese market. Interestingly, that was PONTIAC’S market; Pontiac was strong in the US AND Canada. When GM murdered Pontiac, GM made the excuse that Buick wasn’t murdered instead, because it sold well in China. So much for THAT.
Type your message here…Chad: You BET I’m still steaming over Pontiac’s demise. And I dislike Buick because it survived AT PONTIAC’S EXPENSE.
Again, Pontiac is gone due to the idiots who couldn’t properly run GM, NOT because of Buick.
Well, that’s true. Pontiac really SHOULD have been stronger than it was in ’09, what with the legacy and popularity the brand had enjoyed for so long. Still, it’s frustrating that when push came to shove, Buick–a brand that was so weak in the US compared to Pontiac–survived in Pontiac’s place because of Buick’s sales in CHINA. Pontiac was outselling Buick TWO-TO-ONE here.
I’m by no means a Buick fanboy, but I am supporting one of the last American car brands from GM with some heritage. Yes, I’d love to see Pontiac back, but not if we are going to have minivans and pseudo- SUVs. They were on the right path with the G8 and Solstice, but just like a GM move, they finally get it right and then snatch it out of existence. That’s what happened to the Fiero. I use that as an example. But as of right now, I really don’t know where GM is headed. I will be honest, I think they would be much more successful with only 2 or 3 brands.
Yeah, plus at that time Buicks cars really sucked I mean seriously, the Lucerne? I was sad to see such a cool car like the Solstice go.
Hey, the Lucerne was a pretty good car (at least for my neighbors)… and a good seller as well.
Sure, it was mechanically ancient, but it got the job done… the job being a soft, quiet, luxurious ride.
Yeah, I just remember Car & Driver ‘s take in one of their annual car buyers guide, “Such cars nearly killed Buick.” At least it had a V8…..
@alex: Hi. Nice to see you on this thread, too. My question is: Didn’t Buick discontinue the Lucerne as of this year?
@Moanalua Yes, the Lucerne is done.
Yes. I, too, thought that the Solstice was gorgeous. I guess that’s why it was considered a halo car.
Well I can’t say I’m much of a Buick fan myself, personally I think that selling Opel in N.A. would be a much better idea, but with how much heritage Buick holds in the United States and even Canada, I don’t see that happening, I could see it happening in Canada, but the U.S. not so much. Having said that, Opel being sold more so globally then Buick where Buick is selling well in China and the U.S. but Opel has a better chance of being a global luxury brand then Buick cause their global footprint-automotively speaking-is substantially larger as it is sold in more countries then Buick, in this case a fair compromise would be to make Buick nothing more then badge engineered Opel more then they already are with the Verano and the Regal, cause I would love to see a German designed Lacrosse and a full sized Opel flagship. Also what would people think if Buick became a RWD company to compete with the likes of Lexus or Infiniti more so, cause Caddy is trying to compete on the level of the Germans with Audi or BMW or Merc, and by the looks of it isn’t doing all that bad they still have some work to do but there getting there, and Buick/Opel could easily compete with Infiniti and Lexus
Buicks sold better in China. Thats why GM kept Buick. They should have kept Pontiac here and produced Buicks in China. The best of both worlds???
EXACTLY. That’s the very same comment I made on the poll-results thread. I would like to think that GM might have been able to keep Pontiac if Buicks were made available in China only, as that would have lessened intra-corporate competition. I know that Pontiac and Buick weren’t pursuing exactly the same customers, but there surely was SOME overlap. I.e., I’m certain that Pontiac’s sales would have been higher, if Buicks were sold in China only.
Really?
You think Buick and Pontiac sales overlap?
Sorry if this is rude, but are you OK?
@Babersher: Yes, it IS rude. You mean to tell me that if Buick disappeared completely in the US, Pontiac would get ZERO of its customers? ZERO?
I’m certain they would get at least one. Call me crazy, but the cars that head my list are the Buick Encore and the Mazda 3. And if the Vibe were to show up with an appropriate update, it would also be on my list. (Can you guess what these cars have in common?)
Yes, there are people that have been driving efficient, practical cars for most of their lives. And now, as work declines and retirement becomes more in focus, adding a bit of luxury in a small, efficient Buick makes sense, at least to me. If Buick went away then so would the Encore, but I’d welcome a well-done Vibe, just as I’d welcome a Saturn Astra, provided they gave it a good center armrest. (Seems there’s always that one, critical oversight that kills an otherwise good idea…..must be that it wasn’t a sedan.)
Neither you or I can say with certainty the exact number of how many people cross shopped Pontiac and Buick. But while it may not be ZERO, it will definately be a number less than four digits. And that number is so insignificant that it couldnt possibly have brought Pontiac down.
Sorry for being rude but I cant fathom how someone could possibly think that someone would cross shop a lucerne and a g6. And anyways I think pontiac had better products than Buick in 2008 and 2009.
Look I miss Pontiac, it was a great tragedy that it had to die because of GMs incompetence. Pontiac had alot of problems and trust me , Buick was not on the top ten or even the top 50, or even the top 100.
But now we, Pontiac lovers, have to accept that theres no going back, the few segments pontiac and saturn occupied that chevy did not have already been covered by chevy.
Pontiac is dead, get over it.
@Babersher: I’m glad that you’re a Pontiac lover, and yes, Pontiac is obviously dead. However, I am not “getting over it.” And of course, as I said in my post, Buick and Pontiac were very different brands aimed at different buyers. All I suggested is that there would be SOME overlap; I didn’t say there’d be a lot. ANY increase in Pontiac sales obviously wouldn’t have hurt. And, you weren’t reallly being THAT rude; if anything, perhaps MY response was a little rude, too. There remains a lot of demand for Pontiac; look at how many websites you find when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac.” Look at the results of the poll on THIS thread. I think there CAN and SHOULD INDEED be a “going back.” For many Pontiac loyalists, Chevy simply won’t do. I’d like to take this opportunity to ask all Pontiac loyalists who might be reading: DON’T GIVE UP ON PONTIAC JUST YET.
@Moanalua
Look, Pontiac could come back but the same thing will happen that just happened to it in 2009.
GM is not capable of running Pontiac as it should be.
Im not against pontiac ever coming back. But based on current trends and the millenial generation, no one really cares about budget performance anymore.
Pontiac’s revival should always be considered by GM but now know, maybe in 20 years. Maybe at a time when GMs all other brands are profitable and every segment within those brands are filled.
My understanding is that Buick sales are DOWN 12%.
One major problem with Buick, and GM’s other vehicles as well, is FWD!!! Personally, I do a lot of mountain driving, corner carving for leisure, and I prefer FWD over RWD in this application. However, to compete on this front, GM needs some serious RWD contenders. You accelerate in a car, and what happens? The front end lifts. This is fine for a RWD car. FWD, not so much as you lose so much traction and pulling power, 0-60 times suffer. And we all know a cars performance is based totally off 0-60 times by most major automotive rags. Buick’s plan for the most part is not working. They are putting out good products, just not getting the individual’s they want. What Buick needs is a high HP, RWD car. I love this discussion!!!
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
But crank up the “excitement” at Chevrolet with REAL performance packages on Cruze & Malibu. etc. If you want to take a nod to Pontiac then name the packages/sub models appropriately.
Make the sky the new reatta and sell the captiva to every one and sell china’s park avenue here ( its really a G8 )
i had an idea where they sell a chevy pontiac, and a buick oldsmobile, the pontiac would be pretty much a new fiero or solstice, and the olds would be a awesome wagon with a captains chair an alot of luxury, just my idea
NO. It would only take money away from the development programs of their other brands.
There’s a huge demand for full-size rear wheel drive cars that’s being filled by the Silverado Tahoe and suburban and their clones.
The difference being is that Silverado and Tahoe’s aren’t even cars to begin with.
In the GMT-900’s defense, they are infinately better than a Park Avenue. But isn’t that was the Escalade is already doing in 3 different body styles?
The Park Av, and similar land barges, never had a chance. Besides, the S-class pretty much runs the full size car segment nowadays.
Well if Cadillac was to use the Zeta or Zeta II LWB or SWB they could easily compete with the S class, the BMW 7 series and the Audi A8 both on a performance level and a luxury level. We all know what the Zeta can do in terms of handling with the Camaro and it can use the 6.2 from the Corvette so it can compete on power with the S class, and keep a versatile platform in the Generals fold.
They’d easily have a car… but not an effective competitor in the full sized luxury space. Hence, the Omega:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/11/spied-the-first-shots-of-a-cadillac-omega-mule/
Pontiac was the biggest seller for GM. Buick is making cars that I like but most ex-Pontiac owners would not buy them. Pontiac should be the hot rod division. Make all the small cars with 250hp or more turbo engines. Or maybe an American based V6 twin turbo G8. Opel would seem like a more likely idea. This from a PA Chevrolet dealership parts employee.
Pontiac was the third “biggest” seller for GM, behind Chevy and GMC, and sometimes behind Saturn.
But sales volume is irrelevant — and so is the fact that Buick sold less than Pontiac. Buicks are much more profitable since they’re luxury vehicles.
Add to that the fact that most Pontiac owners bought rebadged Chevys (Torrent, G3, G5, G6, SV6) and that the Buick customer is completely different, and my question is what’s the point?
Nice!!!
@alex: I think the point is that for MANY Pontlac loyalists, Chevy simply isn’t going to do, regardless of how similar Chevys were to Pontiacs. You wouldn’t tell someone to dump his girlfriend, and accept her twin sister as a substitute. For Pontiac loyalists like me, it’s simply GOT to be a PONTIAC. And sales volume IS relevant in that it’s an indication of MARKET DEMAND.
I’m not looking for a rehash of the discussion that’s taking/took place in the forum, but market demand doesn’t mean squat unless that market can be served profitably. In other words, profitability is the bottom line, not sales volume or market demand.
GM can sell 10,000 Buicks a month that contribute $500,000 to net profit… or GM can sell 30,000 Pontiacs in the same time period, which contribute $150,000 to net profit.
One is more profitable, while the other is not only less profitable, but also more manufacturing, support, and resource-intensive; not to mention reducing focus on what really matters.
In other words, if sales volume is a legitimate measure of market demand, then how much demand exists for a state-of-the-art car that sells for $5 (when said car costs $10,000 to build)?
Then, add in the fact that most Pontiacs over the last 10 years left the lot some serious “on the hood” cash/incentives, and the business case for a niche, low-volume and low-margin product diminishes very quickly.
PS: the Pontiac loyalists do exist, no denying that. But I wonder how many of those loyalists would side with you in choosing not to purchase a leading, quality Chevrolet out of principle.
Also, here’s something else I’ve been pondering: the “Pontiac fire” will quell sooner rather than later… and loyalists (and even ex-owners) will move on.
But I would rather see better, safer, more fun vehicles from Chevy (or any other make, for that matter) than demand the return of a brand for “brand” sake. Does a brand progress humanity… or do the practices and fields of development, engineering, design, etc.?
Ultimately, I’d rather have a superior car… than to live in the past and demand a car with a specific badge. Just because.
According to High Performance Pontiac magazine circa 2009, ex-Pontiac owners already gave up on GM. All said they will never drive a GM again. Never say never.
All of them?
Every single Pontiac owner in 2009?
That must have been a mighty big poll.
@alex: As a Pontiac loyalist, I would prefer that the fire quell later rather than sooner. And if indeed GM DOESN’T revive Pontiac, I will take my business to a non-GM automaker. The Pontiac brand is obviously important to we Pontiac loyalists, REGARDLESS of whether that “progresses humanity” or not. We Pontiac loyalists ARE demanding a car with a specific badge.
I have a suggestion, how about giving us the option to “brand” our better, safer, more fun Chevy as a Pontiac. It could be an add on kit. I don’t know, it could work! =)
I wonder what kind of demand that would have. I personally WOULD buy a new Camaro if I could “brand” it as a Firebird. In fact, if you made that happen tomorrow, I might just have to buy one!
@VetteGyrl: Thank you for being open to purchasing a Pontiac, despite being a Chevy person (VETTE-Gyrl). That’s an interesting suggestion you made, but as a Pontiac loyalist, I’d prefer that Pontiac be more than just an add-on kit. I wouldn’t mind if–at first–Pontiac returned as some kind of “sub-brand” of Chevy, sold at Chevy dealers, as long as the Pontiacs carried the Pontiac insignia. But I would like to see Pontiac eventually evolve into a separate brand once again.
@alex: It DOES mean SQUAT to PONTIAC LOYALISTS. And isn’t your example a little more severe than was the case for Pontiac? How many Pontiac loyalists would side with me? How about how many ALREADY DID? Roughly 45@ of Pontiac’s former customers, for starters.
Oops. Typo. That’s 45%.
@jeffrey: Very good comment. I STILL own a Pontiac, and I couldn’t imagine purchasing a new Buick, as Buick survived AT PONTIAC’S EXPENSE. And indeed, Pontiac was GM’s performance/excitement division for decades, and I’d be glad to see it return that way. Thank you for offering specific ideas as to the kind of vehicles that a revived Pontiac might offer. On another thread, Pontiac detractors attacked me for not offering ideas as to specific models.
90 responses on the comments is this record?
I think we had another post or two that got over 150. But that was in 2011 🙂
Actually I think the record was made by article that was published a long time ago. Remember the one about Holden in which everyone was hating on Alex.
I think #2 is the one about the 2014 corvette, in which it crossed 100.
But this one is definitely near the top of the list.
I believe you’re correct! Boy that Holden piece was a doozie. Definitely wasn’t expecting the mass outcry from the Aussies… ironically, I don’t think most of them knew what a Cruze, Barina Spark, Captiva, or Malibu are.
Not a record, but if we regurgitate the information from the 560 plus posts in the Pontiac forum discussion, it could be. It looks like someone is try to do that. 😉
Aww man, I’ll be able to use JJ’s laugh again!
@Brian_E: If that someone is provoked, it’s understandable that he would.
lol do it graw do it
We must be patient and wait for just the right moment.
But I do have an itchy trigger finger.
ohhh so you’re being all sniper 😀
Maybe a tf2 sniper, but I don’t have a urinary tract problem.
Yet.
@Babersher: In response to one of my posts, you said, “GM isn’t capable of running Pontiac as it should be.” Why?
You also said, “No one really cares about budget performance anymore.” I question that claim. I would imagine that budget ANYTHING is always in demand, especially now when the economy isn’t as strong as it was, say, in 2007.
You implied that the millennial generation is important to the auto industry. Why couldn’t GM gear a revived Pontiac to that generation?
You said, “Pontiac’s revival should be considered…when all other GM brands are profitable.” Why aren’t those brands profitable, and it they aren’t, why are they still around? Why did Pontiac have to get the ax?
You said Pontiac’s revival should be considered “maybe in 20 years.” I would hope that its revival would be considered much sooner than that: No later than 10 years from now, preferably as soon as a year or two from now.
Youre asking alot of questions, that I could answer but are completely off topic, like the question of the economys and I would argue that the economy is stronger than it was in 2007, off topic, But I will answer a couple.
But I wll answer why Pontiac had to get the ax. Because Pontiac was the biggest loss making and identity less brand at the time. Even if you take out China, which alone is a reason to keep Buick, Buick had / has a positive reputation, even in 2007, before the Buick revival, if you say Buick, the average guy would think luxury in their head, yes old, slow, fat, ungainly luxury, but luxury nevertheless. When you said Pontiac and Saturn, average guy would think of a crappy grand am and a cheap sl. Lets look at the brands and why they were kept.
Cadillac: CTS showed cadillac has potential to beat BMW
Buick: just explained
Chevy: shouldnt need explanation
GMC: one word : GMT900 , GM couldnt risk cutting off the very profitable volume of the sierra and yukon.
“GM isn’t capable of running Pontiac as it should be.” Why?
Do I really need to answer this. Really? Just looked at what hapened to Pontiac from 190-2010, the same will happen if its revived right now.
“Why couldn’t GM gear a revived Pontiac to that generation”
Because todays millenial generation doesnt care about the kind of car you and me want Pontiac to build, the kind of cars like the G8 and and the firebird. Read some of my posts on the 2014 Corvette post on the last page. There ive detailed what the millenial generation wants, and it aint the Pontiac we want. Believe it or not, they want cars like the G6, civic si, and toyota celica. Do want Pontiac to build those type of cars. To me, Pontiac should all be about budget performance, real performance, not a fancy spoiler and semi-sporty styling.
You want Pontiac to be revived in a year or two? Really? Look at the state GM is in now, a state of huge and dramatic transition that started in 2009 and wont be finished till 2014, when, every car GM sells will have been updated by the “new GM” , basically there wont be any “Old GM” products left. So you want GM to revive Pontiac in the midst of this upheaval. Get real man? Dont let your passion for Pontiac run over your mind.
To clarify, I said that Pontiac’s revival should ALWAYS be considered by the folks at GM, but only once all the brands are complete and profitable and GM has a sense of calm and order. But as I said before, that wont happen till at least 2014, and maybe even a few years longer than that.
@Babersher: You said China is reason alone to keep Buick. My understanding is that almost all of GM’s profit last year came from the North American market, NOT the Chinese market. So: Why IS China reason to keep Buick?
If GM isn’t capable of running a revived Pontiac, why is GM capable of running the brands it has now?
As far as I’m concerned, GM can build ANY kind of car for Pontiac that GM wants. I’d rather have a Pontiac aimed at Millennials, than no Pontiac at all. “Half a loaf of bread is better than no bread at all.” I appreciate that you would prefer something better for Pontiac, and so would I. However, it would appear to me that the longer Pontiac stays dead, the less likely it is to ever return.
You said that GM’s current brands won’t be “complete and profitable” until at least 2014, perhaps a few years after. That’s fine with me, as long as Pontiac DOES return. However, it sticks in my craw that while Pontiac was axed for not being “complete and profitable,” the other GM brands are still around despite NOT being “complete and profitable” yet, as you say.
Youre talking about 2011, in 2009, China was GM’s only profitable region, China still generates plenty of profit, just not as much as NA, but China is also growing faster than NA so more room for more profit.
GM is capable of running the brands it has now because their target demographics are easily identified and they appeal to a much broader range than Pontiac ever did, also in 2009, they were losing less money than Pontiac and Saturn were.
Here I strongly disagree with you, I only want Pontiac back if the Pontiac that comes back is what Pontiac should be. Because unless GM makes the revived Pontiac a full loaf of bread, it wont survive and prosper, that half a loaf of bread will deteriate and soon become no loaf of bread. I want Pontiac to be the best, not do the same thing it did before, which, as we all saw, resulted it in getting axed.
