Should Chevrolet Replace Holden In Australia, New Zealand?167
This article is part of the GM Authority Opinion Desk series, where you can see exactly what’s on the minds of the GM Authority crew.
Before you answer that, make sure you’ve considered the power and subsequent advantages that a global brand brings to the table. As I’ve discussed previously, one of the best examples of the superior nature of a global name can be seen in GM’s cross-town rival: Ford.
Making a brand available all over the world provides the ability to truly capitalize on the super power known as worldwide marketing by being able to create (social network) buzz about a brand and/or a specific vehicle. In fact, that’s exactly what The Blue Oval is doing with the all-new Focus: as people begin talking about Ford’s new global lineup of compact vehicles, everyone — no matter their location — can participate. A Focus buyer in Australia can discuss his or her experience with the car with someone considering the Focus in the United States… or Korea… or Zimbabwe.
There are, of course, other benefits to a global brand, such as the ability to create integrated advertising campaigns as well as a unified image for the brand — luxuries that General Motors currently can’t enjoy due to the brand and name dichotomy present in Chevrolet and Holden. For example, the next-gen Aveo — which will wear the Sonic nameplate in North America — will be known as the Barina in Oceania, although this may change sooner rather than later.
Now, for those who think I’m absolutely crazy to even suggest the replacement of Holden — a brand that’s been around since 1856 and has been owned by GM since 1931 — let me be extra clear: I’m not recommending that the Holden brand be expunged tomorrow and be immediately replaced by Chevrolet. Doing so may prove disastrous for both marques.
There are, however, tried and true methods of slowly migrating one brand into another that would leave only those living under a rock confused and dumbfounded about the changeup. Take, for example, the way computer networking giant Cisco handled the rebranding of Linksys after buying the home and small business router manufacturer in 2003. Cisco first introduced its brand to the public by renaming Linksys routers to Linksys by Cisco… and now — seven years after the decision was made to move away from the Linksys brand — the Linksys name is totally gone, having been replaced by Cisco altogether. Everyone knows what Cisco is… and most people know that the company had something to do with Linksys at some point or another.
So, while Holden may be working in Oceania for now, General Motors will find that keeping Holden around will put Chevrolet at an increased disadvantage compared to global brands such as Ford and Toyota as time goes on. As such, I would love to see Chevrolet (along with Buick and GMC) become completely global brands to the tunes of Ford, Toyota, BMW, and Lexus, among others. What about you?
This article is part of the GM Authority Opinion Desk series, where you can see exactly what’s on the minds of the GM Authority crew.
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What you fail to relise even over time Australians would not accept chevy replacing Holden even it was over time. How about we try replacing California with the name New Victoria. We do it over time though say 20 yrs start of by saying New Victoria by california and slowly over time dilute California until New Victoria is just the name see how everyone there would accept that.
You have to honestly need to understand the Australian and culture and way of life to really understand why Australians would not like this.
You say Holden would be harder to make a Global product then chevy, I think your totally wrong Asia/Oceania is the biggest Car market in the world and would say Holden has a better name through out that market then chevrolet.
I know chevys are being sold in europe but what are Gm’s biggest brands there certainly not chevrolet while we are replacing Holden with chevy why don’t we just replace Opel and Vauxhal with chvy as well. You have as much chance of that being accepted and you would having chevy replacing Holden.
But going by your responses to other peoples comments you seem to think your 100% right and everyone else including all us Aussies are wrong.
Honestly, I think they’d have a BETTER chance at renaming Opel&Vauxhall to Chev than Holden.
@holdenforever – not a matter of wrong — it’s a matter of an opinion. GM Authority comments are open — so we value everyone’s opinions equally and are huge supporters of free speech… unlike other websites that will “ban” you for going against the flow. Yes, I believe that my proposed strategy will be more effective and successful in the long-term for GM than keeping Holden around. I’ve mentioned the reasons in my article — not sure if I need to repeat it here.
To your comment: let’s not go overboard here. Renaming a state is not the same as doing the same to a brand! Not even close. Brands are meant to be changed, manipulated, expanded, and exploited (in the business sense). Brands are how businesses, well, do business! A government, on the other hand, is completely the opposite. I can extoll many differences between the two — even though companies, brands, and governments do share a few similarities. But that’s not the pont. The fact is that renaming California is far and away not the same thing as renaming a brand… even a brand with such a loyal audience and customer base as Holden.
