Should Chevrolet Replace Holden In Australia, New Zealand?
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This article is part of the GM Authority Opinion Desk series, where you can see exactly what’s on the minds of the GM Authority crew.
Before you answer that, make sure you’ve considered the power and subsequent advantages that a global brand brings to the table. As I’ve discussed previously, one of the best examples of the superior nature of a global name can be seen in GM’s cross-town rival: Ford.
Making a brand available all over the world provides the ability to truly capitalize on the super power known as worldwide marketing by being able to create (social network) buzz about a brand and/or a specific vehicle. In fact, that’s exactly what The Blue Oval is doing with the all-new Focus: as people begin talking about Ford’s new global lineup of compact vehicles, everyone — no matter their location — can participate. A Focus buyer in Australia can discuss his or her experience with the car with someone considering the Focus in the United States… or Korea… or Zimbabwe.
There are, of course, other benefits to a global brand, such as the ability to create integrated advertising campaigns as well as a unified image for the brand — luxuries that General Motors currently can’t enjoy due to the brand and name dichotomy present in Chevrolet and Holden. For example, the next-gen Aveo — which will wear the Sonic nameplate in North America — will be known as the Barina in Oceania, although this may change sooner rather than later.
Now, for those who think I’m absolutely crazy to even suggest the replacement of Holden — a brand that’s been around since 1856 and has been owned by GM since 1931 — let me be extra clear: I’m not recommending that the Holden brand be expunged tomorrow and be immediately replaced by Chevrolet. Doing so may prove disastrous for both marques.
There are, however, tried and true methods of slowly migrating one brand into another that would leave only those living under a rock confused and dumbfounded about the changeup. Take, for example, the way computer networking giant Cisco handled the rebranding of Linksys after buying the home and small business router manufacturer in 2003. Cisco first introduced its brand to the public by renaming Linksys routers to Linksys by Cisco… and now — seven years after the decision was made to move away from the Linksys brand — the Linksys name is totally gone, having been replaced by Cisco altogether. Everyone knows what Cisco is… and most people know that the company had something to do with Linksys at some point or another.
So, while Holden may be working in Oceania for now, General Motors will find that keeping Holden around will put Chevrolet at an increased disadvantage compared to global brands such as Ford and Toyota as time goes on. As such, I would love to see Chevrolet (along with Buick and GMC) become completely global brands to the tunes of Ford, Toyota, BMW, and Lexus, among others. What about you?
This article is part of the GM Authority Opinion Desk series, where you can see exactly what’s on the minds of the GM Authority crew.
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The only problem is that Holden is a beloved brand in Australia, Chevrolett is a damaged one in the US, Maybee the Corvette should finally become a Cadillac and the Cruze and Manaro and such could be called Holdens worldwide, NASCAR would get used to it just like they got used to TOYOTA, maybee we could get some of that sweet V8 Supercar action stateside, with left and right turns and indepeneant rear suspention and everything.
Dear Alex,
You’re a tit.
Love
The Aussies
Excellent! The 5th item on my bucket list has been fulfilled in my transformation to a tit. Time to cross it off with my very pink lipstick! 😉
Much better to rebrand GM as Holden. Don’t worry – I’m not thinking this should happen overnight, more like a Cisco/Linksys thing were the brand can be Chevrolet by Holden for a while until you get used to it. Most people should recall that Chevrolet used to exist.
Surely you realise that there are eight different GM brands listed on the menu bar of your website. GM have pursued the separate brands policy too far for the unification to work. Also, wouldn’t you choose to keep one of the brands that is not synonymous with a mutli billion dollar government bail out?
Why would you replace a brand name so loved and recognised in Australia for generations and generations. Chris had the better idea why dont we replace chevrolet with Holden..
Well, simply because Chevy is everywhere except for Oceania/Australia/NZ, etc. If Holden were to become global, it would be a lot more difficult to do. And I simply don’t see Chevy going away. It’s one of those pillars of General Motors that — in my opinion — will never die.
Loved and recognized? To what end?
Holden sales have dropped for for the last 4 years in a row. Mazda and Hyundai and Toyota sell more cars in Australia.
All that begs the question: is Holden truly loved and recognized as you say?
Because sales figures say that no one gives a shit about Holden, and would rather buy cars without a heritage in the country. Thoughts?