I already answered this question but ill answer it again, Cadillac, Buick, Chevy, and GMC were all losing less money than Pontiac and Saturn were, plus they were easier to revive. They were losing less money than Pontiac and had great brand recognition and reputation and they were already chowing signs of revival. Like Chevys camaro and cruze and volt, cadillacs cts, and buicks enclave, did Pontiac have a standard bearer that was showing promise? No it didnt, so it had to go.
@Babersher: I respect your position that Pontiac should return ONLY if it returns as it should be (which, I’m assuming from your posts, is a performance brand). I’ve seen the same position taken by other people, on other Pontiac-related threads. As a former owner of five GTOs, a Trans Am, and a Firebird Formula 400, I’d love to see a revived Pontiac continue as a performance brand. However, it’s been almost exactly three years to the day that Pontiac’s shuttering was announced, and I’m getting pretty frustrated. A revived Pontiac can always EVOLVE back to a performance brand. I’d much rather see Pontiac revived sooner rather than later, with whatever kind of “personality” GM sees fit, just so the brand gets its foot in the door. Then, over time, Pontiac can morph back to a performance brand. I’m not all comfortable with Pontiac still being dead, with no indication that it might return. I don’t want Pontiac to be like Olds, dead for seven or eight years. Yes, like you, I want Pontiac to be the best. But perhaps it has to start small, taking baby steps at first.
Finally, are you suggesting that Pontiac DIDN’T have “great brand recognition and reputation”? Pontiac was one of the most iconic GM brands. Also: Pontiac had no standard beared? What about the G8? What was Buick’s standard bearer?
Buicks was the Enclave and regal and lacrosse
Pontiac didnt have “great brand recognition and reputation”, do you really think a crappy grand am and a sunfire generates a great reputation. Have you owned either of those cars, if you have you should know what im talking about. It is iconic to us, those who appreciate its history and its potential, but to the average buyer, who ultimately will decide a brands fate(there are not enough of us enthusiast to keep a brand afloat), it had a horrible reputation and had completely drifted off the mind of buyers, In 2009, im sure most people could not even name one car in pontiacs lineup!
The G8 was a great start in the right step, but the G8, as a very low volume car didnt generate enough profit to keep Ponriac afloat.
@Babersher: First of all, the Grand Am was succeeded by the G6, and the Sunfire was succeeded by the G5. Therefore, if anything, Pontiac should have been judged by those newer models. Also, if the Grand Am and Sunfire were “crappy,” they were surely no “crappier” than Chevy’s equivalents (and Buick’s, in the case of the Grand Am). All of those models were corporate “sister” models.
Also, I think you exaggerate when you say, “In 2009, most people could not even name one car in Pontiac’s lineup!” And they could name at least one car in Buick’s lineup, then? Was Buick more recognizable or popular than Pontiac?
Finally, you’re saying that Buick had THREE standard bearers, while Pontiac had ZERO? I think you greatly exaggerate there.
Doesnt matter what Pontiac should or should not have been judged by, the fact is, that when you ask a average buyer about what they think of Pontiac, theyll tell you the horrific stories of the sunfire and grand am, thats how bad their reputation.
Damn, im going to stop repeating myself, you ask the same question every time and then I answer.
Buick survived because of China
Chevy survived, because as the volume brand you couldnt kill it off.
Cadillac survived because of the CTS
GMC survived because of the Sierra and the Yukon
Hopefully you get by know why Pontiac was killed off and GMs other brands werent, if yout dont, then youre not listening to common sense and / or not completely reading and understanding my posts, so I have nothing else to say.
@Babersher: OK, you don’t have to respond if you don’t want to, but you’re sounding like another one of those Pontiac detractors, rather than one who actually wants to uplift the brand. And quite frankly, I’m getting a little frustrated with YOUR responses, too. Since you’re getting tired of responding, I will post statements rather than questions.
The Sunfire and Grand Am were “horrific,” you say. But Chevy’s and Buick’s equivalents weren’t, even though they were all corporate clones. That’s supposed to be “common sense.”
I’m not challenging that Chevy, Cadillac, and GMC should have (and did) survive. Chevy and GMC each outsold Pontiac. Cadillac had to survive, not necessarily because of the CTS, but because every automaker needs a luxury brand.
I might be willing to admit that Pontiac “had” to be axed, given circumstances AT THE TIME. I WOULD like to see some indication that GM plans to revive the brand.
Sorry, its late and im tired, hence the frustration, except a longer, detailed and calmer response tomorrow afternoon.
I would absolutely love for GM to give Pontiac another chance. No matter how hard they try, a Chevrolet is never going to be able to replace a Pontiac in my book. They just do not have the same Vibe (ha ha, see what I did there)…even in the platform-sharing days, the Pontiacs always had more agressive styling. Even the G3 and G5 were aimed at a younger/younger at heart audience than the Chevy Aveo and Cobalt platforms they were derived from, like the Sunbird/Sunfire and the Cavalier before them. Frankly, I think the worst thing GM did to the brand was strip it of its identity when they got rid of the “gaudy” body paneling. Who cares about the “boy-racer” stereotyping? Wake up, guys, that’s one of the things that made a Pontiac, a Pontiac!
“Even the G3 and G5 were aimed at a younger/younger at heart audience than the Chevy Aveo and Cobalt platforms they were derived from”
So the G3 and G5 were marketed to people even younger than 16?
Okay, maybe I should rephrase that…the G3 and G5 were aimed at a customer wanting an more aggressive stance than the Aveo and Cobalt offered.
Granted, I’m not saying either one was a good idea.
@CivoLee: GREAT post. I’m getting sick and tired of Pontiac detractors who insist that Chevy is a close-enough substitute for Pontiac. Hey: “Close” counts only in horseshoes, darts, and hand grenades. I don’t care HOW similiar a Chevy was to a Pontiac; it WASN’T a Pontiac. I’m also sick and tired of Pontiac detractors bad-mouthing the body-cladding. I was OK with the body-cladding.
I like how this is just very ongoing!
What can I say…we Pontiac fans are a passionate lot.
EXACTLY! This thread keeps going on, because PONTIAC PASSION keeps going on. I hope GM comes-around to it.
But unfortunately Pontiac PASSION is not enough to keep an entire brand profitable. There arent enough enthusiasts for that, any brand, whether its BMW or Mazda, has to appeal to the average buyer, and until Pontiac has cars that do both, it can be revived, but it wont survive.
@Babersher: I recall that just days after it was announced that Pontiac would be shut down, there were websites angrily denouncing that decision. I recall one such website in particular which revealed–bar graph and all–that Pontiac was outselling Buick two-to-one. The reason I mentioned that is that you seem to be implying that there isn’t enough demand to permit a revived Pontiac to survive. I would agree that no auto brand can survive on its enthusiasts alone. Here’s the thing: It wasn’t only Pontiac enthusiasts who purchased Pontiacs. Pontiac had ALL KINDS of customers who purchased Pontiacs, for ANY NUMBER of reasons. If you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, you will find a PLETHORA of websites. Look at the thread we’re on now. Look at the poll results of this thread. I happen to think that if GM does it right, Pontiac can be revived AND can survive.
Again, one main reason other manufacturers are doing better than GM is because they ae only concentrating on 2 brands. Hyundai/Kia, Toyota/Lexus (let’s not count Scion). Even Ford took notice and ditched their pathetic Mercury. Now Ford is concentrating on Ford and Lincoln. They are actually just now letting loose with Lincoln. I still say 4 brands is too many.
@Tim: Well, you’re probably not going to get a whole lot of Pontiac loyalists to agree with you. I know from reading God knows how many Pontiac-related threads, that many–if not most–Pontiac loyalists have no interest in GM apart from Pontiac. I.e., if GM doesn’t revive Pontiac, then GM can take a hike. Which in turn means GM LOSES them as customers.
I think if all Pontiac should be brought back and Buick should be discontinued Cadilac is enough of a luxury brand and then they could focus on designing cars for Pontiac instead of Chevys with Pontiacs name plate.
Lol. To say that is to show that you clearly have no understanding of the luxury market.
@schlief101: I share your sentiment. I’ve resented Buick ever since it survived at Pontiac’s expense almost exactly three years ago. I’ve been attacked for it on this thread and other Pontiac-related threads. Those who would see Pontiac remain dead, always play the China card. As an American consumer, I don’t CARE that CHINA likes Buick. Other naysayers to Pontiac, play-up Buick’s upscale image. Never mind that Buick then starts to step on Cadillac’s toes. As much as I resent Buick, I’d be OK with Buick being sold IN CHINA ONLY. THEN, GM should revive Pontiac, and sell it once again in the US and Canada. It was very popular in Canada.
Yes bring it back, but only if it’s run correctly. Pontiac needs to be run by real car guys as a performance division. Avoid re-badging every car to cut down on competition with Chevy. Keep only certain lines like the G8 and Firebird. We need a brand between Chevy and Cadillac.
Sounds good. And talk about needing a brand between Chevy and Cadillac: I suspect that Buick will be gone–at least from the North American market–in two years. It would appear to me that that would be yet another reason to revive Pontiac.
Here we go… again. Seriously?
If you honestly think that Buick is going to be discontinued from ANY market, you lack the most basic business sense.
I don’t know why I need to keep bringing this up over and over exclusively to you @Moanalua — Buick is a luxury brand that commands high margins per vehicle. And GM is in the business of making money from its vehicles. Anything that Pontiac did well, Chevy will now do — and do it better. End of story.
Buick is not going anywhere. Especially since the Riviera name got trademarked again. Expect a Lucerne replacement, but more competent. Better handling to be exact.
@Alex Luft, @Tim rosser: You think I made that up? I was surprised, too. That claim was made by two individuals on another Pontiac-related website. One claimant is a Pontiac loyalist, the other is an Olds loyalist. That Olds loyalist, in particular, clearly seems to be a GM specialist. I can tell by his posts. That guy really seems to know what he’s talking about. Anyway, both of those individuals claim that Buick is in trouble here in the US.
In that case, the folks you’re referring to are either highly misinformed or lack the understanding of business operations. You should send them this way so we could elucidate them 🙂
Done.
I’m just saying that GM has just invested a lot in revamping Buick. 40% of buyers right now are new to Buick. Not to mention, I can’t tell you how many people come up to me and ask me about my Regal GS. From
A business perspective, Buick is not going anywhere. They certainly aren’t causing GM to lose any money.
Well, we’ll see if the Olds loyalist from the other website responds. He says Buick is in trouble in North America. He does imply, however, that Buick might continue to be sold in China only. After all, that’s the excuse that GM used for murdering Pontiac rather than Buick.
Let’s see if he does show 🙂
But even still, he’s totally nuts if he thinks that Buick is in some kind of “trouble”. The brand is highly profitable, is attracting new buyers, and hasn’t even delivered “real” Buick vehicles — since what we see today has been planned since the bankruptcy days.
What’s important to understand here is that GM has the ability and is on the patch of DOMINATING the luxury market with the Buick and Cadillac brands/vehicles.
Also to set the record straight: GM didn’t use any “excuse” for keeping Buick around vs. Pontiac. All hearings were behind closed-doors… and no one made any excuses.
As far as I’m concerned–as a Pontiac loyalist–it WAS an excuse. Pontiac was outselling Buick two-to-one here.
Once again, sales volume does not equal or result in profitability, or other intangible factors such as image and future growth opportunities.
In the back of our minds, we know that’s true. But it’s still pretty aggravating when Pontiac outsells Buick TWO-TO-ONE, and STILL gets the axe. I mean, the sales here weren’t even CLOSE.
… while being much more profitable with tons more revenue- and income-generating potential than Pontiac ever had.
That doesn’t mean much to Pontiac loyalists, does it? And, I suspect that that sure as heck won’t get a lot of former Pontiac customers into new Buicks.
Who said that GM wants to put former Pontiac customers into Buicks?
@Alex Luft: Unless you’re implying that GM is trying to get them into Chevys, isn’t it obvious that the fallback brand would be Buick?
I am going to bring this news here, but I know some facts that you all must be made aware of.
A person who works for Buick-GMC was on Autoline After Hours. He stated why Pontiac was axed and why Buick lives. It was not just the fact Buick sells in China and it is profitable there. GM did some internal work and surveyed buyers. When asked about Pontiac, the people who were GM and non GM buyers said horrible things about Pontiac, it’s cars, its buyers and its owners. When asked about Buick, they have nothing but positive things to say. Even though many of them had never owned one, they had positive stories from relatives. It was then GM decided that Buick had the most potential to change and they saved Buick in the United States.
The second part of what I wanted to say:
Buick is in trouble. GM is now trying to figure out why. Buick sales have been down for seven straight months even though they have new product. Cadillac’s have been down for that long too. This is a dilemma. Cadillacs will go up because they have product coming where Buick does not other that small suv. Enclave and Regal sales are down. They said GM thinks because Buick has moved away from fleet sales which hurt the product in the past. Buick’s demographic has dropped too. Most buyers to Buick are new now. Buick still has the image of its old image that it cannot over come too. They also said GM needs to decide if Buick is going to be the Acura Infiniti Lexus fighter or not. Buick’s marketing and image is not focused. Buick also does not have any large cars either since dropping the Lucerne. GM is also not listening to the Buick dealers either when it needs to. They said that Buick is now getting into the luxury lease business and should have been on that boat a long time ago. The dealers said the biggest obstacle is convincing buyers Buick is not the Buick they think it is.
Buick is also walking a fine line. Buick has to appeal to its former owners while getting new ones. They do not want to offend is customer base.
Add to that reliability is an issue too.
I just wanted to share.
Thanks for sharing, 98 Regency. To summarize, Buick is in trouble because overall sales are down and no new product is in the pipeline for the next 3 years, except for the Encore.
Here is some food for thought:
– The Envision will be out in the short-medium future:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/01/exclusive-gm-files-for-envision-trademark-will-be-name-of-upcoming-buick-crossover/
– As you mentioned, fleet sales are down. To consider, fleet sales are down *significantly* — and the unit, overall, is much more profitable than it ever was.
An overall lower sales volume could result in higher profitability. This may or may not be the case here.
– In regards to new product in the pipeline… this is the exact same position as Lexus was in 2-3 years ago. Sales have dipped slightly, but the new wave of Lexus vehicles (starting with new GS and ES, followed by IS) will reverse that trend. The same can be said of Buick: the Envision, all-new LaCrosse and Enclave will arrive in 2-3 years, followed by other models. In the meantime, refreshes will do just fine.
And that’s based on what we know today; let’s not forget that GM has become much more tight-lipped about future production plans. For instance, how do we know that one of these vehicles won’t make its way to the U.S.?
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/04/holden-to-develop-two-vehicles-for-chinese-market/
– “Buick still has the image of its old image that it cannot over come too”
Why can it not overcome this image? The latest figures show that it is overcoming the stigma you describe quite well:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/05/41-percent-of-buick-buyers-new-to-brand/
It will take some time to fully rid itself of the stigma; but outside of that, why don’t you think Buick can’t take care of the “old man’s car” image?
– “They also said GM needs to decide if Buick is going to be the Acura Infiniti Lexus fighter or not. Buick’s marketing and image is not focused.”
Agreed. In my opinion, Buick needs to become the direct competitor of Lexus circa early 2000s. Full-bore soft luxury. No compromises on that front. No cloth and no manual seat and steering wheel adjusters — for starters…
This itself is a fairly interesting topic since it could be that in the process of moving Buick upmarket, the goal is to get customers to try the brand’s vehicles “on the cheap” using the low content levels and hence low prices for the Buck semi-luxury vehicles, since the brand can’t currently command higher prices. But with time — as the brand moves up — so can the prices. Again, think of the transformation of Lexus in the 1990s — charging low prices of luxury — to the Lexus of today (charging near-BMW/MBZ prices).
– “Buick also does not have any large cars either since dropping the Lucerne”
Technically, the LaCrosse has more interior space than the Lucerne did; but even then, there definitely should be a full-sized flagship sedan. Whether that is/will be the LaCrosse or another model is anyone’s guess at this point…
– “They said that Buick is now getting into the luxury lease business and should have been on that boat a long time ago. The dealers said the biggest obstacle is convincing buyers Buick is not the Buick they think it is.”
That’s a surefire sign of a brand/product in transition. With time and quality product, the convincing buyers part can be done.
“Buick is also walking a fine line. Buick has to appeal to its former owners while getting new ones. They do not want to offend is customer base.”
The same can be said for Lexus and Mercedes, as well as Cadillac. All are vying to keep the customers that came in when their vehicles were “softer” and more affordable… while attracting new, younger customers.
Overall, it’s purely a matter of perspective. But the fact is that we’re seeing here is a brand/product/lineup in significant transition. It may be difficult to imagine this, but let’s think 15-20 years down the road — where Buick offers a full-line of pure luxury vehicles — ones that are soft (in all respects), quiet, and full of the latest cutting-edge technology — while commanding a top-shelf luxury price. By then, it could have shed its image of being the “old man’s” brand and could be selling its luxury vehicles to all kinds of customers — young, old, and otherwise. What we see today is how Buick gets there… perhaps it’s difficult to envision the kind of Buick I just described today — but this is what business planning, brand planning, product planning, and overall strategic planning is all about.
i Kind of see that Acura is kinda directly compare to Buick based on the Verano and the ILX
@98 REGENCY: Thank you for your candid response. I’m assuming–by your user-name–that you’re a Buick loyalist. I give you credit for being frank. I thought there was something to what that Olds loyalist on another website said. As I had mentioned, that person seems to know the auto industry well.
Regency was a trim level of the Olds 98 as far as I remember…
That’s right. I don’t know what I was thinking last night. I realized my error just a few hours ago, when I thought again about my response to 98 REGENCY. What got me thinking about it was that Olds also had the Delta 88, and I thought, “Oh oh, that’s right; the 98 Regency is an Olds.” But now we have TWO Olds loyalists who have indicated that Buick is in trouble (at least in North America).
This may be matter of semantics, but we have folks who were of the opinion that Buick is “in trouble”. After being presented with several facts, it seems that their opinions have changed, if not made them reconsider their original opinion.
It seems that in your quest to bring back your favorite brand, you are attempting to do everything you can to bring down Buick, without allowing for facts to get in the way… simply because you think that Buick “killed” Pontiac.
Not quite. The two people I first alluded to who mentioned that Buick was in trouble–at least in North America–are on a different website. As far as I know, their opinion hasn’t changed.
Have you considered how it appears to Pontiac loyalists, when you unfailingly defend the brand that survived at Pontiac’s expense?
As a clarification, it wasn’t BUICK that killed Pontiac. It was GM. We Pontiac loyalists want our brand back; you’re darned tootin’ about that. Are we supposed to sing, “Kumbaya” when you defend the brand that survived at its expense? PARTICULARLY when Pontiac was TWICE as popular here than Buick was?