As for Asia/Oceania being the biggest automotive market – you’ve basically bagged two utterly different markets here. It’s Asia as a single market (where Holden is non-existent, but Chevrolet is). Oceania is another market. If I combine North and South America, I can also end up with the world’s biggest auto market… so let’s keep it accurate for the sake of our discussion.
Even so, you’d have to rebrand Chevy across every single country in the world as a Holden if we were to follow your strategy; or we could rebrand Holden as Chevy in two major markets — Australia and New Zealand (with some small markets left over). Which one makes more sense?
And yes — you’re right in saying that Chevy isn’t GM’s most popular brand in Europe. But it may be soon: it’s now finally getting competitive vehicles (not rebadged Daewoos) — part of GM’s long-term plan of making Chevy global (or at least competitive in Europe). And yes, Opel/Vauxhall currently compete in the same market segments as Chevy in Europe (and even China). This, however, will change soon enough. Heck, Chevy could be the mainstream brand it is today, while Opel/Vauxhall could be the Kia of the Hyundai family (more expressive, aggressive, sporty, and fun). I wonder if the same could be done with Chevy and Holden in Australia…
i’m getting my old 3030 off the wall now and cleaning her up last time she was fired was in 1945.
Beryl has got the FX ute out of shed and is ready to barricade the street on my word.
You can take my wife, root my dog but hands off Holden and my VB bloody poofta..
I see your points, and there are good ones. but although you state that you understand the link between Australians an Holdens, I believe you underestimate it immensely. I personally think that removing the Holden brand, be it immediate or over a long period, would be a mistake.
When you have a brand of such strength and loyalty – a brand that customers will literally start brawls to defend, Why would you remove it? Just so you can have a global advertising strategy? What a waste.
The comparison with Linksys/Cisco is interesting, but mute – Linksys never had the benefit of a fiercely loyal customer base, and Cisco already had a good reputation in the field – unlike Chevrolet which is a severely damaged brand here in Australia.
Maybe Chevrolet in Australia is a good idea – Possibly as a niche camaro/corvette brand, or maybe Holden should go back to selling Opel small vehicles and Chevrolet could come in underneath as the entry brand (but then that kind of defeats the point of Holden being the ‘Aussie battlers’ car). I don’t really know the answer, but sacrificing the lion to bring the bowtie really seems like a stupid move.
Fair enough. I think that what you propose is interesting. I’m beginning to realize that there seems to be room for two mainstream automakers under the same parent company. For example – Hyundai and Kia.
Hyundai is the mainstream Toyota/Honda fighter (Chevy fighter in the States). Kia is the younger, more expressive, more aggressive brand that uses the same overall architectures and platforms. Could the former be Chevy while the latter be Holden (with Opel vehicles?).
Given my experience in working for US multinationals, I expect your contention would have been considered several times previously … and obviously rejected.
And I expect the strategists will keep rolling this out of the shed every now and then.
Acknowledge that the position might have changed now with market leadership relinquished, and greater exposure to imports.
However, local market research would most likely show substantial strength in the Holden brand, and a significant consumer backlash if diluted.
In my opinion, the branding approach of Chevrolet by GM, Holden by GM, Vauxhall by GM, etc has greater credibility if a global branding strategy was adopted. It achieves global branding but maintains local market allegiances.
This approach might mean the Chevrolet brand needs a bit of tampering, with Holden already there.
Ross — interesting suggestion. As far as I understand, GM wants to keep its name out of its brands as much as possible due to the infamous bankruptcy and subsequent tarnished image. The “by GM” part was pretty much the strategy when the GM badges of excellence were present on all of The General’s cars… but I don’t think it was as pronounced as you are suggesting.
That said, it’s obvious (especially after the comments seen here) that the Holden brand holds significant market strength; I wonder if the two could co-exist (and carry different product lines) for some time; Chevy could be Chevy with its global vehicle range, while Holden could have its current bread-and-butter Commodore and Statesman (their specialty) while carrying a range of Opel vehicles.
Also, amongst my numerous spelling and grammer errors in the previous posts, I forgot to make my last point.