Mate, you’ve got absolutely no idea what happens outside of the US borders .. do you ?
Holden is, recognised by GM, as one of the, if not the, strongest brand in the GM stable. Just ask Mark Reuss. … you know who he is ?? And what GM business unit he was last in charge of ….. yeah Holden.
When Detroit can design a decent rear wheel drive car or a front end that doesn’t look like a 5 year old drew it with crayons, come back and talk again with your ideas of imposing banal US ideas on the rest of the world, including the Chevy bow tie … by then I would have been retired from Holden for 100 years
Nope, never heard of Reuss. Who is he? 😉
I’m more than familiar with the story behind Reuss and Holden. And as I’ve stated in previous comments — I’m not from “within” U.S. borders, having lived most of my life in Europe. So a global perspective is something on which I pride myself.
So here’s my question to you, mate: would you call the Holden Cruze, Holden Barina, Holden Barina Spark, and Holden Captiva 5 and 7 as “banal US ideas”? If you would, do you realize that every single one of those cars is a Chevrolet (or Saturn) — which means that you Holden loyalists buy Chevys by the boatload every day? Sure, they may be assembled locally… but they’re still Chevys everywhere else in the world.
You do realize that up until the VE Commodore, Holden’s were entirely rebadged from other parts of the world? Either Opel’s, Daewoos, or yes, American Chevrolets. And you do realize, of course, that General Motors North America made “decent” world-beating RWD vehicles for decades while Holden was just the importer/rebadging firm in Australia for GM Worldwide. And you do realize that General Motors North America designed the Sigma platform, which is superior in every quantifiable way to the Zeta platform, and is hard at work bringing the Alpha platform to market, which will likely replace the Zeta platform by the end of the decade.
Oh, and as a sidenote, the Ford Falcon is getting replaced with either a Ford Taurus, or a Ford Mustang sedan. Designed in the United States.
How does that make you feel?
A Marquee is a tent. What you may mean is a Marque.
And while I am making a comment here…………
LEAVE THE HOLDEN BRAND NAME AS IT IS!!!!!!
Thanks! Fixed!
Personally, you give me the Camaro and you can put whatever badge you like on it. As it currently stands, we can get a LHD imported from the US and then expect to pay anywhere from 70-100K above US purchase price for a RHD conversion. A sad state of affairs for a car with a lot of roots in Australia 🙁 Perhaps it should be renamed the Holden Camaro?
The biggest problem with the Chevrolet brand is that in this part of the world they’re synonymous with “gas” guzzling “yank” tanks, whilst the Holden brand is synonymous with home-grown (petrol guzzling land-barges).
Using Cisco as a reference may not have been a great example, they generally produce massively overpriced, mediocre products 😉
Lastly, aren’t GM’s sold under a different brand in the UK/Europe? My knowledge may be outdated, it’s been a while since I was last there, but I’m certain that was the case back then.
You are kidding, right? Americans, whom I normally admire, sometimes make me giggle a bit with their insular knowledge of what happens in other parts of the world.
Alex…let me elucidate you: Holden is probably the most recognised and beloved automotive brand in Australia. Over here the brand generates fierce familial loyalty…almost tribal in nature…compared to loyal Ford followers, seen as the “enemy”. Fathers will pass their love for Holdens on to their kids in an unbroken family line…the loyalty and love for the brand is that strong! To suggest that the Chevy bow tie replace the iconic “Lion Rampant with rolling stone” Holden badge is, quite frankly, just nuts!
Chevies WERE sold here up until the late sixties and they were sold as a “luxury” alternative to the local Holden Premiers, Broughams and Statesmans. But they FLOPPED badly because they were seen as overweight blubber cars with huge fuel consumption compared to the sensibly-sized and well powered Holden sixes and small black V8s. And, to be quite frank, your Chevies are shiite compared to our Holdens.
Not only is the Commodore better-assembled than your Chevies, not only does it have better handling and better overall design, the Holden Commodore, ironically badged as a “Chevrolet Lumina” in the Arabic world and South America, outsells your local American product hand over fist. The Arabs buy the Statesman and Lumina in bucketloads because they know the cars are built well, built tough and will survive the searing desert heat precisely because they know these cars are actually rebadged Holdens, which come from a hot climate.