As long as you keep throwing the “Pontiac more popular than Buick” card, I will keep “unfailingly defend”ing Buick — because your argument is moot.
The “people” you refer to are either misinformed or in some other way unhinged, as no sane person with at least a hint of business sense would even begin to think that Buick is in any way, shape, or form “troubled”. Buick makes a good product and has tremendous potential, potential that — executed properly — will allow GM to own the luxury car market. Don’t attack it because you’re “mad”.
Lastly, no I don’t expect you to sing Kumbaya or any other song, for that matter. My only concern is that you provide information that’s not necessarily inaccurate, but that sure as heck is unfairly and inaccurately biased, to users who are unaware and wouldn’t know otherwise.
You still haven’t addressed the fact that you seem to have no compunction about Pontiac loyalists having lost their brand. And then you rub salt into their wounds by praising Buick to the skies. Hey: Buick survived AT PONTIAC’S EXPENSE. I would think that you would expect Pontiac loyalists to gravitate to a thread like this one. YOU are the one who is playing the “defend Buick” card. And as long as you do that, as a Pontiac loyalist I will call you on it.
By the way, I would be careful about insulting people whom you don’t even know. As I said, that Olds loyalist on the other website not only knows a lot about GM; he also has an extensive business background.
Have you totally lost control of your noggin’? Why must I feel guilty for Pontiac’s disappearance? I had nothing to do with it… but wait — I probably did, you may say — since I didn’t buy a Pontiac. In that case, guilty as charged.
Unlike you, I have no agenda and simply call it how it is: in its last few years, Pontiac made a poor and uncompetitive product, with two glaring exceptions. I don’t need to defend quality products that have an extremely bright future (read: Buick). I’m defending Buick from your malicious attacks that are not only unfounded, but also carry a heavy agenda.
“By the way, I would be careful about insulting people whom you don’t even know.”
Do you possess the ability to read between the lines and realize friendly sarcasm rather than a threat? Apparently not.
“As I said, that Olds loyalist on the other website not only knows a lot about GM; he also has an extensive business background.”
That’s excellent, as it would make for an educated, pragmatic conversation. Is he coming?
@Alex Luft: It seems to me that YOU are the one who has “lost it.” I never suggested that you are responsible for Pontiac’s demise. What I WOULD appreciate, is a little more consideration about how Pontiac loyalists feel about the loss of their brand.
No; of COURSE you had no obligation to purchase a Pontiac. Again, all I’m asking is for just a little considerateness about Pontiac loyalists’ loss of their brand.
Yes, I have an agenda. I would think that most Pontiac loyalists who bother to generate posts do, too. The reason YOU may have no agenda is that YOUR brand–which I assume is Chevy–wasn’t murdered. Perhaps if the shoe were on the other foot, YOU would have an agenda, too.
When did I “attack” Buick “maliciously”? It seems to me that YOU are the one maliciously attacking PONTIAC half the time.
Also, I DIDN’T detect any “friendly sarcasm” in your previous post. What I saw was an insulting comment.
As to whether that Olds loyalist will respond: I don’t know. It’s up to him.
Speak softly and drive a Buick.
O boy why did you have to ask this lol and no GM has it’s hands full with everything that is going on now 🙂
Alex:
Thank you for your well thought out educated response. It is appreciated. I was only quoting the sources that stated the information. The old man’s stigma can be changed, but the dealers said it is an issue and reporters and industry people said it is an issue. That is something that will change with time. The other points you addressed what was said and agreed to most of the things I brought to the discussion.
Thank you again for your response.
I think Buick is actually ditching the old man image quite successfully. This past weekend, I attended my grandmothers 92’d birthday. My 2012 Regal GS was quite the hit. I can’t believe how many people ooooed and awed and plain out gawked over this car. It also attracts quite a few gawkers on the highway and I have certainly had numerous people come up to me in parking lots wanting information. Old man image is gone. The word is getting out that Buick is not the same as of old. And anyone with good eyes can see how stylish the current line up from Buick is. And one key thing we have to remember………and that is the Riviera name being trademarked by GM again.
The Olds 98 was the top of the Oldsmobile line for many decades. In the early days, the top of the line Olds 98 was the 98 Luxury Sedan( LS). Regency was a trim level that first appear in 1972 as a celebration of Oldsmobile’s 75th anniversary. It proved to be popular that it became its own trim level after that and top of the line for years. The LS trim got bumped down a step. It eventually was phased out in the early 1980’s. The there was a base model 98 Regency. In 1982 it was replaced by 98 Regency Brougham. The 98 Regency Brougham was replaced by 98 Regency Elite in 1991. The Olds 98 died after the 1996 model year. For two years they had Oldsmobile Regency. The Oldsmobile Regency was an Eighty Eight with 98 Regency parts. They took the grille, the wheels, the seats, and the interior and placed them on the Eighty Eight line. This lasted 1997-1998 model years. They had done this before in the 1980’s. It was called Delta 88 Royale Brougham LS. I am an Oldsmobile enthusiast.
Thanks for the walk down history lane 🙂
I rode in a 98 once when I was a little kid; don’t remember the year, but it was my first and only experience with an Olds.
Yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I mistakenly thought the 98 Regency was a Buick. I don’t know why I thought that. I knew that the Delta 88 was an Olds; the “88” should have clued me in that the “98” was an Olds, too. Instead, I drew a blank.
Now I might sound like a Buick fan boy, and although my first car was a 1981 Skylark, this is not the case. I chose a new Regal GS to be different. To be able to decimate these import cars with a car that would be unexpected. What better way to do that than in a car like a Buick. In reality, Buick doesn’t have a serious car. The GS is fast, decently athletic, and fun to drive, but suffers from being FWD and heavy. Its sad to see such historic car companies such as Pontiac go. GM was too late in the game to revamp Pontiac, even with such impressive cars as the G8 and Solstice. In the end, it was GM and its horrible management that was Pontiac’s downfall.
That’s a common-sense, down-to-earth, and realistic recount of what happened. That said, I love the GS, even with all of the “downsides” on paper…
@Tim rosser: I appreciate that post. And, I thank you for being sympathetic towards Pontiac. At least you’re not trying to denigrate Pontiac, like some other people on this thread.
Thanks Alex!!
@Moanalua
“@Alex Luft: Unless you’re implying that GM is trying to get them into Chevys, isn’t it obvious that the fallback brand would be Buick?”
No, it’s not obvious. Completely different cars for people who value a completely different driving/transportation experience… not to mention that all Buicks are priced higher (base) than all Pontiacs were…
Obviously, GM wants to retain Pontiac’s former customers. I think we can agree that if a former Pontiac customer won’t purchase a Chevy, GM would think the next most likely brand would be Buick. If not that, perhaps a GMC.
Would love to see it happen looking at you G.M.
@ Moanalua
Long time no write… I haven’t figured out how to unsubscribe from this thread, so I keep getting flooded with emails when this debate gets reignited.
I am compelled to respond at this time, because I see you repeating the same argument pitting Buick against Pontiac. It seems that you feel that you’re defending your position and that the other is the offender in this debate. If you retrace the conversations, you will realize that you are the one who stokes the flames of any Buick vs. Pontiac dispute. Assigning the blame for Pontiac’s ousting to Buick is unfounded. Comparing the raw sales numbers for two vastly different cars is uninformed and misleading. There is no connection between the two.
This connection is false for the following reasons:
Buick was marketed to a different buyer than Pontiac customers.
This can be proven true by comparing the chassis platforms for the respective models.
Buick did not overlap with Pontiac.
This can also be proven true by evaluating the buying demographics.
Buick buyers were largely different ages and incomes from Pontiac with different desires for what they wanted. Any overlap is statistically insignificant.
Also, Buick sales in China has no connection with Pontiac. It was a benefit to Buick, but not a detriment to Pontiac in any way. Selling a Buick in China has nothing to do with Pontiac.
Pontiac vehicles had platform sharing with Chevrolet (except for the low volume Solstice and G8). Pontiac buyers were statistically similar to Chevrolet buyers with their ages, incomes, and content preferences. Aside from stylistic differences, Pontiac didn’t offer anything different from a Chevy. The sales numbers clearly showed a strong preference for Chevrolet over Pontiac. Pontiac was unable to establish an identity without Chevy – they were too similar and fought for the same market.
Buick had nothing to do with Pontiacs’ demise. Pontiac’s image does not fit the buying demographic that Buick is currently targeting. Buick is no more responsible for ending Pontiac than Cadillac is. The real reason for Pontiac’s discontinuation is 30+ years of GM corporate mismanagement. Pontiac was discontinued because it no longer made financial sense to duplicate engineering, sales, marketing, distribution, accounting and manufacturing support for Chevy and Pontiac (and Saturn) all directed at the same customer base. Chevrolet has directly benefited from Pontiacs absence. This is the same reason Oldsmobile was discontinued. And even then, Chevrolet saw the bigger benefits. Chevrolet is obviously stronger now because of this – their sales numbers bear that out as well.
Moanalua, please do not take this personally, I mean you no disrespect. I am merely pointing out the facts, and the facts show that Buick did not survive at Pontiac’s expense. Buick was an independent decision completely separate from Pontiac as the facts demonstrate. Buick has not replaced Pontiac, Chevy has.
@Brian_E: I’m not offended at all, and I don’t take your post personally. I agree that Buick wasn’t responsible for Pontiac’s murder, at least not directly. In fact, in an earlier post I mentioned that GM murdered Pontiac, not Buick. Nonetheless, the fact remains that it came down to either Pontiac or Buick having to go. I’ve been on Pontiac-related websites and threads for three years, and there are MANY Pontiac loyalists who find it outrageous that it was Pontiac that got the ax, despite selling twice as many vehicles here as Buick did. In THAT sense, Buick DID in fact survive at Pontiac’s expense. I’ve read it many times on other websites and threads. In other words, if it were Buick that had gotten the ax, Pontiac would probably still be around. That’s not necessarily to suggest that Buick had it in for Pontiac.
I guess you didn’t understand the point of my last comment.
Buick had absolutely nothing to do with the Pontiac decision.
It was NOT an either/or situation.
Buick wasn’t responsible directly OR indirectly.
They were completely unrelated and have no bearing on the other.
If there never was a Buick, Pontiac still would have been discontinued because of the drain it was on Chevrolet. The facts carefully laid out in my previous comment bear that out.
It had nothing to do with Buick.
Buick succeeded purely on its own merits.
Regardless of how many it sold, Buick sold enough to be profitable, because of its profit margin. Pontiac sold more than Cadillac, too. Yet, there is no complaining that Cadillac survived at Pontiac’s expense. Comparing Cadillac to Pontiac is absurd, and so is comparing Buick to Pontiac. They were vastly different brands, with vastly different cars, and with vastly different markets. Even if there was no Buick, GM would not be able to mark the price up on Pontiacs and sell them. They has to give deep discounts just to get them off the lots in their last two years. Unfortunately, Pontiac was losing money or barely breaking even, while the comparable Chevrolet models were selling respectably and at a profit. Again, there were no comparable Buick models to Pontiac. There is nothing to compare between Buick and Pontiac. It was and always has been Chevrolet vs. Pontiac. It’s been that way since the first Chevy small block. That is just the facts. Buick is irrelevant to Pontiac’s end.
It never was Either Buick or Pontiac.
Actually, I DID understand. And if you claim it was never an either/or situation between Buick and Pontiac, you’ll have to break that news to a LOT of Pontiac loyalists on other websites. As I had mentioned, I’ve seen a LOT of that while visiting Pontiac-related websites over the past three years. Are you claiming that there was NEVER a point where GM had to decide between Buick and Pontiac? Again, if you are, you have a lot of informing to do, on a lot of Pontiac-related websites. In the three years I’ve spent visiting those websites, you are the FIRST person to claim that Buick was “irrelevant” to Pontiac’s end.
Furthermore, you may notice that I’ve never begrudged Cadillac, even though Pontiac outsold it. Why? Because I recognize that every automaker needs a luxury brand. ONE luxury brand, not two.
“Furthermore, you may notice that I’ve never begrudged Cadillac, even though Pontiac outsold it. Why? Because I recognize that every automaker needs a luxury brand. ONE luxury brand, not two.”
If you truly think so, you have a very poor understanding of the luxury market and the potential of two luxury brands.
@Ales Luft: So you’re saying that Buick is so different than Cadillac, that it made complete sense for GM to dump Pontiac? Pontiac: A strong, iconic legacy brand with a much-larger fanbase than Buicks? Isn’t Buick almost as similar to Cadillac as Pontiac was to Chevy?
“So you’re saying that Buick is so different than Cadillac…”
Yes. I’m not going to repeat the reasons, as I have already numerous times.
@Alex Luft: Would you mind repeating them, so we can judge them anew?
@Maonalua,
I didn’t claim it. I presented facts that proved it. The FACTS proved that any comparison was between Chevrolet and Pontiac. If there was any comparison at all. Any business person worth their salt would judge a business (or in this case, a car brand) on their own merits. Doing so exposes that Pontiac was too dependent u[on Chevrolet. It would have taken too much investment to make Pontiac a distinct and independent brand. That is why GM couldn’t justify keeping Pontiac. That is a FACT.
Opinion boards and forums do not take precedent over facts. I’ve laid out facts that clearly connect dots between Pontiac and Chevrolet.
The only dots connecting Buick to Pontiac are those at the end of sentences spouted by uninformed people.
Regardless of what you or others on various websites think, the facts are the facts. Pontiac failed because it was competing internally with Chevrolet and it was not profitable for GM to have two brands competing with each other. Pontiac was never competing with Buick. There are no facts to corroborate what you’ve read on other Pontiac websites. You can’t believe everything you read on the interwebz. Get your head out of your… message boards. Find some sites with more Authority (see what I did there?) Go to the Library even. Dig in, do a little research, and find the facts.
BTW, I’ve figured out how to unsubscribe from the threads, so I won’t be following up. I’ve repeated myself too much already.
I only replied to you earlier in an earnest attempt to present some facts to enable you to be more informed instead of you spreading the same propaganda. I realize I have failed. You value opinions over facts.
You can respond to me if you want. I know how you have to have the last word. I won’t reply and I cancelled by subscription to this thread, so I won’t even see your response.
I’ve laid out facts – relevant facts. You have not.
Pontiac outselling Buick 2 to 1 is NOT a relevant fact.
Buick surviving at Pontiac’s expense is FALSE. That has been proven false already – regardless of what some misinformed keyboard jockeys have typed on the world wide web.
This really disappointed me to be at such odds with another Pontiac fan. Despite our odds, I do wish you the best of luck in your pursuits – Pontiac related and otherwise.
Respectfully,
Brian Engman
Since Brian_E won’t be responding, I’d like to offer the following for others to consider: My understanding is that when GM had narrowed itself down to five brands, the feds said it would have to cut another brand. Chevy wouldn’t go, because it was the #1 brand at GM. GMC wouldn’t go, because it outsold Pontiac. Cadillac wouldn’t go, because every automaker needs a luxury brand (Chrysler Group=Chrysler, Ford=Lincoln, Toyota=Lexus, etc.). That left only Buick and Pontiac. GM cut Pontiac. Question: How, then, can Brian_E claim that Buick DIDN’T survive at Pontiac’s expense?
@Moanalau
I am in the same situation as Brian, If you remember, we had a very lengthy debate then I disappeared and stopped responding because just like Brian, I got tired of repeating myself as well. After all the lengthy, incredibly deep, and accurate arguments Brian and I made, you still dont get it, no offense, but you stubbornly cling to your false beliefs. Anyway, I wont be responding again either.
Buick had nothing to do with Pontiac’s death.
Accept it or continue to fight it, its the truth.
Good Luck
Since Babersher won’t be responding, I’d like to offer the rest of you the same response I made to Brian_E: I don’t dispute that Buick was directly responsible for Pontiac’s demise. But didn’t it STILL come down to either Buick or Pontiac going? As Pontiac was the one that went, can we NOT say that Buick did, in fact, survive at Pontiac’s expense?
Sorry, correction: I don’t dispute that Buick was NOT directly responsible for Pontiac’s demise.
You have been shown by numerous people who have elected to no longer discuss this with you the frank facts. But you fail to understand them. Again.
Buick was NEVER in danger of being discontinued, as it was never unprofitable. Pontiac was severely less profitable. There was no magic number of four remaining brands. And it was never Buick vs Pontiac. It was purely about what made money and made sense in the marketplace at large. Can you acknowledge the transmission?
@Alex Luft: OK, since you’re so sure of that position, perhaps you’d be so kind as to inform all the other Pontiac loyalists on all the other threads on all the other Pontiac-related websites. Then tell us what happened. For what it’s worth, keep in mind that Pontiac was outselling Buick two-to-one here. What effect do you think THAT fact had on Pontiac loyalists?
Yet again, you managed to bring up Pontiac outselling Buick. Incorrect and completely irrelevant. This is like talking to a pancake, but somehow the pancake is able talk back.
I’m going to cease replying to you for the sake of my personal sanity. Good luck.
Since Alex Luft will no longer reply, I would like to offer the following to the rest of us:
Here were the sales rankings at GM when Pontiac was shut down:
#1 Chevy
#2 GMC
#3 Pontiac
#4 Buick
Those figures are neither incorrect nor irrelevant.
Well, I’m no expert, but here’s my theory. Chevy, is well Chevy. They are GM’s flagship brand. They are always going to be number one. GMC sells trucks, and we all know they pretty much are selling to fleets. Pontiac, they only had two decent cars when they were shut down. The G8 and Solstice. The rest were Chevy’s. People were buying rebadged Chevy’s for the sake of having a Pontiac. And where was Cadillac in this equation?
@Tim rosser: First of all, I would disagree that the G8 and Solstice were the only decent vehicles Pontiac had. As a Pontiac loyalist, I was OK with ALL of Pontiac’s vehicles, with the POSSIBLE exception of the G3. Furthermore, a Pontiac is a Pontiac, whether the vehicle is rebadged or not. I didn’t mention Cadillac in the rankings. I know for sure that it was below Buick, but I don’t know how far down. I would imagine that Saturn outsold Cadillac.
1) Why not sell 5000 of the upcoming Chevy SS as the pontiac G8 through Buick/GMC dealer if they sell ,slowly bring back pontaic if not then you know people no longer want the brand 2) I was told GM wanted to keep pontaic but the president said no
1) No, because the volume is too low and the MSRP will be higher than what the majority can afford.