You mentioned “I’d love to see the goodwill towards Holden be translated into Chevy in Australia”. Unless Australia literally becomes the lost state of the United States, That won’t happen. A Major part of the goodwill perception of Holden is that it’s considered Australian (even though it is well known to be owned by GM)… “Football, Meat pies, Kangaroos and Holden cars”. Yes it’s a re-jig of a chevrolet ad, the patriotism still stands – because Australians are a lot like Americans, and the sort of blind-raging love (example: “Chevrolet, I will not touch one with a 10 foot pole, LEAVE HOLDEN ALONE!!”) won’t transfer to an off-shore brand. You may think that it’s worth sacrificing for the global-brand strategy. I don’t think many people, including GM, agree with you.
On another note… I’m sure this blog got a nice spike of hits with this controversy!!
I think it more likely the author of this suggestion is replaced by someone who knows what they are talking about, rather than Holden being replaced by Chevrolet in the AUS/NZL markets.
I think you can see the type of backlash that would be felt by GM if they were to even consider changing the branding of Holden in Australia to Chevrolet.
It was merely put forward by you in an obscure blog not known to many and has already sparked fierce debate with the general consensus being that it would be an atrocious idea.
I think a re-think by you and perhaps acknowledgement that it would not sit well with the Australian marketplace would be appropriate.
If you continue to contend that this would be a “step forward” for GM and not in any way impact on their earnings is naive to say the least. You have contended that you are a man of the world, pointing towards the fact that you spent some time in Russia as evidence that you are not a parochial American, truly does not reflect your understanding of at least the Australian national psyche, for which Holden is a massive part.
Rescind your statement, indicate that you were wrong and we can all move on.
Luke — what would you like me to rescind, exactly? You do realize that the article we’re all discussing here is an opinion… hence, it’s part of the Opinion Desk series. This is where my American parochialism would kick and tell you that I live in a country where free speech is highly valued… but I won’t do go there.
Now, it’s obvious that Holden is as dear to the Australian marketplace as life. However, I still believe that having Chevy in Australia would be best for GM — especially in the long run. Maybe Chevy should not replace Holden — but this needs to digested before there is any kind of statement — rescinding or not.
Did you proof read your article? I dont think you will find any one in this forum that will side with your rediculous abstract view of a united brand in such a unique and passionate automotive sales environment. You really need to do some homework and look at some stats and figures before getting on the eyboard. the Australian market is dominated by more than 90% of imported vehicles. There is so much selection hear that you can have almost anything you want! Interestingly, Holden ranks very high againt the cheap imports and luxury cars. Somthing Chevy cannot accomplish in its own markets. It goes to say that allthough there are a lot less of us down under, we still prefer to purchase aussie made. Why? because it a bloody Holden and its bloody Aussie and it makes us feel connected and passionate about being Australian. I cant speek for Chevy fans but in my opinion they dont gave the rich culture that we display.
I pray that the yanks (puppet masters) never lose sight of this fact. I will never by an aussies built or designed car that shows a bowtie. I think most of the people herein would agree. Also on another note, do you think that the Camaro was not branded holden in the states because they needed a ‘pump up’ to their own brand because it has been failing for so long? Why is Holden not being recognised abroad. The vauxhall R8 got outstanding reviews, “Downunder Thunder”. where is the Holden badge?
Alex, you really have to think before going and upsetting all the holden diehards, you must now understand the passion we have for our cars.
Take it easy on us! The yanks have us by the balls allready and were allready far to tied to them.
Keep it real
AG — did I proof read the article? Well, if you want to take the conversation in that direction, then yes — I did…
That’s why there’s isn’t a single grammatical error in the post! But I can point a few out in your comment:
“dont”, “Somthing”, “there is so much selection here”, “because it a bloody Holden”, “cant”… need I go on?
Hey, it was your choice to steer the conversation in that direction… not mine. And I don’t mean that in a crude or mean way at all — so pardon my tone if it came out that way.
Now that we have the petty stuff out of the way, le’s get to the real topic at hand: you make a good point that national roots are a huge bond to break (my words). This is true — and I don’t intend to argue that.
So let’s talk about Chevy: it’s undergoing a serious global revamp. Within the next two years, it will have received a totally new product portfolio and will have unified models across the Americas, Asia, and Europe! So when you refer to Chevrolet as not being able to do this or do that (as opposed to the competition), you have to keep in mind that it’s a work in progress… a work that began only recently.