Back in the late sixties a member of the Saudi Royal family visited Australia and one of the main aims of his visit was to buy an HD Holden Premier Station wagon for his family. Holdens had a tremendous reliability reputation in Saudi Arabia and he wanted that precise car. Well, unfortunately for him, Holden was well into the local “HK” series and couldn’t provide the Royal prince with the car that he wanted, as it was an old model. So, to save face and to keep the gentleman happy, a Holden representative found a second-hand car of the type the Prince wanted with very low mileage and had the Holden line mechanics and engineers re-engine, re-build, re-paint and re-trim the car from the ground up and they added a Smith’s air-con unit for the Prince as well. He was thrilled to bits and sent the car home immediately.
And you want us to call our cars Chevies??? Bah! Tell you what, howsabout YOU call Chevies Holdens! The Chevy brandplarte is so sullied right now that the change might do GM some good! 🙂
Tom — nice try — but I’m not American (even though I do live in the U.S). Perhaps a trip to our “About” page would help? Now, let’s get to the point:
Are you sure about this? Every single Holden IS a Chevy (or Saturn) — except for two (Commodore and Statesman). Have you driven and/or seen a Chevy recently? I’m sure you have — since the Cruze, Barina, Barina Spark, and (the upcoming) Malibu are all Chevys badged as Holdens. Sure, some may be built locally, but to say that locally-built vehicles are assembled better is pure nonsense. Give me some data!
Nice try??? I’m not “trying” anything…I noticed you conveniently skirted around the brand loyalty issue and went on to pontificate about Holden’s imports. You need to change jobs and become a politician! You must be a Pom!
Here’s what you need to do, mate. Ring Mark Reuss and ask him about the Elizabeth plant’s (where Commodores are made) build quality and then compare the data to other plants in the US. I can’t access the data being an “average Joe Blow” off the street but you can, with your GM contacts. I have a good connection in management and I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that Holden’s build quality is second to none in the GM empire and Holden, unlike Chevy, was one of the only GM brands to remain reasonably profitable during the GFC.
Now…let’s move on to your Camaro…who designed that, Alex…What was that? A bunch of Aussie HOLDEN engineers, was it ??? And who is it that has made Daewoo improve their body styles and their handling…not another Aussie Holden ex-pat, surely???
To finish off let me tell you what local GM bigwigs thought of your idea…The polite term was “nonsense”, as published in “The Age” newspaper. Privately? Decorum forbids me to post the invective used. Dream on…by all means offer your opinions but, mate, be prepared to fry for them because if you try and scuttle Holden you’ll have a massive fight on your hands. How’s that for BRAND LOYALTY?
You know, you seem to offer tons of advice for someone who you just met — ONLINE — yesterday.
Don’t worry — I’m not a politician. And the fact that I “conveniently skirted” the brand loyalty issue is a nonstarter. Have you read the comments preceding yours? Have you read my replies to them? I think I’ve mentioned it enough times already that there is absolutely no question that Holden is a strong brand… or at least that’s the case among enthusiasts such as yourself. I wonder, however, what a “normal” person would say in this matter… someone who’s not an enthusiast such as yourself (or myself).
As for the rest of your comment — you’re now the one “conveniently skirting” the issue, which is the fact that every Holden, save for those on the Zeta platform, is actually a Chevy everywhere else in the world! Barina Spark, Spark, Cruze, Captiva… and the Epica replacement — the Malibu (which may or may not be coming to Australia). So Holden is really made up of three uniquely distinctive vehicles: Commodore, Statesman, and Ute. Everything else is your hated “Chevy” or, even worse, Daewoo. Have you thought about this?
Now, let’s talk build quality. Whatever the case may be with the Elizabeth facilities, I don’t see how it’s relevant if what I’m offering is a simple nameplate switchover. The plant would continue running as is… but instead of the Holden badge, you’d see the bow tie. So I’m not sure I follow the point of bringing that up.
As for the opinions of “GM bigwigs” and various newspapers… good for them. Yes, I’m stating my opinion; and I’m still 100 percent behind it… but that does not mean that just because of a few opposing comments here and there, that I’m suddenly going to have a change of heart. Simply put, it’s not the job of a journalist to listen to corporate drivel. That said, I’m glad we could have this conversation, which I truthfully appreciate.
And yes — nice try! That was in reference to the following:
“You are kidding, right? Americans, whom I normally admire, sometimes make me giggle a bit with their insular knowledge of what happens in other parts of the world.”