Remember, Pontiac is small Chevy, not a sports car company. If Pontiac is to return, it would be on the backs of rebadged Sonics, Cruzes, and Sparks.
2) Obama personally said no to Pontiac?
More like a decades long balance sheet showed what Pontiac was worth.
On the surface that would seem OK. Digging deeper, GM would need to duplicate advertising, some engineering, R&D and parts support, and dealer network communications. Whats more, the risk of missing the sales projections could also result in lost revenue. GM needs to get away from brand infighting. The Chevy as Pontiac is not a profitable venture, that’s already been proven and that’s why there is no more Pontiac.
@Brian_E: Unfortunately, that isn’t an acceptable position as far as I–as a Pontiac loyalist–am concerned. And I know I speak for many other Pontiac loyalists. And how do I know THAT? By visiting Pontiac-related websites for three years.
@dontbelate2: That was precisely my understanding, too. As I recall, Henderson said it was “a very personal decision” to kill Pontiac. That doesn’t sound like he was eager to dump the brand. It was my understanding, too, that it was the FEDS who twisted his arm. There’s no way that a strong brand like Pontiac–with such a large fanbase–would be dumped by Henderson willingly. His arm was twisted.
Henderson? Did you seriously mention Henderson? Anyone who knows anything about the bailout understands that Fritz had nothing to do with anything during the reorg. I don’t want to call him a puppet (out of respect), but he was close to it.
Here’s how it went down: there was a task force of about 30-something people. Business people, to whom numbers are the beginning and the end. No one twisted any arms, legs, or other body parts. It was a black and white numbers-based decision, plain and simple. You know — facts, not opinions or feelings, but pure business decisions. But those don’t seem to resonate with you, so why even bother?
@Alex Luft: YES, I said Henderson. What the hell, he was CEO of GM. Doesn’t that mean ANYTHING? So it didn’t matter that the CEO of GM said that killing Pontiac was “a very personal decision”? Henderson wasn’t just another member of that “Gang of 30” that you mention. He was CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER. Was anyone in that group of 30 higher than Henderson?
He was CEO for something like 7 months. The reorg committee was looking at numbers and revenue potential. Are you starting to get the picture?
@Alex Luft: Don’t forget that Henderson was a victim of the Great Recession. He happened to be CEO at an inopportune time.
You’re incorrectly referring to Henderson, when you should be referring to Wagoner.
@Alex Luft: Well, you’re right, since Henderson took over in March ’09. But Henderson had been COO and CFO prior to that, and he was the one who had to announce the demise of Pontiac.
I could be wrong but at this point I think it would be cheaper to start a new brand then try to resurrect a dead one? Think of all the Time and Money it would take.
I know a little about this I use to work for CompUSA. TigerDirect acquired the company a few years ago and gave up trying to resurrect it. It was going to costing them too much and it was taking too long.
From what I remember reading Bob Lutz was trying to turn Pontiac into a niche brand with only rear wheel drive cars. That would have been great.
I can relate to the people in the form that are so upset for losing their brand. We own two Saturn’s and at the end of the day I can understand why GM had to shut them down. Sacrifices had to be made. From what I remember reading out of the 4 brands GM had to dump only one of them made money and that was Hummer. I also remember reading that the administration forced GM to shut it down just to help them with their environmental initiative.
Just because Pontiac is gone does not mean we can’t convince GM to bring a little bit of that brand into its existing lineups. I think this is happening today with the introduction of the SS.
I guess the question is would Pontiac loyalist not buy this car just because it does not have a Pontiac badge on it?
I would hope everyone out there has GM’s best interest at heart.
I mean no disrespect to anyone out there. I guess I am just typing out loud 🙂
@Daniel Hana: Thank you for your thoughtful and considerate comment. Unfortunately, I speak for many Pontiac loyalists who were loyal to GM ONLY because of Pontiac. In other words, if GM doesn’t revive Pontiac, our loyalty to GM is dead, too.
If that is the case try to stick with a American brand 🙂 and please don’t stop commenting at GM Authority we will all miss you guys !!!
@Daniel Hana: Oh, absolutely. If GM doesn’t revive Pontiac, I WILL switch away to another automaker, but it will be an American automaker (Chrysler Group or Ford. That is, if Chrysler can still be considered American, given that it’s now run by Fiat.).
CAUTION SARCESM AHEAD IF YOU ARE EASY TO OFFEND STOP READING NOW!
Time to throw some gas on the fire.
Who thinks it’s time to bring back Oakland now that the brand that murdered it is gone?
Oh boy! That’s not for the easily offended!
I’m thinking that GM should just outright being back:
Pontiac
Olds
Hummer
Saturn
Welch
Cartercar
Elmore
Bedford
Marquette
Peninsular
Samson… and Geo
Also, GM should buy back Saab and resurrect it.
All of these brands had a very loyal following… although some of their audience may not be very active online anymore…
I agree. I KNOW that Saab is a very strong brand with a huge fanbase.
How do I know? Because I once visted an online Saab Forum and looked at the total number of registered users.
There you have it. Just by visting a website lets you make qualified judgement calls on the size of a fanbase, and more importantly, able to qualify just how many of those people WILL buy new car, specifically a Saab.
At the time, only 2 were on the forum and posting, but there was over 5000 registered users, some of which have made 1 post since registering!!! That 5000 GAR-UN-TEED new Saab buyers that GM is ignoring!
But I know personally that it was an inside job. GM wanted to keep such a strong brand such as Saab, but it was Obama (who previously owned Volvo’s) who killed it.
All true BTW.
Oh, it’s absolutely true. Especially that part about Obama being a Volvo loyalist. I read that on numerous forums, which irrefutably proves the genuine nature of the fact. Also, Henderson had something to do with it – I read that on a forum too.
And now that GM MURDERED Saab, I have absolutely no interest in GM’s other vehicles. The fact that new GM products like the Chevy Malibu and Buick Regal are better than any Saab could have hoped to be is beside the point. I live and die by the badge on my vehicle and impose my economic sanctions as such!
@Alex Luft: Again, your attempt at sarcasm is both childish, and damaging to your credibility. Obama was a Volvo loyalist? Wasn’t his last vehicle (before becoming President) a Chrysler? And, what connection did Henderson have to Volvo? And finally, yes: There’s no vehicle that Chevy OR Buick could build, that could keep me from going to a non-GM automaker should Pontiac not be revived.
Oh golly! My credibility is damaged… says a person who takes information into one ear and then proceeds to exert it out the other. No matter what you think, it’s funny. Why? Because it is.
@Alex Luft: So I should take YOUR information “into one ear” and then “proceed to exert it out the other”? Frankly, I see no humor there.
@Grawdaddy: Consider the following:
1. SAAB wasn’t an American brand, in the sense that Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac were (despite GM’s ownership of it).
2. You’re telling us that SAAB’s following is as large as Pontiac’s?
3, It seems to me that your attempt at sarcasm is both childish, and damaging to your credibility.
@Moanalua
“SAAB wasn’t an American brand, in the sense that Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac were”
Got news for you, chief. Pontiac, Buick, and Chevrolet aren’t even American any more. In fact, you’ll be hard pressed to call any car from any nation 100% *insert nationality here* anymore.
The autoindustry is a global enterprise. Case in point, the Chevy Orlando. Is it American, or not American?
It’s a car with a badge dating from a time when the nations economic system could support a dedicated “in house” manufactuing system. Times have changed, and car parts come from every corner of the globe.
What you’re looking for it a modern-day “ship of theseus” – a core part that makes a car American/Japanese/Korean/German etc. The bad news for you is that there is no such “core part” and that the world has moved on petty things like where the factory is located.
Fun fact, BMW X5’s are made in the US, Mexico, and Russia, and in not in Germany. Chew on that fact.
“You’re telling us that SAAB’s following is as large as Pontiac’s?”
Did you miss the “Save Saab” following on FB? Perhaps you missed this photo:
http://saabworld.net/attachments/f85/6371d1320685648-saab-reorganization-news-thread-500x_save_saab.jpg
And this one.
http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/Save_Saab-500×302.jpg
And this one too:
http://www.saabsunited.com/saab_campaigns/upload/images2010/01/saab_support_convoy_-_malaysia/SAVE%20SAAB_782x400.jpg
This one is important too:
http://www.embarcaderoauto.com/savesaab/JPG%20save%20saab%20print%20ad.jpg
I’m sure you can google the rest. While you’re at it, you won’t have to bother with googling “save pontiac” as I’m sure you can guess how there isn’t much to compare to what “Save Saab” repersented.
I doubt that Pontiac fans could even mobilize as quickly and as effiecently as the Saab fans did.
“It seems to me that your attempt at sarcasm is both childish, and damaging to your credibility.”
Says someone who genuinely belives Pontiac existed as if it were person and not as the object that it was.
It is grossly unhealthy to “live inside a brand”.
@Grawdaddy: Yes, most cars have components from a number of countries. Still, Pontiac was considered an American brand. Would you challenge that?
And suppose that SAAB does have as large a following–or even, larger–than Pontiac’s. That’s fine with me. My concern is with Pontiac.
Who said Pontiac (the car brand) was a person? Who said it wasn’t an “object”?
Finally, are you suggesting that every Pontiac loyalist who wants the brand back is “grossly unhealthy” for “living inside a brand”? Come on. Enough of the pop psychology.
@Alex Luft: So you’re saying that Welch, Cartercar, Elmore, Bedford, Marquette, Peninsular, and Samson have “very loyal followings” RIGHT NOW, as Pontiac does? Sounds like you’re cutting-off your nose to spite your face, just to be “cutely sarcastic.” I think does something to your credibility, too.
@MW: Isn’t that more lame than it is sarcastic? You’re suggesting that Oakland has a better chance of returning than Pontiac?
The only thing “lame” here is u and ur comments. Score! I got the final word! Aahahahahahahahaha
@Silent Electrician: VERY good. I admire your maturity.
No you foolish man, I was imitating you.
You have chased away the only remaining voices of reason in the discussion because you always must have the last word and repeatedly shell out absurd arguments.
The joke is on you. You just don’t have the maturity to realize it. I feel sorry for your loss, but you need to grow up.
@Silent Electrician: So you’re implying that I’M the immature one? Show me the proof. Compare your posts with mine. And I “always have to have the last word”? Look who’s talking. And explain how my arguments are “absurd.” You haven’t even MADE any arguments. The audience can decide who “doesn’t have the maturity,” and who needs to “grow up.”
Moanalua – you still don’t get it. Youre a lunatic and a fool and nothing anyone can do will “prove” that to you because you don’t LISTEN. Again, you do not listen. Did you hear that?
I have been following your insanities for the last several posts/threads/etc and am afraid to admit that I agreed with you at first. I was a Pontiac guy when it was around but enough is enough. It’s ovah. Time to move on.
Why don’t you give the whole thread a reading over? After doing so, you will see that you have alienated every sane person here to a point that they no longer wish to engage in discussing this topic with you. You keep bringing up the same bullshit over and over and over again no matter if someone has already disproven your idiotic and immature theories.
Hence I don’t need to make any arguments because all the valid ones have been exhausted here and elsewhere. The “audience” some of who are very patient (Brian, Daniel, Alex) has left you here to talk to yourself. If you have at least two brain cells, you will understand who is the immature one of the bunch. Hint: its you!
@Silent Electrician: No, YOU don’t get it. What’s your problem? I’m just a Pontiac loyalist who wants his brand back, like hundreds–if not thousands–of other Pontiac loyalist. If you have given-up on Pontiac, that’s YOUR choice. Don’t criticize others who are keeping the faith. You’ve been resorting to name-calling and insults from the start. And for your information, I HAD given the thread a reading-over, last Thursday. If you have nothing constructive to say, perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself.
Perhaps you should keep your ridiculous opinions to yourself. Why? Because your “faith” lies in blind arguments and faulty reasoning. Every argument you have presented and reporteldy re-read is pure rubbish.
Your biggest argument is that Pontiac outsold Buick at the time of its demise. And that is a most absurd of arguments.
Its like saying that Scion outsold Lexus, so when deciding to kill Scion or Lexus, Toyota should chose to kill Lexus because it sold less than Scion in 2011. That is pure absurdity especially coming from a supposed business major who fancies himself a scholar.
I am perfectly happy buying a Chevy product because any modern Chevy is better than any Pontiac ever was. That is the truth. My next car will be the SS Sedan assuming I can get it for less than 45,000. My current car is the G8.
@Silent Electrician: You’re showing your lack of class and grace by referring to others’ arguments as “pure rubbish.” Unfortunately, such crass and rude comments–and you’ve made a habit of making them–say very little for your character.
The fact of the matter is that when Pontiac was shut down, Pontiac was #3 at GM, while Buick was #4. What part of THAT don’t you get? By the way, as I had mentioned earlier, I had re-read this thread last Thursday. Right after that, I visited some other Pontiac-related threads. AGAIN, I read comments by other Pontiac loyalists that it should have been Buick that was shut down, not Pontiac. Instead of bad-mouthing people, why don’t you read some of those other threads yourself. Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, and do some reading.
If you are perfectly happy purchasing a Chevy, good for you. However, I think it’s pretty ignorant of you to say that “any modern Chevy is better than any Pontiac ever was.” You’re bias is clearly evident. Not only is that comment inflammatory, it’s almost ridiculous. Chevy and Pontiac were sister divisions at GM. It’s been mentioned on this thread that the two brands are very similar: In fact, SO similar that some claim Pontiac was taking sales from Chevy. It’s patently ridiculous to say that one GM brand was “better” than another GM brand at any given point in time. Don’t tell us that an ’09 Chevy, for example, was “better” than the equivalent ’09 Pontiac. Not only that, the term “better” is subjective and normative. What might be “better” to one person, might be “worse” to another.
@ Moans alot
Your arguments are rubbish because theyve been proven false repeatedly and all you do is dance around the subject and twist things to fit your pov.
The fact of the matter is that Pontiac was NOT #3 in profits. Sales don’t bring profits if you have to sell them at a loss – which they did.
If you’re going to keep telling us to google BringBackPontiac then you better start posting some hard figures. I did google it and all I found is 3 or 4 ACTIVE sites that are still pissing into the wind about this. You’re on all of them and you’re the one comparing Buick to Pontiac repeatedly. 2 or 3 others have mentioned it, but you’re the one repeating it over and over and over again. You’re worse than Faux News with distorting unrelated facts. Bring some hard numbers and links to prove me wrong or you’re just spreading lies. if you say that you don’t have to provide hard numbers then it proves me right.
And finally, your reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking.
S-E didn’t compare ’09 Chevy to ’09 Pontiac. He compared MODERN chevy – ie post bancruptcy GM – to Pontiacs.
And if you say that new and better pontiacs could be made as rebadges of chevies stop right there, because you know damn well that gm isn’t going to do waste resources like that.
People have tried to be civil with you but some of us lack the restraint.
@ moANALua. I can tell you are new here so I will leave instructions.
Oakland and Pontiac ain’t coming back the only that will be back is Schwarzenegger. END OF JOKE INSERT LAUGHTER HERE!
Saab is not dead and neither is Elvis they’re both living quietly near the golf course at area 51.
Is Pontiac their neighbor?
LOL you guys are to much. O o and they only come out when Saturn is in direct alignment with earth hahahah 🙂
Thanks it’s nice to be appreciated.
@Main Wayne: Unlike dead people, dead car brands CAN be brought back to life.
I see dead cars.
Last I heard he was living under an overpass of I 39 near Pontiac Illinois.
I wonder if Chrysler went through this when they ditched Plymouth? Or Ford, when they ditched Mercury?
Had several pontaics never thought of them as rebadged chevys always thought they stood on there own Based on this fourm you can lots of us still care for pontiac
@dontbelate2: Absolutely. I myself have owned NINE Pontiacs, and even the one that’s basically a re-badged Chevy is STILL OFFICIALLY a Pontiac. A Pontiac is a Pontiac, whether it’s a re-badged Chevy or not. And, you’re absolutely correct when you say lots of us still care for Pontiac. And you haven’t seen anything yet: Try Googling “Bring Back Pontiac”, and see what you get.
If I beg, will someone kill this thread? I can’t keep seeing emails from well-informed, reasonable people followed by lengthy protestations and rants repeating the same points of view. No one is going to change their mind at this point. You know who you are.
Enough guys. The horse has been beaten to death many times. Poor horse. Let’s talk about something new. Please??
@Todd Bianco: Believe it or not, I’m probably just as exasperated as you are. I open my e-mail inbox, and I find posts that rudely trash Pontiac and/or me. I’m a Pontiac loyalist. I’d like to defend the brand and promote its return. Also, look at the title of this thread: It’s, “Poll: Should GM Bring Back Pontiac?” If Pontiac’s demise is a “dead horse,” then with that kind of title, it’s probably going to keep on getting beaten. It probably wouldn’t be so bad if people on this thread would discuss the matter in a civil fashion. Instead, look at the rudeness that some of them display. They stoop to personal attacks, and use terms that border on the obscene.
@Vocal Mechanic:
1. Pontiac outsold Buick two-to-one. Is that a hard fact, or isn’t it. Yes, it’s true that sales do not necessarily equal profits. What you’re ignoring is that sales represent DEMAND, MARKET DEMAND. You claim to have read those threads and websites under “Bring Back Pontiac”. Then you should have deduced that THAT’S why so many Pontiac loyalists are up in arms about the brand’s demise.
2. OBVIOUSLY, a ’12 Chevy might be superior to an ’09 Pontiac. Not only would the Chevy be three years newer, it would have benefited from three years’ worth of technological/engineering advances. Comparing a new Chevy to even an ’09 Pontiac is therefore like comparing apples to oranges. That’s not a level playing field.
3. Finally, YOUR lack of “civil restraint” is obvious. You should start taking your own advice. Your post was fairly rude, and should invite a similarly unrestrained response. I’m not going to stoop to that level.
I haven’t heard anybody talk about the results of the poll, which is the main point of this thread in the first place. Obviously the general public would like to see pontac around.
No, just the people as found on a GM website where (obviously) there percentage of pro-Pontiac people are highest. You can’t take the results of a non-scientific poll of 630 odd people and use it as a reliable gauge of a car driving/buying/owning population of North America.
If you take the above poll outside GMA, I’m more than certain you’ll find that hardly anyone will care about Pontiac to want to see its return.
@Grawdaddy:
1. The sample size is now 641.
2. Why would it be that a GM website would have more pro-Pontiac folks? This isn’t the BringPontiacBack.org website. Further, as someone mentioned on another thread, Pontiac is part of “old GM” (or so them claim). So even more so, why would there be more pro-Pontiac folks on this website? I would assume that a website entitled, “GM Authority”, would be considered “new GM.”