You’re right, however, in saying that the national bond between Holden and Australia is much stronger than that between Chevy and the U.S. In fact, it’s sometimes disheartening to see that so many Americans don’t seem to care about Chevy (of Ford, for that matter).
As for me needing to “do my homework” and needing “to think”– I agree this is important… and I think I’ve done plenty herein. I am expressing an opinion — and am looking for feedback, of which I’ve (obviously) received a mouthful in these comments. The strategy I’ve outlined in the article took its fare share of time and effort to create… and then even more time and effort to put into words. To me, that’s homework and thinking! I don’t need proof to know that Holden is a beloved brand in Australia; I’ve mentioned that much in the article.
Lastly, I’m not afraid of push-back or a heated discussion. So if you think that I will crawl under the table and write an article about how much I think Holden needs to stay in Australia as a silo brand — while believing completely the opposite deep in side my heart — then you’re dead wrong. To a certain extent, this is what opinions are all about. It’s a matter of who decided to express them that makes the difference! To me, that’s keeping it real! 🙂
The only reason I can think for your stupidity in making this silly suggestion is that you have been smoking crack! Get a real job and leave Holden alone you wanker. And for the record it pains me to see any Holden badge on the Korean econoboxes you call Chevrolets. The new Australian built Cruze is excepted, but Captiva, Barina and Epica are all pieces of Daewoo shit and covering them up with a Chev or Holden badge does neither brand any justice whatsoever. The new Malibu looks like a grandpa’s car, leave it in the states and long live the Commodore V8
Real job: check
Leave Holden alone: nope
Crack pipe: nope
Chevrolet = Daewoo econoboxes: nope — get your facts checked… Daewoo is done with. The Daewoo team now assists in the global development of GM vehicles (mostly Chevys).
Now let’s turn to your hatred of Daewoo/Chevrolet and your self-proclaimed “econobox” label:
1. The Epica will soon be gone
2. The Captiva is what, the 3rd best-selling CUV in Australia? So it’s successful in its own right.
3. You seem to like the Cruze. I’ll let that one slide.
4. Have you seen the new Sonic/Aveo/Barina Spark?
5. How about the Camaro?
6. Have you drive the Corvette?
7. Have you even seen a Volt?
Let’s leave it at this: Chevy’s new lineup is one of the best on the market… if not the best. I would know — I’ve driven all of them. Have you? And right before you reply by saying that I haven’t driven Holdens — I have… since they’re mostly Chevys anyway. I’ve driven the G8 — which is the Commodore. The only Holdens I haven’t driven are the Statesman and Ute.
So shove that in your crack pipe while you’re at the unemployment office looking for a job for yourself.
(Honestly, you don’t need to call people stupid due to a difference in opinion.)
As I am not a Holden Man, I consulted some of my work colleagues who are. I asked them to a) calm down b) spend a few hours trying to come up with an equivalent example of what this change would feel like if inflicted on a US populace. Here’s what they came up with:
” Imagine if the 6pm news tonight in the USA carried the lead-story that 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue ( aka “The White House” ) had been sold to the Bin Laden Family Construction Company.”
Gee, tell us how you really feel, lads !
Sometimes a brand-name transcends being just a brand for a business. Odd as it may seem to some, there are huge swathes of folk for whom Holden is more a statement about who they are than what they drive to work.
I can think of one automotive example that might convey the equivalent sentiment: Harley Davidson. Imagine the response to trying to change THAT name ( or infact go back to the history books and see what happened to the machines and the brand when AMR took over Harley and there was no ‘original family’ input. ).
Holden may only be iconic in a small area at the arse end of the world…..but is Chevy actually an icon anywhere? And, if it’s a matter of effective branding, you’d probably make better mileage world-wide out of ‘born and bred in the hottest, hardest continent on the planet’ ( Holden ) than ‘we’ve had 50 years experience in making cars that suck back 15 gallons to the mile, steer like the Queen Mary, look like they were styled by 5 year old rap gangsters and break if you look at them.”
I think that with this idea you’re trying to push the proverbial uphill with a pointy stick.
Taking the Holden brand from us would be like taking fast food from Americans – there would be a revolt !!!
Most of the cars you mention are Daewoo’s – Re brand it Chev and then take the credit . There is no way you will see us buy an aussie made product and with a chev badge stuck to it. We take your so called Chevs – (Daewoos) and then spend alot of money making them driveable… We engineered your hero car the camaro and then also purpose built your police cars which we here rave reviews about. I think the guys at Holden derseve to keep and be proud of it’s Australian culture.