I’m not American.
Wow Alex, you do have a lot to learn about the rest of the world don’t you? Change the Holden to Chevy and GM’s sales in Australia will plummet. Australians don’t like the American brands. Commonly referred to as ‘Yank Tanks’ most are despised. Yes there are a few ‘fanboy’s here who sport the Chevy badge but they are also despised as being of low intelligence.
As a matter of interest can you buy Ford Falcons there still. What about Ford Territorys or Ford Explorers. If these model names exist there I am confident that they do not refer to the same vehicles running around the streets of Australia.
How many Chevies sold in Europe last year? Or was a different brand name get used? If a unified brand name is so important why does the US still have Chevy, Buick, GMC & Cadillac? Surely they could all be marketed under the Chevy brand name? Do you know where the Buick G8 was made until a little while ago?
I think you might have clearly demonstrated how small the world you live in really is. Expand your horizons boy!!!
PS: I don’t think your a tit. Tits are interesting, sexy and fun to play with. I can’s see you being any of these
Well, Bernie, let’s start with this: I’ve probably been to AND lived in more places around the world than you have — so let’s not even go there and make assumptions about whether someone needs to “learn about the rest of the world.” Go ahead and read my bio on the About page.
Now — to answer you question — Chevy is GM’s mainstream global brand. It exists everywhere EXCEPT for Oceania. The situation with Buick, Opel/Vauxhall, and GMC is a bit shaky right now — but I think they will eventually turn Buick/Opel/Vauxhall into global brands as well. Caddy is on its way to becoming a global brand to the tune of BMW/Mercedes… And — Ford Falcons are going away as you know them. So are the Territories. The One Ford plan is kicking ass and taking names — and will eventually deliver a roundhouse kick to Chevrolet’s AND Holden’s faces that’s so hard that GM will be left picking up bodily pieces left and right. Being a GM enthusiast, it pains me to say that — but it’s true — and it’s already happening in the States, with Ford (2 brands) outselling GM (4 brands) by a wide margin. And as for the Buick G8 — Buick is undergoing a huge transformation right now and I don’t think that car will be around for much longer as a Buick.
Furthermore, what you seem to fail to realize is clearly stated in your sentence: “Change the Holden to Chevy and GM’s sales in Australia will plummet.” The key point here isn’t changing Holden to Chevy, it’s making the transition OVER TIME. It would be a gradual process by which consumers realize that Chevys are and/or were Holdens — and will have a different association with the brand than your regular American brand name (Ford).
I’m not even going to touch the “expand your horizons part.” I think you’re taking the piece personally — as a direct attack on your Australian roots… and that can’t be further from the point.
The Falcon will be turned into a Taurus, too.
U-S-A.
Precisely! So the Commodore range (and its siblings — Statesman and Ute) will be the only RWD sedans left. And I wonder how long that will last… and if there’s no RWD Commodore, then most of the commenters we see here will probably build their own (or buy a Camaro).
That said, the Commodore range is very successful — so it may not follow the demise of the RWD Falcon.
I believe that I can see where you are coming from, and the advantages that you list are quite real, but I think that there are issues that you have failed to consider.
The best example of rebranding of cars is that of Daewoo becoming Chevrolet, but there are key differences. Daewoo had existed as a car brand only since 1983, and was a market leader in few locations. In many cases, it had a negative image in the minds of consumers, which would take many years of improved product to rectify.
By rebranding as Chevrolet, this negative association could be reduced, allowing a positive image to form more rapidly amongst the public. There was little value in brand ‘Daewoo’, so the change had minimal cost in terms of brand equity, whilst still providing all the benefits that you cite.
As you acknowledge, Holden has a much longer history, but I think you underestimate the goodwill towards brand ‘Holden’. It is the second best selling brand in Australia, and probably the most front-of-mind for the public. Despite American ownership, it is felt to be Australian in a way that Ford and Toyota aren’t, despite their engineering and manufacturing presence.
A delicate rebrand as old products were replaced and the new models badged as Chev, would in itself be expensive, and take a decade or more. While it is not impossible, I cannot see GM sacrificing so much brand equity in the short-term.
Lachlan
P.S. Your thoughts on rebranding the Barina are more likely, but the Spark was just introduced here as “Barina Spark,” which suggests it has some value as a name.