3. If the poll is “non-scientific,” why would that favor Pontiac? Why aren’t the results “non-scientifically” AGAINST Pontiac’s return?
4. At what point would the poll be statistically significant? And, as the sample size climbs each week, the poll becomes statistically more valid.
What makes you say that? Judjung by the comments it seems the percentage of pro-Pontiac people is only about 3%. I dont see many pro-pontiac activists fighting a war on gm authority (maybe a few) but the point is that over 2 thirds of the poll results show people think gm should bring back pontiac.
@pontiac04gt: Good point. And I would think that that would cut AGAINST the argument that somehow the poll has “a high percentage of pro-Pontiac people.” Therefore, I’m inclined to believe that the poll is fair enough, and not slanted or loaded in favor of Pontiac. The majority has spoken: GM SHOULD bring back Pontiac.
@pontiac04gt: Exactly. I checked just a few seconds ago, and I saw roughly 74% FOR, and 24% against.
Dang. Correction: Make that 76% for.
Just had some one with 2012 camaro redone to look like 77/78 tran am complete with honeycomb ( gold ) wheels stop by my work must say car looked like the real deal that car alone should be reason to bring back pontaic
@dontbelate2: That’s interesting. I had a ’77 Trans Am with snowflake rims. I think the last year for the honeycomb rims was ’74.
For All of you who said No you are missing why we all are saying yes, Pontiac Started American Muscle without it American motors is nothing, After Pontiac, all other automotive companies fought to top it out.
Maximo, you are missing why everyone is saying no.
History does not equal the future. Whatever Pontiac may have done (which is disputable at best) nearly half a century ago doesn’t matter in today’s completely different automotive environment.
also I would like to point out that one of the most well known muscle cars made the Chevy Chevelle started production earlier then the Pontiac GTO and for Pony cars we all know that the Mustang started that off. So that disproves that pontiac started muscle cars. Silent is absolutely right about bringing back Pontiac, but bringing another brand to introduce cars made by Opel would be a good idea, possibly introducing Opel as a stand alone entry level luxury brand, with a Insignia Designed Verano (meaning that the design language would be based off of the Insignia, and not the Astra) so that they can still have a sub compact car , the Insignia, the Captiva Sport, the Mokka, an Opel full sized, and the Buick Enclave rebadged into an Opel, then introducing the Adam, the Corsa the Astra as a stand alone brand possibly under Vauxhall. Or under different names.
@Maximo: You are correct. A “musclecar” was officially defined as a MIDSIZE auto with a V8 engine and four-barrel carburetion or more. By that definition, the Pontiac GTO was indeed the first musclecar. Prior to that, Ford did have full-size autos with V8s and multi-carburetion. But that’s not how a musclecar was defined. Besides, Pontiac also already had its own full-size auto with a V8 and multi-carburetion: The Catalina.
Are you saying because Pontiac took the Tempest and turned it into a GTO, they started American muscle. If I recall, Ford started the American muscle genre, THEN Pontiac ollowed with the GTO. Pontiac came out with some good muscle cars, but they sure didn’t start the muscle trend in my books.
I think PONTIAC should be a independent company and build muscle/sports/super cars to compete with NOBLE, LOTUS, SALEEN ETC.
How many of those are profitable and/or viable businesses?
@Brad: Thank you for being a member of the majority, who believe Pontiac SHOULD return. However, I would prefer that Pontiac return as a GM brand, as it always was. GM has always been linked to GM, and vice versa.
Darn! ANOTHER error. What I meant to say was, GM has always been linked to PONTIAC, and vice versa.
the opel adam as the pontaic lemans ??
No, the last thing we need is more opels. opels suck, thats why most of the current buick lieup sucks. We need american cars badged as american cars. american cars with excitement and flare. The only possible exception would be the g8, because thats a great car, thanks to a little help from the austrailians and a huge american V8.
@Pontiac04GT … says the guy who has no understanding of the luxury car market, or of any automotive market whatsoever. Good one!
@pontiac04gt: Agreed. Pontiac has always been an American brand, and personally I’d like it to return as such. I’d hate to see, say, Geely purchase the brand.
Most of Buick’s line up is from Opel? What are you smoking? The last time I checked, only ONE of Buick’s models is an Opel. And from my perspective, that car, the Regal is a fine automobile. Take it from me as I own a 2012 Regal GS and currently have 10,638 miles of actual drive time behind the wheel and not speculations. If Buick’s don’t suit your taste, go hit up Chevy. Don’t just say Buick’s suck because you are mad that they survived. Buick’s current line up is nice and has some well crafted cars.
it would fun to see pontiac build dream cars that other G.M.brands can’t in small numbers
@dontbelate2: Absolutely. Perhaps models along the lines of the G8 and the Solstice. Both models were built in relatively small numbers. And while Saturn built the Sky–which was essentially the same as the Solstice– Saturn is gone. So, GM should revive Pontiac and perhaps offer models along the lines of the G8 and Solstice.
saw a solstice coupe last friday ( 7/20 ) @ work and though what a sharp little car
@dontbelate2: There’s a guy about seven blocks away from where I live, who owns a red Solstice. It’s in very good condition, despite the fact that the guy doesn’t have a garage, and doesn’t use a car cover. He just parks the car on the concrete driveway fronting his home. I enjoy seeing the car when I walk past on occasion.
It should have been picked up by Buick and sold as a Reatta. And when it was a Pontiac, it should have been called a Fiero.
I wouldn’t have wanted Buick to pick it up. Once a Pontiac, always a Pontiac. I’d like Pontiac to return and offer the Solstice again. Now that NUMMI is gone, a revived Pontiac Solstice would be different. I’d have been OK if Pontiac had named it Fiero, since the original Fiero had stopped being offered in 1988.
someone should independently buy the pontiac brand and start building pure american pontiac power
@todmc: Thank you for your desire to see Pontiac return. I’m a Pontiac loyalist myself, but I would prefer that GM simply revive the brand rather than sell it. Pontiac was always a GM brand; it’s part of Pontiac’s history and personality. I would hope to see it return as a GM brand.
Although I fundamentally disagree with government involving itself in the inner-workings of corporations, the best thing to happen to GM in my lifetime was their being forced to reorganize. The company is much more focused and is now producing top quality products.
As for the brands under the GM banner, it was long overdue for the company to retract in sheer size. GM fairly well proved that “brand engineering” is a non-starter in the auto industry. Choosing which brands to cut was also a no-brainer in my view.
When GM bought Saab, it was all about adding a European footprint and competing with Ford (who purchased Volvo). This business move proved that directly competing with a rival move-for-move is simply asinine and sure to be a money loser. When GM purchased Hummer every sane person on the planet could see huge price increases at the pump on the horizon, but apparently not GM management. When GM created Saturn as the American Opel, the initial products were laughable. These are the sorts of products a large corporation pumps out when they get big eyes pining over expansion and global domination.
No, GM should not…no, they CAN NOT bring back any now-dead brand they once produced. None of the nostalgic posts longing for the return of Pontiac lament the loss of the Aztec or Fiero (and many others). Why? Simply because they were failed products, pushed through the developmental stages in order to get a product to market.
The current mix of GM product/brand lineups is working very nicely. The sheer volume has been trimmed to a much more manageable level and the current brands are quite different from each other drawing a larger scope buyers to GM dealerships. Buick, Cadillac, and Chevrolet are functioning in harmony. However, GM as a brand simply duplicates the Chevy truck line. From various sources, this is because the Chevy and GM truck sales combined typically oust the Ford, but alone they do not.
So keep up the stout work GM! Fight the pull to expand and maintain that newly honed laser focus!
@Steve:
1. I’m afraid you’re in the minority on this poll.
2. As far as Pontiac loyalists are concerned, GM isn’t doing well unless Pontiac returns. We are loyal to PONTIAC, NOT GM.
3. GM CAN revive Pontiac. There would be nothing illegal about doing so.
4. You can tell GM to “fight the pull to expand.” We Pontiac loyalists–and the majority of respondents to the poll–will fight to get GM to expand.
Yes, Trans Am. Across American, it is and American car. Even if it means taking the Corvette of the producting line, which it shouldbe, and made an exotic placed in the class with the Lambos and Ferarri. You put the Trans Am in the class with the porsche, and let the Camaro have its way with the Mustang…
@RJ: That’s a neat idea. However, I’d prefer that both the Camaro AND the Trans Am gang-up on the Mustang. After all, that’s how it had always been, as all three are pony cars.
On Aug 12, 2012, at 1:47 PM, [email protected] wrote:
The only problem with the Trans Am and the Camaro in the same class is, that puts them in competition, WITH EACH OTHER. So in a sense you have the one Ford car tying up the focus of two GM products. From the Mustang and Ford stand point, that’s a win. Also, you get Gm Vs GM when you look at it from a Camaro or Trans Am stand point. GM should not be competing with GM. And heavens forbids the Stang topples both. I mean you have Ford spending 20 grand to make one Mustang, while GM is spending 25 grand to make one Camaro, and about 30 grand to make a Trans Am. Ford is spending 20 grand, while GM counters by spending 55 grand, almost three times as much to do battle with one car, not to mention battling one’s self as long as they are in the same class. Not a good Focus, not a good Strategy, and not a good Vision. Poor money management. No more same class muscle cars.
Adding the Trans Am, the Vette would no longer be on the production line, instead you would have to order the Corvette. The Trans Am would be GM’s top of the line muscle production car, with a progressive look (not retro). It must be crafted with quality in mind, an only in the United States. This gives us a chance to go after some of the European market. Audi, Porsche, and the Nissan GTR have a new challenger. Given the vision is for a lighter, quicker accelerating, more responsive, all-wheel driven car, the Trans am might be a quicker 1/4 mile car, and may be strong enough to leg over a faster mile time.
Class is important. We can’t continue to compete against ourselves. The Camaro, Trans Am and the Vette must be in different classes. They don’t have to be the fastest car in their class, although the Trans Am has to be able to hold its own up against a Porsche, they have to be great buys. Meaning the Vette should remain a great buy for the power it offers compared to the Ferraris, and Lambos. The Trans Am doesn’t have to be faster than the Porsche, but at just over 55 Gs it has to be able to stand up in that class, and offer a great ride. Make Europeans want to buy this car. The same for the Camaro, it doesn’t have to be as fast as the Stang, but it has to be a bargain, making Americans want this car over the Mustang.
The Trans Am would have to most work to do. In my mind it would have to be lighter, quicker and faster than the Camaro. All Wheel Drive will help in that aspect. It has to handle better and corner better. In short it has to be more responsive. Now putting the Vette in the Lambo class, and we know Porsche runs real close to that class. We don’t want the T/A to be in that class, but it has to run with the Porsche. So should the focus not be so much on 0-60 instead 0-120. Top end just over 205 mph, moving the Vette up to 220, with the Vette’s focus being 0-to top speed. However, safety and braking must be part of the focus.
We have to have a strategy, we should never again return to the days of competing against each other. Only after we have cornered the market then we compete against ourselves, but until then the strategy should be as it is in any competition, force your opponent to bend to your demands. Ford has launched a Stang with the intent to challenge the Vette, as if to say we are done with the Local US title and battling the Camaro, we are after the big fish. We have to get back into the fight and we do it by sending a clear message. The message is long before you get to the Vette, there is still another line of DEFENSE. The Trans Am…. Clearly putting the Mustang back in its place.
This move give GM muscle two cars on the world platform. The vision going forward has to be absolute. America first, for GM. Yes, I understand you are a global company, but you have to pledge allegiance to something and I would think US first. No more Saab, no upstarts like Saturn. Also, no more five different types of Corvettes, just two, (Z06, and ZR1). Just two Trans Ams (the Trans Am, and the WS6 Firehawk). No six different types of Camaros just two, (Camaro SS, and the Z28 ZL1). And for individuals who want one of these cars just as a status and not for the muscle, you could special order a Grand Sport Corvette with 430 horses, or a 6 cylinder Firebird, or Camaro with 350 horses. But these cars will not be on the production line. The vision going into the production budget is for four muscle cars. Anything else will be special ordered.
America is going through some tough times, and I know you all have as well. I know Canada gave you some bailout money, but Obama and the American people (main street) gave you the most. So its time to give back, and that is how your commercial should start. When the chips were down a US President and main street came to our aid: with a black screen as the background: then you hear the roar of the engine being revved up. The narrator goes on to say; this is not the rebirth; for the Phoenix never dies, this is the RETURN, then it becomes real when you hear the Pontiac shriek.
Focus, strategy, and vision: those should be the words going forward. Focus on your competition, know what they are doing. Strategy always giving just a little bit more that your competitors; we want to win. Vision, to be the absolute best: period. And since I have your ear (eyes) could I add suggesting. I am a honorable retired veteran, who works on a military installation. At least once a day I have to show some identification to gain access to the base at which I work. Is it possible to produce a driver side friendly door? Meaning could you add a feature to the drive side door; a pocket holder for ID Cards. Thanks for your time…Bring me back to GM, PLEASE,
Randolph Johnson
@RJ: OK. You’ve made a pretty good case. Actually, as long as Pontiac returns, I’ll be satisfied. If the Trans Am returns–in ANY fashion–so much the better.
Meanwhile back on earth…………………
Drives like a caddy. Killing it made my collection sky rocket in value for years to come! Pontiac is the most stylish product to ever leave GM! I see people driving them everyday ! There won’t be any excitement for years to come. Let’s see what happens when the bail out loan gets paid off in 2016! Politics killed Pontiac , I don’t see any Eco friendly camero or caddys at the dealership !
Mark — the base Camaro LS gets 29 MPG on the highway. Cadillac is a performance luxury brand; no point of “Eco” anything there.
@Mark: Even THEN,first Akerson will have to go. He’s against Pontiac returning.
There is no bailout loan. Take a looky
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/04/gm-bailout-numbers/
Excitement can be achieved with Chevy. Why are we still talking about this?
@Silent Electrician: I think we’re still talking about this because we Pontiac loyalists want excitement that’s achieved with PONTIAC.
Land yaught , why are there conversions?
I understand mpg / sports cars /no bail outs . I drive a Vw. Ive been @ 3 day pontiac show. Just like the old Pontiacs.. Hope to see an American icon make a ” comeback” some day.. It would be a Sighn that were all in a better world!
@Mark: Then we Pontiac loyalists are going to have to keep the pedal to the metal. We have to keep pressing for Pontiac’s return. There are a lot of people who want to keep Pontiac six feet under; some of them are on this thread, as you’ve surely noticed.
first off I am a Trans Am guy. But more important that that is a strategy that would allow GM to grow. Corvettes cost to much for the average middle class American. Make the Vette a special order vehicle.
Trans Am would be a cheaper car to put into production and what many GM execs don’t want is to move the Trans Am into the Porsche class, because it would hurt the European Market, the flip side is it would help the United States Economy. The Trans Am would crush the Porsche and Audi, yes they would probably be faster cars, but American muscle is in the quick rapid response, and the TA would would be quicker, have more style, and the Autobahn would be filled with them.
Instead GM in the past, engaged in a tactic of pitting two pony cars against Ford’s mustang. Who does that Gm spends three time as much in cars trying to keep pace with the Mustang. And at some point you are competing against yourself. You have two cars placed in the same class. Who was the exec that employed that strategy.
I could go on an talk about my love for the Trans Am, but why. GM will continue to be GM and do what it thinks that works like battling itself, when it needs to focus outward on the competition in the Auto industry. Pontiac Trans Am…
@RJ: I share your affection for the Trans Am. I’ve owned two: A ’77, and the ’84 I own now.
just saw a white pontaic g8 gt what a sweet car would love to see a second act
There is a second act. It’s called the SS:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/category/chevrolet/ss/
If you don’t want Pontiac back, then why are you even here. What, to deny others of what they want? What’s it to you? What piece of crap are you driving? It seems as if those who go on comment sections, just to drop there oh so important opinions, why don’t you instead, go to your 325 idols and harken some positive thoughts over there?
Personally I’m here because I want GM to succeed and because I think that the U.S. should have more than one very successful American automaker (Ford being the other). And to do that, Pontiac needed to go away to stop intruding on Chevy.
If Pontiac is to return, it needs to prove that it adds value to the customer outside of Chevy, something it didn’t to in its last years of existence. That’s all.
Pontiac didn’t intrude on Chevy. GM wanted it this way in hops of making more money but producing the same car just changing the chassis. fact is the Trans Am was killing the Corvette sells. Now if GM had Americans running the company they would have put the Vette in one class, the TA in another and the camaro in another.
It is clear to me what happen, make autos on the cheap and sell them to lazy Americans. In my eyes it wasn’t smart. You had the Mustang, camaro, and the Trans Am all in the same class. Well GM was making two cars to battle the mustang and the unintended class of the Trans Am vs the camaro. Ford did have to win that battle they just had to be in it. Look to make the Mustang it took Ford about 18 grand they sold it for 25 grand. To make a camaro it was about 22 grand, and they sold it for 30 grand, to make the Trans Am it took about 25 grand and Gm sold it for 35 grand. Doing the math Ford in its class would spend 18 grand to make its car. well in that same class GM would spend almost 50 grand. Not smart.
GM needs Americans with smart mind and those who puts Americans interest first…
“GM needs Americans with smart mind and those who puts Americans interest first…”
No. GM needs smart business people who understand how to profitably run a company in the long run, GLOBALLY.
In my family we drive the following:
2001 Grand Prix
1972 Grand Prix
1972 Firebird Formula
1975 Trans Am
2006 Soltstice
(and a Pontiac powered rat rod)
Would I like for Pontiac to come back? Yes, BUT ONLY IF they could truly honor and represent the legacy and image they created in the 1960’s. Since they can’t and Chevrolet is providing the affordable performance, there is not a niche for Pontiac without conflicting with Chevrolet. GM doesn’t want infighting anymore, the market is too crowded to support it.
A far as ‘denying what others want’. How long do you let your daughter believe she can have that unicorn?
There would be no infighting. And if GM is tired of in fighting why didn’t they know that was bound to happen. You can’t put the Trans Am and the camaro in the same class. Who ever bought off on that should have never been a manager.
I propose you take the Corvette, the V-6 Firebird, and the V-6 Camaro on a special order line. You take the camaro and put it in the class with the mustang.
You take the trans am and put it in the class with the Porsche, Audi and the Nissan GT-R. But GM refuse to do this because the company is loaded with foreigners at the top and they like nothign more than raking Americans over the coals. If this company was run by Americans they would go on the attack and sell our cars on other markets like the Audi sells in America, like the Kia sells in America, like the Porsche sells in American. Europeans and Aussie lead GM this is why they are slow to aid our American economy buy selling American cars on foreign markets. They know our cars would sell overseas.