But how is taking away the fast food industry the same as taking away Holden? One is an industry… the other is a brand. Sure, a deeply-rooted and admired brand.
Perhaps a better analogy would be taking the automotive industry from Australia? In that case, there may be a revolt, indeed.
And as for most Chevys being Daewoos — do your research. There’s no more Daewoo anymore; the Korean offices assist in the development of global vehicles… such as the Cruze, Sonic/Aveo/Barina Spark, Spark/Barina, and Malibu… among others. All of Chevy’s new global cars (such as the ones mentioned above) are best in class all over the world. And no, you don’t spend “alot of money making them driveable.” Have you driven a Cruze? Have you seen the new Malibu or Sonic/Barina Spark. Those are world-class products that kick their segment’s ass, plain and simple.
This is more from people whose understanding of brands and culture doesn’t extend out of their own country.
The Holden piece of myopia comes from the same logic as taking the one brand that has real American equity – Chevrolet – and re-badging a bunch of cheap, poorly credentialed cars Korean cars with this icon – burning its hard-earned credibility from this poorly research piece of strategy.
The Dudes from Detroit need to get on a plane out of their own country and see the rest of the world. It’ll save their shareholders a packet and will save the rest of the world having their cultural imperialism hoisted on it needlessly by poorly thought out pieces of strategy based on what works in Detroit.
Ahhh ! I finally took the author’s much-repeated hint and checked his bio. And now the joke is revealed. Alex openly confesses to being a Chevy-fanboy, his seminal experience having been off-roading it in a Chevy Blazer while growing up as a kid in Russia. Alex, you should have confessed to editorial bias at the outset – that was a once-proud principle of journalism, but perhaps not so much so in these Murdoch Days.
Quite why you’d pick a Chevy Blazer as the primo choice for Russian off-roading, I don’t know ( I know whereof I speak having married a Russian and lived, worked, travelled there ). I once had the chance to pilot a Humvee through the countryside there and that WAS fun – felt like shoving an A-10 Warthog around on wheels ( and consumed pretty much the same amount of fuel !)
So, Alex loves Chevy almost as much as many Aussies love Holden. The old rule of never engaging in debate about a man’s religion now comes to the fore. Neither Alex nor the Aussies are actually capable of hearing the others’ thoughts on this topic, let along changing each others’ minds.
Looks like you caught me! 🙂
I guess that bio is a bit outdated… but I love GM in general — along with all cars. Honestly, though, I don’t think I have a bias towards Chevy — but then again, I’ve never come into contact with a Holden wearing a Holden badge (although I’ve driven more than a few Pontiac G8s and GTOs). The article is much more a business-related piece rather than a sentimental “I like this brand so it should be all over the place” thing.
PS: The Blazer has been voted as the best vehicle for the brutal Russian roads (at that time) for a few years running when I lived there. It was my dad’s company car as well. It’s tough and durable and can take the beating of the weather and the unrefined roads.
PS: congrats on being married to a Russian 🙂
You, it pains me to say this, but American cars have a tarnished reputation. There’s no denying that. I find it funny that Americans don’t even want American cars and settle for Toyotas and Hondas. I find it even funnier when I see one the “good ole boys” riding around here with a Confederate flag or a Harley Davidson decal on their Nissan pick up truck. I will say this, but American GMs look a lot better than Holdens IMO. When I saw the Monaro come over here as a GTO, my first reaction was “Wow, is that the new Grand Prix!!?” that’s just my opinion on looks since someone mentioned that Detroit puts out cars that look like a 5 year old scribbled with a crayon. Now, finally I will say that Holden be be left alone. It’s nothing wrong with having Holden stay Holden. If they’re selling good and not causing GM to lose a profit, keep it as is!!
‘At a boy! That’s the way you take a heated yet constructed debate into a pissing contest. Good one!
WOW, some people can’t say anything sensible I see!!