Those are all great points Lachlan. It will, without a doubt, be a lengthy process that will need to be carried out with the utmost precision. The question at this point is whether the benefits outweigh the shortcomings of the procedure in the long term. I’d love to see the goodwill towards Holden be translated into Chevy in Australia.
We welcome Holden to be re-branded as long as we get the full range of chev products mainly those lovely pickup trucks and maybe the Camaro and Vettes
Well, that would be the whole idea! Most (if not all) Chevy products in North America make their way over to the countries in which Holden has been sold previously.
I am a lifelong Holden enthusiast / customer and wouldn’t even consider owning any other brand of car, but let me tell you this… If the Holden brand is replaced with Chevrolet I will not touch one with a 10 foot pole. I would sooner buy a Toyota!
LEAVE HOLDEN ALONE!!!
So you’d sooner buy a front wheel drive Toyota over a Chevy that’s the same exact car that has been sold under the Holden brand? The 2nd rule of marketing always prevails, I guess: after rational consumers make buying decisions, irrational consumers begin to make waves (or something to that effect).
The overwhelming majority of non-enthusiast Australian buyers are subscribers to a time-honoured view that American vehicles are ugly, cumbersome, badly engineered and sloppily assembled. A visitor from space exposed to Ford’s Australian marketing would assume that they were either a local concern or, failing that, European.
Right! So a slow, thought-out, and gradual transition from Holden to Chevy would make the most sense to change perceptions from the “ugly, cumbersome, and badly-engineered, and sloppily assembled” to whatever Holden is associated with.
You got noticed on an Australian car website:
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/change-holden-to-chevrolet-says-us-website-20110503-1e69h.html
Thanks 98! Appreciate the link!
Alex
(GM/ex-Holden staff disclaimer) – Alex, nice one for provocation! I’m sure the Aussies following GM Authority will tell you what they think of that idea. Not sure if Tom Barton and Bernie are Aussies, but they talked that way. As an Aussie and former Holden employee, I always get a laugh when this concept comes up but you’ve got to understand the link between the country and the Holden brand. You could supplement (eg Opel shortly) but not supplant Holden. Your suggestion that Holden = Chevrolet misses the point that the best selling car for the past 14 years has been the Holden Commodore, developed in Australia. Just my two cents. It’s a good discussion and cool to see the passion coming through.
Jason — I completely understand the cultural ties between Holden and Australia. Holden ≠ Chevrolet RIGHT NOW. My question, however, is whether that may happen at some point down the line. I don’t think it can be argued that, in the long term — GM, Chevrolet, and Holden will be at a massive disadvantage if the current dichotomy continues.
And regarding the Commodore — absolutely! It’s a great and fun car! I’m not calling for its discontinuation — lest I be named a commie 🙂
But, to me, it’s not that difficult to imagine the Chevy name slowly creeping up into the Holden Commodore name at one point or another.
Dear Alex,
Get Real! How would you like to hand the Oceania market to Ford along with all of
Holden’s exports to the rest of the World. Don’t be so Bloody USA Centric.
Have a bucketful of shame today.
Just another Aussie whose word does not matter!
Brian — you’ve figured me out! I’m a Ford fan in disguise — and I’ve been sent from space to give Ford Oceania! 🙂
Who told you?
Alex, you make the claim “I completely understand the cultural ties between Holden and Australia.” The mere fact you’ve made this suggestion shows that you DO NOT.
As one who is not a ‘Holden Man’ ( in fact, I’ve never owned a Holden, and the last one in the family was a 50th Anniversary Kingswood in around 1981 and it was a total dog…) I feel I can give you an objective insight into this.
Other commentators have remarked that when it comes to Ford and Holden the correct adjective is ‘tribal’. That’s an acute understatement. Across Australia it’s universally held that the answer you give to “Ford or Holden?” will tell your questioner everything they need to know about you. [ Though I will admit that the further Outback you head, the more likely the answer is to be “Toyota Landcruiser – the old ones; bloody unbreakable”.]
You seem to think the Chevy label has some brand-value Down Under. Perhaps for a small, small percentage in the ‘petrol-head’ variety, but for the vast majority Chevy reeks of a heritage of piss-poor design and awful business management. Current reality may be different but the perception is everything in marketing.