Put me incharge of this company, and I would have to be the headman, I just need to be in a place to freely make decisions and this company would smash the competition, and American workers would be taken care of…
RJ are you serious? Do you even know who is “running” GM nowadays? You refer to them as foreigners but fail to understand that business today is global, not national.
Here’s another gem:
“Europeans and Aussie lead GM this is why they are slow to aid our American economy buy selling American cars on foreign markets. They know our cars would sell overseas.”
“Our cars” are selling overseas. They’re global cars. A Malibu is a Malibu in the U.S. and everywhere else. The same for the Cruze, Sonic/Aveo, Spark. The list goes on.
Then you refer to Pontiac as playing in the same league as $80,000+ sports cars. Who are you kidding? No one would buy a Pontiac over a comparable Porsche, Audi or GT-R.
Yea I know who running the company, and I know where he is running it, in the ground. Look for the longest Lutz had a big hand in the company a guy from a far away land, who was not an American. I know they had a female Canadian in charge of the Pontiac division. I know Aussies run the Hilden arm of the division.
I also, know I was stationed in the UK for eight years and our cars sold. I had a guy buy a Camaro, took it to Ireland within to week of buying it and he made 20 grand on the car. Our vehicles sell. You just have to know what you are doing to sell them in Europe. You can just give then a gas guzzler without muscle. The porsche is a V-6 with muscle, so to combat that the gas guzzling V-8 Trans Am which now gets better gas mileage if you don’t stand on it would do well overseas. 65 thousand dollar Trans Am with 600 horses would do well in europe, but you will never know until we give it a shot. But of course, like I stated, to many other than Americans running this company…
@RJ: Attaboy. Incidentally, I think a car like the G8 would certainly hold its own against overpriced European models that cost more than twice as much, yet don’t perform that much better. And I think you’re right about GM behaving in un-American ways, despite being an American company. How about GM stiffing Pontiac’s American customers, in favor of Buick’s Chinese customers. Never mind that Pontiac was outselling Buick two-to-one here in the US, was offering more models than Buick was, was more iconic than Buick was, and had more potential than Buick did.
@Steve surgeont: Thank-you for your post. I see your exasperation, and God knows I share it. I’ve been doing battle with these anti-Pontiac naysayers on this thread and others for quite some time. Some of them claim they have GM’s best interests at heart. What these people don’t seem to understand is that for Pontiac loyalists like us, GM DOESN’T MATTER UNLESS it revives Pontiac. We’re loyal to PONTIAC, NOT GM.
@RJ: I wish it were within my power to make you GM’s CEO. Akerson HAS to go, because he refuses to revive Pontiac. My understanding is that he said that as long as he’s CEO, Pontiac won’t return. Therefore, it’s time for a new CEO.
WHERE ARE ALL THE PONTIAC LOVERS? Chevrolet’s are great for the working class masses who aren’t really concerned with the style or the looks of their vehicles, it’s about a budget! Other than the Vette,..? I mean what is a Camero without a Firebird? if you just need something to drive, well a Chevy will do. Buick’s, well they make some nice cars, if all you’re concerned about is transportation! Well there was the Riviera that they killed, why? Can’t tell you! And there was the “65” GS, & oh the Grand National & i almost forgot about the Reatta! GM took the bailout! & they killed Saturn & Pontiac in the process because the were thinking globally! But what all you Pontiac haters are forgetting is that they didn’t just try to kill Pontiac, they tried to kill us! Pontiac was as much Americana as Chevrolet ever thought of being! And all of you people who don’t appreciate what this means to us as Americans and don’t respect what the GTO or the “Smokies” Trans Am or my little GTO or the Solstice, the Gran Prix, the Le Mans, the Bonneville, the Catalina, & oh the G6,.. not my favorite ! but still the largest selling GM model IN THE U.S. before the bailout! I still see alot of Fieros’ on the road! Who is GM to dictate what we like? And I don’t know about what is going elsewhere, but every GM dealership seems to be getting a new facade at their place of business!I guess that must be Pontiac Or Saturn money! They are not Hollywood! They killed Saturn just as it was finally coming of age! Well they can try to kill Pontiac, But Pontiac will be alive in true Pontiac Lovers Hearts long after GM meets it’s DEMISE!
@Michael F. McMillen: That’s a BEAUTIFUL post, and I hear every word you said. When GM murdered Pontiac, I was murdered inside. After all, every vehicle I had ever owned had been a Pontiac. I’ve had a Le Mans, FIVE GTOs, a ’77 “Smokey” Trans Am, and I now own an ’84 Trans Am. Let’s not give-up on trying to get GM to revive Pontiac. But first, Akerson has to go, as he said Pontiac won’t return on his watch.
Michael, no disrespect, but your comments borders on misinformed and delusional. Have you even seen a modern Chevy? Trust me, it’s not all about budget. My colleague just got a new Cruze, the best-looking compact by a long shot. And this is coming from an American living (temporarily) in Germany.
And when and where was the G6 the best-selling GM model? Was it a money pit that “made it up in volume” (never happens)?
The world has changed and there is no place for Pontiac or Saturn anymore. Heck, there may not be a world for Opel in Europe soon enough, either.
Yes. GM. Needs to come back and re-innovate the GTO and TransAm.
My fellow Pontiac loyalists: In response to those who say, “there is no place…for Pontiac anymore…”, we need to rise-up and blow-up such a claim. When I Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, I see a PAGES of websites and threads. Someone on this thread attempted to chide that fact by saying that not all of the threads are active. My response to that is: When you’ve got pages of websites and threads, you CAN’T EXPECT all of them to be active. But many of them ARE active, and I know for a fact that Pontiac was the #3 brand at GM, and in Canada it was even more popular than it was here. I’m asking all fellow Pontiac loyalists who might be reading this, to loudly proclaim that there sure as heck still IS a place for Pontiac.
I think Pontiac’s problem was too many models. I believe certain cars like the Grand Am/Grand Prix sold very well and were very popular. But then comes the Aztek. Why? These decisions doomed Pontiac. GM should bring the brand back, streamlined and focused solely on what sold.
@Miguel: Well, lots of people pick on the Aztek. It’s design was certainly unusual, but not “ugly”; at least, not to me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As for Pontiac having “too many” models: The more models you have, the more customers/customer interest you draw. In fact, it was the Pontiac dealers who demanded that Pontiac produce a greater variety of models, as that boosted sales.
Really. And The Corvette doesn’t have to many models, nor does the Camaro, or we can sum it up by asking who has more models than Chevy.
What killed, ended the Trans Am was its ability to damage the sells of the Vette. Fact, and any strategist will be able to see that. What ended Pontiac was slashing the Trans Am. You took anyway the excitement in the excitement brand. And to show you just how much more effective the Trans Am is: GM REFUSE TO SELL PONTIAC. Because it knows the first car any buyer will Launch. they have so much invested in the Corvette and camaro, and they know the Trans Am will do to GM what Ford’s mustange has done to GM.
GM needs Americans who care about America in leadership. GM has sold its sole to the world, and is doing all it can to get back into the graces of Americans, yet it is hard for them to do it because some many at the top are from other nations, and they feel their alleigences to those nations, and that is commendable.
Peddling nonsense to the consumer is a joke. I have offered a solution to GM, and in true bureautic fashion they are slow to react. There is a street saying if you sleep on you will get crept on…Make the Vette a specail order vehicle, on par with the Lambo, and the Ferarris. Make the T/A the top of the line production car to challenge the European, and Asian vehicles. And make the Camaro on par with the Mustang.
And stop making ten production models of the same car. Special order 2 Vettes models, 2 production lined T/A and 2 production lined Camaros. Any other T/A or Camaro should be special ordered…
@RJ:
As a Pontiac loyalist who has owned two Trans Ams, I too was upset when Pontiac discontinued it.
For whatever other reasons GM didn’t sell the rights to Pontiac, I’m hoping that GM will REVIVE the brand, and SOON.
Let me tell you: When GM murdered Pontiac, GM certainly didn’t get into MY good graces as an American. In fact, it got me TOTALLY TICKED-OFF at GM.
GM has management problems, they have directional problems as well. They want to succeed. But they want every nation to succeed as well. while that is possible, you have to identify your number 1 customer. In my mind the American middle class is about the largest buyer bar none. That would be my focus, and I would grow outward from there always keeping my number 1 in mind…But this is me, and I am not the leader of this great, but misguided, trying to please every nation company…
@RJ: To Pontiac loyalists, GM certainly does have management problems, chief of which is right at the top. CEO Dan Akerson refuses to revive Pontiac, said it won’t happen on his watch. To Pontiac loyalists, then, he has to go.
I would agree that the American middle class is the largest car-buyer. Then, GM needs to revive Pontiac. Chevy is working class, Buick is mid-upper class. Pontiac was SOLIDLY middle class.
@RJ GM has management problems? Could you provide some examples? Which company doesn’t?
As far as the “#1 customer” topic, that kind of thinking is from the 1950s. Today’s global firms have the ability to serve multiple markets, segments, tastes, wants, needs, and other demographic/psychographic demands.
Again, the goal is profitability — which is accomplished by good global business practices.
@Moanalua When did Akerson say any of that? Have any links?
@Alex Luft: No, I can’t refer you to any links that PROVE Akerson said that. I’ve heard it second-hand from several folks on other Pontiac-related websites. If someone can DISPROVE that he said it, I’d be glad to hear it because I don’t ENJOY asking people to resign. It’s just that it’s my understanding that Akerson is an immovable barrier to Pontiac returning. Having said that…
If Pontiac were profitable before, I can’t see why it CAN’T be profitable again. It was the #3 brand at GM, was VERY popular in Canada, and has a large, loyal following. This website itself is testament to that last fact.
If GM claims that Pontiac would be a “barrier” to profitability, I’m simply going to take my business to a different automaker. That’s all there is to it.
@Moanalua The “Akerson said this/said that” is so inside baseball, that it doesn’t even make sense to discuss. Know how many things I’ve heard from people in the industry? Not sure any of them are true.
Other than that, I was under the impression that we’ve already mutually established that volume is not the same as profitability. Your last point is your prerogative.
@Alex Luft: Again, I said that the claim that Akerson said he won’t revive Pontiac IS hearsay, and again, I hope it IS incorrect. That would make Akerson NOT the immovable barrier to Pontiac’s return that I thought he is.
I think I speak for many–if not most–of the Pontiac loyalists when I say that we want Pontiac back. Period. I think we’ve also mutually established that if nothing else, volume = demand. It’s up to GM to FIND a way to make a revived Pontiac work. When you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, it’s apparent that there’s TOO much demand for Pontiac to disregard. Again, we want our brand back. Period.
They needed a bailout. I would think that is problems enough. Their stock price went all the way down to like under 60 bucks at one point. That is a problem. Mix in Non-Americans running the show when this company crashed. These people were allowed to retire from this AMERICAN company with huge retirement packages, while the hourly employee was asked to take a lessor offer. Where is the Patriotism in that. These managers make over six figures a year, many are non-Americans, and they retire with a seven figure package that includes stock optios. Really.
Ford avoided bailout asistance.
Putting America and Americans first is timeless. Its called Patriotism. I know this is a Global economy, but it is just like your household, you have to take care of it first befoe you can pay tithe, then give money for community assistance, and then for your city and then state. It all starts at home. Live globally all you want, my only request would be the next time you need a bailout, GO GLOBAL, before you ask for American taxpaying dollars…Think about those who pay your way. I mean the phrase “don’t bite the hand that feeds ya, a 1950’s phrase pretty timeless in my book; just like my thinking. Some things stand the test of time.
@RJ the problems at Old GM had nothing to do with “non Americans running” the company. It had nothing to do with patriotism or lack thereof. The problems stemmed from a lack of focus on leading (rather than following) and from a business agenda that was defined by expenses (bean counting), rather than profits.
None of these items are problematic at the New GM today.
Also, Ford did take bailout funds ($5.9 billion worth):
http://swampland.time.com/2011/09/30/what-the-controversial-ford-bailout-ad-got-wrong/
I loudly proclaim Bring Back Pontiac! Maybe when the government officials who helped kill it as part of the bailout will be gone soon.
@steve surgeont: Thank you for loudly proclaiming that! Full disclosure: I’m a Democrat, and voted for Obama. Yes, I know that his automotive task force had a lot to do with Pontiac’s murder, and I was furious about it. However, I’m pretty sure Obama didn’t PERSONALLY ask the task force to murder Pontiac. I don’t think Obama was personally anti-Pontiac specifically. On the other hand, he DID save GM, so at least it’s POSSIBLE for Pontiac to return. Remember: Romney would have let GM die. I mean, which is worse? If it weren’t for Obama, would THIS website–GM Authority–still exist? No GM = no GM Authority website, right? And even worse: It would be IMPOSSIBLE for Pontiac to return. Frankly, I think it’s more important that Akerson leave, than Obama lose the election. Akerson said Pontiac won’t return while he’s CEO.
If there is no Pontiac, There is no GM! Pontiac is the sexiest, sportiest, and best built product GM has! There is no loyalty at GM, only worldwide economics. Pontiac was a brand before there was ever a GM! Automobiles have always been an American domain. But no more! Go ahead GM! say you’re bigger than the GTO or the Trans Am or the Gran Prix, the Solstice, the Bonneville, the G6, … WTFE! Go ahead and sell off Americans! I’ll buy a Ford before I would ever buy a Chevy, because Chevy’s are like empty coke cans at best! SORRY COCA COLA! SCREW GM!
@michael mcmilen: That’s a GREAT post! Thank you. When GM murdered Pontiac rather than Buick (despite the fact that Pontiac outsold Buick two-to-one), GM PROSTITUTED itself to the Chinese. Why the HELL should we Pontiac loyalists be loyal to GM anymore? And, agreed: I will NEVER purchase a new GM vehicle unless GM revives Pontiac.
Accuracy is important and Mike Mac has gotten it right. GM took over Pontiac and made a strategic bet. Eliminate some American products and send resources overseas to make money in other nations. It is plainly clear what has happen here. And in the mist they KILLED AMERICAN JOBS and CARS. The best way to do this is place FOREIGN people in management roles.
WHY WON”T GM SELL PONTIAC? They have scrapped it, sell it allow another AMERICAN to take on this company. They want, because they know the TRANS AM and American ICON, who name means ACROSS AMERICA, would increase their competition. Camaro is getting beat by the Mustang, heaven forbid the Trans Am who could live in both classes, the Camaro, or the Corvette, would send GM over the rails.
GM should do what is right, the very best thing they could do is SHOW THEIR LOVE FOR AMERICANS, after all the most bailout assistance came from Americans. Don’t give us a psuedo Trans Am that you displayed at the SEMA carshow in October, give us a real bold looking new Trans Am, no retro fitted car, that could sell in Europe, in Japan. Put the Corvette in the special order category, and the Camaro needs to be the Domestic car of the future. But you can’t do any of this until you put Americans, who care about Americans in position to make decisions.
Understanding you are a global car company, I get that, but you also have to understand you have a very loyal customer base here. If you respect that base, it will allow you to do things in other nations. Meaning you can make your sports cars here in the US and create jobs for Americans, who will have the purchasing power to afford a 60,000 car, that probably cost you 42 grand to make. Giving you resources to send to other areas.
@RJ: Great post; thank you. I agree with everything you said, save one: GM selling Pontiac to another company, even an American one. I’ve been a loyal Pontiac customer for 35 years. As a GM brand, Pontiac had that “GM feeling.” A Pontiac brand revived by a company other than GM, wouldn’t be the same. To me, Pontiac had GM’s DNA; I would prefer to see the brand revived, but BY GM.
Sorry, Pontiac is probably gone for good. There is no room, now, for Pontiac in GM’s reorganized brand line up. Chevrolet would now handle any performance/sporty products as GM was wanting to do for a long time.
Your probably right, GM should sell Pontiac. Allow Americans to bring back the American Muscle car…
@RJ: If I may, I’d like to weigh-in against GM selling Pontiac. I’ve had EIGHT Pontiac musclecars: A ’67 GTO, a ’68 GTO, a ’69 GTO, two ’70 GTOs, a ’73 Firebird Formula 400, and a ’77 Trans Am. I now own an ’84 Trans Am. As GM vehicles, each of those musclecars had a “GM feeling.” I feel that a new Pontiac revived by a company OTHER than GM, would betray ALL Pontiac musclecars of the past. By all means, Pontiac SHOULD and MUST be revived, but BY GM. As that old GM parts commercial went: “Keep that great GM feeling…”
The way GM has played Pontiac like a pawn in a chest game. Naw, they have had their turn and they chose the Camaro. they could have brought the Trans Am back in front of the Camaro. No, the Trans Am is a King, the ACE.
GM could save face and sell the Company, or it could at least give us a glimpse into the FUTURE a FUTURE that includes the Trans Am.
@RJ: Thank-you for your love of the Trans Am; again, I myself have owned two, including the ’84 I own now. However, as much as I like the Trans Am, I like Pontiac the brand even more. I really simply can’t imagine a Pontiac brand revived by any automaker but GM. Can you imagine GEELY building new Pontiacs? I’ll PASS on that!
@K: I beg to disagree. Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, and see the many websites and threads you find. Pontiac has a large, loyal following throughout the US and Canada. That represents DEMAND, and demand should be met by supply. GM needs to MAKE ROOM ONCE AGAIN for Pontiac. For many Pontiac loyalists, Chevy will NOT do; not now, not ever. As a business, GM needs to RESPOND to the market demand for Pontiac.
@Moanalua
I know it is sad that Pontiac is gone, but there truly is no room in the “New” GM for Pontiac. If brands could be brought back, then GM would have bought back Olds, since they had the Cutlass Supreme, Rocket v-8 etc. It came down to parring down brands. That meant either Pontiac or Chevrolet, Buick or Olds, Caddy was separate. Obviously GM is going to support the brand that brings the most sales to them (in the US anyway) and that is Chevrolet.
Dealers who used to sell Pontiacs have virtually removed anything dealing with them, signifying Pontiac is gone. GM is holding onto the name, so that a competitor would not grab it, but they have practically no interest in reviving the brand.
I agree, GM will not bring back Pontiac. WHY NOT SELL IT? GM is parring down, I get it. Pontiac was never GM to begin with, why not allow the company to be sold, you sold Sabb, Saturn, and Hummer. Do something right for the American people…
@RJ: Pontiac has been with GM for DECADES. Personally, I’d like to see Pontiac back, but as a GM brand once again.
GM was brought into GM. Now GM in an effot to sell Chevy, because there are to many non-Americans in positions of power residing in the United States making decisions about what Americans want, when the have no idea about Americans, let alone what we want, are running this company.