Thanks Alex, it was a good one, however your condescencion just makes it all the more obvious how much of an arrogant pompous douchebag you really are. You see, although you think that when it comes to intellegence you’re the bees knees, youre fucken’ wrong. I was not trying to turn a ‘heated yet constructed debate into a pissing contest.’ (stupid sentence by the way), it’s just there is simply no point debating with such a stupid suggestion! I’m sure I spoke an behalf of many many Australians when I told you my first reaction to your ‘idea’, which was “Fuck Off!”, Soooo fuck off, mate (see what I did there, and before? I used the word mate to emphasise the fact that im Australian and you’re not, so leave our Holden alone). Pretty clever hey, now I’m winning the pissing contest!
Mate, us Australians love our Holdens okay. The fact is that for over 150years they have been building cars and engines that are perfect for the Australian conditions They might not be as high-tech or pretty as euro or jap cars, but they have it where it counts. Reliable engines, cheap parts, long life span, roomy, power, low revs at speed with plenty left for over taking. High torque, low revving @ 100kph motors, providing power to roomy, comfortable, and good looking cars are what we’ve needed and they have delivered.
And I simply don’t see Holden going away. It’s one of those pillars of General Motors that — in my opinion — will never die.
Long LIve The Lion
I just won the pissing contest!
Unless you have some more urine left in you that is. But I doubt it, you’re just full of shit.
One more thing, I really dont care about all those barina etc that you speak of, change them to Chev what ever, I really care about Commodore’s. Specifically that beautiful, rare, two door Commodore I drive called a Holden Monaro cv8 Z (yeah baby), I love her so much, no shit we actually have a bond, and I want her to to always be a Holden Monaro. I’m going to keep her for my whole life dude, cause she is going to be an absolute classic, a beatiful treasure, a gem of Australian car design.
Now if what you suggesting happens, in 20 – 30 years when I’m cruising in my car (if some emmission laws dont come in that make it illegal to drive cars like mine with her big, throaty, raw 6.0l v8 – im so scared of this happening) and somebody goes, “hey mate, what sort of car is that?”.
And then I reply with a proud smile, “It’s a Holden Monaro, cv8z mate.”
“Oh you mean a Chevrolet Camaro?”
See what I mean……. this cannot happen Alex.
Also, what about HSV? Please don’t tell me you would change that to CSV? Fuck you would, wouldn’t you?
No, No, No. This is so wrong. Can you please admit that you are way over your head it mate. Just end it now. Go do something else.
I’m not going to stoop to your level in discussing bodily excretions or calling people I’ve never even met supercilious names… mate. My suggestion, which works online and offline, is to contribute to the conversation with credible facts and thought-out suggestions/arguments.
That said, it’s more than obvious that your feelings are clouding your judgement of an obviously simple business decision. And you should give this follow-up article a read — it should make you feel better.
Everybody stop for a second. This is a discussion about automobiles, not who’s getting the last girl on Earth, so please quit with the vulgar language and verbal trashing. While this is a heated discussion, it should not be one that shows hatred towards people from one country to another. Heated arguments are good, just try not to let your personal feelings get in the way. Now, if we can continue……..
If there were a “like comment” button, I would be all over that right now. Looks like I’ll need to get on that! 🙂
Ah Alex…you’ve really opened a powder keg, haven’t you? As to me daring to offer advice to a opinionated journalist…why not? Isn’t that what you are doing with your piece about Holden? Tit for tat, mate. 🙂
I think people above summed up nicely how I was going to reply to you.
GM can brand the Daewoos any which way (I don’t really care in this respect) they want BUT, you see, in Australia they call them Holdens. FACT: Before the Daewoos were badged as Holdens they sold in pitiful numbers. Daewoo was even in the process of shutting up shop here. Once the Rampant Lion was placed on their arses and grills they started selling like hotcakes. Understand, Alex? It’s the Lion that sells, not the poofy bow tie. 🙂
Your provocative article has certainly raised the ire of many die-hard Holden fans. And, I suppose, it’s a good thing to be rankled in this way occasionally lest you become too complacent about the things you love. In this respect I commend your wordsmithing in getting the ball rolling, so to speak. However…the final decision rests with GM and, guess what? Holdens is Holdens and Chevs is Chevs and, that’s the way, uh-huh, uh-huh we like it, uh-huh, uh-huh….Ooopoh oooh oooh a oooh ooh oooh ooh ooh! (I’d poke my tongue out at this stage but that’d be pointless overkill, me thinks!). 🙂 😉
“Once the Rampant Lion was placed on their arses and grills they started selling like hotcakes.”
Interesting. Very interesting.
PS: I’m always one for a good (civil) discussion 🙂