Searching for a way to describe how ‘Australia’ would react to this that you would understand. I thought of suggesting it would be like re-naming Texas to “Australia’s little outback”. But even that doesn’t get us where we need to go with this concept.
Try this: Australia has been the US’s most steadfast ally for over 50 years. We went into Vietnam and the Gulf with nary a murmur and we’re about the only country who’s going to tough it out to the end in Afghanistan.
If GM changes Holden to Chevy I think Australia will declare war on the US. Really.
I
Brian — I appreciate your comment. To reply, I’m going to quote you:
I do — in fact — understand the strong ties between one and the other. Whether you call it cultural, tribal, societal, or otherwise seems like a simple matter of word choice. Fact is, Aussies love their Holdens. Done deal.
You’re making a false assumption here. I do not think that Chevy has any kind of brand value in Australia (besides, perhaps, to those who rebadge their Holdens as Chevys on purpose and for the sake of being “cool” and “unique”). What I am recommending, however, is that equity in the Chevy name be built over time. So that in 20 years, people grow up associating Holden with Chevrolet. And once that reaches a satisfying level, there’d be no reason for the Holden marque any more.
That said, I appreciate your satirical war analogies. Right on!
Alex Luft
I would never buy a Holden rebranded as Chevy. Never.
Why? Because as soon as we loose the Holden Brand, everything will be forced upon us by Detroit and there will be no “aussie ” DNA in the vehicle. And by “everything” I mean the crap designs, the crap performance, the crap handling, the crap names.
You continue to shout from the roof tops about Holden Cruze, Holden Barina, Holden Barina Spark, and Holden Captiva 5 and 7 all being Chrevrolets. Get real, they are all Korean designs, with all the positives (ha!) that come with that. Definitely not something I’d be shouting about.
“As such, I would love to see Chevrolet (along with Buick and GMC) become completely global brands to the tunes of Ford, Toyota, BMW, and Lexus, among others. What about you?”
Your last point here is quite interesting, you wish to create a global brand for GM yet you allow Buick and GMC to remain, similarly you name Lexus, a Toyota offshoot as a global brand.
Ford is known as Ford Motors Company, Chevy is just a sub-brand of General Motors Company. Surely to create a truly global brand Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Holden, Cadillac, Opel and Vauxhall all need to be rebranded as General Motors, then you’d have a truly global brand to compete with Ford.
Alex,
First it’s Lachlan, not Brian. And, after all ‘What’s in a name?” is the whole point of this topic 🙂
As to the satirical war analogy, it wasn’t meant to be satirical. While Australia accepts HUGE amounts of American cultural influence there are some things that would just stick in the average Aussie’s throat. Even for non-Holden drivers the attempt at re-naming would be difficult to swallow. You mention a phase-out program of up to 20 years — did you not lok at your calendar and realise that would end in 2031…. the centenary of Holden? I wish you luck in retiring the name in THAT year ( or any other ).
I think most Aussies would be as likely to accept the replacement of Holden with ANY other name as they would accept the appointment of Axelrod as Captain of the Australian Cricket Team 🙂 Australia has had 20+ years of seeing it’s iconic brands sold overseas and eroded for example Arnott’s biscuits and Vegemite. I think if you put Holden on the endangered list it would be the straw that broke the camel’s back There’d be a whole lot of folks pulling Grandpa’s old Army .303 off the wall and manning the barricades !
It’s irrational, I openly admit, but then all ‘marketing’ and ‘product loyalty’ is. I’d suggest you best back away from this topic slowly and without further alarming the natives. On the list of Aussie wildlife to be treated with respect Great White Sharks and Box Jellyfish are as nothing compared to the mortal danger created by angering the ‘Commodore Crowd’ 🙂
Hey Lachlan – sorry about the name mixup — I was obviously looking at someone else’s name when I replied to your comment.
Again, I very much understand the legendary status of Holden. Here’s my question to you: do you think that, if Holden were (hypothetically, of course) to become “Holden by Chevrolet) tomorrow and continued on for 10-15-20 years until the Holden name being dropped altogether, that the “next generation” of drivers and car buyers would notice… or care? (there is a difference between those two, of course).
And yes, 2031 may not be the best time frame. I was just throwing it out as an example — not with any kind of accuracy.
That said, I won’t “back away from this topic” and will take all the heat needed. Just like you, I’m a strong believer 🙂