2013 needs to produce a 2014 Trans Am (non-retro)ready to tackle the european/Japanese market.
@RJ: I like the idea of the Trans Am returning in ’14, but of course before THAT can happen, PONTIAC has to return.
@k: I’m not suggesting that GM revive Olds. Olds didn’t have the sales or the following that Pontiac did. Also, I’m not suggesting that Chevy should have been murdered; Chevy was #1 at GM. I AM suggesting that BUICK should have been murdered, because:
1. Pontiac was #3 at GM, while Buick was #5.
2. Pontiac outsold Buick two-to-one.
3. Pontiac was more iconic than Buick.
4. Pontiac had FIVE models, while Buick had only THREE.
5. Pontiac had more potential than Buick.
6. Pontiac had a larger fanbase than did Buick.
When you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, you will see the evidence of consumer interest in Pontiac. THIS VERY THREAD is an example. There is DEMAND for Pontiac. We Pontiac loyalists–as consumers (customers)–are asking GM to MAKE ROOM in the “new GM” for Pontiac.
I would take a Trans Am anyway I could get it. remember Pontiac was brought into GM. GM didn’t make Pontiac, it was already made. As lonog as the suitor stayed close to the brand you would never know the diff. Trans Am don’t need GM to be a Pontiac vehicle. It just needs life.
GM is holding our love hostage, no real trans Am owner would drive a Camaro. It just won’t happen.
@RJ: I certainly agree with all you said. I’m on my second Trans Am now, and both have been great cars. I mean, my ’84 Trans Am is 28 yrs old now, but it’s still running. However, I would still prefer that Pontiac (and the Trans Am) be revived by GM. To me, Pontiac is GM, and GM is Pontiac. Sure, another American company COULD buy Pontiac and re-introduce the Trans Am, but to me it just wouldn’t seem like old times.
And, not only would the Camaro not do; CHEVY won’t do, period. PONTIAC must return.
And before the Camaro came out we were told if it sold well, the Trans Am would return. Well it has sold well, but instead of offering the Trans Am, we get the Camaro, the SS, the Zl1, the Z28, and many more versions of the same car. Virtually the same marketing move that got them in the mess that lead to the BAILOUT.
You would think someone would read mom’s proverb, you must learn from the past, you are doom to repeat it. 10 different Corvette, ten different Camaros, it will not be long before you are back in Washington asking for more of the American peoples money.
Businessmen and women JUST DON’T GET IT…At somepoint you will have to fire career businessmen and hire some street people to run some of these outfits…
@Moanalua
GM did not “kill” Buick because Buick is a big seller in China, more so than the US. I guess in China, Buick is as a luxury model in the same vain as Cadillac, Lexus, etc, only cheaper.
GM probably gave Pontiac a reprieve when it was deciding between it and Olds those few years ago. Unfortunately it did not work out for Pontiac. I can imagine that you’re upset, but again there is no room for Pontiac anymore, unfortunately. GM is really focusing on the brands that are bringing in the bucks. Besides, Pontiac did not even have models that were their own, They either had mechanical and/or body designs shared with others. I believe the GTO and G8 had engines shared with the Corvette, G3 shared with Aveo, Vibe, shared with Toyota Matrix, G6 shared with Malibu, etc
In essence they had become just sportier Chevrolets, Toyotas,etc with no brand identity of their own. In this instance, GM made the right choice.
@k: GM certainly DID KILL Pontiac; it was ITS brand. It’s been mentioned several times on this thread that Buick was kept because of China. Well, to we Pontiac loyalists, that amounts to a form of PROSTITUTION when you consider that Pontiac was outselling Buick two-to-one right here in the US.
As a Pontiac loyalist, I AM upset about Pontiac’s murder, and I’m not about to agree that “there is no room for Pontiac anymore.” Not when the brand has such a large and loyal following spread throughout the US and Canada. That represents DEMAND.
Further, it doesn’t matter to me whether Pontiac “did not even have models that were their own.” If it’s got the Pontiac name/emblem on it, it IS a Pontiac. Right? A brand as strong as Pontiac (#3 at GM), with such a large following, needs to return. No, GM made the WRONG choice murdering Pontiac, and THIS thread and the many others you get when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, are testimony to that.
Moanalua — is it possible to discuss the return of your favorite brand without bashing another (Buick)?
The two are not comparable, and one did not survive at the expense of the other.
Buick today is a star within GM’s portfolio of brands and products from a sales volume and profitability standpoint. This is true whether you look at North America or China. Image and brand cachet have both risen dramatically over the last 16 months, and things are only to get better from here.
As a matter of fact, I would think that you would be rooting for Buick since it results in a more profitable GM. And a more profitable GM can, by design, lead to the return of Pontiac.
@Alex Luft: That would be a difficult proposition, seeing that some people on this thread have no problem bashing Pontiac. And If you think I’M bashing Buick, you ought to seem some of the Buick-bashing that I’ve seen on other Pontiac-related threads.
Pontiac and Buick may not have been exactly comparable, but they were both car brands (as opposed to truck brands), and they were both mainstream brands at that. You might attempt to challenge the last point, but as far as I’m concerned, every car brand at GM was a mainstream brand except for Cadillac.
I’ve also heard it said that Buick didn’t survive at Pontiac’s expense; I’m not buying. My understanding is that after the dust had settled, either Pontiac or Buick had to go. If Pontiac was sacrificed rather than Buick, I don’t see how you can say that Buick DIDN’T survive at Pontiac’s expense.
Actually, I WOULDN’T mind rooting for Buick IF GM WOULD GUARANTEE THAT WHEN IT (GM) BECAME “PROFITABLE ENOUGH,” GM WOULD REVIVE PONTIAC. As far as I know, GM made no such guarantee. Therefore, any Buick success only rubs salt into the wound.
You claim that Buick is doing well; I’ve read posts by several other people that said Buick’s long-term survival isn’t assured at all. I believe one such person is on this very thread.
@Moanalua Buick wasn’t as mainstream as you think. And even if it was (which is wasn’t), it served an entirely different customer than those served by Pontiac.
Either way, Buick is certainly not “mainstream” today. Also, any person who “believes” Buick is in trouble today is either in denial or misinformed, as nothing could be farther from the truth.
Let’s leave it at that.
@Alex Luft: Sorry, but I don’t intend to “leave it at that.” Pontiac was murdered, Buick survived, and I resent it. I don’t resent that Chevy survived; Chevy was #1 at GM. Buick was #5, while Pontiac was #3.
This is the second time you said that Buick “isn’t mainstream.” Tell us when it left mainstream status. Tell us that Buick “wasn’t mainstream” in ’73, for example. That year, Buick built a comparable model to EVERY Pontiac except the Firebird. Heck, Buick even had a musclecar answer to the GTO (the Gran Sport) and the ECONOMY Ventura (the Apollo). So, which year was it that Buick left mainstream status?
Sorry, but I’ll be darned if I’ll stand still while excuses and justifications are made for Buick, while Pontiac lies six feet under.
@Moanalua Buick left mainstream back in the late 90s, as far as I know. But the decision to truly take the brand up-market was realized with the first-gen LaCrosse (if not the Rendezvous). You seem to miss the fact that in any business, decisions are made about the current market scenario and strategy as much as they are about the future. From a profitability perspective, Buick has significantly more potential than Pontiac. This is especially true today — when the brand is really coming into its own by attracting new buyers who are paying higher prices for new-age luxury vehicles. This will continue to be the case as 1) new nameplates are introduced and 2) current nameplates are replaced with even better models.
“Chevy was #1 at GM. Buick was #5, while Pontiac was #3.”
You’re not helping your case by repeating this time and time again. Popularity/sales volume mean absolutely nothing unless they translate into profits. Buick has significantly greater profit potential than Pontiac does, even if it’s resurrected.
As a scholar who has brought up business-related concepts before, I don’t understand why this is such a difficult concept for you to grasp.
@Alex Luft: I still don’t agree that Buick should be combined with Cadillac as a “non-mainstream” brand. Certainly Cadillac ISN’T mainstream; it’s GM’s SOLE luxury brand, as it always HAS been. Buick still lies below Cadillac; do any automakers have TWO luxury brands?
With all due respect, you exhibit a distinct lack of empathy for Pontiac loyalists. We Pontiac loyalists are very unhappy about our brand being murdered, and you sit there typing-away about how it’s all proper and right. Perhaps YOU should try grasping how that makes US feel.
By the way, I would have no problem with Buick having “greater profit potential” than a revived Pontiac, as long as Pontiac IS revived.
@Moanalua It seems that you’re attempting to turn the fact that GM has two luxury brands, to every else’s one, into a weakness, whereas it is actually a considerable strength and opportunity. The fact of the matter is that Buick serves customers NOT served by Cadillac or by Chevrolet.
Please take the time to research the luxury automotive market. After doing so, you will realize that the market is not a “one size fits all” element that can be served MOST EFFECTIVELY by a single brand. The fact that GM is the only automaker with two luxury brands is a competitive advantage.
I can’t begin to imagine how difficult it must be for those such as yourself to lose your favorite brand. But please don’t take my factual arguments as “a distinct lack of empathy” for Pontiac. Rather, my concern lies in you, in particular, consistently bashing Buick and (irrelevantly) pointing out its lower-than-Pontiac sales volume — when both are either irrelevant or entirely unnecessarily.
@Alex Luft: Let me spell it out for you…
1. I’m looking at the matter through the prism of Pontiac loyalism. Therefore, I am loyal to PONTIAC, NOT GM. I don’t care a whit about what might be a “strength” or “opportunity” for GM; NOT while Pontiac remains dead.
2. As a Pontiac loyalist, I’m really not concerned about which customers Buick serves.
3. What you are neglecting to note is that VOLUME = DEMAND, and GM ought to attempt to MEET the demand for Pontiac by reviving the brand. Let’s ignore (for the moment) the fact that Pontiac was #3 at GM. Consider all the websites and threads you get when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”. THAT is MARKET DEMAND. Market demand is NOT “irrelevant.”
That’s fine Moanalua. Care about Pontiac all you want. No one is suggesting you do otherwise. Just don’t unnecessarily and undeservedly Buick, a thriving and successful brand. through the mud.
Also, just because demand exists doesn’t mean it should be served. It should be served by a business only if its possible to do so profitably.
@RJ
I don’t think Pontiac would fit with any of the brands out today, look at what has happened with Maybach from Mercedes.
@RJ: Why must Pontiac “fit” with any other brand? Pontiac was its OWN brand, and as you can see when you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, there’s quite a bit of demand for it.
Maybach cost is why it is out of business. Trans Am cost a tenth of what a Maybach cost. A sports car with the appeal of a Porsche costing just over 60 grand would get Europeans, Japanese and American excited…
350 horses in normal ride, 650 in sport mode, all-wheel drive…
@RJ: You’ve made a very good point. For decades, Pontiac has had the role of being the American answer to European sport brands. As far back as ’73(!), Pontiac had targeted BMW. Pontiac had some success because Pontiacs are MUCH cheaper than their BMW equivalents. Should GM revive Pontiac with a similar focus, it would be much cheaper than Porsche’s equivalents as well.
@Moanalua
I can see you’re passionate about Pontiac and that they should be revived, but again, sorry ain’t happening. Do you know why?
As part of the US Government’s bailout of GM, GM had to make concessions to receive the help. Part of this, was no more business as usual. Pontiac was the casualty of this. The Pontiac(s) you own, enjoy them, because barring a big big miracle Pontiac is gone for good.
Enthusiasts and loyalists who can’t (or won’t) get their products from the remaining GM brands will have to look elsewhere. An even bigger strike against bringing Pontiac back is the sales success of some of GM’s other models (Cruze, Sonic, Volt to a lesser extent, etc). These are sales GM has not seen in a long time, which can more than cushion the blow of the discontinuation of Pontiac.
@k:
1. I’m just one of MANY Pontiac loyalists who are passionate about the brand.
2. I’ll hold out for a “big, big miracle.”
3. If GM will NOT revive Pontiac, I will ABSOLUTELY go outside of GM for a new vehicle.
4. The customer is ALWAYS right. If I HAVE to purchase a new non-GM vehicle, it won’t kill me. I would like to think that GM is the slightly-bigger loser, having lost a customer and that customer’s goodwill. And I can guarantee you, I won’t be the only customer GM loses.
RJ (the guy who thinks he can run GM without so much as the ability to spell correctly) and Moanalua: nobody cares!
This is the most active website/thread on the web discussing Pontiac or its return. And even that doesn’t mean a thing about true market demand. If VW killed Porsche tomorrow, everyone would be talking about how the brand should be brought back. But only a tiny percentage of those will actually be able to buy a Porsche.
Also RJ, your America-focused statements may have good intentions… But they’re completely baseless, irrational, and unrelated to running a global organization.
Your bad. You can bash my spelling, because I don’t have someone to write for me. And because this is not a professional board, so there my be times I do not proof read my post. But I have served many years in our armed forces; what that means is, I have been to many many lands far far away. I have spoken to many leaders from foreign nations.
You really don’t know me or my background. Yes, at times I am slow in my delivery, that is with reason. I want to be accurate in my response. Many times people talk fast, my experience is they want to sound like they know what they are saying, but in reality they are nothing more than, USE CAR SELLSMEN.
So just to point out Bob Lutz, the author of die Trans Am die, is not American yet he was a VP, the second highest ranking decision maker in the company until he retired.
And the female, Shannon Daughtry, I might have her name wrong, but she was HEAD OF PONTIAC WHEN IT WAS KILLED. She is Canadian. I know more about Gm and its leadership then you think, why, because I do my HOMEWORK, it is part of my current job as a Quality Assurance Specialist.
@RJ: Her name is Susan Docherty. If she IS Canadian, THAT might not have been such a bad thing, because Pontiac was even more popular in Canada than it was here in the US. Having said that, I’m not saying that that necessarily means she did a good job. I believe she was head of Buick and GMC as well.
@Silent Electrician: Speak for yourself. You say, “nobody cares,” yet in the very same post you’ve named two folks who DO. Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, and see how many folks “don’t care.” And it doesn’t matter whether each and every thread is active or not; those folks would very likely be interested in a revived Pontiac. That’s why they posted in the FIRST place.
RJ the sale of 10 Maybachs would bring in more than what Pontiac makes in a year. The real reason Maybach is done for is because there is no room for a 3rd über lux brand next to Rolls and Bentley. Just like there is no room for Pontiac in the modern automotive environment. Both are gone. See the similarity?
Also, 350 horses in normal mode… 660 in “sport” mode? What are we smoking here? Magical fairy dust?
@Silent Electrician: If I may jump-in here…
Obviously, Maybach and Pontiac are apples and oranges. Pontiac wasn’t an ultra-expensive brand. There is much more demand for Pontiac than there is for Maybach, I’m sure. Pontiac has a very large and loyal fanbase, and a LOT more folks could afford a Pontiac than a Maybach. With the fanbase that Pontiac has, and the far lower price-points it had, I believe there IS room for Pontiac today. That’s what all the Pontiac websites/threads are about.
Now to the realy reason I am here. Today in my town it was reported a car dealer lowered his flag to half-staff the day after the election. in the article the story reads he lowered it for the people who have died around the world to include the men who died in Libya. Well that was two months ago. The article went on to read the recent events in the election.
It is clear he lowered his flags to half-staff to oppose the election. This dealer carries GM products, I am sure Obama bailed out GM. I understand his politics might oppose the President but 1) keep your politics out of your business, 2) the flag flying at Half-Staff is NOT RESERVED FOR HIS TO SHOW HOW HE IS NOT PLEASED WITH OUR ELECTION SYSTEM. Patterson show be briefed on who bailed him and his dealership out, and the usage of the flag…UNACCEPTABLE…
I would like to see Pontiac revived but not under GM. The Name brand and style are viable if the are a separate co. not just a re-branded chevy
@Farouk: I respect your position, and I’m glad that at least you want Pontiac back. However, after owning NINE Pontiacs, I’v seen that EACH of them had that “GM feeling.” Each of them had GM’s DNA. Pontiac was a GM brand. Actually, I’d rather have Pontiacs that are Chevy re-badges, than Pontiacs that aren’t even GM.
I’m kind of tired of hearing Buick killed Pontiac or Buick should have been killed off and not Pontiac. Pontiac is dead…..deal with it. I will admit, Pontiac was starting to get on track especially with their two cars the Solstice and G8. Unfortunately, they were a victim of inconvenient timing. The government stepped in to rid GM of its bad management and as sad as it is, some companies needed to go. People wonder why Hyundai is doing so well now. It’s because they don’t have 5 different car companies under them. They concentrate their efforts on 2 companies and in those 2 companies, they put out different products. Case in point, Hyundai doesn’t have a separate luxury company. They just put out the Equus as, well a Hyundai. They don’t sugar coat it. They have Hyundai and Kia. Ford is doing the same thing. Ford and Lincoln. GM is on the road the road to recovery dealing with four brands and I would go so far as to say they need to drop GMC.
Before I get too far off track, let me say Pontiac could have been successful. As I stated before, with their Solstice and G8, they had a good start. If you look at the bigger picture though, the G8 was competing on BMW’s turf and that’s what Cadillac is also doing. Enter redundancy! Now, look at Buick’s purpose. It took a few conversations with Ex for me to see this picture. A while back, Lexus took Buick’s formula of a disconnected feeling from the car that just puts you in your own world and ran with it. It was a successful move for them. Fast forward and now Lexus is trying to pull a BMW mob and offer sport luxury cars. A lot of Lexus owners don’t like this, and this is where Buick comes in. Now they can scoop up the owners who wants a near luxury vehicle that disconnects the owner from the car. Buick is back and not at Pontiac’s expense. I’m a little upset that I will probably never see a Grand National style car from Buick. I have a 2012 GS and while its a nice car, it in all honesty doesn’t deserve the GS moniker. This is just something I have to deal with an accept with “New GM”, and that’s the same hint people who love Pontiacs need to accept with their demise.
I apologize for all the typos in my above post. My iPhone autocorrects everything!!!!
* It took a few conversations with Alex for me to to see this picture.
* that’s the same thing people who love Pontiac need to accept with their demise.
@Tim rosser: I’ve had many conversations with him, but I still don’t agree with him.
@Tim rosser: And I’m kind of tired of Pontiac being dead. Based on your post, may I assume that you’re a Buick loyalist? It’s very easy to be magnanimous when YOUR brand is STILL ALIVE. YOU’RE disappointed that GM gave your particular model of Buick an unsuitable moniker? I’M disappointed that GM MURDERED Pontiac!
I’m a Pontiac loyalist, and I do NOT accept that Pontiac was “rightly” murdered. Something tells me–by the number of websites and threads I get when I Google “Bring Back Pontiac”–that a LOT of other Pontiac loyalists don’t, either.
If one wants something bad enough and others join in , nothing can stop them. not a bunch of naysayers who seem to enjoy watching others struggle with opposition. Ford had tried discontinuing the Mustang back in the early 80’s. Untill they got so much feedback from the public that they went on and look at it now. Im sure there were the same negative reasons why one should throw their dreams out the window. Let them type all the gloom & doom they want. Why not use that energy to wash their Buicks. Those of us who are Pontiac fans will never give up. The more we can get to support us, the better. Those that don’t go home. I travel the SE Coast of Florida daily for years and I see G6’s in numbers that spell sales success. And the guy who extolled the virtues of Hyundais formula for success doesnt understand the car industry,as the reasons for their success lies in the cost of doing business,
Who thinks it’s time to bring back Mercury?
Yeah, and lets add Geo, Eagle, and Plymouth to that list too!!!!!
@Tim rosser: More ignorant sarcasm, only from a different source. Geo and Eagle were johnnys-come-lately, that never establised a large fanbase seasoned by the passage of decades. At least Mercury had been around decades longer than Geo and Eagle. Plymouth used the same engines as Dodge since almost the beginning; therefore, Plymouth loyalists could find it easier to switch-over to Dodge. Also, when Plymouth was murdered, it too had low sales, in much the same way that Mercury did when it was murdered. NONE of the scenarios above apply to Pontiac’s case.
@Main Wayne: Your sarcasm reveals your ignorance. When Mercury was murdered, it had neither the sales or the fanbase to compare to Pontiac.
@sarge: Thanks for your post. I appreciate the tenacity and feistiness of it; you remind me of another feisty Pontiac loyalist who goes by the User Name “PontiacRulz”, who was a mainstay on another thread on this website.
I’ve called those people naysayers, too. My hope is that more and more folks like you will join this thread, and help create a snowball that gets bigger and bigger, and crashes into GM headquarters.
On msnbc, there’s a tagline, “Elections have consequences.” Likewise, rankings should mean something, too. Pontiac was #3 at GM, yet some naysayers on this thread pooh-pooh that. That’s like winning a bronze medal at the Olympics, only to have someone say things like, “It doesn’t matter,” or, “it’s irrelevant.”
Please stay with me on this thread; I could use your help in dealing with the naysayers on it.
Im glad RJ and the silent electrician arent running GM. sorry but your marketing ideas are failure 101.
@sarge: That got me to thinking that MARKETING could play a major role in making a revived Pontiac viable. If you Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, you’ll see that Pontiac has a large fanbase. Large fanbase + effective marketing = a revived Pontiac that can be viable.
I hated the fact that Oldsmobile was killed off. I grew up around olds. I was ticked off when my dad sold his two Regency 98s before I started driving. I also hated the fact that GM got rid of such an old and distinguished brand. You know what though, I never through fit over it. I guarantee that if Pontiac did for some reason come back, 85% of those who wanted back wouldn’t buy one. People talk a lot of game, but when it comes down to it, they back down. I see Sarge tactfully called me out saying I don’t know how the car market works. I’m not an expert. Never claimed to be, but lets be honest here, you Pontiac zealots seem to not know the car game. If you did, you would understand why this decision benefited GM and let Pontiac rest in peace.
@Tim rosser: May I suggest that if you “never threw a fit” over Olds’ murder, then you simply weren’t as loyal to Olds as we are to Pontiac. And what makes you think that 85% of Pontiac loyalists wouldn’t purchase a new vehicle from a revived Pontiac? Precisely how did you arrive at that figure? I think it would be substantially smaller than that.
You complain about sarge calling you out, yet you’re doing the same thing by calling us “zealots.” If I may respond in kind: Name-calling is the refuge of a scoundrel.
Finally, I think I speak for most Pontiac loyalists when I say that we’re concerned about decisions that benefit Pontiac’s return, as opposed to those that benefit GM. As long as Pontiac remains dead, why should we be concerned about GM?
@Alex Luft: Sorry this response to your last post is coming so late; your comment didn’t register in my Inbox, so I didn’t notice it until I happened to scroll through the last page of this thread just now.
I do appreciate your sympathy at the loss of Pontiac. However, there IS a lingering sense of resentment towards Buick, and it’s not only on MY part. As I had mentioned before, the “Buick bashing” is much worse on other threads I’ve been on.
You are the second person to say that Buick “in no way” survived at Pontiac’s expense, and I’ve done some thinking about that. Let’s assume that your position is true. I think what’s happened is that Pontiac loyalists have looked at the GM brands that survived: Chevy, GMC, Cadillac, Buick. Almost no one has suggested that Chevy shouldn’t have survived, because Chevy was #1 at GM. Almost no one has suggested that Cadillac shouldn’t have survived, and I think that’s because almost everyone agrees that every automaker should have a luxury brand. I HAVE seen many posts by Pontiac loyalists stating that GMC shouldn’t have survived, because GMC trucks are–for the most part–clones of Chevy trucks. Personally, I bear no grudge against GMC because GMC outsold Pontiac, fair and square. GMC was #2 at GM. That leaves Buick. To understand our position, I think you need to look at the matter through the lens of Pontiac loyalism. Pontiac loyalists resent that the #5 brand at GM–Buick–survived, while the #3 brand–Pontiac–didn’t. You need to consider also that Pontiac has a much larger fanbase than Buick. I think THAT’S why there’s considerable antipathy towards Buick on the part of many Pontiac loyalists. Now, you argue that volume doesn’t necessarily equate to profitability; unfortunately, that doesn’t MATTER to the Pontiac loyalist. What DOES matter is that a popular brand with a large fanbase was discontinued, while a slower-selling brand with a much-smaller fanbase survived. “The customer is always right.” You can talk all you want about profitability, but it won’t make any difference to Pontiac loyalists. I used to work at a fast-food restaurant as a summer job during my college days, and I’ll never forget what the manager told us: The customer doesn’t care about how difficult our jobs may be; all the customer cares about is getting the food he/she wants. Likewise, Pontiac loyalists don’t care about excuses GM may make about why Buick survived, and Pontiac didn’t; all Pontiac loyalists–as customers–care about (and resent) is that Pontiac has been murdered.
Granted, GM is not REQUIRED to meet the demand for Pontiac, but neither is GM a monopoly. That, in turn, means that Pontiac loyalists can always take their business elsewhere when it’s time to purchase a new vehicle. I would think that GM really should consider reviving Pontiac. “The customer is always right.”
Trans Am…
…should be revived, along with the Pontiac brand.
@Moanalua
I admire your passion about Pontiac. It was sad the way it worked out, but if you recall, before GM received aid, they had to make some big changes. One of the changes they had to make was to downsize, so they would not be put into this financial crisis again (time will tell with this).
They had to decide between Buick, GMC and Pontiac (Cadillac and Chevy were definitely safe). Pontiac was the unfortunate choice. It is truly gone and will probably never come back, lest GM renege on their “deal” with the US Government. Former Pontiac dealers must have realized this, hence their remodeling of their showrooms to remove the Pontiac name. If you also recall, many dealerships were closed as a part of the bankruptcy agreement as well. They are not coming back either. Pontiac is gone, for good.
@k: I do not agree that Pontiac “will probably never come back.” GM was forced to downsize, but Pontiac was shut down, more because GM feared it couldn’t otherwise meet the deadline that Obama’s automotive task force had set. It wasn’t so much that Pontiac was irretrievably flawed. In other words, if GM had had more time, it MIGHT have found a way to keep Pontiac in some form.
Regarding the dealers, of course they removed Pontiac’s signs/banners; the brand was shut down. As for Pontiac dealerships closing, not as many closed as you seem to suggest. There were relatively few stand-alone Pontiac dealers; most Pontiac dealers sold other brands as well. Only the stand-alone dealers closed.
Pontiac obviously IS “truly gone,” for now. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it will never come back. And, the US govt’s deal with GM is enforceable only as long as the govt still has partial ownership of GM. Once the govt is out of GM’s hair, GM will be free to revive Pontiac.
Moanalua — the government doesn’t affect GM’s operations:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/04/no-the-government-does-not-call-the-shots-at-gm-de-fud/
@Alex Luft: Thanks for the clarification. I presume, then, that GM is ALREADY free to revive Pontiac.
@Moanalua
I sincerely believe Ponitac is gone for good. GM is making money WITHOUT Pontiac. If anything, any sporty models that they may produce would probably be Chevrolet’s to go alongside the Camaro and Corvette. As much as you are hoping that Pontiac will return, it probably won’t happen.
@K: I sincerely believe Pontiac ISN’T gone for good. Right now, GM is being dragged-down by its operations in Europe. I would like to think that once GM’s problems in the European market are cleaned-up, it can revive Pontiac, and then over the long term make money AND increase its market share. As far as many Pontiac loyalists are concerned, it doesn’t matter HOW sporty Chevy would like to be, it will NEVER replace Pontiac. Pontiac’s return “probably won’t happen”? Only time will tell.
Interesting comments on this topic, but for all intents and purposes Pontiac is gone, for good. The way GM “closed it down” was an indication that it is not coming back (they treated Olds better when it was discontinued). It was nice while it was here, but Pontiac is indeed gone.
@C: I challenge your position that Pontiac “is gone, for good.” Also, how is it that the way Pontiac was closed-down, was an indication that it’s “gone for good”? How was Olds’ treatment better?
@Moanalua
In all likelihood it is gone for good. GM is now focusing on Chevrolet. Since the Sonic and Cruze are doing well, saleswise, GM’s investment has paid off. Pontiac was little more than a brand with vehicles shared or borrowed from other brands/makes
When GM went through and came out of bankruptcy they were “cleansed” of what may have ailed them this unfortunately included Pontiac. Any development money from here on out would be going to the brands GM has left. GM has new (and existing) customers now. Thiose are the people they are going to try to hold onto.
Olds was at least mentioned a little more than Pontiac, that’s about it. If you recall the last model that Pontiac had was the Pontiac Vibe, a Toyota Matrix clone, that is how bad it had become for them, hence why they are gone,, for good. along with Olds.
@C: Get real. Almost all of GM’s brands were “vehicles shared or borrowed from other brands/makes.” For me; that’s fine. A Pontiac is a Pontiac, whether it’s a Vibe or a G6. Sure, the Vibe was a Matrix clone, but it was STILL considered a Pontiac. It wasn’t the TOYOTA Vibe; it was the PONTIAC Vibe.
GM doesn’t have to settle for holding on to the customers it now has. It can REGAIN the former Pontiac customers it lost to other automakers.
You talk as if Pontiac was some kind of cripple in its last year. It was the #3 brand at GM, and has a large fanbase. Why do you think THIS thread has been going for some eight months and seven pages? Google “Bring Back Pontiac”, and see how many MORE websites/threads there are.
“Why do you think THIS thread has been going for some eight months and seven pages?”
Because you’re the only one keeping it alive, with a few interspersed (and largely unnecessarily American-focused) quips by RJ.
The only way you’re keeping the thread alive dear Moanalua is by being in denial. You have entirely no rhyme or reason for blatantly striking down every credible and valid reason that’s been brought up here for NOT reviving the thankfully deceased Pontiac that has been a drain on GM since the mid-90s.
You know, this whole discussion reminds me of the little kid in school that everyone else tells to wipe the snot off his face, yet the snot-nosed kid is in constant denial and keeps telling everyone else that he has no snot on his face… until he looks in the mirror.
I mean no offense or disrespect to your personally; I’m just talkin.
@Silent Electrician: I appreciate your not meaning to offend or disrespect me personally; that’s a nice gesture.
Have you considered that it’s people like YOU who are “blatantly striking down every credible and valid reason that’s been brought-up here” for REVIVING Pontiac? Your argument cuts both ways. Therefore, likewise YOU could be cast as that “snot-nosed little kid in school” in denial. Perhaps YOU should look in the mirror?
Finally, have you forgotten that this thread was intended to comment on the poll? If you look at the poll, you will see that YOU and your fellow naysayers are IN THE MINORITY.
Likewise, please don’t take MY comments personally or as an insult. I’m simply standing-up for Pontiac.
TIME TO BUY FOREIGN…
Get ready for a sea of squeaks and rattles!
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/11/this-is-why-the-chevy-cruze-is-so-silent-and-free-of-squeaks-rattles/
@RJ: To you and to all Pontiac loyalists who need to purchase a new vehicle but wish to punish GM for murdering Pontiac…
May I suggest Dodge or Ford? By all means, shift away from GM, but please consider shifting to an AMERICAN competitor. Let’s not allow a foreign automaker to benefit. Having said that, I hope we can still consider Dodge an American brand, seeing that Italian automaker Fiat is in charge of Chrysler Group.
The same thing people told President Clinton when he raised taxes, his efforts, the ones people said would ruin the United States, lead to the biggest surplus we have ever had.
There will always be doubting thomases, naysayers, and the old holdouts, but the once the new progressive vision is put in place and the results are given time to bear fruit, even the hardest critic can’t refute the results…You keep saying no Sarge, I have dealt with your kind before.
Absolutely! Buick is a joke in this country and all their cars look like ugly chrome jellybeans. GMC is a hopeless failure because its product lineup is no different than what you get from a Chevy. A piece of GM’s soul went with Pontiac and it’s reflected in the lack of passion from their recent products. All of them seem to come off as cynical badge-engineering efforts design to sell in volume rather than being able to compete on an equal footing in their segments. Pontiac would be a great choice to be revived as a low-volume performance brand.
@chris smalls: Thank-you for your post. I totally agree with your description of late-model Buicks. I don’t see very many of them (and doesn’t THAT say something?), but when I DO see them, that’s EXACTLY what they look like, especially the silver ones. And, it seems that almost ALL the ones I see are silver; don’t know why. GM can RECLAIM its soul if it would REVIVE Pontiac. May Pontiac loyalists like you and I, keep ON them until they do!
@ Chris Smalls: Buick is NOT a joke. Go drive one instead of pretending you know so much about them. Styling is subjective as we all know, so if you think they look like jellybeans, good for you. It’s funny how so many people will walk up to me and compliment my GS. And if you read the latest issue of Road & Track, you’ll see how they praise the GS. Buicks are actually right on par for competing with Lexus and Acura. And badge engineering isn’t just a GM thing. All car manufacturers do it. As a matter of a fact, GM should be commended for differentiating their products. They might be based on the same platforms, but styling wise, they are different looking. Look at the new Lexus’. It looks exactly like a Toyota Avalon. So gone are the days of GM putting out 4 of the same model of cars with a different badge on them. Oh, and Pontiac is gone. Deal with it.
@Tim rosser: “Oh, and Pontiac is gone. Deal with it.” Those are FIGHTING WORDS, rosser. Google EITHER “Pontiac” OR “Bring Back Pontiac”, and you’ll see HOW MANY folks think BUICK should have been gone. I’ve come across several people (and just TWO on THIS thread) who think Buick is sitting pretty. I’ve come across MORE who think Buick is ultimately doomed. So, enjoy your Buicks while Buick is here. The ONLY reason Buick’s butt was saved was CHINA. If I were a Buick loyalist, I wouldn’t consider that a point of pride at ALL.
“I’ve come across several people (and just TWO on THIS thread) who think Buick is sitting pretty. I’ve come across MORE who think Buick is ultimately doomed.”
Buick is far from “doomed”. The people who thing it is “doomed” are either uninformed, misled, or a combination of both. You seem to fall into this camp, and so do “the people” you refer to.
“The ONLY reason Buick’s butt was saved was CHINA.”
Have any proof to back up this statement?
Allow me to answer that for you: you don’t. Because it’s false. Buick wasn’t saved… and it wasn’t saved solely because of its popularity in China.
Instead, Buick wasn’t discontinued (Pontiac was) because of the huge opportunity that exists in having a second luxury brand.
As I’ve stated before: your assumptions about Buick and utter lack of understanding of the new-age luxury car market is disheartening. I urge you to do some research of your own before attacking a successful and growing luxury offering.
@Alex Luft: Congratulations. You are part of a very select group who declare that Buick WASN’T saved only because of China. I’ve been Googling Pontiac-related websites for over three years on an almost daily basis, and I must have read literally HUNDREDS of posts. I would estimate that NO MORE than FIVE PERCENT of those posts-and I’m being generous-declared that Buick wasn’t saved only because of China. Have I any proof? Yes: Those HUNDREDS of posts. If indeed Buick WASN’T saved only because of China, I’d prefer to hear it from a GM exec. So Buick is a “successful and growing luxury offering”? I wonder how many GM execs knew THAT in APRIL ’09.
So: My assumptions and “lack of understanding of the new-age luxury car market is disheartening”? I’LL tell you what’s disheartening: The murder and continued absence of the third most-popular brand at GM. And, not that it necessarily means anything to you, but the more you trumpet Buick, the less likely it is that I will EVER purchase one.
“Have I any proof? Yes: Those HUNDREDS of posts. If indeed Buick WASN’T saved only because of China, I’d prefer to hear it from a GM exec.”
And here I was, thinking we were going to have a discussions based on facts — rather than baseless opinions and posts.
“So Buick is a “successful and growing luxury offering”? I wonder how many GM execs knew THAT in APRIL ’09.”
What they knew or didn’t know is irrelevant. What they understood, which is something you continue to fail to comprehend, is the brand’s potential; specifically — the selling of more luxury vehicles.
Whether you buy a GM vehicle, or a Buick, for that matter — is not relevant either, as you’ve already stated that you will never do either if your beloved brand doesn’t make a comeback. But what is apropos is that Buick is conquesting customers left and right… not that it should even matter to you:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/12/gm-u-s-sales-grow-3-percent-in-november-2012/
@Alex Luft: I find it interesting that those literally HUNDREDS of posts, by HUNDREDS of people, are ALL but “baseless opinion.”
“What the GM execs knew or didn’t know is irrelevant.” While I have only a year of law school under my belt, what someone knew AT THE TIME OF A CRIME IS relevant, because that helps establish INTENT. It would appear to me that in April ’09, GM ruthlessly murdered Pontiac, but kept Buick because of the Chinese market. Are you telling us that GM KNEW that Buick would “blossom” into a “successful luxury brand” three years later?
I’m afraid I won’t be able to congratulate Buick on its “success.” Buick may “conquest customers left and right” but it’s not going to “conquest” me.
To Pontiac loyalists reading this exchange: If this exchange (and the odes to Buick, while Pontiac remains six feet under) riles you, please join me in taking your business to a NON-GM automaker.